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Lain Iwakura (Serial Experiments Lain) vs. Heaven Ascension DIO (JoJo's Bizarre Adventure)
- Thread starter VJF&RMF
- Start date
- Status
- 127
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Goddess Lain would win
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Actually, HAD would most likely win. Also, you're talking about the dude that completely rekt GER. GER! One of THE most Hax characters out there. His range is Universal for Time Stop and reality overwrite, and his speed is infinite. Lain, being Omnipresent, is directily within his range, and he also has Time Stop to boot. So can Lain, after having said all these things, still beat HAD?Become the strongest said:
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but Goddess Lain is Omnipotent ._.
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Become the strongest said:
Questionable omnipotent is Tier 0, but we don't have True omnipotent, because it's impossible to determine True omnipotent.
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but it's Lain not Goddess Lain, Lain and Goddess Lain is differentSir Ovens said:
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I see you have no idea how much infinity in everything you must have to become Tier 0 or omnipotent..
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Also in this wiki we only have 1 Lain and that is Iwakura Lain which we currently use in this match, So I dont know what are you talking about.
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I'd side with heaven ascension dio. He's almost close to the power of yhwach for all I care
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sorry my badNot Jim Sterling said:
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Okay then.
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This match-up is kind of asinine because the contexts of Serial Experiments Lain and Jojo's Bizarre Adventure are entirely different, with the former being a mediative psychological horror cyberpunk sci-fi series while Jojo is a pulpy action adventure shounen series. The former is not about fights - Lain was never meant to be "defeatable" - whereas Jojo is arguably predominantly about fights and the tactical usages of the abilities at play, whether it be hamon or vampiric abilities or stands. These two otherwise excellent narratives are incompatible without making a farce of them both.
Nevertheless, let's humor this fight. Major spoilers for both shows, but especially Lain, follow.
To be blunt, Lain Iwakura is not a 14 year old girl at all. That is merely the form that Masami Eiri gave her manifestation. Lain Iwakura is embodied in the consciousness of human beings and manifested through Schumann resonance (a ubiquitous real world resonance frequency encompassing the planet Earth) due to Protocol 7, a program that is meant to link the Wired and real world. The Wired is a pervasive virtual reality version of the Internet that is essentially hallucinated; one of the messages of Lain was that reality was essentially illusory due to the divergences in people's perceptions of it. The hallucination is made real using the amalgamated psychic power of human beings that is harnessed by the KIDS System. By the end of the anime, Lain has removed herself from tangible reality and acts merely as a more-or-less impartial observer.
Heaven Ascension Dio is everyone's favorite power-obsessed sociopathic vampire finally having attainted his dream of godlike power. Of course, this was only in a not-really-canon "what-if" scenario in a video game for the purpose of having a badass final boss and thus the actual limitations of his abilities are pretty vague. Nonetheless, you would think The World Over Heaven, his improved Stand, couldn't just punch the Earth and rewrite it entirely all at once or else, you know, he would have just done that during his fight with Jotaro and wouldn't have freaking lost the same way AU Diego Brando did at the end of Steel Ball Run.
So, I'll get straight to the point - assuming Lain exists, Dio is already part of Protocol 7. If Lain has realized her nature as she had at the end of her series, she just automatically wins since she by default has access to Dio's consciousness and can just erase him from reality whenever she feels like he's a threat to the world and therefore the people she cares about. There is no impediment to her doing this instantly - it just happens. Lain's power is used as a philosophical thought experiment throughout her series; Dio's power is wholly practical and, while extraordinarily overwhelming, is explicitly meant to be defeatable. Lain at her full power is without a doubt stronger than Dio at his full power; if you can question this, you have not partaken in at least one of these series. Lain wins.
But let's assume Lain has not awakened to her true nature yet and is still investigating her nature/the Knights of Eastern Calculus. This means distortions in reality are essentially occuring at intervals around her as her nascent functional omnipotence writhes within her subconsciousness; Dio may take notice and recognize her as a potential threat. Lain's manifestation during this stage is not the totality of Lain; killing the 14 year old girl named Lain or attempting to use Dio's The World Over Heaven to rewrite the reality of this projection doesn't really do anything to the phenomenon that is Lain herself. She'll probably just reconsistute as a thoughtform in the Wired in utter confusion as to what just happened and eventually regain physical manifestation at some other place when Dio's attention is elsewhere - probably having made progress in her investigation. This gets him nowhere closer to victory.
Dio's actual goal in this fight would be to end Protocol 7 and thus the process that is constituting Lain, but it no longer exists in physical reality. Dio can enter the Wired just by accessing any divice that allows interface with the Wired and I'm pretty sure he could figure out how to do so in such a way that he retains his godlike powers. In doing so, he can just freeze time and figure out exactly what's going on before Lain does, then put an end to Protocol 7 (which is a task unto itself, but this is Dio, so I assume he can do it). This ends Lain as a sapient being before she gains the functional omnipotence necessary to exist regardless of Protocol 7. Dio wins.
It's really not actually much of a fight so much as a scenario unto itself since Lain really cannot be torn out of the context of her anime's story. Dio is either fighting an even more godlike being than he himself is or a 14 year old girl that doesn't know she's a godlike being. This all noted, I put my vote in for Lain. Dio is at his full power, so Lain should be at her full power as well for the purpose of this fight. At full power, it's still not even a fight in the first place. That's why this match-up is kind of asinine.
Nevertheless, let's humor this fight. Major spoilers for both shows, but especially Lain, follow.
To be blunt, Lain Iwakura is not a 14 year old girl at all. That is merely the form that Masami Eiri gave her manifestation. Lain Iwakura is embodied in the consciousness of human beings and manifested through Schumann resonance (a ubiquitous real world resonance frequency encompassing the planet Earth) due to Protocol 7, a program that is meant to link the Wired and real world. The Wired is a pervasive virtual reality version of the Internet that is essentially hallucinated; one of the messages of Lain was that reality was essentially illusory due to the divergences in people's perceptions of it. The hallucination is made real using the amalgamated psychic power of human beings that is harnessed by the KIDS System. By the end of the anime, Lain has removed herself from tangible reality and acts merely as a more-or-less impartial observer.
Heaven Ascension Dio is everyone's favorite power-obsessed sociopathic vampire finally having attainted his dream of godlike power. Of course, this was only in a not-really-canon "what-if" scenario in a video game for the purpose of having a badass final boss and thus the actual limitations of his abilities are pretty vague. Nonetheless, you would think The World Over Heaven, his improved Stand, couldn't just punch the Earth and rewrite it entirely all at once or else, you know, he would have just done that during his fight with Jotaro and wouldn't have freaking lost the same way AU Diego Brando did at the end of Steel Ball Run.
So, I'll get straight to the point - assuming Lain exists, Dio is already part of Protocol 7. If Lain has realized her nature as she had at the end of her series, she just automatically wins since she by default has access to Dio's consciousness and can just erase him from reality whenever she feels like he's a threat to the world and therefore the people she cares about. There is no impediment to her doing this instantly - it just happens. Lain's power is used as a philosophical thought experiment throughout her series; Dio's power is wholly practical and, while extraordinarily overwhelming, is explicitly meant to be defeatable. Lain at her full power is without a doubt stronger than Dio at his full power; if you can question this, you have not partaken in at least one of these series. Lain wins.
But let's assume Lain has not awakened to her true nature yet and is still investigating her nature/the Knights of Eastern Calculus. This means distortions in reality are essentially occuring at intervals around her as her nascent functional omnipotence writhes within her subconsciousness; Dio may take notice and recognize her as a potential threat. Lain's manifestation during this stage is not the totality of Lain; killing the 14 year old girl named Lain or attempting to use Dio's The World Over Heaven to rewrite the reality of this projection doesn't really do anything to the phenomenon that is Lain herself. She'll probably just reconsistute as a thoughtform in the Wired in utter confusion as to what just happened and eventually regain physical manifestation at some other place when Dio's attention is elsewhere - probably having made progress in her investigation. This gets him nowhere closer to victory.
Dio's actual goal in this fight would be to end Protocol 7 and thus the process that is constituting Lain, but it no longer exists in physical reality. Dio can enter the Wired just by accessing any divice that allows interface with the Wired and I'm pretty sure he could figure out how to do so in such a way that he retains his godlike powers. In doing so, he can just freeze time and figure out exactly what's going on before Lain does, then put an end to Protocol 7 (which is a task unto itself, but this is Dio, so I assume he can do it). This ends Lain as a sapient being before she gains the functional omnipotence necessary to exist regardless of Protocol 7. Dio wins.
It's really not actually much of a fight so much as a scenario unto itself since Lain really cannot be torn out of the context of her anime's story. Dio is either fighting an even more godlike being than he himself is or a 14 year old girl that doesn't know she's a godlike being. This all noted, I put my vote in for Lain. Dio is at his full power, so Lain should be at her full power as well for the purpose of this fight. At full power, it's still not even a fight in the first place. That's why this match-up is kind of asinine.
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^ Dude that was a cool read and exactly the kind of reply I wish to see on my scenario posts.
Anyway that being said I still vote for lord DIO.
Anyway that being said I still vote for lord DIO.
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However, HAD has Infinite Speed. Based on most GER threads, I must say that Infinite Speed > Omnipresence. At least, most of the time. From what I have gathered from HAD's profile and the game, I can say that he can also Nullify Lain's powers with his hands. Based on these, I say HAD would take this.
