Lightning Feats Attack Potency and Durability

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Mr._Bambu @Therefir @DMUA @DemonGodMitchAubin @Wokistan @Armorchompy @Migue79 @Psychomaster35 @CloverDragon03 @Dark-Carioca @AbaddonTheDisappointment @Aguywhodoesthings @Damage3245

We would still appreciate some input here, so we are able to make some progress

https://vsbattles.com/threads/lightning-feats-attack-potency-and-durability.136835/post-4898638

 

[Jasonsith]

To simplify, here is my proposal:

(1) Stats
Include what KLOL and I have listed for real life electricity properties and data.

Maybe also add that electricity can go up to 90% speed of light in conductive metals.

(This is important for determining what proxies apply what speed)

(2) What electricity projectile is I wonder if the form of lightning should be considered.

If the "electricity projectile" exhibits properties of an electric dart, a taser projectile speed (50 m/s) should be applied.

If the electricity projectile exhibits mostly pure electricity properties but the whole casting does not exhibit lightning, the supersonic to hypersonic speed could be applied.
Also, if the electricity projectile is shown to travel as "slow" as a bullet (e.g. those cheesy cartoons), the supersonic to hypersonic speed could be applied as well.

If the said electric projectile is cosnidered lightning and exhibits properties of a leader strike, the 440,000 m/s speed should be applied.
To discuss: what is the minimum criteria for a lightning leader strike?

If the said electric projectile is cosnidered lightning and exhibits properties of a return stroke, the 100,000,000 m/s speed should be applied.
To discuss: what is the minimum criteria for a lightning return stroke?

If the said electric projectile can travel at conductive metals, said projectile while through "conductive metals" can be marked as 90% speed of light.

(3) "Possibly" proxies

To discuss: What KLOL says: Can characters be proxied to be lightning level by "verbal descriptions of degree of control over lightning and electricity".

(4) Attack potency

Generally agreed: real natural cloud-to-cloud lightning counts 1.6 gigajoules which is 0.38025 tons of TNT, and real natural cloud-to-ground lightning count half as much.

To discuss:
1. How tanking electricity accounts for durability? (Like, there are lucky real life individuals tanking real life lightning. They are likely not 9-A+ or even 8-C.)
2. Does one character which can cast a natural lightning strike from itself (e.g. a magician using a wand) have 9-A+ or 8-C AP?
(Now I think about it, that should be normally 9-A+ because that should be what a natural lightning would hit a grounded target.
Unless you want to say 9-A+ against grounded target, 8-C against a target airborne or near heavily charged environment)

 

[KLOL506]

If the said electric projectile can travel at conductive metals, said projectile while through "conductive metals" can be marked as 90% speed of light.

Oh yeah, there was a proposal for SoL electricity for travelling through conductive metals like wiring and stuff.

To discuss:
1. How tanking electricity accounts for durability? (Like, there are lucky real life individuals tanking real life lightning. They are likely not 9-A+ or even 8-C.)

Pretty much the three steps that were discussed above and accepted by DontTalkDT:

1. Needs to be in mid-air when tanking the bolt (Because the ground can dissipate that electricity safely)

2. Distance between the lightning bolt source and person getting hit needs to be melee range (Because the further lightning goes out, the more energy it loses because of colliding with other materials like air, trees, ground and whatnot, that's why the lightning's energy value gets nerfed when it hits the people on the ground)

3. (OPTIONAL): Having heavily-bruised skin, as that apparently lowers the human body's electrical resistance value. Less resistance, more energy from the bolt received.

2. Does one character which can cast a natural lightning strike from itself (e.g. a magician using a wand) have 9-A+ or 8-C AP?
(Now I think about it, that should be normally 9-A+ because that should be what a natural lightning would hit a grounded target.
Unless you want to say 9-A+ against grounded target, 8-C against a target airborne or near heavily charged environment)

Normally 9-A+ unless they can also control the cloud-to-cloud lightning first.

But if they hit a grounded target I doubt they'd get hit with that 9-A+ value because then the ground dissipates most of the energy before it can do any real damage.

