Lavos vs Yubel

[Zencha9]

Base Lavos:
Ultimate Knightmare Yubel:
SBA
Speed is equal

 

[Imaginym]

Any idea of their opening moves?

 

[SlendVeny]

Any idea of their opening moves?

Lavos typically nukes everything on the planet.

 

[Zencha9]

yubel's in character move is mind hax (her attack) she usually sees someone's darkness from a glance which is something like info analysis and mind reading seeing someone's darkness is just seeing their past weaknesses, insecurities etc and she can tell by just looking
mind hax bypasses normal resistances and nullfies all connections to any beings inside someone's soul or mind as seen when yubel nullifed the connection between the crystal beasts and johan/jesse's mind

 

[Imaginym]

Lavos typically nukes everything on the planet.

So Lavos tries this. Any idea how their stats match up to know how well Yubel survives this?

yubel's in character move is mind hax (her attack) she usually sees someone's darkness from a glance which is something like info analysis and mind reading seeing someone's darkness is just seeing their past weaknesses, insecurities etc and she can tell by just looking
mind hax bypasses normal resistances and nullfies all connections to any beings inside someone's soul or mind as seen when yubel nullifed the connection between the crystal beasts and johan/jesse's mind

& Yubel sees the Literal Giant Space Flea From Nowhere, & despite that it might resemble yet another monster to her, tries to... look into the darkness in Lavos's heart?
I mean, does she act differently when dealing with non-humanoids?

Anyway, concerningly, Lavos has this:

Mind Manipulation and Morality Manipulation (Exposure to Lavos' energy brainwashed Queen Zeal, implied to have once been a benevolent ruler, into a power-hungry tyrant set on using him to destroy and govern the world, with the change happening "almost overnight," and Lavos himself could likewise infect Schala with his own hatred and sorrow, causing a part of her mind to embrace the desire to end of all existence and gradually consuming her awareness)
Forcefield Creation, Cosmic Awareness and Precognition (Capable of looking through any point in time he wishes, past or future, as well as taking advantage of this non-linear view of it to prepare for future events, having seen his defeat at Crono's hands in advance and set up a scenario that would lead to his own return in response, and being aware of the Counter-Time Experiment conducted by Chronopolis over 12,000 years before it took place), Causality Manipulation (A small portion of Lavos' power imbued in the Frozen Flame is said to have the ability to rewrite history when properly channeled, with scientists in the Time Research Facility led by Belthasar further stating that they could attain complete control over the timeline by experimenting with the Flame. His influence is implied to cause the time axis itself to go out of order)

& for what its worth, despite Yubel having showings of bypassing Resistance to Mind Manipulation, it should be mentioned Lavos has this, too:

Resistance to Time Manipulation, Statistics Reduction, Sleep Manipulation, Poison Manipulation and Mind Manipulation (Cannot be affected by weapons and techs that inflict these status ailments)

It may be worth seeking out comparisons of the potency of the Mind-affecting equipment, tech & status ailments compared to what the Crystal Beasts granted Jesse.



Not to mention all the stuff about it warping space-time with its mere presence. & its incredible & incredibly long Intelligence justification, & it outranging her.

So just what exactly is Yubel's answer to Lavos knowing she's coming, big-braining up a plan for her, outranging her, brainwashing her with its energy when she shows up, & probably making Central Park, New York rapidly become a disorienting battlefield by way of its presence warping spacetime, which Lavos, by way of its intelligence, being the cause of said warping, & viewing time nonlinearly anyway, is likely to be less disoriented by? (Then again, unsure it bothered the CT player characters, so IDK how impactful the spacetime stuff would be.)

 

[Zencha9]

So Lavos tries this. Any idea how their stats match up to know how well Yubel survives this?

yubel has mid-godly it's fine and he never elaborated if it's his first move how fast it takes etc and she has spirit energy aura which is like power null above the level of the god cards so she's fine AP wise since she's stronger and can survive in space

& Yubel sees the Literal Giant Space Flea From Nowhere, & despite that it might resemble yet another monster to her, tries to... look into the darkness in Lavos's heart?
I mean, does she act differently when dealing with non-humanoids?

i mean she naturally senses darkness in his heart like it's not a thing she does actively if that makes sense also she did it to the crystal beasts

Mind Manipulation and Morality Manipulation (Exposure to Lavos' energy brainwashed Queen Zeal, implied to have once been a benevolent ruler, into a power-hungry tyrant set on using him to destroy and govern the world, with the change happening "almost overnight," and Lavos himself could likewise infect Schala with his own hatred and sorrow, causing a part of her mind to embrace the desire to end of all existence and gradually consuming her awareness)

if he tries to infect yubel with hatred it would backfire since she eats darkness for breakfast and she resists anyways