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People who vote for Dio just because they think he's cooler are seriously missing the point of a power level discussion. I get it: Jojo is the more well-known series and Dio is a sauve, exciting antagonist with a surprising amount of depth on top of being the father of a thousand memes. More people have seen Jojo - they know Dio is strong and they want to support the character they're a fan of, but we should be objective in our observations of the two character's abilities and how they interact and vote based on that. To do otherwise is dishonest and defeats the point of this exercise, turning it into a simple popularity contest.
In any case, in response to Sir Ovens, here's the thing about why HAD's infinite speed doesn't matter one bit to an awakened Lain: it's still restricted by his own consciousness. He must make the decision to activate The World Under Heaven. Why is this relevant? Because Lain after discovering her true nature knows Dio better than Dio himself does.
Bear with me here. I would like to draw a contrast between both these characters and what they represent narratively speaking.
To go off on a philosopical tangent, anyone familiar with Dio's character knows that the main seed of his motivation in every Part is to gain control of his own life; to this end he desires unconditional freedom, but Dio feels he is a constant victim of circumstance. He blames Johnathan for interfering in his own homicidal chicanery in Part 1 when he goes on a drinking binge. When confronted by the police later on, he chooses to become a vampire instead of going to jail; a century later, he mentions to someone that he knows the pain they're going through because he can't go out in the sunlight, which is obviously his own damn fault, but in his mind he had no choice.
Someone obsessed with control obviously feels the need to control those around them (hence his constant manipulation and intimidation of people throughout the series), but Dio goes beyond this. Because circumstances constantly contrive themselves to deprive him of the absolute control he craves (when really he's mostly bringing it all on himself by being "the worst man in the world"), he feels he will not be happy until he controls fate itself. That's "Heaven" to him - that's the entire reasoning behind the "Heaven" naming scheme.
And it's a bit sad, because despite the fact that he's admitted that gaining wealth, the physical power of a vampire, and the extraordinary power of his Stand didn't actually make him happy, it never occurs to Dio that his unlimited ambition and utter amorality are msguided. It never computes that his friendship with, say, Pucci, who he feels truly at ease and happy around, could be enough because he thinks people desire banal things like that just for the sake of peace of mind... which is exactly what he wants anyway, hence his entire spiel about how living means to conquer fear.
Now consider Lain in her awakened state. She has nearly limitless power. She has no defined weaknesses and what few limitations she actually has (for example, her reality warping is by default restricted to the terrestrial hemisphere) she can remove by altering the laws of physics with regards to Earth. She can warp reality instantly with no extraneous actions (no punches necessary) - it just happens. Her functional omnipresence/omniscience grants her potential knowledge of the precise location and course of everything in the world such that their past and future states for any given time are known to her. She can reset time at will. She can warp reality in any way she chooses to accomplish whatever she wants. More so than even Heaven Ascension Dio, she has control of fate itself.
Yet she chooses not to use it.
Lain is an entity of the collective unconsciousness. She is you, she is me, she is Dio - "she" isn't strictly correct, incidentally: it's merely a factor of how she's perceived based on her circumstantial manifestation. Her power is the power of a world made of many separate things - many separate individualities - flowing as one.
"No matter where you go, everybody's connected." Those are Lain's arc words. All people who act in the world affect other people who themselves affect ever more other people, creating a ripple of consequence. All people are the culmination of the totality of their experiences, their memories, their beliefs, and all of that is influenced by a neverending chain of conditions arising from human interaction. This cannot be avoided.
This is the ideal of Lain when applied to Dio Brando: The moment you hypothesize that you are different from the world, you want to get one up on it, but if you try to get one up on the world and you're in competition with it, that means you don't understand you ARE it, fundamentally. You are part of the world, always actively participating in it. One perceives that there's a difference between 'self' and 'other,' but 'self,' what you call yourself, and what you call 'other' are mutually necessary to each other, like back and front. They're really one vector of experience, but just as a magnet polarizes itself at north and south even though it's all one magnet, experience polarizes itself as self and other, even though it's all one. If you try to make the south pole defeat the north pole, or get mastery of it, you show you don't know what's going on.
And this is why Dio is a villain who, in spite of all his smug, cool airs, desperately seeks for an absolute control he will never have while Lain has everything he ever wanted in his wildest dreams yet does nothing at all with it. These are what these two characters, Dio and Lain, represent at the end of the day - from a narrative standpoint, the victor was clear from the get-go. No amount of style can save Dio from Lain, a character who, being a living allegory, was never meant to be in shounen fights in the first place and has absolutely zero limitations on her existential dickery to balance her out.
In this theoretical scenario, Heaven Ascension Dio must be tied to the collective unconsciousness/Protocol 7 (as any sapiant being would be) Lain's series postulates as well. Lain in her full power would know all about him instantly. Lain doesn't even have to allow him to exist in the first place if she feels he is necessarily so much of a threat to everyone, ever (and, being Dio with godike power, uh, he is) that she must intervene on behalf of humanity. Even if, say, D4C spontaneously brought HAD into a world where Lain exists and there is no feasible point of reference to suppose that Lain could predict the arrival of HAD, there is nothing - nothing - HAD can do even then, because Dio a) likely has no idea Lain exists in the first place and b) is still limited by the reflexes of a vampire and must go through the motions of activating his abilities. Lain does not have these limitations.
In my last post, I was reaching somewhat to find a scenario where Dio at full power could probably beat a crippled Lain. It's only possible because Dio has time, with his impressive intellect, to pull the plug on Protocol 7 before the situation becomes unwinnable for him. Even in that sequence of events, if Lain steps up her game due to being killed and figures out what's going on before HAD does, she still wins due to awakening and being able to rewrite reality without HAD being able to react in any way, shape, or form. Also in this scenario, I neglected to mention it because I just decided to assume he would win (and it's getting into a whole new topic), but Dio would have to go through another reality warping being with pretenses to godhood, Masami Eiri, in said being's home turf of the Wired; Eiri would defend Protocol 7. I would actually assert it's possible for Dio to lose this fight, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt because this is Lain vs. HAD, not HAD vs. Eiri.
Like I said, the match-up is flawed from the get-go. In a meaningful encounter, Lain trounces HAD. In a scenario specifically tailored to Dio winning, it's still basically a puzzle boss for him on the highest difficulty setting where he doesn't really fight Lain anyway.
In any case, in response to Sir Ovens, here's the thing about why HAD's infinite speed doesn't matter one bit to an awakened Lain: it's still restricted by his own consciousness. He must make the decision to activate The World Under Heaven. Why is this relevant? Because Lain after discovering her true nature knows Dio better than Dio himself does.
Bear with me here. I would like to draw a contrast between both these characters and what they represent narratively speaking.
To go off on a philosopical tangent, anyone familiar with Dio's character knows that the main seed of his motivation in every Part is to gain control of his own life; to this end he desires unconditional freedom, but Dio feels he is a constant victim of circumstance. He blames Johnathan for interfering in his own homicidal chicanery in Part 1 when he goes on a drinking binge. When confronted by the police later on, he chooses to become a vampire instead of going to jail; a century later, he mentions to someone that he knows the pain they're going through because he can't go out in the sunlight, which is obviously his own damn fault, but in his mind he had no choice.
Someone obsessed with control obviously feels the need to control those around them (hence his constant manipulation and intimidation of people throughout the series), but Dio goes beyond this. Because circumstances constantly contrive themselves to deprive him of the absolute control he craves (when really he's mostly bringing it all on himself by being "the worst man in the world"), he feels he will not be happy until he controls fate itself. That's "Heaven" to him - that's the entire reasoning behind the "Heaven" naming scheme.
And it's a bit sad, because despite the fact that he's admitted that gaining wealth, the physical power of a vampire, and the extraordinary power of his Stand didn't actually make him happy, it never occurs to Dio that his unlimited ambition and utter amorality are msguided. It never computes that his friendship with, say, Pucci, who he feels truly at ease and happy around, could be enough because he thinks people desire banal things like that just for the sake of peace of mind... which is exactly what he wants anyway, hence his entire spiel about how living means to conquer fear.
Now consider Lain in her awakened state. She has nearly limitless power. She has no defined weaknesses and what few limitations she actually has (for example, her reality warping is by default restricted to the terrestrial hemisphere) she can remove by altering the laws of physics with regards to Earth. She can warp reality instantly with no extraneous actions (no punches necessary) - it just happens. Her functional omnipresence/omniscience grants her potential knowledge of the precise location and course of everything in the world such that their past and future states for any given time are known to her. She can reset time at will. She can warp reality in any way she chooses to accomplish whatever she wants. More so than even Heaven Ascension Dio, she has control of fate itself.
Yet she chooses not to use it.
Lain is an entity of the collective unconsciousness. She is you, she is me, she is Dio - "she" isn't strictly correct, incidentally: it's merely a factor of how she's perceived based on her circumstantial manifestation. Her power is the power of a world made of many separate things - many separate individualities - flowing as one.
"No matter where you go, everybody's connected." Those are Lain's arc words. All people who act in the world affect other people who themselves affect ever more other people, creating a ripple of consequence. All people are the culmination of the totality of their experiences, their memories, their beliefs, and all of that is influenced by a neverending chain of conditions arising from human interaction. This cannot be avoided.
