Lightning Feats Attack Potency and Durability

[KLOL506]

Unless "all forms of lightning" explicitely includes cloud-to-ground lightning full control just is a matter of the range of applications. You can have control of real-life electricity, but only have it on the scale of manipulating a tesla coil. "Full mastery" is a matter of range of control, but not one of power.

Of course it would have to include control over both cloud-to-ground lightning and cloud-to-cloud lightning first and foremost as a qualifier, show that you have control over both (Which it generally does for characters with such extreme feats). I don't know why you'd assume any different.

Storm ride? Like Goku with Nimbus or something? That sounds like a cloud manipulation feat that wouldn't relate to lightning at all.

Nah, you misunderstood, I meant transforming into lightning and travelling through the clouds as lightning.

Of course Goku riding on Nimbus is not him transforming into lightning or through storms really.

That depends on why? Like, it could just as easily serve as counter point to it being proper lightning. If you can show that it has caused greater destruction than real life lightning for the reason of having more energy then you can use it as AP. But that's basically tautological.

I mean, if it's shown to be all the real properties of electricity and have one or two properties of real lightning like screwing with magnetic fields and/or generating ozone, I don't see why not.

I guess it would probably be fine to scale to the full value then.

Aight.

 

[KLOL506]

As for the lightning motiff thing, lemme ask you a question.

Zeus is the literal king of skies and the god of lightning and thunder. Poseidon is the god of storms and tempests. Thor is the hammer-wielding God of lightning, thunder and storms in Norse Mythology. What makes you think they would not have complete control over these aspects of nature they govern?

 

[KLOL506]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

I will ask DontTalk to comment here again.

 

[Jasonsith]

As for the lightning motiff thing, lemme ask you a question.

Zeus is the literal king of skies and the god of lightning and thunder. Poseidon is the god of storms and tempests. Thor is the hammer-wielding God of lightning, thunder and storms in Norse Mythology. What makes you think they would not have complete control over these aspects of nature they govern?

Additional question:
Do these gods scale far higher than natural phenomena?

Disagree with those criteria. A return stroke is, as the name says, a stroke that returns after the initial lightning strike. For something to qualify as a return stroke first a channel would need to be established by a lightning leader striking the object and then the stroke would need to run from the object that was hit back to the source of the lightning through that channel.

Don't think anyone in fiction has a feat of that nature.

See.
What about a person who jumps onto a rooftop within the timeframe of a possible return stroke?

Example:

Fist of the North Star Assorted Feats

vsbattles.fandom.com

Will comment on your other points later.

 

[KLOL506]

Additional question:
Do these gods scale far higher than natural phenomena?

Usually they do, aye, I noted it down, but not all fictional representations of them have their storms scale to their physicals (For some reason).

 

[DontTalkDT]

Of course it would have to include control over both cloud-to-ground lightning and cloud-to-cloud lightning first and foremost as a qualifier, show that you have control over both (Which it generally does for characters with such extreme feats). I don't know why you'd assume any different.

If there is evidence for that, then yes. All depends on just how vaguely those statements are formulated.

Nah, you misunderstood, I meant transforming into lightning and travelling through the clouds as lightning.

Hmmmm.... unsure. Feels like turning into lightning is a strong point against the lightning being "scientific". I would probably like to see one or two more realistic properties of that lightning to assume that.

I mean, if it's shown to be all the real properties of electricity and have one or two properties of real lightning like screwing with magnetic fields and/or generating ozone, I don't see why not.

Idk. Expecting authors to depict damage realistically is a really big ask. Basically every feat is to some degree unrealistic, so every feat is technically doing something real-life lightning wouldn't. I guess if you can make a good argument that it does the thing different definitely due to more power than yes.

As for the lightning motiff thing, lemme ask you a question.

Zeus is the literal king of skies and the god of lightning and thunder. Poseidon is the god of storms and tempests. Thor is the hammer-wielding God of lightning, thunder and storms in Norse Mythology. What makes you think they would not have complete control over these aspects of nature they govern?

Having read enough fiction to know that these entities like to screw around with fake lightning as much as anyone else. They're ultimately also just magic, after all.

Consider what implication this would have for sun gods, for instance. Are you really comfortable with making random sun gods without feats Star level?

What about a person who jumps onto a rooftop within the timeframe of a possible return stroke?

Example:

Fist of the North Star Assorted Feats

vsbattles.fandom.com

I don't think the timeframe can be limited using return stroke velocity here. I mean, on one hand if it is the return stroke is questionable. But then the strokes last a certain time and there is a timeframe between the multiple return strokes. And between each return stroke is a dart leader of yet again different speed.

 

[KLOL506]

Hmmmm.... unsure. Feels like turning into lightning is a strong point against the lightning being "scientific". I would probably like to see one or two more realistic properties of that lightning to assume that.

I mean, they're literally turning into true lightning itself, which already gives them the speed criteria. At that point all they would need to show would be a bunch of criteria for real electricity, like muscle convulsions, electrolysis, ozone creation or electromagnetism manipulation and the like.