As for having 8-C AP, that'd prolly depend if the wand can generate its own lightning without having to summon one from the clouds and then strike its foe mid-air within melee range distance (A meter or two).

 

[Randomlamdom]

Bumper

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here so far?

 

[KLOL506]

This:

Sure. These are the comments of most importance:



This is an extension of the above summary


And this was you tagging all the calc members.

This:

To simplify, here is my proposal:

(1) Stats
Include what KLOL and I have listed for real life electricity properties and data.

Maybe also add that electricity can go up to 90% speed of light in conductive metals.

(This is important for determining what proxies apply what speed)

(2) What electricity projectile is I wonder if the form of lightning should be considered.

If the "electricity projectile" exhibits properties of an electric dart, a taser projectile speed (50 m/s) should be applied.

If the electricity projectile exhibits mostly pure electricity properties but the whole casting does not exhibit lightning, the supersonic to hypersonic speed could be applied.
Also, if the electricity projectile is shown to travel as "slow" as a bullet (e.g. those cheesy cartoons), the supersonic to hypersonic speed could be applied as well.

If the said electric projectile is cosnidered lightning and exhibits properties of a leader strike, the 440,000 m/s speed should be applied.
To discuss: what is the minimum criteria for a lightning leader strike?

If the said electric projectile is cosnidered lightning and exhibits properties of a return stroke, the 100,000,000 m/s speed should be applied.
To discuss: what is the minimum criteria for a lightning return stroke?

If the said electric projectile can travel at conductive metals, said projectile while through "conductive metals" can be marked as 90% speed of light.

(3) "Possibly" proxies

To discuss: What KLOL says: Can characters be proxied to be lightning level by "verbal descriptions of degree of control over lightning and electricity".

(4) Attack potency

Generally agreed: real natural cloud-to-cloud lightning counts 1.6 gigajoules which is 0.38025 tons of TNT, and real natural cloud-to-ground lightning count half as much.

To discuss:
1. How tanking electricity accounts for durability? (Like, there are lucky real life individuals tanking real life lightning. They are likely not 9-A+ or even 8-C.)
2. Does one character which can cast a natural lightning strike from itself (e.g. a magician using a wand) have 9-A+ or 8-C AP?
(Now I think about it, that should be normally 9-A+ because that should be what a natural lightning would hit a grounded target.
Unless you want to say 9-A+ against grounded target, 8-C against a target airborne or near heavily charged environment)

And this:

Oh yeah, there was a proposal for SoL electricity for travelling through conductive metals like wiring and stuff.


Pretty much the three steps that were discussed above and accepted by DontTalkDT:

1. Needs to be in mid-air when tanking the bolt (Because the ground can dissipate that electricity safely)

2. Distance between the lightning bolt source and person getting hit needs to be melee range (Because the further lightning goes out, the more energy it loses because of colliding with other materials like air, trees, ground and whatnot, that's why the lightning's energy value gets nerfed when it hits the people on the ground)

3. (OPTIONAL): Having heavily-bruised skin, as that apparently lowers the human body's electrical resistance value. Less resistance, more energy from the bolt received.


Normally 9-A+ unless they can also control the cloud-to-cloud lightning first.

But if they hit a grounded target I doubt they'd get hit with that 9-A+ value because then the ground dissipates most of the energy before it can do any real damage.

As for having 8-C AP, that'd prolly depend if the wand can generate its own lightning without having to summon one from the clouds and then strike its foe mid-air within melee range distance (A meter or two).

Full context can be found by jumping to the replies above.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am not qualified to make calc group-related decisions.

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality

What do you think?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/lightning-feats-attack-potency-and-durability.136835/post-4939193

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am not qualified to make calc group-related decisions.

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality

What do you think?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/lightning-feats-attack-potency-and-durability.136835/post-4939193

You as well, @Executor_N0 .

 

[KLOL506]

Well, I am not qualified to make calc group-related decisions.