This is the ideal of Lain when applied to Dio Brando: The moment you hypothesize that you are different from the world, you want to get one up on it, but if you try to get one up on the world and you're in competition with it, that means you don't understand you ARE it, fundamentally. You are part of the world, always actively participating in it. One perceives that there's a difference between 'self' and 'other,' but 'self,' what you call yourself, and what you call 'other' are mutually necessary to each other, like back and front. They're really one vector of experience, but just as a magnet polarizes itself at north and south even though it's all one magnet, experience polarizes itself as self and other, even though it's all one. If you try to make the south pole defeat the north pole, or get mastery of it, you show you don't know what's going on.
And this is why Dio is a villain who, in spite of all his smug, cool airs, desperately seeks for an absolute control he will never have while Lain has everything he ever wanted in his wildest dreams yet does nothing at all with it. These are what these two characters, Dio and Lain, represent at the end of the day - from a narrative standpoint, the victor was clear from the get-go. No amount of style can save Dio from Lain, a character who, being a living allegory, was never meant to be in shounen fights in the first place and has absolutely zero limitations on her existential dickery to balance her out.
In this theoretical scenario, Heaven Ascension Dio must be tied to the collective unconsciousness/Protocol 7 (as any sapiant being would be) Lain's series postulates as well. Lain in her full power would know all about him instantly. Lain doesn't even have to allow him to exist in the first place if she feels he is necessarily so much of a threat to everyone, ever (and, being Dio with godike power, uh, he is) that she must intervene on behalf of humanity. Even if, say, D4C spontaneously brought HAD into a world where Lain exists and there is no feasible point of reference to suppose that Lain could predict the arrival of HAD, there is nothing - nothing - HAD can do even then, because Dio a) likely has no idea Lain exists in the first place and b) is still limited by the reflexes of a vampire and must go through the motions of activating his abilities. Lain does not have these limitations.
In my last post, I was reaching somewhat to find a scenario where Dio at full power could probably beat a crippled Lain. It's only possible because Dio has time, with his impressive intellect, to pull the plug on Protocol 7 before the situation becomes unwinnable for him. Even in that sequence of events, if Lain steps up her game due to being killed and figures out what's going on before HAD does, she still wins due to awakening and being able to rewrite reality without HAD being able to react in any way, shape, or form. Also in this scenario, I neglected to mention it because I just decided to assume he would win (and it's getting into a whole new topic), but Dio would have to go through another reality warping being with pretenses to godhood, Masami Eiri, in said being's home turf of the Wired; Eiri would defend Protocol 7. I would actually assert it's possible for Dio to lose this fight, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt because this is Lain vs. HAD, not HAD vs. Eiri.
Like I said, the match-up is flawed from the get-go. In a meaningful encounter, Lain trounces HAD. In a scenario specifically tailored to Dio winning, it's still basically a puzzle boss for him on the highest difficulty setting where he doesn't really fight Lain anyway.
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People who vote for Dio just because they think he's cooler are seriously missing the point of a power level discussion.
Don't worry, their votes won't be counted.
Don't worry, their votes won't be counted.
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TBH I think DIO could overwrite anything lain does. Plus he has infinite timestop. If anyone can prove that lain could combat these two things. I will gladly swap votes to lain.
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I already proved it, dude. Please read everything I wrote above. But if you're lazy: Lain's reality warping is absolutely instantaneous and she already knows everything that could happen in this fight. She doesn't even have to let Dio ever be born. Assuming she does let Dio be born and allows him to attain his dream of possessing the ultimate stand in The World Under Heaven, Heaven Ascension Dio still has to take certain actions (i.e. activating his Stand verbally and punching objects to rewrite reality) to initiate his abilities; Lain has no such limitations and can simply erase him from existence. It is important to acknowledge that HAD's relevant abilities require that conditions be fulfilled before they can be activated, whereas Lain's essentially occur faster than sentient thought.
Even if Dio did manage to activate The World Under Heaven and froze time, an awakened Lain can act through Dio's own mind, which remains unfrozen, due to her innate connection to him as a sentient being.
Even if Dio did manage to activate The World Under Heaven and froze time, an awakened Lain can act through Dio's own mind, which remains unfrozen, due to her innate connection to him as a sentient being.
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Massive shit stomp
Literally, from what I read from the profile, Lain has no protection from Soul Manipulation and not only that, DIO Has attack nullification and Resistance to reality warping WHICH MAKES LAIN 2C
Mismatch
To all of you saying that Lain would wipe DIO Out before she knew him. It doesn't work like that since they aren't even from the same series so they wouldn't have prior Knowledge, so your statement is irrelevant. This guy can also rewrite the fundamentals of existence
Someone close this
Literally, from what I read from the profile, Lain has no protection from Soul Manipulation and not only that, DIO Has attack nullification and Resistance to reality warping WHICH MAKES LAIN 2C
Mismatch
To all of you saying that Lain would wipe DIO Out before she knew him. It doesn't work like that since they aren't even from the same series so they wouldn't have prior Knowledge, so your statement is irrelevant. This guy can also rewrite the fundamentals of existence
Someone close this
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I shall explain it once again as concisely as I can.
Heaven Ascension Dio must fulfill prior conditions to activate his reality warping, i.e. physical contact. He can freeze time indefinitely with his Stand, giving him ample opportunity to bridge distances and make physical contact and alter the world as he desires, but he must consciously activate this ability. His reflexes are far superior to an average human, so there is usually no exploiting the miniscule gap between him being in a neutral state and him consciously activating The World Over Heaven, freezing time so he may act with impunity.
Lain can warp reality instantly with no range limitations and no necessary conditions, period. Her thinking/reaction speed is faster than any Jojo vampire's; she simply does not need to act on an anthropomorphic time scale, even if she is emotionally invested at that level.
Lain has all of HAD's abilities but better. The outcome should already be obvious. This is the end of my concise argument - the rest of this post is me putting nails in the coffin.
As she is tied to all consciousnesses populating Earth (including Dio's) and is aware of all preceeding and proceeding events occuring on the planet from whatever given point in time she has manifested in (because knowledge of preceeding events allows her to calculate the nature of all proceeding events on the basis of causality) she knows Dio could be born and can just... have HAD never occur. While manifested in a human form, she has been demonstrated freezing time as an extension of her reality warping, but unlike HAD this doesn't even necessarily faciliate anything since she can just automatically warp reality instanteously in the first place.
Did I mention she can just instantly read Dio's mind and know his entire identity because she technically is him? Because Lain's series is a weird mediative psychological horror cyberpunk sci-fi series where they explore philosophical ideas like that. Oh, and she can use this aspect of her existence to hijack people's minds or make them go insane.
Out of the infinite scenarios a fair 1v1 fight - where both characters are at their highest degree of power, are at peak condition, and begin at a neutral, default state - could go, I assert that Lain would win every single contest. I ask you to think of a single scenario, given the above, where HAD stands any sort of chance.
Have a text wall: As I noted in one of my previous posts, the only comparable scenarios I can think of where HAD has a chance of victory is if Lain is at a disadvantage, i.e. she is still under the impression she is a teenage girl and not a functionally omniscient, omnipotent being. The only scenario where HAD even has the remotest chance of victory against an awakened Lain is if D4C or some other multiverse-crossing power brought HAD into a given world line and he entered while TWOH was already active and thus time was frozen the instant he entered (granted we have little precedence to know if the idea of TWUH remaining active across alternative realities would even work); in this case, HAD may have a chance to alter the world to erase Lain. As should be obvious, this is a furiously contrived and nonsensical scenario: how does HAD even know Lain exists such that he can alter the world to remove her? If he doesn't know, it'd have to be completely by accident. And you could just as easily say that Lain is still active though Dio's consciousness even if he enters while time is frozen because of the way her existence works - in theory, she's still active within him and can just hijack his mind.
Now, I would like to address this statement by Koopi: "From what I read from the profile."
And therein lies the rub. You simply don't actually understand what Lain is capable of because you have never watched her series and are simply assuming based on what confirms your biases the best. I have been a fan of both series for many years now; I hate to make an appeal to authority, but who is more fit to judge, someone who has enjoyed both works or someone who has no interest in one work and simply votes based off the fandom they belong to?
Episode 24 of Diamond is Unbreakable recently aired, adapting the scene of Kira getting OCD over Koichi's inside-out sock. "Doesn't that bug him? Ugh, it sure bugs me!" That's me right now. Willful ignorance is the inside-out sock to my time-wasting compulsion to discuss the power levels of fictional characters on the Internet. But I digress.
To be perfectly blunt, I like DIO aesthetically more than Lain. But that's not what this is about. This is about comparative degrees of power. And those who vote based on popularity defeat this exercise to everyone's detriment.
Heaven Ascension Dio must fulfill prior conditions to activate his reality warping, i.e. physical contact. He can freeze time indefinitely with his Stand, giving him ample opportunity to bridge distances and make physical contact and alter the world as he desires, but he must consciously activate this ability. His reflexes are far superior to an average human, so there is usually no exploiting the miniscule gap between him being in a neutral state and him consciously activating The World Over Heaven, freezing time so he may act with impunity.
Lain can warp reality instantly with no range limitations and no necessary conditions, period. Her thinking/reaction speed is faster than any Jojo vampire's; she simply does not need to act on an anthropomorphic time scale, even if she is emotionally invested at that level.
Lain has all of HAD's abilities but better. The outcome should already be obvious. This is the end of my concise argument - the rest of this post is me putting nails in the coffin.