Idk. Expecting authors to depict damage realistically is a really big ask. Basically every feat is to some degree unrealistic, so every feat is technically doing something real-life lightning wouldn't. I guess if you can make a good argument that it does the thing different definitely due to more power than yes.

I mean, the examples I was going to mostly cover was how X lightning viciously damages buildings, causes cars to flip and all that stuff, which IRL lightning can't do.

Having read enough fiction to know that these entities like to screw around with fake lightning as much as anyone else.

You'd first have to prove that it's fake lightning tho, that they don't summon it from the clouds or whatnot.

They're ultimately also just magic, after all.

Kind of irrelevant to the topic at hand since a power source really shouldn't have much say at how powerful a lightning bolt is if it qualifies for the other IRL criteria.

Consider what implication this would have for sun gods, for instance. Are you really comfortable with making random sun gods without feats Star level?

I don't see what implications this would have over Sun Gods, since they're not usually the Sun itself but rather personifications of it (Unless stated otherwise that they're the Sun itself). It's not the same as weather gods who can manipulate the storms, the sky and all aspects of them to whatever they desire.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I mean, they're literally turning into true lightning itself, which already gives them the speed criteria. At that point all they would need to show would be a bunch of criteria for real electricity, like muscle convulsions, electrolysis, ozone creation or electromagnetism manipulation and the like.

It's always reasons in favor vs reasons against and if reasons against are added some more reasons in favor should be shown to compensate IMO.

I mean, the examples I was going to mostly cover was how X lightning viciously damages buildings, causes cars to flip and all that stuff, which IRL lightning can't do.

Guess that's probably fine.

You'd first have to prove that it's fake lightning tho, that they don't summon it from the clouds or whatnot.

It's not our default assumption that supernaturally produced lightning is realistic. Whether a lightning god produces the lightning or a lightning mage really makes no difference. Magic lightning is magic lightning until shown otherwise.

Kind of irrelevant to the topic at hand since a power source really shouldn't have much say at how powerful a lightning bolt is if it qualifies for the other IRL criteria.

A tesla coil meets all real-life criteria except the cloud-to-ground stuff and wouldn't qualify power-wise.

I don't see what implications this would have over Sun Gods, since they're not usually the Sun itself but rather personifications of it (Unless stated otherwise that they're the Sun itself). It's not the same as weather gods who can manipulate the storms, the sky and all aspects of them to whatever they desire.

That's big assumptions you're making there, about weather gods having any more control about weather than sun gods have over the sun.

If the god has feats of actually calling up an actual storm and shooting down actual lightning they can have the AP rating. Until then the title alone means nothing.

 

[KLOL506]

It's always reasons in favor vs reasons against and if reasons against are added some more reasons in favor should be shown to compensate IMO.

Hence, those other criteria.

It's not our default assumption that supernaturally produced lightning is realistic. Whether a lightning god produces the lightning or a lightning mage really makes no difference. Magic lightning is magic lightning until shown otherwise.

Disagree on this, this would just be blatantly denying their showcased feats at face value for arbitrary reasons especially if they showed firsthand via statements or feats that they can control lightning from the clouds and/or it shows some IRL properties of it.

A tesla coil meets all real-life criteria except the cloud-to-ground stuff and wouldn't qualify power-wise.

Not sure how a Tesla Coil fits here? Other than that it lacks the appropriate voltage and amps and may not even be lethal enough.

That's big assumptions you're making there, about weather gods having any more control about weather than sun gods have over the sun.

Depends on which verse you're talking about honestly.

If the god has feats of actually calling up an actual storm and shooting down actual lightning they can have the AP rating. Until then the title alone means nothing.

But that's the assumption I've already taken into account in advance. I am explicitly talking about said gods that have shown explicitly to have control over the aspects they represent, be it either via statements or feats.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, DontTalk.

 

[Jasonsith]

My stance:

Stuff that has yet to be determined:

1. Whether characters should be allowed to scale to the full value of the 1.6 gigajoule value when a character is shown to have complete mastery over lightning, have their characters be based on a heavy lightning motiff, have multiple MHS+ feats exceeding Mach 1283 (Since cloud-to-ground lightning is around that speed) and or are also able to fully transform into natural lightning and storm-ride clouds (Because they'd have no reason to hold back on their attacks at all)
DT: For all the first stuff, no. I see no reason those are AP indicators. For the transforming into natural lightning... like, if we're talking actual cloud-to-ground lightning then yes.
I agree with DT. Furthermore, the issue with characters attacking with 1.6 gigajoule is that the situation that gives rise to such value. Like when two clouds shoot lightning with each other, this will be one cloud to cloud lightning but there are already 2 casters which contributed to the 1.6 gigajoules yield, meaning each cloud only contributes 800 megajoules.

2. Determining when an electricity blast is truly lightning based (And thus would wield the aforementioned 1.6 gigajoule value and Mach 1283 speed) on how much destruction it generates compared to what IRL lightning can achieve, whether its voltage/ampere/duration values are shown on-screen to be sufficient enough to match the aforementioned lightning energy values, whether the bolts can be fully channeled from the clouds into the person's body to then be shot as blasts (Which would imply full mastery over lightning, maybe)

DT:
If the voltage, ampere and duration are shown you wouldn't need to scale, so that's a pointless criteria.
If you can scale its destruction use that to quantify its power. No point of using natural lightning either.
If you can channel actual cloud-to-ground lightning then you scale to its value, yes.
Fair point.

