Link revisions

[Ricsi-viragosi]

It really doesn't. A thread can be easily made, that doesn't make him special.

And many wrongs don't do a right. Every composite was axed for the same reason they couldn't keep it.


But by all means, I'll make a revision for games in general if throwing any item they ever had at them at once is done without them being able to obtain those items in-verse at once.

But honestly, can't they? Is Spyro unable to go get those items for any non-gameechanic reason? Is there a reason while sonic can't just go collect them again if he needs them? Is there a reason why Crash can't get those items himself?

If there are, by all means, I'll make revisions for them, too.

 

[TriforcePower1]

It's not "many wrong make a right". It's just how we've always treated Game Characters (and iirc also comic ones).

If anything, I should be the one making a thread for why almost exclusively anime and mangas differentiate between volumes, but I know that's generally because the characters grow stronger and we can clearly see them through different arcs. That doesn't really happen most of the cases in videogames, hence why we don't separate them based on timeline but forms, which is simply easier and more concise. Just like a Link with 4 keys is more concise and canonically correct than having 19 profiles with almost the same stuff and treating them as different people.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

That is not a justifications, that's simply appealing to tradition. You give a set of equipment to a character they can't have at once, which is not something that should be allowed.

You think it's more correct, but I definitly disagree. Each game has a journey for link, showing how he gains his abilities and items. Those are perfectly reasonable places to divide keys in-between of.

On the other hand, making a general key for when he is yound and when he is old and acting like all of his reincarnation are all like that isn't. Then acting like all his items can be used at once is wrong too.

 

[Ionliosite]

TriforcePower and ZephyrosOmega are the ones making the most sense here. It's way more practical to have a single page for Link, who is canonically considered to be the same character, than have 19 pages that are basically the same, with most of them having the same abilties and scaling, and with only a few differences between them.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I didn't disagree with that.

I am simply saying that takin giving him items that he cannot use at once isn't something that can be done.

 

[Dienomite22]

Whoever is creating the profile should post a link to the page to give a visualization of what it will look like. It could clear up confusion.

 

[Ionliosite]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:ZephyrosOmega/sandbox

Is this an acceptable layout for his new page?

They posted one draft last month.

 

[TriforcePower1]

It's not appealing to tradition, it's just saying that there's a good reason for why we've been doing that for basically ever since the dawn of the wiki. As it is now, those characters aren't a composite, aren't considered as such and Link would be among them. If you have a problem with that, make a CRT for "Why every character profile who appeared for more than three separate pieces of fiction is wrong".

"A journey" you do realize that's just going to uselessly make them all the more redundant, since basically all of them except SS would basically just be "High 7-A for first bosses, High 6-A for late bosses, and whatever tier they are currently rated as". The 19 pages are already redundant enough.

Except, they kinda are? I think we've explained multiple times that all Links are basically identical in terms of tiers, with the only thing deciding which tier exactly being their equipment. It's way easier to show that in a single page anyway. And for the last thing, we are an indexing site first, a vs one later. How a certain thing can be used in VS threads shouldn't change how we make pages.

 

[Dienomite22]

Seems fine

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Then explain why it's a good reason. It's still misleading to just put multiple all items they can't have at once and act like they do have them. It's less about the VS part and more about mashing together things they don't have at once into one key.

There is also the fact that most characters with more than three games or such to them don't die and reincarnate in-between said games. I'm not saying to make a profile for each one, but taking things that are used by one game and applying it to a profile for Link in general is still wrong.

Anyhow, I'll be busy for today, and I do see why the page would be made like that, I just don't agree with it.

 

[The_Impress]

He isn't even definitively considered the same damn character, and even then, this 19-profile-composite Link doesn't even exist.

I'm sorry, this has next to no arguments in my opinion, and this looks like an excuse to wank the **** out of Link too.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We already agreed Composite Link needs to go, but the 13 canon are what we're discussing. I believe they should all stay for reasons I layed out in detail as it makes the scaling a lot easier to manage as well. Plus they're all different characters as mentioned above. The 5 non-canon characters are each their own thing, but the 19th/Composite getting removed would leave 18 left. 13 separated canon characters with 5 characters who came from non-canon spin offs.

 

[Dienomite22]

I would just make a back up of the current profiles and then see how this new profile is used. If it causes too much confusion, leads to wanking/downplaying, or causes some other problems then you could revert to the old format.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Deleting the individual Links isn't good imo, but I am not letting composite Link get deleted. This is a hill I'm 100% willing to die on.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Another problem is that there may be some revisions regarding the cosmology, which some may effect some profiles but not every other one. And if we have a single squeeze, cluttered page that contains information from every incarnation with multiple keys and those keys having some keys. Then there may be some merging and splittings of various keys. Plus the keys with sub keys often get confusing since certain abilities are mixed up. It's better to just edit the specific characters getting effected.

 

[AshenCrow777]

Deleting the individual Links isn't good imo, but I am not letting composite Link get deleted. This is a hill I'm 100% willing to die on.

You don't have to die brother, I have your back!

 

[TriforcePower1]

He isn't even definitively considered the same damn character, and even then, this 19-profile-composite Link doesn't even exist.

I'm sorry, this has next to no arguments in my opinion, and this looks like an excuse to wank the **** out of Link too.