As she is tied to all consciousnesses populating Earth (including Dio's) and is aware of all preceeding and proceeding events occuring on the planet from whatever given point in time she has manifested in (because knowledge of preceeding events allows her to calculate the nature of all proceeding events on the basis of causality) she knows Dio could be born and can just... have HAD never occur. While manifested in a human form, she has been demonstrated freezing time as an extension of her reality warping, but unlike HAD this doesn't even necessarily faciliate anything since she can just automatically warp reality instanteously in the first place.
Did I mention she can just instantly read Dio's mind and know his entire identity because she technically is him? Because Lain's series is a weird mediative psychological horror cyberpunk sci-fi series where they explore philosophical ideas like that. Oh, and she can use this aspect of her existence to hijack people's minds or make them go insane.
Out of the infinite scenarios a fair 1v1 fight - where both characters are at their highest degree of power, are at peak condition, and begin at a neutral, default state - could go, I assert that Lain would win every single contest. I ask you to think of a single scenario, given the above, where HAD stands any sort of chance.
Have a text wall: As I noted in one of my previous posts, the only comparable scenarios I can think of where HAD has a chance of victory is if Lain is at a disadvantage, i.e. she is still under the impression she is a teenage girl and not a functionally omniscient, omnipotent being. The only scenario where HAD even has the remotest chance of victory against an awakened Lain is if D4C or some other multiverse-crossing power brought HAD into a given world line and he entered while TWOH was already active and thus time was frozen the instant he entered (granted we have little precedence to know if the idea of TWUH remaining active across alternative realities would even work); in this case, HAD may have a chance to alter the world to erase Lain. As should be obvious, this is a furiously contrived and nonsensical scenario: how does HAD even know Lain exists such that he can alter the world to remove her? If he doesn't know, it'd have to be completely by accident. And you could just as easily say that Lain is still active though Dio's consciousness even if he enters while time is frozen because of the way her existence works - in theory, she's still active within him and can just hijack his mind.
Now, I would like to address this statement by Koopi: "From what I read from the profile."
And therein lies the rub. You simply don't actually understand what Lain is capable of because you have never watched her series and are simply assuming based on what confirms your biases the best. I have been a fan of both series for many years now; I hate to make an appeal to authority, but who is more fit to judge, someone who has enjoyed both works or someone who has no interest in one work and simply votes based off the fandom they belong to?
Episode 24 of Diamond is Unbreakable recently aired, adapting the scene of Kira getting OCD over Koichi's inside-out sock. "Doesn't that bug him? Ugh, it sure bugs me!" That's me right now. Willful ignorance is the inside-out sock to my time-wasting compulsion to discuss the power levels of fictional characters on the Internet. But I digress.
To be perfectly blunt, I like DIO aesthetically more than Lain. But that's not what this is about. This is about comparative degrees of power. And those who vote based on popularity defeat this exercise to everyone's detriment.
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Lain has no range limit, what is this. On her profile, she's Universal+
Not only that, DIO has Reality Overwrite, meaning he can Warp Lain out of existence Dammit.
Is Lain Omnipresent on a 4D Scale or 3D.... If she isn't on the 4D Scale, massive stomp
When did she have ties with DIO, they aren't even from the same verse *Facepalm*
Not only that, Lain isn't even Multiverse according to her profile, she's just Universal+ so....
I'm not trying to be rude but it just sounds like you are trying to make Lain make DIO look like a bug due to all the Multiverse statements even doe she's Universe+
Clearly, if she's "Capable" of such stuff. Do a revision thread on it or this is all just wank because most of this is just simply "wank".
Not only that, DIO has Reality Overwrite, meaning he can Warp Lain out of existence Dammit.
Is Lain Omnipresent on a 4D Scale or 3D.... If she isn't on the 4D Scale, massive stomp
When did she have ties with DIO, they aren't even from the same verse *Facepalm*
Not only that, Lain isn't even Multiverse according to her profile, she's just Universal+ so....
I'm not trying to be rude but it just sounds like you are trying to make Lain make DIO look like a bug due to all the Multiverse statements even doe she's Universe+
Clearly, if she's "Capable" of such stuff. Do a revision thread on it or this is all just wank because most of this is just simply "wank".
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I will approach each of your assertions with an exhaustive explanation of why it just ain't so.
1) Lain has no range limit on the planet Earth by default. Her existence is tied (at least initially) to a real life phenomenon known as Schumann resonances. Schumann resonances are extremely low frequency resonances in Earth's electromagnetic field spectrum - in other words, they are present globally. In the setting of Serial Experiments Lain, there exists a globally pervasive Internet-esque system which human beings can access directly with their minds as a consensual hallucination called the Wired. This is initially done with specific devices (called NAVIs), but Schumann resonance is harnessed by SEL's antagonist (Eiri Masami) using something called Protocol 7 (which can essentially be compared to an extremely advanced Internet Protocol for the Wired) to allow people to connect directly to the Wired anywhere in the world without the use of a device.
Lain is originally tied to and spawned from the Wired - indeed, all of humanity is tied to the Wired by the beginning of the series, which is the original basis for Lain's connection to all of humanity. By the end of the series, Lain undergoes an expansion of consciousness similar to a technological singularity which allows her to transcend the Wired and advance to become a being outside the bounds of conventional time and space. This is all relevant to the fight at hand because Lain is by default functionally omnipresent on the planet Earth (hence the epithet "An Omnipresence in Wired"). She knows everything that has, is, and will occur on Earth and can rewrite the laws of physics using her reality warping abilities so that her perception and influence covers the entire universe (or, in a multiversal sense, the entirety of the universe she exists within).
2a) Lain also has reality overwrite. The climax of Serial Experiments Lain is literally her resetting the entire universe to be the way she wants it to be, removing the infrastructure that manifested her in the first place and erasing herself as a direct actor in the world to exist only as a mostly impartial observer, while going back in time to before the series started. This happened instantaneously and she merely decided to do it, so it happened. No punching necessary. Which is incidentally one of the reasons why this fight is somewhat bizarre - Lain would probably never let HAD exist in the first place, hence me having to construct a scenario where HAD is capable of winning in my first post.
2b) On that note, I have acknowledged multiple times throughout all of my posts that HAD is, in fact, capable of erasing Lain with his reality revising abilities, though he'd have a little difficulty figuring out what he's actually targetting. This was never in question. Rather, my constant assertion was that he would never get the opportunity to use this ability unless Lain was at her weakest state and unconscious of her own powers. In other words, this is battle of reality overwriting rocket tag where the first character to erase the other wins; regarding a straight up fair fight, I have already explained why Lain's reality overwriting abilities are superior. They are more efficient and have absolutely no limitations in activation or reach.
3) The question of Lain's functional omnipresence and omniscience. Lain as an existence is not necessarily anthropomorphic, but she chooses to physically manifest as a human being due to events in her anime series which granted her unending sympathy for human beings. At the end of SEL, Lain manifests at a specific point in the timeline and chooses to watch over the Earth from that point (you might call it her avatar, but she doesn't interact with the world using it - it's merely a vector of perception), but is aware of all events on the time axis and can alter them as she sees fit as well as manifest at any point on that time axis. Incidentally, I've been taking for granted that awakened Lain's "default state" is experiencing time causally as I described in the last sentence and this is how she begins a fight with HAD.
4a) Lain's connection to Dio. Dio is a sentient being (not quite human, of course, but previously so) who exists on the planet Earth, therefore is coterminous with Schumann resonance, therefore is capable of accessing the Wired, therefore is vulnerable to being mentally affected by even a not-fully-awakened Lain before she becomes independent of the Wired. By the end of SEL, Lain is a self-sufficient psychical entity who can simply hijack human minds if she wants as she is born of the collective unconsciousness (as I mentioned in previous posts). In a theoretical conflict, if HAD began existence as regular Dio within the same universe as Lain, then he is already connected to Lain as he contributes to the collective unconsciousness. That's just how it works. Alternatively, if HAD comes from an alternate universe and waltzes into Lain's Earth somehow (say, via D4C), then he becomes part of the collective unconsciousness upon setting foot on said Earth.
4b) For this fight to occur, we must take for granted that Lain's backstory and Dio's backstory have both occured. Neither character exists in a vacuum isolated from the factors which created them and their powers work in specific ways. The basic principle is that both of these characters suddenly encounter one another and fight - how they met doesn't have to be explained, but if they don't function how they're portrayed in the source material, this exercise has no meaning. There are, of course, occasionally matters of interpretation, but we should always be as objective as possible.
5) Lain's influence has only ever been demonstrated to apply to a single universe, granted she was able to completely redefine it and essentially mold it into an entirely new one instanteously. There is nothing to confirm or deny that she can jump to other universes - that is outside the context of her series. She never tries and is concerned only with her own universe. Given the way her powers work and how she's advanced to a state of being where she can essentially do anything, one might presume she can, but again, there is no precedence, so it should not be considered a factor. More pointedly, Lain has no motivation to ever jump universes and interfere with another one, especially since she generally take a stance of non-interference.
6a) "It just sounds like you are trying to make Lain make DIO look like a bug[...]"