Forcefield Creation, Cosmic Awareness and Precognition (Capable of looking through any point in time he wishes, past or future, as well as taking advantage of this non-linear view of it to prepare for future events, having seen his defeat at Crono's hands in advance and set up a scenario that would lead to his own return in response, and being aware of the Counter-Time Experiment conducted by Chronopolis over 12,000 years before it took place), Causality Manipulation (A small portion of Lavos' power imbued in the Frozen Flame is said to have the ability to rewrite history when properly channeled, with scientists in the Time Research Facility led by Belthasar further stating that they could attain complete control over the timeline by experimenting with the Flame. His influence is implied to cause the time axis itself to go out of order)

spirit energy covers space-time stuff given that time wizard exists precog is good and should work on yubel

It may be worth seeking out comparisons of the potency of the Mind-affecting equipment, tech & status ailments compared to what the Crystal Beasts granted Jesse.



Not to mention all the stuff about it warping space-time with its mere presence. & its incredible & incredibly long Intelligence justification, & it outranging her.

So just what exactly is Yubel's answer to Lavos knowing she's coming, big-braining up a plan for her, outranging her, brainwashing her with its energy when she shows up, & probably making Central Park, New York rapidly become a disorienting battlefield by way of its presence warping spacetime, which Lavos, by way of its intelligence, being the cause of said warping, & viewing time nonlinearly anyway, is likely to be less disoriented by? (Then again, unsure it bothered the CT player characters, so IDK how impactful the spacetime stuff would be.)

as far as i know it's baseline from the profiles and what i asked on discord
warping space and time is like a daily thing that happens through spirit energy in yugioh lol zorc vs blue eyes, rainbow dragon vs armityle etc
she resist mind manip don't think this match needs alot of big brain stuff and she again deals with via spirit energy aura so we should go from there "what would past lavos do to try and get rid of her"

 

[Imaginym]

yubel has mid-godly it's fine and he never elaborated if it's his first move how fast it takes etc

@SlendVeny : Care to elaborate?
& if you care about my opinion (lol), you won't see this as an opportunity to try & pull a "Gigachad" move of "Introduces point, refuses to elaborate, leaves".

and she has spirit energy aura which is like power null above the level of the god cards

Basis?

i mean she naturally senses darkness in his heart like it's not a thing she does actively if that makes sense also she did it to the crystal beasts

Did what? Also, relevance of doing this to the Crystal Beasts? All I know of their relevance in this context is that Jesse's bond with them provided him with a Resistance to Mind Manipulation, & breaking that to Mind Manipulate Jesse was the basis for her increased potency of her Mind Manipulation.

if he tries to infect yubel with hatred it would backfire since she eats darkness for breakfast and she resists anyways

So it tries to brainwash Yubel, & takes however long it took with Queen Zeal, or it puts more of that "darkness" into Yubel's nihilistic sado-masochistic self? Makes for the question of what's the breaking point.

spirit energy covers space-time stuff given that time wizard exists

I feel like I missed a lot of information with this "Spirit Energy" stuff. Care to direct me to good resources regarding what you're asserting, please?

precog is good and should work on yubel

I will say this I might question how IC it is for Lavos to use Precognition, & I'm unsure if it's Passive or Active.

Hopefully a Chrono Trigger/Cross expert can weigh in on it. I'm unclear regarding the scan the profile provides.

as far as i know it's baseline from the profiles and what i asked on discord

Dare I ask what who said?

warping space and time is like a daily thing that happens through spirit energy in yugioh lol zorc vs blue eyes, rainbow dragon vs armityle etc

Potency?

Spoiler: Lengthy Lavos justifications from profile for comparison:

Space-Time Manipulation (Lavos' presence alone creates a rift in time and space, causing several past and future eras to flash by, which he can alter at will to readapt his moveset, and the emergence of the Black Omen, imbued with his power, threw the balance of the spacetime continuum off its axes and caused the Epoch's spacetime gyroscope to go haywire. Can stop targets in time and reduce their speed by half with Freeze and Invading Light respectively, and Schala's Pendant, powered by a fraction of his energy, had the ability to rewind time and return Kid to the earliest possible point in which she was safe)

Energy Manipulation (Robo hypothesizes that the energy that Lavos emits is so immense that it strains local spacetime, causing temporal anomalies and creating rifts in its fabric)