3. Speed of electricity being 90% the speed of light via travelling through good-enough conducting materials like wires, metals, etc. which has been established through the above PDFs that Jasonsith mentioned
Speed of electricity in conductors is probably the speed of light in the reference medium, yeah. Doesn't apply to non-conductors, though, just to be clear. Of course realistic electricity requirements are still needed. It might also take time for voltage to fully build up, which could be considered.

Agree that "Speed of electricity being 90% the speed of light via travelling through good-enough conducting materials" and "Doesn't apply to non-conductors".

4. Determining what energy yield the character would yield if they just summoned lightning from the clouds without channeling it through themselves depending on which type of lightning we see.
If the call down cloud-to-ground lightning the real-life value may be used IMO.
See.

5. Determining what energy yield the lightning blasts would be when shot from a magical weapon like a wand based on whether the wand also has full mastery over cloud-to-cloud lightning or just cloud-to-ground lightning assuming it fulfills the other conditions from Point 1.
DT: If the wand has actually controlled real life cloud-to-ground lightning it has the corresponding AP. If not, then not.
So still 800 megajoules AP and 440,000 m/s speed right?

6. Potentially higher usable speeds for cloud-to-cloud lightning than the Mach 1283 value we use for cloud-to-ground lightning

DT says we shall stick to the current standings, which I see why.
So shooting natural lightning is still 440000 m/s.





If fictional gods can shoot cloud to ground lightning then of course they still have at least 800 megajoules AP and 440000 m/s attack speed sure. Whether they scale far above that is up to examination just like on any other fiction.

 

[KLOL506]

My stance:

Stuff that has yet to be determined:

1. Whether characters should be allowed to scale to the full value of the 1.6 gigajoule value when a character is shown to have complete mastery over lightning, have their characters be based on a heavy lightning motiff, have multiple MHS+ feats exceeding Mach 1283 (Since cloud-to-ground lightning is around that speed) and or are also able to fully transform into natural lightning and storm-ride clouds (Because they'd have no reason to hold back on their attacks at all)
DT: For all the first stuff, no. I see no reason those are AP indicators. For the transforming into natural lightning... like, if we're talking actual cloud-to-ground lightning then yes.
I agree with DT. Furthermore, the issue with characters attacking with 1.6 gigajoule is that the situation that gives rise to such value. Like when two clouds shoot lightning with each other, this will be one cloud to cloud lightning but there are already 2 casters which contributed to the 1.6 gigajoules yield, meaning each cloud only contributes 800 megajoules.

What's with the "2 Casters" analogy? Also I replied to some of those arguments, maybe you should check those out as well?

If fictional gods can shoot cloud to ground lightning then of course they still have at least 800 megajoules AP and 440000 m/s attack speed sure. Whether they scale far above that is up to examination just like on any other fiction.

Chances are these gods will also demonstrate control over cloud-to-cloud lightning or can transform into lightning to then ride through the clouds and strike down once or twice for fun, a lot of them might even channel it from the clouds itself by swirling the clouds and whatnot to then charge it up into a bolt (Happens quite often in fiction).

 

[Antvasima]

So what are your conclusions here so far? Have you reached any agreements?

 

[KLOL506]

So what are your conclusions here so far? Have you reached any agreements?

Let's see.

Accepted stuff:

1. Cloud-to-cloud lightning is 1.6 gigajoules (8-C) and cloud-to-ground lightning is half that, 800 megajoules (9-A+)

2. Speed of electricity through good conductors is 90% speed of light. Of course, this would only scale if said characters are travelling through really good conductors of electricity, like electrical wires and whatnot.

3. Electricity feats doing feats of damage that IRL lightning can't do is fine to scale above natural lightning's AP here (8-C it was I think)

4. Channeling the energy of a cloud-to-ground lightning would cause the wielder to be 800 megajoules (9-A+). If they have shown proof they can also summon lightning directly from the clouds itself, that'd be 1.6 gigajoules (8-C)

Stuff that has yet to be determined:

1. Whether or not a character would scale to the full 1.6 gigajoule value, provided that they show feats of being able to straight up manipulate lightning from the clouds, manipulating storms en masse and channeling lightning from said storm clouds (They first have to show feats/have reliable statements that they can channel said lightning from the clouds directly and manipulate the lightning within the clouds to whatever they like), or they have shown feats to be able to straight up transform into natural lightning and then move through the clouds.

2. What tier we give to a character who can manipulate channel lightning directly from the clouds without making it crash down into the ground naturally

Stuff that has been rejected:

1. Different speeds of lightning depending upon the type of lightning stroke.

2. Determining when an electricity blast is truly lightning based (And thus would wield the aforementioned 1.6 gigajoule value and Mach 1283 speed) on how much destruction it generates compared to what IRL lightning can achieve, whether its voltage/ampere/duration values are shown on-screen to be sufficient enough to match the aforementioned lightning energy values, whether the bolts can be fully channeled from the clouds into the person's body to then be shot as blasts (Which would imply full mastery over lightning, maybe)

DT:
If you can scale its destruction use that to quantify its power. No point of using natural lightning either.