Not my words. I even considered stating in the previous post "as far as shounen fights where characters are even capable of being defeated are concerned, HAD is the crème de la crème." He is outright able to do anything... within the rules set upon him to do so. Which is really what it comes down to - HAD's rules for doing anything are more restrictive than Lain's rules for doing anything. Lain is a philosophical statement you can't really fight; HAD is meant to be an overwhelming, but ultimately defeatable antagonist and it shows - he still needs time to collect soul energy, Jotaro is able to catch him off guard by shrugging off "his hands which create truth," and he's ultimately defeated by laws (preestablished earlier in the canon) which are a "fundamental part of existence" (i.e. two of the same person from different world lines can't co-exist). In the end, HAD does what Dio always does when he's cornered and resorts to a cheap trick out of desperation and then gets ORAORAORA'd. HAD is defeatable by people who do not even really share his absurd level of power and in this situation he's going up against someone stronger than he is. How can people ignore this unless they have no idea what they're talking about?
Honestly, who are you kidding, man? I love DIO. He's a god damn fabulous antagonist. He has an exceptional degree of depth and is stylish as all hell. He's popular for good reason. But being objective? He doesn't stand a chance. He has godlike abilities, but Lain has more godlike abilities than he does.
6b) "due to all the Multiverse statements[...]"
I have never ascribed multiverse properties to Lain. She acts within a single universe and, with no evidence to the contary, is able to alter that universe and what occurs within it on a grand scale without creating alternate timelines. Multiverse-crossing only ever got brought in with D4C 'or some other multiverse-crossing power'.
7) maybe someday when I can be bothered, but it'd just be making that profile more detailed/specific
Interesting you should call this wank, though, when I have gone out of my way to explain exactly how each character's powers work and why the match-up goes the way it does while all of the people supporting HAD barely give any sort of argument beyond 'HAD too stronk, HAD do this thing and win'. They just assume Lain can't stop what he does even though they don't know the first thing about Lain.
1) Lain has no range limit on the planet Earth by default. Her existence is tied (at least initially) to a real life phenomenon known as Schumann resonances. Schumann resonances are extremely low frequency resonances in Earth's electromagnetic field spectrum - in other words, they are present globally. In the setting of Serial Experiments Lain, there exists a globally pervasive Internet-esque system which human beings can access directly with their minds as a consensual hallucination called the Wired. This is initially done with specific devices (called NAVIs), but Schumann resonance is harnessed by SEL's antagonist (Eiri Masami) using something called Protocol 7 (which can essentially be compared to an extremely advanced Internet Protocol for the Wired) to allow people to connect directly to the Wired anywhere in the world without the use of a device.
Lain is originally tied to and spawned from the Wired - indeed, all of humanity is tied to the Wired by the beginning of the series, which is the original basis for Lain's connection to all of humanity. By the end of the series, Lain undergoes an expansion of consciousness similar to a technological singularity which allows her to transcend the Wired and advance to become a being outside the bounds of conventional time and space. This is all relevant to the fight at hand because Lain is by default functionally omnipresent on the planet Earth (hence the epithet "An Omnipresence in Wired"). She knows everything that has, is, and will occur on Earth and can rewrite the laws of physics using her reality warping abilities so that her perception and influence covers the entire universe (or, in a multiversal sense, the entirety of the universe she exists within).
2a) Lain also has reality overwrite. The climax of Serial Experiments Lain is literally her resetting the entire universe to be the way she wants it to be, removing the infrastructure that manifested her in the first place and erasing herself as a direct actor in the world to exist only as a mostly impartial observer, while going back in time to before the series started. This happened instantaneously and she merely decided to do it, so it happened. No punching necessary. Which is incidentally one of the reasons why this fight is somewhat bizarre - Lain would probably never let HAD exist in the first place, hence me having to construct a scenario where HAD is capable of winning in my first post.
2b) On that note, I have acknowledged multiple times throughout all of my posts that HAD is, in fact, capable of erasing Lain with his reality revising abilities, though he'd have a little difficulty figuring out what he's actually targetting. This was never in question. Rather, my constant assertion was that he would never get the opportunity to use this ability unless Lain was at her weakest state and unconscious of her own powers. In other words, this is battle of reality overwriting rocket tag where the first character to erase the other wins; regarding a straight up fair fight, I have already explained why Lain's reality overwriting abilities are superior. They are more efficient and have absolutely no limitations in activation or reach.
3) The question of Lain's functional omnipresence and omniscience. Lain as an existence is not necessarily anthropomorphic, but she chooses to physically manifest as a human being due to events in her anime series which granted her unending sympathy for human beings. At the end of SEL, Lain manifests at a specific point in the timeline and chooses to watch over the Earth from that point (you might call it her avatar, but she doesn't interact with the world using it - it's merely a vector of perception), but is aware of all events on the time axis and can alter them as she sees fit as well as manifest at any point on that time axis. Incidentally, I've been taking for granted that awakened Lain's "default state" is experiencing time causally as I described in the last sentence and this is how she begins a fight with HAD.
4a) Lain's connection to Dio. Dio is a sentient being (not quite human, of course, but previously so) who exists on the planet Earth, therefore is coterminous with Schumann resonance, therefore is capable of accessing the Wired, therefore is vulnerable to being mentally affected by even a not-fully-awakened Lain before she becomes independent of the Wired. By the end of SEL, Lain is a self-sufficient psychical entity who can simply hijack human minds if she wants as she is born of the collective unconsciousness (as I mentioned in previous posts). In a theoretical conflict, if HAD began existence as regular Dio within the same universe as Lain, then he is already connected to Lain as he contributes to the collective unconsciousness. That's just how it works. Alternatively, if HAD comes from an alternate universe and waltzes into Lain's Earth somehow (say, via D4C), then he becomes part of the collective unconsciousness upon setting foot on said Earth.
4b) For this fight to occur, we must take for granted that Lain's backstory and Dio's backstory have both occured. Neither character exists in a vacuum isolated from the factors which created them and their powers work in specific ways. The basic principle is that both of these characters suddenly encounter one another and fight - how they met doesn't have to be explained, but if they don't function how they're portrayed in the source material, this exercise has no meaning. There are, of course, occasionally matters of interpretation, but we should always be as objective as possible.
5) Lain's influence has only ever been demonstrated to apply to a single universe, granted she was able to completely redefine it and essentially mold it into an entirely new one instanteously. There is nothing to confirm or deny that she can jump to other universes - that is outside the context of her series. She never tries and is concerned only with her own universe. Given the way her powers work and how she's advanced to a state of being where she can essentially do anything, one might presume she can, but again, there is no precedence, so it should not be considered a factor. More pointedly, Lain has no motivation to ever jump universes and interfere with another one, especially since she generally take a stance of non-interference.
6a) "It just sounds like you are trying to make Lain make DIO look like a bug[...]"
Not my words. I even considered stating in the previous post "as far as shounen fights where characters are even capable of being defeated are concerned, HAD is the crème de la crème." He is outright able to do anything... within the rules set upon him to do so. Which is really what it comes down to - HAD's rules for doing anything are more restrictive than Lain's rules for doing anything. Lain is a philosophical statement you can't really fight; HAD is meant to be an overwhelming, but ultimately defeatable antagonist and it shows - he still needs time to collect soul energy, Jotaro is able to catch him off guard by shrugging off "his hands which create truth," and he's ultimately defeated by laws (preestablished earlier in the canon) which are a "fundamental part of existence" (i.e. two of the same person from different world lines can't co-exist). In the end, HAD does what Dio always does when he's cornered and resorts to a cheap trick out of desperation and then gets ORAORAORA'd. HAD is defeatable by people who do not even really share his absurd level of power and in this situation he's going up against someone stronger than he is. How can people ignore this unless they have no idea what they're talking about?
Honestly, who are you kidding, man? I love DIO. He's a god damn fabulous antagonist. He has an exceptional degree of depth and is stylish as all hell. He's popular for good reason. But being objective? He doesn't stand a chance. He has godlike abilities, but Lain has more godlike abilities than he does.
6b) "due to all the Multiverse statements[...]"
I have never ascribed multiverse properties to Lain. She acts within a single universe and, with no evidence to the contary, is able to alter that universe and what occurs within it on a grand scale without creating alternate timelines. Multiverse-crossing only ever got brought in with D4C 'or some other multiverse-crossing power'.
7) maybe someday when I can be bothered, but it'd just be making that profile more detailed/specific
Interesting you should call this wank, though, when I have gone out of my way to explain exactly how each character's powers work and why the match-up goes the way it does while all of the people supporting HAD barely give any sort of argument beyond 'HAD too stronk, HAD do this thing and win'. They just assume Lain can't stop what he does even though they don't know the first thing about Lain.
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1 The battle isn't on Battle earth so that statement is irreverent. Like where did you get that the battle was on EARTH?
2 If they both have reality Overwrite, Why do you talk like Lain has high reality warping powers. She might be Universal+ via Reality warping but so is DIO. Jesus
3. You know... To be Omniscient you can only know your universe. You don't have to know other verses....
4a DIO is a vampire last time I checked, Lain only knows stuff from her universe so that statement is quickly invalid, never stated about other worlds as in, other verses.
5 Ok STOP. It was stated, by that logic Tsuna is FTL Because it's "Stated". I'm sorry but she isn't Omnipotent. Does Anything? Sounds like you're talking about Omnipotency. She hasn't just shown it so don't judge the fight on speculation.
6 The characters aren't bloodlust and I'm going to assume that They are using both characters at their strongest meaning I pretty sure they will use him With the soles.
You're literally using restricted DIO and using Full power Lain. Fair to but them both full powered.
I haven't watched much of Jojo Bizarre believe it or not XD.