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality

What do you think?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/lightning-feats-attack-potency-and-durability.136835/post-4939193

IDK why you're tagging Ultima again tho, this really isn't his area of expertise.

Also I am condensing all the above into one small comment. Wait a bit.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Sorry about that then.

 

[KLOL506]

Conclusions that have been accepted:

1. Cloud-to-cloud lightning is 1.6 gigajoules (8-C). Cloud-to-Ground lightning is half that, 800 megajoules (9-A+)

2. The conditions required to scale to the full yield of the lightning bolt have been accepted as per DT's comments here and my comment here

Stuff that has yet to be determined:

1. Whether characters should be allowed to scale to the full value of the 1.6 gigajoule value when a character is shown to have complete mastery over lightning, have their characters be based on a heavy lightning motiff, have multiple MHS+ feats exceeding Mach 1283 (Since cloud-to-ground lightning is around that speed) and or are also able to fully transform into natural lightning and storm-ride clouds (Because they'd have no reason to hold back on their attacks at all)

2. Determining when an electricity blast is truly lightning based (And thus would wield the aforementioned 1.6 gigajoule value and Mach 1283 speed) on how much destruction it generates compared to what IRL lightning can achieve, whether its voltage/ampere/duration values are shown on-screen to be sufficient enough to match the aforementioned lightning energy values, whether the bolts can be fully channeled from the clouds into the person's body to then be shot as blasts (Which would imply full mastery over lightning, maybe)

3. Speed of electricity being 90% the speed of light via travelling through good-enough conducting materials like wires, metals, etc. which has been established through the above PDFs that Jasonsith mentioned

4. Determining what energy yield the character would yield if they just summoned lightning from the clouds without channeling it through themselves depending on which type of lightning we see.

5. Determining what energy yield the lightning blasts would be when shot from a magical weapon like a wand based on whether the wand also has full mastery over cloud-to-cloud lightning or just cloud-to-ground lightning assuming it fulfills the other conditions from Point 1.

6. Potentially higher usable speeds for cloud-to-cloud lightning than the Mach 1283 value we use for cloud-to-ground lightning

 

[Antvasima]

Conclusions that have been accepted:

1. Cloud-to-cloud lightning is 1.6 gigajoules (8-C). Cloud-to-Ground lightning is half that, 800 megajoules (9-A+)

2. The conditions required to scale to the full yield of the lightning bolt have been accepted as per DT's comments here and my comment here

Stuff that has yet to be determined:

1. Whether characters should be allowed to scale to the full value of the 1.6 gigajoule value when a character is shown to have complete mastery over lightning, have their characters be based on a heavy lightning motiff, have multiple MHS+ feats exceeding Mach 1283 (Since cloud-to-ground lightning is around that speed) and or are also able to fully transform into natural lightning and storm-ride clouds

2. Determining when an electricity blast is truly lightning based (And thus would wield the aforementioned 1.6 gigajoule value and Mach 1283 speed) on how much destruction it generates compared to what IRL lightning can achieve, whether its voltage/ampere/duration values are shown on-screen to be sufficient enough to match the aforementioned lightning energy values, whether the bolts can be fully channeled from the clouds into the person's body to then be shot as blasts (Which would imply full mastery over lightning, maybe)

3. Speed of electricity being 90% the speed of light via travelling through good-enough conducting materials like wires, metals, etc. which has been established through the above PDFs that Jasonsith mentioned

4. Determining what energy yield the character would yield if they just summoned lightning from the clouds without channeling it through themselves depending on which type of lightning we see.

5. Determining what energy yield the lightning blasts would be when shot from a magical weapon like a wand based on whether the wand also has full mastery over cloud-to-cloud lightning or just cloud-to-ground lightning assuming it fulfills the other conditions from Point 1.

6. Potentially higher usable speeds for cloud-to-cloud lightning than the Mach 1283 value we use for cloud-to-ground lightning

Okay. What do the rest of you think about this?

 

[KLOL506]

Okay. What do the rest of you think about this?