My response to this part was this.

I mean, the examples I was going to mostly cover was how X lightning viciously damages buildings, causes cars to flip and all that stuff, which IRL lightning can't do.

To which he then said...

Guess that's probably fine.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the explanations.

I suppose that we have to wait for a bit further input from @DontTalkDT then.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/lightning-feats-attack-potency-and-durability.136835/post-5080460

 

[Jasonsith]

Quick response:

Let's see.

1. Accepted stuff:

1.1. Cloud-to-cloud lightning is 1.6 gigajoules (8-C) and cloud-to-ground lightning is half that, 800 megajoules (9-A+)

1.2. Speed of electricity through good conductors is 90% speed of light. Of course, this would only scale if said characters are travelling through really good conductors of electricity, like electrical wires and whatnot.

1.3. Electricity feats doing feats of damage that IRL lightning can't do is fine to scale above natural lightning's AP here (8-C it was I think)

1.4. Channeling the energy of a cloud-to-ground lightning would cause the wielder to be 800 megajoules (9-A+). If they have shown proof they can also summon lightning directly from the clouds itself, that'd be 1.6 gigajoules (8-C)

2. Stuff that has been rejected:

2.1. Different speeds of lightning depending upon the type of lightning stroke.
(DT: shooting only "lightning return strokes" is theoretically impossible.
"A return stroke is, as the name says, a stroke that returns after the initial lightning strike. For something to qualify as a return stroke first a channel would need to be established by a lightning leader striking the object and then the stroke would need to run from the object that was hit back to the source of the lightning through that channel.")

3. Stuff that has yet to be determined:

3.1. Whether or not a character would scale to the full 1.6 gigajoule value, provided that they show feats of being able to straight up manipulate lightning from the clouds, manipulating storms en masse and channeling lightning from said storm clouds (They first have to show feats/have reliable statements that they can channel said lightning from the clouds directly and manipulate the lightning within the clouds to whatever they like), or they have shown feats to be able to straight up transform into natural lightning and then move through the clouds.

3.2. What tier we give to a character who can manipulate channel lightning directly from the clouds without making it crash down into the ground naturally

3.3. Determining when an electricity blast is truly lightning based (And thus would wield the aforementioned 1.6 gigajoule value and Mach 1283 speed) on how much destruction it generates compared to what IRL lightning can achieve, whether its voltage/ampere/duration values are shown on-screen to be sufficient enough to match the aforementioned lightning energy values, whether the bolts can be fully channeled from the clouds into the person's body to then be shot as blasts (Which would imply full mastery over lightning, maybe)

DT:
If you can scale its destruction use that to quantify its power. No point of using natural lightning either.

My response to this part was this.
I mean, the examples I was going to mostly cover was how X lightning viciously damages buildings, causes cars to flip and all that stuff, which IRL lightning can't do.

To which he (DT) then said...
Guess that's probably fine.

I have something to comment on.

In general, I can smell that KLOL506 is really trying very hard to give conditions where 1.6 gigajoule yields be applicable to certain selected characters.

Point 1.3.
If the said lightning can do damage IRL lightning cannot do, why not just use the mentioned feat and calculate them?
This is not inherently a valid point in scaling a cloud-to-ground lightning a value above what it has already been accepted.
(Of course, if the lightning already produces destruction calculated to be bigger than 800 megajoules, then the yield for such destruction should be calculated and taken as the attack potency instead. Which, does not need to use a predetermined value to assume.)

Point 1.4.
I would further add that the caster needs to be able to "create lightning clouds" (however small such cloud is, since as KLOL says 1.6 gigajoule yield is for cloud to cloud lightning).
(Then again,
1.4.1. this is for characters being able to create a really small lightning cloud yet it shoots electricity akin to natural lightning.
1.4.2. if the said caster can create a cloud yielding far higher than 1.6 gigajoules, the said yield should be calculated and be applied instead.)

If lightning users can "transform" into lightning.... Well, speed should still be okay for 440000 m/s, whereas AP yield... I am still comfortable with 800 megajoules yield (9-A+).

 

[KLOL506]

Point 1.3.
If the said lightning can do damage IRL lightning cannot do, why not just use the mentioned feat and calculate them?
This is not inherently a valid point in scaling a cloud-to-ground lightning a value above what it has already been accepted.
(Of course, if the lightning already produces destruction calculated to be bigger than 800 megajoules, then the yield for such destruction should be calculated and taken as the attack potency instead. Which, does not need to use a predetermined value to assume.)

IRL lightning can cause minor damage to concrete roads, though not by much. If the bolt is big enough and strong enough to damage even more than that then I'd say that's a valid benchmark for the electric bolt to scale above IRL lightning bolts.

Point 1.4.

I would further add that the caster needs to be able to "create lightning clouds" (however small such cloud is, since as KLOL says 1.6 gigajoule yield is for cloud to cloud lightning).
(Then again,
1.4.1. this is for characters being able to create a really small lightning cloud yet it shoots electricity akin to natural lightning.