7. Explained.... Maybe you should just make a Revision or an calculation thread
2 If they both have reality Overwrite, Why do you talk like Lain has high reality warping powers. She might be Universal+ via Reality warping but so is DIO. Jesus
3. You know... To be Omniscient you can only know your universe. You don't have to know other verses....
4a DIO is a vampire last time I checked, Lain only knows stuff from her universe so that statement is quickly invalid, never stated about other worlds as in, other verses.
5 Ok STOP. It was stated, by that logic Tsuna is FTL Because it's "Stated". I'm sorry but she isn't Omnipotent. Does Anything? Sounds like you're talking about Omnipotency. She hasn't just shown it so don't judge the fight on speculation.
6 The characters aren't bloodlust and I'm going to assume that They are using both characters at their strongest meaning I pretty sure they will use him With the soles.
You're literally using restricted DIO and using Full power Lain. Fair to but them both full powered.
I haven't watched much of Jojo Bizarre believe it or not XD.
7. Explained.... Maybe you should just make a Revision or an calculation thread
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Koopi, you must learn reading comprehension, because you have consistently misinterpreted eveything I've said and are arguing against something I am not asserting. Whether intentionally or not, too much of what you're saying is a strawman argument and you are not even bothering to tackle the actual questions I've posed. You aren't really accomplishing anything.
1) I was explaining the origin of Lain's powers. The paragraph notes where they come from and how they progress to a stage where Lain can project them outside of Earth. It seems to me that you just read the opening couple sentences and then just decided to stop, assuming that I was leaning on the Earth for determining Lain's overall strength. The paragraph makes no explicit supposition that the battle will necessarily occur on Earth, it only says that by the very nature of her character, Lain must spawn from Earth initially (the same can be said of HAD). You will note that I use the words "initially" and "originally" constantly throughout that paragraph because I am talking about a beginning state.
Even so, now that it has been brought into consideration, there are, in fact, reasons to assume that the battle occurs on Earth. After all, both characters initially hail from Earth before attaining apotheosis and both characters primarily care about Earth, even if their influence potentially extends beyond that. It's easy to imagine a "battle for control of the planet" scenario for both characters, since DIO would desire absolute control and Lain would want to protect the planet from his sociopathic influence.
Regardless of that potential scenario, however, I've been making general, blanket statements about how a battle would go. Lain and HAD fighting off of Earth in any scenario entails that Lain has warped the properties of physics in that universe/dimensional space to accommodate her presence and anything she could initially do on Earth she could do there. In other words, if Lain can even show up, she's already won.
Which brings us to the nature of HAD's pretty purple interval plane in which he fights the Jojo protagonists (and most notably shrugs away Tusk ACT 4 and GER). To be honest, we don't know exactly what this place is and DIO is super vague about its nature, attributing the protagonists getting drawn into it and encountering him to the Corpse Parts wanting to meet (but he could be speaking poetically). If this plane is just sort of there, then everything I noted in my previous paragraph continues to apply, granted Lain has no reason to go there. If this plane was created by HAD himself, then... Lain still has no reason to ever go there; she doesn't care what he does in his personal world. But DIO does have a reason to leave: the satisfaction of domination (of the root universe in particular, going by Eyes of Heaven). At the end of the day, though, this place exists so there's a cool place to introduce/fight HAD.
The word you're looking for is "irrelevant," not "irreverent," by the way.
2) Lain's reality warping is faster than HAD's and thus occurs before he can use his. If he is instantly erased from existence in this fashion without being able to act, he loses. This is not a hard concept to grasp.
Since you seem to be mostly going by HAD's profile on this wiki, allow me to quote: "He is a glass cannon of sorts as he only gained god-like powers, but not having god-like physical capabilities."
Lain is a transcendent thoughtform who manifests in any form she wants and instantly resets everything in her universe on a whim. HAD is Part 3 DIO with infinite timestop (The World) and "hands which create truth" (Over Heaven); he may very well be stronger physically and more durable than Part 3 DIO, but the point is his body is Part 3 DIO's body - a corporeal form. Lain displays none of the limitations that HAD consistently does throughout Eyes of Heaven, even in the final battle after collecting every Saint Corpse Part. If HAD had Lain's level of reality warping, then Eyes of Heaven simply couldn't have happened because HAD would just win and that'd be that. He clearly doesn't work that way, though.
3) What are you even trying to say here? Are you implying HAD is also omniscient? Because he blatantly isn't. He gets caught off guard numerous times throughout Eyes of Heaven (even after he has all the Corpse Parts). Otherwise, I have always ascribed "functional omnipresence, omniscience, and omnipotence" to Lain because all of these terms, taken literally, are technically paradoxes - if you know all things or exist in all places, you can't know if you don't know something or if there's a place you don't exist within beyond your knowledge; nothing can be truly omnipotent because then they'd be subject to the "can they create a rock they can't lift?" paradox. When I ascribe "functional omnipresence/omniscience/omnipotence" to Lain, I am saying "she basically exists everywhere within the universe/she knows all things past, present, and future in the universe/she can alter everything to be exactly the way she wants it to be with a thought."
4a) It doesn't matter if he is specifically a human, simply a being with consciousness. Did I not make this clear enough? I wouldn't have included him under the effect if there was any evidence to assume Jojo Vampires would not be affected by Protocol 7. They are conscious beings who exist in the same evolutionary path as other sentient lifeforms, as Kars so aptly demonstrates.
5) See, this is where I realized you have no idea what I'm talking about. I am outright saying in this section that Lain cannot be considered to hop universes: even if she theoretically could, it's not demonstrated and it is out of character for her to do that, so let's not go there. I am blatantly saying not to judge the fight on this idea. I am unsure how to communicate this to you better, because I said this in plain English.
6) I have been taking into account HAD with the souls/Holy Corpse throughout my comments. This section was merely pointing out to you how HAD was an intrinsically defeatable antagonist with limitations.
"I haven't watched much of Jojo Bizarre believe it or not XD."
Alright. You have not watched SEL, but have you not at least watched Eye of Heaven's cutscenes, let alone played it? Because if not... Pray tell, why are you here, then? Why do you think you have anything meaningful to contribute to this discussion?
If you are basing your arguments entirely off of what's in their profiles (second hand accounts as opposed to, you know, actually knowing either series in any decent capacity), let me just quote some things for you from those profiles.
Lain: "Strong Reality Warping (she could reset the universe whenever she wanted)"
HAD: "As Heaven DIO's reality overwrite is centered around the use of his/TWOH's hands, he must punch someone or something in order to warp it out of existence."
Why are you having so much difficulty with this concept? Please answer this question or none of your arguments hold weight. Lain's reality warping is instantaneous and covers any feasible combat arena. HAD's reality overwrite demands he punch something. You keep ignoring this clear and blatant divergence in power. Why? Tell me. Explain to me how "Lain thinks it away instantly with the calculative efficiency of a divine supercomputer" is not superior to "DIO or The World must punch something to trigger Over Heaven" when Dio's only out is activating The World's timestop ability, which he must do consciously through his limited (if vampiric) reflexes/thoughtspeed, meaning Lain is still quicker on the draw. How are you failing to comprehend this?
And hell. Jotaro can act within time stop because he's got time stop. Lain has time stop too. I kept forgetting to mention this point because I thought it was irrelevant to the fact that Lain can just delete HAD, but it's worth noting, I guess. Well... there's another compatibility issue: Jotaro's time freeze is a Stand power, so unless it was immediately relevant, I didn't want to take into deep consideration whether only Stand-based time freeze followed the rules that Star Platinum and The World do, which leads into the question of how similar Lain's powers and Stand powers (Ghost Ripple) really are - I mean, they both essentially derive from fundamentally psychical abilities. But like I thought before, this topic is all something of a digression when Lain can just poof HAD.
It's souls, by the way, not soles. Soles refer to the underside of your shoes. HAD has pretty pimpin' footwear, granted, but I don't think it helps him much here.
7) I have already demonstrated to you how, even taking into consideration the profiles, Lain still wins. It's not necessary for the purposes of this fight.
1) I was explaining the origin of Lain's powers. The paragraph notes where they come from and how they progress to a stage where Lain can project them outside of Earth. It seems to me that you just read the opening couple sentences and then just decided to stop, assuming that I was leaning on the Earth for determining Lain's overall strength. The paragraph makes no explicit supposition that the battle will necessarily occur on Earth, it only says that by the very nature of her character, Lain must spawn from Earth initially (the same can be said of HAD). You will note that I use the words "initially" and "originally" constantly throughout that paragraph because I am talking about a beginning state.
Even so, now that it has been brought into consideration, there are, in fact, reasons to assume that the battle occurs on Earth. After all, both characters initially hail from Earth before attaining apotheosis and both characters primarily care about Earth, even if their influence potentially extends beyond that. It's easy to imagine a "battle for control of the planet" scenario for both characters, since DIO would desire absolute control and Lain would want to protect the planet from his sociopathic influence.
Regardless of that potential scenario, however, I've been making general, blanket statements about how a battle would go. Lain and HAD fighting off of Earth in any scenario entails that Lain has warped the properties of physics in that universe/dimensional space to accommodate her presence and anything she could initially do on Earth she could do there. In other words, if Lain can even show up, she's already won.