I have added some additional points after your comment. Sorry if they seem haphazard, just trying to fix up and add the points of discussion correctly.

 

[Antvasima]

I updated the quote.

 

[KLOL506]

I updated the quote.

Thank you.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.

 

[Randomlamdom]

Bumper, anyone have a plan to go on from here?
please don't let this die

 

[Jasonsith]

9-A+ cloud to ground lightning and 440,000 m/s speed accepted

Otherwise, on top of what said there:

Conclusions that have been accepted:

1. Cloud-to-cloud lightning is 1.6 gigajoules (8-C). Cloud-to-Ground lightning is half that, 800 megajoules (9-A+)

2. The conditions required to scale to the full yield of the lightning bolt have been accepted as per DT's comments here and my comment here

Stuff that has yet to be determined:

1. Whether characters should be allowed to scale to the full value of the 1.6 gigajoule value when a character is shown to have complete mastery over lightning, have their characters be based on a heavy lightning motiff, have multiple MHS+ feats exceeding Mach 1283 (Since cloud-to-ground lightning is around that speed) and or are also able to fully transform into natural lightning and storm-ride clouds

2. Determining when an electricity blast is truly lightning based (And thus would wield the aforementioned 1.6 gigajoule value and Mach 1283 speed) on how much destruction it generates compared to what IRL lightning can achieve, whether its voltage/ampere/duration values are shown on-screen to be sufficient enough to match the aforementioned lightning energy values, whether the bolts can be fully channeled from the clouds into the person's body to then be shot as blasts (Which would imply full mastery over lightning, maybe)

3. Speed of electricity being 90% the speed of light via travelling through good-enough conducting materials like wires, metals, etc. which has been established through the above PDFs that Jasonsith mentioned

4. Determining what energy yield the character would yield if they just summoned lightning from the clouds without channeling it through themselves depending on which type of lightning we see.

5. Determining what energy yield the lightning blasts would be when shot from a magical weapon like a wand based on whether the wand also has full mastery over cloud-to-cloud lightning or just cloud-to-ground lightning assuming it fulfills the other conditions from Point 1.

6. Potentially higher usable speeds for cloud-to-cloud lightning than the Mach 1283 value we use for cloud-to-ground lightning

Maybe one situation kind of debunk the concept of cloud-to-cloud lightning (or rather, restrains it to some very specific situation)
Since cloud-to-cloud lightning requires lightning shooting from one charged cloud to another charged cloud, what could be the actually fitting scenario? Keyword: charged. Not mid-air.
(even if we shoot lightning at objects mid-air, that said object should still be just normal objects except in mid air. Nothing suggest that the object is electrically charged - or so to justify that it behaves like another charged cloud)

So likely only 9-A+ unless such lightning shoots from two sources to create or make up for a cloud-to-cloud lightning effect.
Take it as a proposal to refrain from applying 8-C lightning unless under very very specific situation.

Nothing changes for the speed of genuine lightning. (except, of course, add more cases where "electric attacks" in different forms can be applied for different cases.

 

[KLOL506]

Maybe one situation kind of debunk the concept of cloud-to-cloud lightning (or rather, restrains it to some very specific situation)
Since cloud-to-cloud lightning requires lightning shooting from one charged cloud to another charged cloud, what could be the actually fitting scenario? Keyword: charged. Not mid-air.

So likely only 9-A+ unless such lightning shoots from two sources to create or make up for a cloud-to-cloud lightning effect.

That'd be limited to actual naturally-formed lightning tho.

 

[Jasonsith]

That'd be limited to actual naturally-formed lightning tho.

So when even natural cloud-to-cloud lightning is only 1.6 GJ and cloud-to-ground is only 800 MJ, so it is.

This aside, I am more concerned about how to differentiate different electricity attacks. My chart seems to include most forms of attacks that could emulate what we see in fiction.

 

[KLOL506]

So when even natural cloud-to-cloud lightning is only 1.6 GJ and cloud-to-ground is only 800 MJ, so it is.