Small lightning clouds aren't gonna cut it. It has to be from clouds in the sky itself, however they may be brought about by the character, or whether the character can take advantage of said clouds to harness its lightning without having to manipulate storms.

1.4.2. if the said caster can create a cloud yielding far higher than 1.6 gigajoules, the said yield should be calculated and be applied instead.)

That's a whole other can of worms depending on scaling the storm's energy yield to physicals, assuming the character can only channel lightning but can't channel the power of the storm because of Universal Energy Source shenanigans.

If lightning users can "transform" into lightning.... Well, speed should still be okay for 440000 m/s, whereas AP yield... I am still comfortable with 800 megajoules yield (9-A+).

Transforming into cloud-to-ground lightning would give them 800 megajoules, but transforming into lightning and then being able to ride through the clouds as well would effectively give them the full power of cloud-to-cloud lightning (1.6 gigajoules), since they are in essence, basically turning into cloud-to-cloud lightning by being able to ride through clouds instead of being just limited to striking from the cloud to the grounds.

 

[Jasonsith]

IRL lightning can cause minor damage to concrete roads, though not by much. If the bolt is big enough and strong enough to damage even more than that then I'd say that's a valid benchmark for the electric bolt to scale above IRL lightning bolts.

Well, if said energy can destroy and blow up things, I would say said yield of energy from destroying things would be determined from the feat itself rather than being assumed a value (other than the generic 800 megajoules one).

Small lightning clouds aren't gonna cut it. It has to be from clouds in the sky itself, however they may be brought about by the character, or whether the character can take advantage of said clouds to harness its lightning without having to manipulate storms.

If one can create a cloud large enough, the said cloud creation can already be considered a feat by itself.

If one can cast a cloud to ground lightning then the cloud to ground lightning yield predetermined can already be slapped into.

I was trying to give a scenario when a cloud to cloud lightning case is actually there.

Say... In my mind:

This is lightning from a wand (by Garuda) but is akin to cloud-to-ground lightning otherwise.

While this lightning (by Wiz) can arguably be classified as cloud-to-cloud lightning because the character sets a cloud that can build lightning in a cloud and the strike it down. I believe the ability to create one or even more charged cloud is a criteria and the central idea of a cloud-to-cloud lightning.

That's a whole other can of worms depending on scaling the storm's energy yield to physicals, assuming the character can only channel lightning but can't channel the power of the storm because of Universal Energy Source shenanigans.

What Universal Energy Source shenanigans are you talking about?

Transforming into cloud-to-ground lightning would give them 800 megajoules, but transforming into lightning and then being able to ride through the clouds as well would effectively give them the full power of cloud-to-cloud lightning (1.6 gigajoules), since they are in essence, basically turning into cloud-to-cloud lightning by being able to ride through clouds instead of being just limited to striking from the cloud to the grounds.

... May I ask do you have a character in mind who can transform into lightning and ride as lightning in the air?
Speed being 440000 m/s is not an issue for me. But the AP yield though... I would still say it is closer to cloud to ground lightning.
Since the yield of cloud-to-cloud lightning essentially involves two charged clouds, just travelling as a pure electric being in the air would be more akin to casting cloud-to-ground lightning
(in fact, if the cloud has already been charged, the character as an energy form would actually need to input less energy to ride between clouds, which kind of defeat the point of the said feat being more impressive)



And I do not know if this is what you call "turning into lightning and ride between clouds and air". (The Flash Gremlin)

 

[KLOL506]

Well, if said energy can destroy and blow up things, I would say said yield of energy from destroying things would be determined from the feat itself rather than being assumed a value (other than the generic 800 megajoules one).

At the bare minimum it'd be above the 800 megajoule value for being able to cause damage above what an IRL lightning bolt can do.

If one can create a cloud large enough, the said cloud creation can already be considered a feat by itself.

Scaling the cloud creation to AP is another story if there are no Universal Energy Sources in play.

Also creating a cloud large enough to qualify would effectively end up in creating and manipulating actual storms.

If one can cast a cloud to ground lightning then the cloud to ground lightning yield predetermined can already be slapped into.

I was trying to give a scenario when a cloud to cloud lightning case is actually there.

Say... In my mind:

This is lightning from a wand but is akin to cloud-to-ground lightning otherwise.

Does it share realistic properties of electricity? Does it have electromagnetism, electrolysis or ozone generation as one of its side-effects?

While this can arguably be classified as cloud-to-cloud lightning because the character sets a cloud that can build lightning in a cloud and the strike it down. I believe the ability to create one or even more charged cloud is a criteria and the central idea of a cloud-to-cloud lightning.

I believe we had contentions regarding clouds that small being viable for being calculated to begin with, let alone assuming that lightning from those clouds could be viable.

What Universal Energy Source shenanigans are you talking about?

See here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Universal_Energy_Systems

... May I ask do you have a character in mind who can transform into lightning and ride as lightning in the air?

I do. Electro from Marvel Comics and the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

And Blitz from Devil May Cry.