Which brings us to the nature of HAD's pretty purple interval plane in which he fights the Jojo protagonists (and most notably shrugs away Tusk ACT 4 and GER). To be honest, we don't know exactly what this place is and DIO is super vague about its nature, attributing the protagonists getting drawn into it and encountering him to the Corpse Parts wanting to meet (but he could be speaking poetically). If this plane is just sort of there, then everything I noted in my previous paragraph continues to apply, granted Lain has no reason to go there. If this plane was created by HAD himself, then... Lain still has no reason to ever go there; she doesn't care what he does in his personal world. But DIO does have a reason to leave: the satisfaction of domination (of the root universe in particular, going by Eyes of Heaven). At the end of the day, though, this place exists so there's a cool place to introduce/fight HAD.
The word you're looking for is "irrelevant," not "irreverent," by the way.
2) Lain's reality warping is faster than HAD's and thus occurs before he can use his. If he is instantly erased from existence in this fashion without being able to act, he loses. This is not a hard concept to grasp.
Since you seem to be mostly going by HAD's profile on this wiki, allow me to quote: "He is a glass cannon of sorts as he only gained god-like powers, but not having god-like physical capabilities."
Lain is a transcendent thoughtform who manifests in any form she wants and instantly resets everything in her universe on a whim. HAD is Part 3 DIO with infinite timestop (The World) and "hands which create truth" (Over Heaven); he may very well be stronger physically and more durable than Part 3 DIO, but the point is his body is Part 3 DIO's body - a corporeal form. Lain displays none of the limitations that HAD consistently does throughout Eyes of Heaven, even in the final battle after collecting every Saint Corpse Part. If HAD had Lain's level of reality warping, then Eyes of Heaven simply couldn't have happened because HAD would just win and that'd be that. He clearly doesn't work that way, though.
3) What are you even trying to say here? Are you implying HAD is also omniscient? Because he blatantly isn't. He gets caught off guard numerous times throughout Eyes of Heaven (even after he has all the Corpse Parts). Otherwise, I have always ascribed "functional omnipresence, omniscience, and omnipotence" to Lain because all of these terms, taken literally, are technically paradoxes - if you know all things or exist in all places, you can't know if you don't know something or if there's a place you don't exist within beyond your knowledge; nothing can be truly omnipotent because then they'd be subject to the "can they create a rock they can't lift?" paradox. When I ascribe "functional omnipresence/omniscience/omnipotence" to Lain, I am saying "she basically exists everywhere within the universe/she knows all things past, present, and future in the universe/she can alter everything to be exactly the way she wants it to be with a thought."
4a) It doesn't matter if he is specifically a human, simply a being with consciousness. Did I not make this clear enough? I wouldn't have included him under the effect if there was any evidence to assume Jojo Vampires would not be affected by Protocol 7. They are conscious beings who exist in the same evolutionary path as other sentient lifeforms, as Kars so aptly demonstrates.
5) See, this is where I realized you have no idea what I'm talking about. I am outright saying in this section that Lain cannot be considered to hop universes: even if she theoretically could, it's not demonstrated and it is out of character for her to do that, so let's not go there. I am blatantly saying not to judge the fight on this idea. I am unsure how to communicate this to you better, because I said this in plain English.
6) I have been taking into account HAD with the souls/Holy Corpse throughout my comments. This section was merely pointing out to you how HAD was an intrinsically defeatable antagonist with limitations.
"I haven't watched much of Jojo Bizarre believe it or not XD."
Alright. You have not watched SEL, but have you not at least watched Eye of Heaven's cutscenes, let alone played it? Because if not... Pray tell, why are you here, then? Why do you think you have anything meaningful to contribute to this discussion?
If you are basing your arguments entirely off of what's in their profiles (second hand accounts as opposed to, you know, actually knowing either series in any decent capacity), let me just quote some things for you from those profiles.
Lain: "Strong Reality Warping (she could reset the universe whenever she wanted)"
HAD: "As Heaven DIO's reality overwrite is centered around the use of his/TWOH's hands, he must punch someone or something in order to warp it out of existence."
Why are you having so much difficulty with this concept? Please answer this question or none of your arguments hold weight. Lain's reality warping is instantaneous and covers any feasible combat arena. HAD's reality overwrite demands he punch something. You keep ignoring this clear and blatant divergence in power. Why? Tell me. Explain to me how "Lain thinks it away instantly with the calculative efficiency of a divine supercomputer" is not superior to "DIO or The World must punch something to trigger Over Heaven" when Dio's only out is activating The World's timestop ability, which he must do consciously through his limited (if vampiric) reflexes/thoughtspeed, meaning Lain is still quicker on the draw. How are you failing to comprehend this?
And hell. Jotaro can act within time stop because he's got time stop. Lain has time stop too. I kept forgetting to mention this point because I thought it was irrelevant to the fact that Lain can just delete HAD, but it's worth noting, I guess. Well... there's another compatibility issue: Jotaro's time freeze is a Stand power, so unless it was immediately relevant, I didn't want to take into deep consideration whether only Stand-based time freeze followed the rules that Star Platinum and The World do, which leads into the question of how similar Lain's powers and Stand powers (Ghost Ripple) really are - I mean, they both essentially derive from fundamentally psychical abilities. But like I thought before, this topic is all something of a digression when Lain can just poof HAD.
It's souls, by the way, not soles. Soles refer to the underside of your shoes. HAD has pretty pimpin' footwear, granted, but I don't think it helps him much here.
7) I have already demonstrated to you how, even taking into consideration the profiles, Lain still wins. It's not necessary for the purposes of this fight.
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- Facepalm*
Then you insult me for having a different opinion
Funny, More like you're butthurt for no reason
Also for point 7
Do I care, Points CAN'T is used unless said in the wiki, or people could easily claim that Beyonder is Omnipotent FFS
So Ethier MAKE A REVISION THREAD or be seen by other people Quote on Quote "Wanking"
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1) Yes, I know you were explaining her origin story Dammit.
But you mentioned how she didn't have a limit of the range for her attack which I obviously found was "Wank". Don't try and tell me that you weren't acting like the battle WAS on earth because you mentioned Quote on Quote "Lain has no range limit on the planet Earth by default" which indicates you were talking about the battle was on Earth even doe IT WAS NEVER MENTIONED TO BE.
2) You mention how she can reset anything in HER universe on a whim.
Remember in HER universe.
Since when was the fight in Lains Universe, if it was I would have given it to her and this argument wouldn't be going on. Also Like I said....
Both of their Reality warpings is on the same level....
Thier Both Low 2C via Reality Warping.
3) When did I even say HAD has Omniscience.
Seriously when did I, and you say I'm still learning about reading Comprehension, maybe practice yourself.
Also Like I said, they aren't from same verse. I'm it said she knew everything throughout the Multiverse. Sure ok, but it says she knew everything in HER universe.
Jesus Christ
4a) Never said he wouldn't be affected but ok
5) I'm pretty sure it would be a stomp in Lains favour if this was in her universe so no, It isn't even mentioned the battle is even in her universe Dammit. Read the damn opening and before you say I misunderstood you. You literally said it would be out of her personality to do that...
Hmmmmmm.....
Says anything about the battle being in person....
6) I mean I haven't watched the old Jojo Bizarre, more of the new crap and stuff, sorry for not being clearer.
Also, I'm not just basing the characters of a profile, not watching one series and watching most of the other one is just...
Why do you have so much difficulty that they are literally rated both the same?
I mean is Lain rated a fully fledged 2C, NO
Is HAD... NO
Like, stop trying to make it look like the difference is different. The speed of it happening, Oh wait, happens in an instant in HER universe...
After hearing everything about "Her Universe" I'm done here. You rejected that the fight could be somewhere else but it would be alright for HAD.
So done
But you mentioned how she didn't have a limit of the range for her attack which I obviously found was "Wank". Don't try and tell me that you weren't acting like the battle WAS on earth because you mentioned Quote on Quote "Lain has no range limit on the planet Earth by default" which indicates you were talking about the battle was on Earth even doe IT WAS NEVER MENTIONED TO BE.
2) You mention how she can reset anything in HER universe on a whim.
Remember in HER universe.
Since when was the fight in Lains Universe, if it was I would have given it to her and this argument wouldn't be going on. Also Like I said....
Both of their Reality warpings is on the same level....
Thier Both Low 2C via Reality Warping.
3) When did I even say HAD has Omniscience.
Seriously when did I, and you say I'm still learning about reading Comprehension, maybe practice yourself.
Also Like I said, they aren't from same verse. I'm it said she knew everything throughout the Multiverse. Sure ok, but it says she knew everything in HER universe.
Jesus Christ
4a) Never said he wouldn't be affected but ok
5) I'm pretty sure it would be a stomp in Lains favour if this was in her universe so no, It isn't even mentioned the battle is even in her universe Dammit. Read the damn opening and before you say I misunderstood you. You literally said it would be out of her personality to do that...
Hmmmmmm.....
Says anything about the battle being in person....
6) I mean I haven't watched the old Jojo Bizarre, more of the new crap and stuff, sorry for not being clearer.
Also, I'm not just basing the characters of a profile, not watching one series and watching most of the other one is just...
Why do you have so much difficulty that they are literally rated both the same?
I mean is Lain rated a fully fledged 2C, NO
Is HAD... NO
Like, stop trying to make it look like the difference is different. The speed of it happening, Oh wait, happens in an instant in HER universe...
After hearing everything about "Her Universe" I'm done here. You rejected that the fight could be somewhere else but it would be alright for HAD.