Read the OP. I don't want to repeat myself

Nope, it's to avoid Link being treated differently than basically half the wiki. Not my fault if you don't like how we've handled most of the wiki's pages. If avoiding double standards, preventing repetition between 19 pages with a much more concise single page, treating Link closer to how canon portrays him is next to no argument, I don't think there's anything that could convince you, so I'll probably stop here.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

"Half the wiki", I don't think I know a single character that dies, reincarnatesas a different person with none of the memories (but same personality), and doesn't get a seperate key for their lives.

 

[TriforcePower1]

And I will openly admit that Link is a particular case, but I think I've already explained why Link is much closer to his videogames counterparts than, like, Avatar Aang or others.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Yes. But saying that the wiki does it differently isn't really true when any case where a character is like link that I can think of gives different keys for said reincarnation.

 

[TriforcePower1]

That's the thing. There's barely any character like Link, who's considered always the same person by both fans and creators, whose reincarnation only exists to make the series fit into a timeline instead of being a floating continuity like it was originally supposed to be (just to let this point sink, I'll mention how Link was confirmed to reincarnate only in SS, around 25 years after the start of the series), so we need to make him fit somewhere.

Again, I've already explained why Link falls much closer to the characters above. Do I really need to pull that Giorno reference about having to repeat myself?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Which makes you using other profiles to justify your submission rather pointless, doesn't it?

The reason Link has multiple reincarnation doesn't seem like something that really matters to me. Nor does it matter when he was stated to start reincarnating.

I had characters that die and ressurect as another person and said new people got new keys for them. They even had memories from their old self, let alone personality.


And Link doesn't really fall close lr to the game characters at all. None of them die and reincarnate, losing their memories in the process. There's also stuff like how some items behave somewhat differently, like that sword that makes copies of you.

 

[Bobsican]

Yeah, it was already discussed, "compositing" Link is an extreme no, if they are going to be mixed in one profile, each "Link" has to be separated like the profiles do.

TBH, this seems to be only so Composite Link can be used in an unofficial way and get matches added, if that's the case, then the above is to be done, as I don't really care for that regard.

 

[TriforcePower1]

As I said, no. Since Link is somewhat of a special case, we need to make him adhere to certain standards, and I've already explained why he falls under the same ones as every page I posted above.

You're right, the reason he has it is meaningless, it was mainly to show his somewhat special status, which you agreed he had.

Let me guess, those characters mostly come from a self contained story, who barely have any other key aside from that one, right? If we used that same thing with Link we would have a dozen of redundant keys, and I'm doing this exactly for removing that redundancy, just like all the above pages did.

And Link is close to those pages. He's a character from a series with multiple entries whose tier isn't based from which game he's in but by his form. He's basically identical, and you're using something not even Nintendo cares about to contradict it. Quoting the OP "Lastly, changing "Link (Composite)" into just "Link" or "Link (Spirit of the Hero)". I honestly prefer the first one because it's less confusing for those who aren't a fan of the series, even if the second one is technically more appropriate given that what this is, at the end, is effectively making a page for "The Spirit of the Hero" more than "decomposing" Link. It wouldn't count as a composite anyway since he's an actual character of the verse, and assuming otherwise is simply contradicting the lore."

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Could you stop bringing up the "Nintendo also says his one link"? As explained, they obviously do, that changes nothing here.

He is the same person reborn over and over,everyone gets that.

I'm saying that as he is a single character with an actual timeline, he has to be at some point in that timeline. The only profiles that don't take the characters at a certain point in time to write down their abilities are the ones that have no actual chronology to them like Mario.

Here you know what comes first and what comes after, so just taking a Link default is something I don't see the point of. And while that alone isn't wrong, I don't see how you can give him all the items he can obtain if you insist on not tying him down to the chronology of his adventures.

 

[TriforcePower1]

You do realize you're basically saying: "Who cares about canon?", right? "Let's create headcanons because those fit into our standards better than the actual canon of a series"

Mario is the only example I cited without a timeline. Kirby is somewhat arguable, but there are several elements implying that there is one. The other ones have one.

I'm not giving him all of his items at once. I'm dividing his equipment into tiers.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Could you point out what any of what I said has to do with headcanons? About disregarding Canon? You mean me telling you to stop citing the Nintendo thing, cuz I told you to stop that because it changes nothing at all since link still loses his memories and is reborn. Do you mean me pointing out that tiems can vary in their effects in-between games?

I genuinely don't understand what you meant by that. The only thing that wouldn't fit to a point in Canon is your suggestion, which just takes a standard of what Link grows into in each reincarnation, and then just throws in his equipment all at once when there's no point in canon where he has all of his items. Because you don't put things that physically can't be in one place at once into one key.

 

[TriforcePower1]

You talk about the reincarnation thing as a problem almost as if this weren't a page for the soul that reincarnates but a mashing of the different bodies said soul inhabited.

Also, that's not true, the above characters all have a ton of stuff they shouldn't have in a single key, but that's not the point as we're only trying to rate them with those items. A page can have equipment or abilities that may be even mutually exclusive for indexing purposes, like Crono having both the Guardian Helm and the Bird Katana despite the fact that in a single play through it's impossible to get both. Quoting Sera: "The exceptional nature of Pokémon comes from the fact that it's an RPG. Ashen One being a single character is irrelevant. The fact that we assume they'd have all potential power ups in Dark Souls 3 is what's important. The Ashen One profile is representative of the possibilities of the Dark Souls 3 protagonist, not just any one player's playthrough." In other words, you're too fixated with VS debates when making a page in an indexing site.