They all travel through clouds mostly, inadvertently charging it up as they go. Comic Electro is straight up stated by Thor to be composed entirely of lightning.

Speed being 440000 m/s is not an issue for me. But the AP yield though... I would still say it is closer to cloud to ground lightning.
Since the yield of cloud-to-cloud lightning essentially involves two charged clouds, just travelling as a pure electric being in the air would be more akin to casting cloud-to-ground lightning

We're not talking about travelling in air tho, but through the clouds, which the examples I mentioned above do, and they charge up the clouds as a result.

(in fact, if the cloud has already been charged, the character as an energy form would actually need to input less energy to ride between clouds, which kind of defeat the point of the said feat being more impressive)



And I do not know if this is what you call "turning into lightning and ride between clouds and air".

No, this is not what I had in mind.

This is what I truly had in mind.



And this:


Though in the second case the Blitz descends as cloud-to-ground lightning, it has feats in-lore where it can also traverse through clouds and charge them up (It also has the ability to manipulate storms quite easily)

 

[Jasonsith]

Does it share realistic properties of electricity? Does it have electromagnetism, electrolysis or ozone generation as one of its side-effects?

It is actually very hard to display such properties back in gameplay.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/ninjagaiden/images/2/23/Ninja_gaiden_shadow_screen1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120825173843

Some other displays of Garuda possibly casting lightning. (Though it can be explained in a lot of ways: Is Garuda striking lightning? Is he straight up casting a thunder storm? Or is he just raiding New York during a thunder storm?)

Some traits of Garuda's lightning being real lightning:
1. His cloud to ground lightning does cause some destruction like a real lightning does in houses in Texas USA.
2. His lightning strikes does (attempt to) shape like realistic lightning.
3. The sound effects does emulate an electric flow with a thunder.
4. His lightning does (attempt to) chase the "highest object" and pointed metallic objects (in this case, the sword of Ryu Hayabusa) like real lightning does.

This will be applicable for specific characters.

Charging clouds one by one is not a 1.6 gigajoule feat. (Or the volume he charges can be calculated and exceeds far beyond such)

---

All in all, it should be reminded that "lightning feats" can be applicable to Marvel and Capcom characters as well as other "lesser known" characters.

So proceed discussion with caution (as this can result in a metaphorical swarm of critters and gremlins if gone wrong) and continue the chatting. I am back to work.

 

[KLOL506]

It is actually very hard to display such properties back in gameplay.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/ninjagaiden/images/2/23/Ninja_gaiden_shadow_screen1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120825173843

Some other displays of Garuda possibly casting lightning. (Though it can be explained in a lot of ways: Is Garuda striking lightning? Is he straight up casting a thunder storm? Or is he just raiding New York during a thunder storm?)

Some traits of Garuda's lightning being real lightning:
1. His cloud to ground lightning does cause some destruction like a real lightning does in houses in Texas USA.
2. His lightning strikes does (attempt to) shape like realistic lightning.
3. The sound effects does emulate an electric flow with a thunder.
4. His lightning does (attempt to) chase the "highest object" and pointed metallic objects (in this case, the sword of Ryu Hayabusa) like real lightning does.

Hmmmmm, then it can be considered to be real lightning.

This will be applicable for specific characters.

Charging clouds one by one is not a 1.6 gigajoule feat. (Or the volume he charges can be calculated and exceeds far beyond such)

Not that it matters. They literally live as living lightning and they don't hold back on their energy, they've already demonstrated mastery over it as a result.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Disagree on this, this would just be blatantly denying their showcased feats at face value for arbitrary reasons especially if they showed firsthand via statements or feats that they can control lightning from the clouds and/or it shows some IRL properties of it.

It's our established practice to hold all supernatural lightning to this level of scrutiny.

If they showed that they can control lightning from clouds then they of course meet the usual realistic lightning requirements. Otherwise, though, a god doesn't get more pass at the criteria than a mage. What kind of supernatural creature a character is should really hold no sway over the evaluation of the capabilities.

Not sure how a Tesla Coil fits here? Other than that it lacks the appropriate voltage and amps and may not even be lethal enough.

You can also build a tesla coil that is lethal and yet weaker than cloud-to-ground lightning. The point is that it is possible to have lightning that is perfectly scientific and doesn't scale to cloud-to-ground lightning's AP value in the slightest.

Depends on which verse you're talking about honestly.

If the verse had solid enough evidence to say that they definitely can call down real cloud-to-ground lightning there would be hardly a point to the debate. As we already knew they could.

However, if we don't see it or have it stated I doubt there would be solid evidence tbh.

But that's the assumption I've already taken into account in advance. I am explicitly talking about said gods that have shown explicitly to have control over the aspects they represent, be it either via statements or feats.

Then why are you trying to scale them to cloud-to-ground lightning based on the fact that they are lightning gods and not based on the fact that we know that they have feats of calling down cloud-to-ground lightning?
Like, either the control over the aspect hasn't demonstrated to be able to call down cloud-to-ground lightning, but only generic lightning powers, or this debate is redundant, as we already have agreed on how to scale characters that have demonstrated the ability to call down cloud-to-ground lightning.