So done
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Your points were largely reactionary to my own and generally failed to actually refute their main assertions, as I demonstrated.Koopi said:
By default. She has no range limit on Earth by default. Those are the key words. By default. She may then alter physics to expand her influence to a universal scale. Thus, this is a true statement: "She has no range limit on Earth by default." Please note that in the next paragraph I say: "She knows everything that has, is, and will occur on Earth and can rewrite the laws of physics using her reality warping abilities so that her perception and influence covers the entire universe (or, in a multiversal sense, the entirety of the universe she exists within)." I mention this concept in a post before the one in discussion as well.Then you insult me for having a different opinio Where've I insulted you? Also for point 7 Do I care said:
There is no contradiction. I meant exactly what I typed.
2) You mention how she can reset anything in HER universe on a whim.Remember in HER universe.
Since when was the fight in Lains Universe, if it was I would have given it to her and this argument wouldn't be going on.
Matters of consideration:
1) If Lain exists in a universe, her reality warping properties are at full power because that is the nature of her existence. You either get the full package (albeit there is a distinction between a Lain unaware of her true nature and an "awakened" Lain who is the matter at hand) or she just can't be there. Lain is not a corporeal being by default - for her to exist in a place, her influence basically has to extend to there. If it's not there, she can't do anything: she's not present. If the characters are to fight, we must suppose they are both present in a space within which they can interact.
2) I thought we were on the same page assuming that Lain couldn't/wouldn't hop universes? But DIO would, which is kind of the entire point of Eyes of Heaven: DIO is absolutely the guy who would bust into your universe and teabag everyone for his own gratification (well, also to get the Corpse Parts).
3) Regardless, I have consistently considered multiple scenarios - if it's just a whiteroom simulation battle, if it's on Earth, if it's elsewhere in a universe. If it's in another universe, then we must assume that Lain hopped universes (against previous suppositions) and has her full power after becoming independent of Earth/the Wired or else she simply can't manifest and isn't there... unless the entire Earth of her universe got shifted to a new universe preceeding her becoming independent, in which case the factors which grant her the power she has are still at play anyway.
I only rejected the idea that it would take place in the pretty purple interval plane where HAD is first introduced if he actually created it because Lain has no reason to intrude on DIO's crib (if she were to find out about it) and he may have altered that world such that the (vaguely defined, pretty much so advanced it's beyond human comprehension) phenomena that permit her existence at that stage are not possible there prior to her gaining knowledge of it.
Both of their Reality warpings is on the same level....Thier Both Low 2C via Reality Warping.
I have never contradicted this. "In other words, this is battle of reality overwriting rocket tag where the first character to erase the other wins; regarding a straight up fair fight, I have already explained why Lain's reality overwriting abilities are superior. They are more efficient and have absolutely no limitations in activation or reach." It is not a matter of what they're capable of accomplishing, it is a matter of when, range, and on what scale.
3) When did I even say HAD has Omniscience.Seriously when did I, and you say I'm still learning about reading Comprehension, maybe practice yourself.
Like I said right then and there, I didn't know what point you were trying to make.
"You know... To be Omniscient you can only know your universe. You don't have to know other verses.... "
It's like... okay, so? So I basically said 'is this what you're trying to say?' and then refuted it while acknowledging that I didn't know what you were trying to say because you weren't making it clear.
This is what I mean by "reading comprehension." I even stated right there, "What are you even trying to say here?"
Also Like I said, they aren't from same verse. I'm it said she knew everything throughout the Multiverse. Sure ok, but it says she knew everything in HER universe.
As noted above, anywhere Lain in an awakened state is, she has her powers. Lain is inseparable from her powers. Her existence is founded on her powers. She exists where her influence holds sway. Where her influence holds sway, she's omniscient and has complete knowledge of the past/present/future.
4a) Never said he wouldn't be affected but ok
Then whatever did you mean by "Lain only knows stuff from her universe so that statement is quickly invalid?" What statement is rendered invalid?
Why otherwise mention DIO is a vampire? Just 'cause? Alright. Yes, I know Dio is a vampire. It's why I said "not quite human, of course, but previously so." Dio Brando was originally a human being, after all.
If he's affected, then Lain knows what DIO knows about vampires and, well, everything he knows because it means he, as a sentient being, is part of the collective unconscious and he and Lain are linked. The collective unconsciousness is not a concept unique to Lain's universe (srsly, google it), but it's used as part of SEL's allegory for the relationships and connections between people.
5) I'm pretty sure it would be a stomp in Lains favour if this was in her universe so no, It isn't even mentioned the battle is even in her universe Dammit. Read the damn opening and before you say I misunderstood you. You literally said it would be out of her personality to do that...
It would be out of character for Lain, as portrayed at the end of her series, to leave her universe, yes. So how do we have this fight? Either Dio comes to her, we simply analyze it in a white room simulation (Lain still wins), or we say Lain can in fact hop universes (which isn't implausible, but never broached in her series) and takes her powerset with her because that's how she works.
I'm glad you admit that "I'm pretty sure it would be a massive stomp in Lain's favor[...]" because that's exactly how things are. Lain doesn't get a boost in her universe and doesn't weaken if you place her in another one - she either is Lain with her powers and all they entail or she is not Lain. You can't take her out of the context of her own existence.
Says anything about the battle being in person....
Again, what are you trying to say here?
6) I mean I haven't watched the old Jojo Bizarre, more of the new crap and stuff, sorry for not being clearer.
Well, the anime adaptation is generally very good, so if you've watched through every Part released thus far/read at least up to Part 7, that should be good enough... or is that what you're saying? That you've not read the manga/watched Part 1 or 2? I mean, that would explain why you saw fit to correct my "Dio is not quite human, but used to be" comment. You didn't know Dio used to be a human?
Also, I'm not just basing the characters of a profile, not watching one series and watching most of the other one is just...
...too hard? Time consuming? Don't leave me hanging here.
Why do you have so much difficulty that they are literally rated both the same?
Because them both being able to warp reality to the same extent is irrelevant when one can explicitly do the same thing with greater immediacy. HAD must go through the motions, for Lain it just happens. That's that.
Frankly, either neither can be affected or both can be affected by reality warping. If neither can affect the other, that means there can be no definitive conclusion to a fight; in such a case, HAD's attempt to overwrite reality with Over Heaven will be futile as Lain will simply revert every change he makes; this is boring and dumb.
Thus I went with "both are potentially affected" because there is nothing to suggest that either is completely immune to reality overwrite as long as they cannot react to the attempt in time to negate it. In such a case, like I said before, it's a "battle of reality overwriting rocket tag where the first character to erase the other wins." Lain is quicker on the draw than HAD because HAD's reality warping is conditional based off the usage of his fists whereas Lain's is immediate, hence she wins.
But wait! HAD can use ZA WARUDO to freeze time and attack Lain or the factors of reality which permit her existence with impunity (assuming Lain can't use her own time freeze to escape) so Lain being quicker on the reality warping draw can be circumvented! Well... no, actually.
What this comes down to is a difference between DIO's and Lain's reaction speeds and perception of the world. DIO is essentially a superhuman and so thinks/reacts much faster than most mortal beings while having extraordinary awareness of his surroundings; Lain's thinking/reaction speed is beyond a corporeal being's entirely, with potentially universal knowledge of all past and future events. HAD can be surprised; awakened Lain really can't be.
Like, stop trying to make it look like the difference is different. The speed of it happening, Oh wait, happens in an instant in HER universe...
Anywhere Lain in an awakened state is, she has her powers. Lain is inseparable from her powers. The instantaneity of her powers in her awakened state does not alter based on where her influence reaches.
After hearing everything about "Her Universe" I'm done here. You rejected that the fight could be somewhere else but it would be alright for HAD.
I didn't reject that the fight could be somewhere else, I rejected the notion that she'll, you know, stop being Lain if she's removed from her universe. That idea is nonsensical and defeats the point of this exercise.
The biggest irony of all this, I think, is that power levels are pretty much pointless in Lain because that's really just not what the series is about. I am actually being a terrible human being by caring enough about what amounts to a fictional dick measuring contest to write multiple paragraphs about why Lain wins. By comparison, power levels are plenty relevant to Jojo because one of the primary focuses of the series is clever, interesting, and involved battles. That, incidentally, is precisely why HAD has any sort of limitations in his abilities to any extent (so Jotaro can finally ORAORAORA him at the end of day, despite his overwhelming hax) while Lain basically has none - it's fine for her to functionally be god (well, a gnostic Sophia, really) because her series isn't about fighting, it's about sci-fi philosobabble.
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This when you insulted me
"Koopi, you must learn reading comprehension, because you have consistently misinterpreted eveything I've said and are arguing against something I am not asserting. Whether intentionally or not, too much of what you're saying is a strawman argument and you are not even bothering to tackle the actual questions I've posed. You aren't really accomplishing anything."
"Koopi, you must learn reading comprehension, because you have consistently misinterpreted eveything I've said and are arguing against something I am not asserting. Whether intentionally or not, too much of what you're saying is a strawman argument and you are not even bothering to tackle the actual questions I've posed. You aren't really accomplishing anything."
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That's not an insult. That's a statement that you're not processing what I'm putting forth and this misapprehension is causing you to make arguments that either do not reasonably follow based off the presented facts or fail to actually dispute my points.
Sorry if that offended you, nevertheless.
Sorry if that offended you, nevertheless.
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