Danmaku, Gravity Manipulation (Can bend gravitational fields as to create massive dimensional distortions, and should likewise have access to Magus' Black Hole technique)

she resist mind manip don't think this match needs alot of big brain stuff and she again deals with via spirit energy aura so we should go from there "what would past lavos do to try and get rid of her"

Well, regarding options Lavos has against opponents, looking at the profile, I find:

Portal Creation and BFR (Can open, and send enemies through, gates that lead to other points in the timeline, having thrown Gaspar into the End of Time, which lies infinitely far into the future. Sent Schala to the Darkness Beyond Time, which is the temporal void beyond the multiverse, and hurled all of Chronopolis 10,000 years into the past. Being the source of all his power, Lavos should have the same capabilities as Lynx, who sent Serge to the 2-dimensional space of the Temporal Vortex)

Power Mimicry (Used the abilities of enemies previously defeated by Crono's party, and is stated to have armed himself with the powers of every single living thing in history, including beings predating his arrival on the planet and machines that didn't yet exist at the time he was fought)
(Unsure which abilities it has from the other bosses or if it can do it to other things, especially non-biologicals.)

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1. Can manipulate dreams, which contain, define and give birth to reality as a whole while existing fully independently of it in the Sea of Dreams beyond time, being able to offensively target them as part of his ultimate magical attack. His power is also stated to act as a channel through which dreams are materialized into reality, giving physical form to beings such as Masa and Mune)

Existence Erasure (His energy is behind all of the capabilities of FATE, who was responsible for eliminating the condensed space-time of the Dead Sea and returning it to the Darkness Beyond Time, and the Frozen Flame itself caused the majority of the Acacia Dragons to be swallowed into an erased timeline, turning them into "salt for the dead sea.")

The aforementioned Mind/Morality Manipulation.

Sleep Manipulation (Scaling off of Lynx / FATE, who placed Kid in a coma by putting her very soul to sleep, which was only undone after he was defeated)

Matter Manipulation (Can generate a field of energy that disintegrates objects and people all the way down to atoms in preparation for their consumption)
(Albeit, less relevant against Yubel's Regeneration, but that's what Precognition & High Intelligence is for.)

Acausality (Limited Type 3. Can bring his pods back to life by opening a time gate and summoning alternate versions of them, which act as perfect replacements of the originals)

Memory Manipulation (Can inflict the "Lock" status effect, which causes a target to forget all of their special techniques)

Explosion Manipulation, Durability Negation (Halves the health of all foes with Evil Star, ignoring both physical and magical defenses. All of Queen Zeal's powers are derived and channeled from Lavos' own, and with her being also one of the lifeforms whose powers were assimilated by him, he should be able to use Halation, a technique that reduces the HP of all foes to 1)

Power Nullification (Disables a foe's immunities to status effects with Curse, and prevents all usage of magic, techniques and items with Omnilock, forcing targets to fight using only regular attacks)

Death Manipulation, Life Manipulation, Statistics Reduction and Sealing (Using the power of the Frozen Flame, FATE was able to fragment the Dragon God into the six elemental dragons, before sealing them away), Blood Manipulation
(Albeit, since this is for splitting up the dragons & kinda sorting out their powers, I suspect the dragons' abilities as the dragons' demonstrated may not be in-character, any of Lavos's own applications of such abilities shown, aside.)


With Precognition, Nonlinear viewing of time, & its "Unknown, likely at least Genius.", I question if this match is a case of "Determine if Lavos has 1 or more win conditions, because if it does, it will know what to go for from the start".

 

[Zencha9]

Basis?

on the profile
Aura and Power Nullification (created an aura that pushed back and overpowered the three Sacred Beasts and nullified their passive absorption ability[5], Yubel can also create aura around others[6].)'

Did what? Also, relevance of doing this to the Crystal Beasts? All I know of their relevance in this context is that Jesse's bond with them provided him with a Resistance to Mind Manipulation, & breaking that to Mind Manipulate Jesse was the basis for her increased potency of her Mind Manipulation.

breaking their bond wouldn't randomly get them out of jesse's head i don't know what you're talking it's not like jesse knew he was getting mind haxed and resisted via sheer will it's just that they're chilling in his mind and protecting it

So it tries to brainwash Yubel, & takes however long it took with Queen Zeal, or it puts more of that "darkness" into Yubel's nihilistic sado-masochistic self? Makes for the question of what's the breaking point.

yea yubel would get amped and it would take more than an infinite amount of time to overload yubel since she controls monsters who exert 2-C energy

I feel like I missed a lot of information with this "Spirit Energy" stuff. Care to direct me to good resources regarding what you're asserting, please?

spirit energy what i call it is the universal energy source used by yugioh monsters it's what the egyptian gods have that makes the unaffected by card effects

I will say this I might question how IC it is for Lavos to use Precognition, & I'm unsure if it's Passive or Active.