This aside, I am more concerned about how to differentiate different electricity attacks. My chart seems to include most forms of attacks that could emulate what we see in fiction.

Really at this point the conditions highlighted out in the Lightning pages are things real electricity would do (Electrolysis, muscle contractions, flowing through conducting materials), but I guess it then falls down to either having the speed, the required voltage and amps, the AP value, electromagnetic field creation and/or creating nitrogen and ozone.

 

[Rikimarox2]

So, what I got from this thread is that Cloud to ground lightning now are viable?

Like if a character puts out his fist in a thunderstorm, and his fist gets struck by lightning, can we use the 0.8 gigajoule value, or should it be more direct?

 

[KLOL506]

So, what I got from this thread is that Cloud to ground lightning now are viable?

Like if a character puts out his fist in a thunderstorm, and his fist gets struck by lightning, can we use the 0.8 gigajoule value, or should it be more direct?

Nah, actual IRL lightning bolts are still off the charts because even those don't retain the full energy value from start to finish.

Very specific conditions need to be fulfilled to scale to the full 1.6 gigajoule value.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Oh.

Damn it.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the staff conclusions here so far?

 

[KLOL506]

So what are the staff conclusions here so far?

Same as before.

Conclusions that have been accepted:

1. Cloud-to-cloud lightning is 1.6 gigajoules (8-C). Cloud-to-Ground lightning is half that, 800 megajoules (9-A+)

2. The conditions required to scale to the full yield of the lightning bolt have been accepted as per DT's comments here and my comment here

Stuff that has yet to be determined:

1. Whether characters should be allowed to scale to the full value of the 1.6 gigajoule value when a character is shown to have complete mastery over lightning, have their characters be based on a heavy lightning motiff, have multiple MHS+ feats exceeding Mach 1283 (Since cloud-to-ground lightning is around that speed) and or are also able to fully transform into natural lightning and storm-ride clouds, etc. (Because they'd have no reason to hold back on their attacks at all)

2. Determining when an electricity blast is truly lightning based (And thus would wield the aforementioned 1.6 gigajoule value and Mach 1283 speed) on how much destruction it generates compared to what IRL lightning can achieve, whether its voltage/ampere/duration values are shown on-screen to be sufficient enough to match the aforementioned lightning energy values, whether the bolts can be fully channeled from the clouds into the person's body to then be shot as blasts (Which would imply full mastery over lightning, maybe)

3. Speed of electricity being 90% the speed of light via travelling through good-enough conducting materials like wires, metals, etc. which has been established through the above PDFs that Jasonsith mentioned

4. Determining what energy yield the character would yield if they just summoned lightning from the clouds without channeling it through themselves depending on which type of lightning we see.

5. Determining what energy yield the lightning blasts would be when shot from a magical weapon like a wand based on whether the wand also has full mastery over cloud-to-cloud lightning or just cloud-to-ground lightning assuming it fulfills the other conditions from Point 1.

6. Potentially higher usable speeds for cloud-to-cloud lightning than the Mach 1283 value we use for cloud-to-ground lightning

Some additional criteria would be how to determine and differentiate between actual lightning-based attacks and random electricity attacks in fiction.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the reply.

@DontTalkDT

Would you be willing to help us finish this thread please?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/lightning-feats-attack-potency-and-durability.136835/post-4977543

 

[KLOL506]

Some additional criteria would be how to determine and differentiate between actual lightning-based attacks and random electricity attacks in fiction.

This part however I'm not certain needs to be added on anymore, based on this comment I later made:

Really at this point the conditions highlighted out in the Lightning pages are things real electricity would do (Electrolysis, muscle contractions, flowing through conducting materials), but I guess it then falls down to either having the speed, the required voltage and amps, the AP value, electromagnetic field creation and/or creating nitrogen and ozone.

These are conditions that already exist in the Lightning Feats page.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[KLOL506]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

I will ask DontTalk again.

 

[Jasonsith]

Nah, actual IRL lightning bolts are still off the charts because even those don't retain the full energy value from start to finish.