 

[KLOL506]

It's our established practice to hold all supernatural lightning to this level of scrutiny.

If they showed that they can control lightning from clouds then they of course meet the usual realistic lightning requirements. Otherwise, though, a god doesn't get more pass at the criteria than a mage. What kind of supernatural creature a character is should really hold no sway over the evaluation of the capabilities.

Was talking about them having to have shown control over lightning from the clouds. Would they qualify then?

You can also build a tesla coil that is lethal and yet weaker than cloud-to-ground lightning. The point is that it is possible to have lightning that is perfectly scientific and doesn't scale to cloud-to-ground lightning's AP value in the slightest.

Well technically lethality's not so much the question as it is the damage output.

Then why are you trying to scale them to cloud-to-ground lightning based on the fact that they are lightning gods and not based on the fact that we know that they have feats of calling down cloud-to-ground lightning?
Like, either the control over the aspect hasn't demonstrated to be able to call down cloud-to-ground lightning, but only generic lightning powers, or this debate is redundant, as we already have agreed on how to scale characters that have demonstrated the ability to call down cloud-to-ground lightning.

Wasn't talking about just cloud-to-ground lightning tho, but also cloud-to-cloud lightning.

Wouldn't they scale to both in this case, provided they have shown being capable of manipulating it away from the clouds?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Was talking about them having to have shown control over lightning from the clouds. Would they qualify then?

If they have shown to control lightning form the clouds then they qualify in accordance with the same criteria as everyone else, yes.

Well technically lethality's not so much the question as it is the damage output.

Sure, but the damage output and energy of such a tesla coil is also less?

Wasn't talking about just cloud-to-ground lightning tho, but also cloud-to-cloud lightning. Wouldn't they scale to both in this case, provided they have shown being capable of manipulating it away from the clouds?

I suppose they would.

 

[KLOL506]

Sure, but the damage output and energy of such a tesla coil is also less?

I mean, the Tesla coil isn't gonna damage anything given it doesn't have nearly enough juice for sheer blunt force.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, DontTalk. I think that you seem to make sense above, but I am not the best person to ask.

 

[KLOL506]

Okay so, things so far that have been accepted:

1. Cloud-to-cloud lightning is 8-C (1.6 gigajoules), cloud-to-ground is half that, 9-A+ (800 megajoules)

2. Speed of electricity through good conductors is 90% speed of light. Of course, this would only scale if said characters are travelling through really good conductors of electricity, like electrical wires and whatnot.

3. Electricity feats doing feats of damage that IRL lightning can't do is fine to scale above natural lightning's AP here (8-C it was I think)

4. Channeling the energy of a cloud-to-ground lightning without having channeled it from the clouds prior would cause the wielder to be 800 megajoules (9-A+).

5. Characters who have also demonstrated feats of being able to manipulate and channel lightning directly from the clouds, manipulating storms en masse and/or channeling lightning from said storm clouds (They first have to show feats/have reliable statements that they can channel said lightning from the clouds directly and manipulate the lightning within the clouds to whatever they like), would scale to the cloud-to-cloud lightning value of 1.6 gigajoules (8-C), as per this comment.

Things that remain to be decided:

1. Which energy yield of lightning we give to people who can directly transform into lightning, are called lightning and/or can also ride through clouds as lightning. Some good examples being Electro from Marvel Comics and the Marvel Cinematic Universe, and Blitz from Devil May Cry.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems fine then. Thank you for the information.

However, can you better explain the intended distinction mentioned in point one please? Did you use the wrong wording for one of the examples?

 

[KLOL506]

Okay. That seems fine then. Thank you for the information.

However, can you better explain the intended distinction mentioned in point one please? Did you use the wrong wording for one of the examples?

I didn't use any wrong wording.

Cloud-to-cloud lightning is intracloud lightning within the clouds itself, cloud-to-ground lightning is the classic lightning we all know and love and fear, that strikes down from the clouds onto the ground, hence the name. It's already noted down in the OP itself.

Cloud-to-cloud (Intracloud) lightning is 8-C or 1.6 gigajoules (1.6E+9 J). Cloud-to-ground (The one that strikes down to the earth from the clouds) is half as strong, 9-A+ or 800 megajoules.

 

[Antvasima]

Sorry. I misread both of them as saying cloud-to-ground for some reason. Never mind then.

 

[KLOL506]

Sorry. I misread both of them as saying cloud-to-ground for some reason. Never mind then.

No worries, it happens.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I mean, the Tesla coil isn't gonna damage anything given it doesn't have nearly enough juice for sheer blunt force.

Sure... but like, you can still produce scientific lightning that damages stuff and is weaker than cloud-to-ground lightning. Cloud-to-ground lightning energy isn't the border for lightning to deal damage.

 

[KLOL506]

Sure... but like, you can still produce scientific lightning that damages stuff and is weaker than cloud-to-ground lightning. Cloud-to-ground lightning energy isn't the border for lightning to deal damage.

Would it maintain the same speed?