Hopefully a Chrono Trigger/Cross expert can weigh in on it. I'm unclear regarding the scan the profile provides.

i don't think it's a passive since present lavos died and it need a bit of time for past lavos to say no

Dare I ask what who said?

@Edwardtruong2006 the one who overhauled lavos's profile a day or so ago

Potency?

baseline i guess didn't really think about it since lavos is baseline as well

list of hax

we talked about most of this on discord BFR is a legit win con since it BFRs people to a place that needs beyond 2-A range to come back from
acausality 3 is for the pods and when lavos dies he can't summon them he would need past lavos to precog and do something
explosion, dura neg, EE and matter manip don't matter since yubel has mid-godly and she blocks most of em via spirit enrgy
power null doesn't matter since yubel's power null is above baseline since she's above the gods pre-yugi amps
death manip and sealing yubel can act while erased and sealed(during jaden's duel she could act like speak after getting erased in the duel and when she was erased and was in the card she was able to give a kid disease)i don't think that matters here
concept manip is limited and isn't relevant iirc

 

[Imaginym]

i don't think it's a passive since present lavos died and it need a bit of time for past lavos to say no

What Kid says is "Maybe he saw the possibility of his being destroyed by the adventurers in 1999.". I think what the evidence indicates is that Lavos saw a future where it was defeated & prepared for that.

we talked about most of this on discord

I'd prefer not to have to use the "honor system" for stuff that happened unofficially & off-site that is nonetheless in regards to an on-site debate.
If the effort to talk about it on Discord can be invested, that effort could just as well be put towards discussing it here.

BFR is a legit win con since it BFRs people to a place that needs beyond 2-A range to come back from
acausality 3 is for the pods and when lavos dies he can't summon them he would need past lavos to precog and do something
explosion, dura neg, EE and matter manip don't matter since yubel has mid-godly and she blocks most of em via spirit enrgy

"Most"? Which doesn't she? Also, why does Spirit Energy "block" them?

power null doesn't matter since yubel's power null is above baseline since she's above the gods pre-yugi amps

Which Gods? Just to be sure, you don't mean the Sacred Beasts, right?

concept manip is limited and isn't relevant iirc

The justification seems to disagree. It is not listed as "Limited".
Also: "Can manipulate dreams, which contain, define and give birth to reality as a whole while existing fully independently of it in the Sea of Dreams beyond time, being able to offensively target them as part of his ultimate magical attack. His power is also stated to act as a channel through which dreams are materialized into reality, giving physical form to beings such as Masa and Mune)

That does not read like a justification of something irrelevant, considering it's stated to "give birth to reality as a whole", & is apparently used in Lavos's magical attacks?

Anyway, Lavos looks into the possibilities, sees BFR as a win condition via Precognition, & BFRs Yubel?

 

[Zencha9]

What Kid says is "Maybe he saw the possibility of his being destroyed by the adventurers in 1999.". I think what the evidence indicates is that Lavos saw a future where it was defeated & prepared for that.

yea but it still needs some amount of prep and we don't assume that he already knows about the battle before the battle starts

I'd prefer not to have to use the "honor system" for stuff that happened unofficially & off-site that is nonetheless in regards to an on-site debate.
If the effort to talk about it on Discord can be invested, that effort could just as well be put towards discussing it here.

sure but the talks was to give me an idea about if this match is fair

"Most"? Which doesn't she? Also, why does Spirit Energy "block" them?

sorry "all" since again it's power null and the attacks aren't infinitely stronger than her i use "nulling" and "blocking" as the same

Which Gods? Just to be sure, you don't mean the Sacred Beasts, right?

the egyptian gods

The justification seems to disagree. It is not listed as "Limited".
Also: "Can manipulate dreams, which contain, define and give birth to reality as a whole while existing fully independently of it in the Sea of Dreams beyond time, being able to offensively target them as part of his ultimate magical attack. His power is also stated to act as a channel through which dreams are materialized into reality, giving physical form to beings such as Masa and Mune)

i said limited not as in use but as shown iirc he doesn't use dreams in any useful way relating to this match he just creates dreams, dream devourer and time devourer would be the ones using dreams in a useful way combat wise

 

[Jibz]

Lavos got that DIOR DIOR jacket.

 

[Zencha9]

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[Zencha9]

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