Very specific conditions need to be fulfilled to scale to the full 1.6 gigajoule value.

In fact, IMO, the full 1.6 gigajoule lightning is not combat applicable or combat relevant at all.

Reasoning: Intra-cloud lightning happens completely inside the (thunder) cloud, jumping between different charge regions in the cloud. Cloud-to-cloud lightning occurs between two or more separate (thunder) clouds.

To utilise cloud-to-cloud lightning as an attack, one has to make sure that the target is also shooting lightning at the caster. But when this is the case, the full yield has to be divided between the two such that yield per person is divided into two anyway, just like cloud-to-ground lightning.

KOL-san summarises the other points agreed and in dispute.

Also, to add (not sure about applicability):

it can be possible lightning attacks that resemble return strokes other than leader strikes may actually scale from 1/3 speed of lightning or at most 100,000,000 m/s.

 

[KLOL506]

In fact, IMO, the full 1.6 gigajoule lightning is not combat applicable or combat relevant at all.

Reasoning: Intra-cloud lightning happens completely inside the (thunder) cloud, jumping between different charge regions in the cloud. Cloud-to-cloud lightning occurs between two or more separate (thunder) clouds.

To utilise cloud-to-cloud lightning as an attack, one has to make sure that the target is also shooting lightning at the caster. But when this is the case, the full yield has to be divided between the two such that yield per person is divided into two anyway, just like cloud-to-ground lightning.

Ye, nobody IRL would ever scale to lightning in any meaningful way or anywhere near either the 800 megajoule value or to the 1.6 gigajoule value at all.

But in fiction, those with complete mastery over lightning and other related powers have little reason to hold back on their bolt's power level, especially those who can even transform into actual lightning and then storm-ride clouds with ease and look like actual intra-cloud lightning.

Also, to add (not sure about applicability):

it can be possible lightning attacks that resemble return strokes other than leader strikes may actually scale from 1/3 speed of lightning or at most 100,000,000 m/s.

Hmmmmm, how do we determine whether it is a return stroke or not? Any usable visual cues?

 

[Jasonsith]

Ye, nobody IRL would ever scale to lightning in any meaningful way or anywhere near either the 800 megajoule value or to the 1.6 gigajoule value at all.

But in fiction, those with complete mastery over lightning and other related powers have little reason to hold back on their bolt's power level, especially those who can even transform into actual lightning and then storm-ride clouds with ease and look like actual intra-cloud lightning.

So is it safe to say anyone who can shoot real lightning gets at least 800 megajoule value AP
but those who actually can "transform into actual lightning and then storm-ride clouds" will get 1.6 gigajoule value?

Also, to add (not sure about applicability):
it can be possible lightning attacks that resemble return strokes other than leader strikes may actually scale from 1/3 speed of lightning or at most 100,000,000 m/s.

Hmmmmm, how do we determine whether it is a return stroke or not? Any usable visual cues?

For a brief explanation:

Ninja Gaiden: Thunder, Lightning, Electricity Galore - Naruto Forums: The first and best Hollie forum!

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To qualify as a return stroke in minimum, beside qualifying as lightning in the first place, the lightning strike must (1) travel as one "laser" in zig zag form rather than one pulse of "bullet", and (2) produce a thunder clapping sound or any sound that sounds like a thunder rather than just electric zapping.

(IMO Garuda's lightning (from my example given) is showing minimum requirements good enough to qualify as a return stroke - one zig-zag line with a "zzz pak" rather than just "zzz")

 

[KLOL506]

So is it safe to say anyone who can shoot real lightning gets at least 800 megajoule value AP

If they can only manipulate the cloud-to-ground version (Like summoning bolts from the cloud to the grounds), yes. They get 800 megajoules of AP.

but those who actually can "transform into actual lightning and then storm-ride clouds" will get 1.6 gigajoule value?

Or those who have complete mastery over all forms of lightning (Including both cloud-to-ground and cloud-to-cloud). Usually these characters also have the power to manipulate storms, the weather and such, and may also have the ability to manipulate magnetic fields as a byproduct of their lightning-based powers.