 

[Jasonsith]

Okay so, things so far that have been accepted:

1. Cloud-to-cloud lightning is 8-C (1.6 gigajoules), cloud-to-ground is half that, 9-A+ (800 megajoules)

2. Speed of electricity through good conductors is 90% speed of light. Of course, this would only scale if said characters are travelling through really good conductors of electricity, like electrical wires and whatnot.

3. Electricity feats doing feats of damage that IRL lightning can't do is fine to scale above natural lightning's AP here (8-C it was I think)

4. Channeling the energy of a cloud-to-ground lightning without having channeled it from the clouds prior would cause the wielder to be 800 megajoules (9-A+).

5. Characters who have also demonstrated feats of being able to manipulate and channel lightning directly from the clouds, manipulating storms en masse and/or channeling lightning from said storm clouds (They first have to show feats/have reliable statements that they can channel said lightning from the clouds directly and manipulate the lightning within the clouds to whatever they like), would scale to the cloud-to-cloud lightning value of 1.6 gigajoules (8-C), as per this comment.

Things that remain to be decided:

1. Which energy yield of lightning we give to people who can directly transform into lightning, are called lightning and/or can also ride through clouds as lightning. Some good examples being Electro from Marvel Comics and the Marvel Cinematic Universe, and Blitz from Devil May Cry.

Being able to transform into one lightning entity is one "power or ability".

It can be dangerous to assign an AP with that unless you calculate the electromagnetic field carried by the character (which need a calc blog).

Since it is one energy source, I am only comfortable with assigning a 9-A+ at best, or just suggest have a calc blog for such feats.


Remember, this is suppose to be a CRT for feats applicable to potentially all characters in fiction whenever terms and conditions apply.

 

[KLOL506]

Being able to transform into one lightning entity is one "power or ability".

IDK what you mean by this or how this is relevant to being able to transform into both types of lightning.

It can be dangerous to assign an AP with that unless you calculate the electromagnetic field carried by the character (which need a calc blog).

I honestly don't see why that is a problem as long as they can show that they can transform into both cloud-to-ground lightning and lightning that travels through clouds AKA intracloud lightning. I don't see why they'd be locked out of achieving the full 8-C value if they have the transformation feats to show for it.

Also we don't have a formula for calculating electromagnetic fields, only the standard Ohm's law. Not even sure why we'd need to calculate the electromagnetic field in the first place if their transformation is all we need.

Since it is one energy source, I am only comfortable with assigning a 9-A+ at best, or just suggest have a calc blog for such feats.

Disagree, this would apply if they can only transform into cloud-to-ground lightning, not if they can also go intra-cloud.

Remember, this is suppose to be a CRT for feats applicable to potentially all characters in fiction whenever terms and conditions apply.

I am fully aware.

 

[Jasonsith]

IDK what you mean by this or how this is relevant to being able to transform into both types of lightning.

Well this is some form of electricity manipulation of transforming into electricity by any means.
Whether we can blindly assign any value to it is another.

I honestly don't see why that is a problem as long as they can show that they can transform into both cloud-to-ground lightning and lightning that travels through clouds AKA intracloud lightning. I don't see why they'd be locked out of achieving the full 8-C value if they have the transformation feats to show for it.

Then the preset terms apply instead.

Also we don't have a formula for calculating electromagnetic fields, only the standard Ohm's law. Not even sure why we'd need to calculate the electromagnetic field in the first place if their transformation is all we need.

Actually there is an attempt to make into a formula

Wiz: By measuring the area of effect and comparing that space to the heights of Captain Falcon and Black Shadow, we found that the electricity covered an area of about 300 cubic meters. Accounting for empty space, the amount of electricity needed to fill this area must equal at least 151 billion joules of energy.

Wonder if we could use THAT formula for any character who can charge up electricity around.

Disagree, this would apply if they can only transform into cloud-to-ground lightning, not if they can also go intra-cloud.

Well, if they can "just" transform into one electricity source and travel between media, they are still one source of electricity.

8-C or above applies only for manipulating storms en masse and channeling lightning from said storm clouds.

I am fully aware.

Glad you do. Because this really affects a lot of characters, including Garuda (Ninja Garden), Wizard (Castlevania) and Flash Gremlin (The Gremlins) and more.

 

[KLOL506]

Well this is some form of electricity manipulation of transforming into electricity by any means.
Whether we can blindly assign any value to it is another.

Eh, no. Transforming and then going through and out of clouds like this is the textbook definition of transforming into lightning.

Actually there is an attempt to make into a formula

Wonder if we could use THAT formula for any character who can charge up electricity around.

This prolly doesn't take into account electrical resistance (Because again, remember that all that power faces enormous resistance from the air alone, higher the resistance, lower the voltage and lower the energy) that would be faced by said bolt so I don't think we can, unfortunately.

Well, if they can "just" transform into one electricity source and travel between media, they are still one source of electricity.

Again, going through clouds like this and then charging down into the ground from there is textbook lightning. It doesn't get any more blatant than that.

Glad you do. Because this really affects a lot of characters, including Garuda (Ninja Garden), Wizard (Castlevania) and Flash Gremlin (The Gremlins) and more.

And nobody's denying that.

 

[Randomlamdom]

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[Randomlamdom]

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