A good example for transforming into both cloud-to-cloud lightning (Via storm-riding clouds), cloud-to-ground lightning (Striking down onto the ground) and using lightning as a form of attack without holding back would be Electro from Marvel Comics (In mainstream comics, Thor, the literal God of Thunder, calls him as literally living as lightning, but then Thor banishes him into the sky to make him answer to the Norse God of Thunder).

The other examples of having full mastery over lightning without necessarily transforming into one would be the Greek Gods Zeus (The King of Olympus, master of lightning and literal king of the skies) and Poseidon in Greek Mythology (The God of Seas, Storms, Earthquakes, Tempests and Horses), and Thor (the God of Thunder) in Norse Mythology.

For a brief explanation:

Ninja Gaiden: Thunder, Lightning, Electricity Galore - Naruto Forums: The first and best Hollie forum!

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To qualify as a return stroke in minimum, beside qualifying as lightning in the first place, the lightning strike must (1) travel as one "laser" in zig zag form rather than one pulse of "bullet", and (2) produce a thunder clapping sound or any sound that sounds like a thunder rather than just electric zapping.

(IMO Garuda's lightning (from my example given) is showing minimum requirements good enough to qualify as a return stroke - one zig-zag line with a "zzz pak" rather than just "zzz")

A thunder-clapping sound, huh? Sounds neat, though I believe it'd be a bit problematic for media where you can't hear sound. Usually they'd show the thunder sound effects in words, but still something to be wary about.

Also, curious, but what would this "one pulse of bullet" look like?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Ok, to throw some more opinions in:

Stuff that has yet to be determined:

1. Whether characters should be allowed to scale to the full value of the 1.6 gigajoule value when a character is shown to have complete mastery over lightning, have their characters be based on a heavy lightning motiff, have multiple MHS+ feats exceeding Mach 1283 (Since cloud-to-ground lightning is around that speed) and or are also able to fully transform into natural lightning and storm-ride clouds (Because they'd have no reason to hold back on their attacks at all)

For all the first stuff, no. I see no reason those are AP indicators. For the transforming into natural lightning... like, if we're talking actual cloud-to-ground lightning then yes.

2. Determining when an electricity blast is truly lightning based (And thus would wield the aforementioned 1.6 gigajoule value and Mach 1283 speed) on how much destruction it generates compared to what IRL lightning can achieve, whether its voltage/ampere/duration values are shown on-screen to be sufficient enough to match the aforementioned lightning energy values, whether the bolts can be fully channeled from the clouds into the person's body to then be shot as blasts (Which would imply full mastery over lightning, maybe)

If the voltage, ampere and duration are shown you wouldn't need to scale, so that's a pointless criteria.

If you can scale its destruction use that to quantify its power. No point of using natural lightning either.

If you can channel actual cloud-to-ground lightning then you scale to its value, yes.

3. Speed of electricity being 90% the speed of light via travelling through good-enough conducting materials like wires, metals, etc. which has been established through the above PDFs that Jasonsith mentioned

Speed of electricity in conductors is probably the speed of light in the reference medium, yeah. Doesn't apply to non-conductors, though, just to be clear. Of course realistic electricity requirements are still needed. It might also take time for voltage to fully build up, which could be considered.

4. Determining what energy yield the character would yield if they just summoned lightning from the clouds without channeling it through themselves depending on which type of lightning we see.

If the call down cloud-to-ground lightning the real-life value may be used IMO.

5. Determining what energy yield the lightning blasts would be when shot from a magical weapon like a wand based on whether the wand also has full mastery over cloud-to-cloud lightning or just cloud-to-ground lightning assuming it fulfills the other conditions from Point 1.

If the wand has actually controlled real life cloud-to-ground lightning it has the corresponding AP. If not, then not.

6. Potentially higher usable speeds for cloud-to-cloud lightning than the Mach 1283 value we use for cloud-to-ground lightning

Let's just stick with the lightning speed we have. Usually you can't be sure where the lightning would have ended up in the end anyway.

 

[DontTalkDT]

For a brief explanation:

Ninja Gaiden: Thunder, Lightning, Electricity Galore - Naruto Forums: The first and best Hollie forum!

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To qualify as a return stroke in minimum, beside qualifying as lightning in the first place, the lightning strike must (1) travel as one "laser" in zig zag form rather than one pulse of "bullet", and (2) produce a thunder clapping sound or any sound that sounds like a thunder rather than just electric zapping.

(IMO Garuda's lightning (from my example given) is showing minimum requirements good enough to qualify as a return stroke - one zig-zag line with a "zzz pak" rather than just "zzz")

Disagree with those criteria. A return stroke is, as the name says, a stroke that returns after the initial lightning strike. For something to qualify as a return stroke first a channel would need to be established by a lightning leader striking the object and then the stroke would need to run from the object that was hit back to the source of the lightning through that channel.

Don't think anyone in fiction has a feat of that nature.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, DontTalk.

 

[KLOL506]

Ok, to throw some more opinions in:

For all the first stuff, no. I see no reason those are AP indicators.

Why wouldn't they be AP indicators when we are shown they have full mastery over all forms of lightning or having their entire character be based on the concept of lightning itself (Keep in mind that usually characters with full mastery over all forms of lightning also have weather manipulating capabilities)? That sounds very counterintuitive to me that they wouldn't scale to the full AP value. What reason would they have to hold back?

For the transforming into natural lightning... like, if we're talking actual cloud-to-ground lightning then yes.

What about characters who are then shown to be able to storm-ride clouds? Wouldn't they qualify for the cloud-to-cloud value?

If the voltage, ampere and duration are shown you wouldn't need to scale, so that's a pointless criteria.

Fair point.

If you can scale its destruction use that to quantify its power. No point of using natural lightning either.

Wouldn't one use said destruction as a valid point to scale it to or above natural lightning if it causes a destruction feat IRL lightning generally can't?

If you can channel actual cloud-to-ground lightning then you scale to its value, yes.

'Kay, but what about channeling the lightning from the clouds and manipulating it briefly before sending it crashing down at your own leisure? Wouldn't that imply control over cloud-to-cloud lightning as well?

Speed of electricity in conductors is probably the speed of light in the reference medium, yeah. Doesn't apply to non-conductors, though, just to be clear. Of course realistic electricity requirements are still needed. It might also take time for voltage to fully build up, which could be considered.

Ye, this would be through conductors only.

If the call down cloud-to-ground lightning the real-life value may be used IMO.

If the wand has actually controlled real life cloud-to-ground lightning it has the corresponding AP. If not, then not.

'Kay. And if it's shown to manipulate cloud-to-cloud as well for a while before manipulating it to strike down onto the ground?

Let's just stick with the lightning speed we have. Usually you can't be sure where the lightning would have ended up in the end anyway.

'Kay.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Why wouldn't they be AP indicators when we are shown they have full mastery over all forms of lightning or having their entire character be based on the concept of lightning itself? That sounds very counterintuitive to me.

Unless "all forms of lightning" explicitely includes cloud-to-ground lightning full control just is a matter of the range of applications. You can have control of real-life electricity, but only have it on the scale of manipulating a tesla coil. "Full mastery" is a matter of range of control, but not one of power.

What about characters who are then shown to be able to storm-ride clouds?

Storm ride? Like Goku with Nimbus or something? That sounds like a cloud manipulation feat that wouldn't relate to lightning at all.

Wouldn't one use said destruction as a valid point to scale it to or above natural lightning if it causes a destruction feat IRL lightning generally can't?

That depends on why? Like, it could just as easily serve as counter point to it being proper lightning. If you can show that it has caused greater destruction than real life lightning for the reason of having more energy then you can use it as AP. But that's basically tautological.

And if it's shown to manipulate cloud-to-cloud as well for a while before manipulating it to strike down onto the ground?

I guess it would probably be fine to scale to the full value then.