ApiesDeathbyLazors
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It's still pretty large by confined spaces standards.
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Lady Maria vs Son Goku
- Thread starter ApiesDeathbyLazors
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Goku fights honorably when he is fighting someone relatively equal to him, or weaker than him.Mr. Bambu said:
He isn't an idiot. If Goku was getting blitzed by Maria's speed amp, then he would fly back and think of a strategy to beat her with.
Just because he normally fights in CQC, doesn't mean he wouldn't abuse his superior range if it was a way to win the match.
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@Warren Their AP is almost equal, Goku has a slight AP advantage so yes he would be fighting honorably
ApiesDeathbyLazors
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The issue with steping back is two fold though,
- Equalized Speed
- And Maria is relentless
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Maria for Bambu's reasons.
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Mr. Bambu
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No no
The reasoning is this
"
But going out of range and blasting an enemy is not ooc either. He doesn't start with that, but he isn't against doing it to gain an advantage.
You can only do that so many time, and you can't constantly spam it. Nor does she constantly spam it.
Doesn't change that goku would get out of it when needed.
Plus... can she fly?"
They later ignore her flight via disregarding it, claim something isn't OoC when it seems it actually very much is, and ignores what is in character for her (to constantly spam the speed amp). Which is like word for word exactly what she does.
The reasoning is this
"
But going out of range and blasting an enemy is not ooc either. He doesn't start with that, but he isn't against doing it to gain an advantage.
You can only do that so many time, and you can't constantly spam it. Nor does she constantly spam it.
Doesn't change that goku would get out of it when needed.
Plus... can she fly?"
They later ignore her flight via disregarding it, claim something isn't OoC when it seems it actually very much is, and ignores what is in character for her (to constantly spam the speed amp). Which is like word for word exactly what she does.
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@Mr. Bambu
I quoted my reasoning from Calaca Vs.
Whose comment you can see here.
DragonEmperor23 and I voted Goku for Calaca Vs reasons. Those are the three votes that were counted.
I don't know why you thought what Ricsi-viragosi said was the reasoning for us voting Goku, but you are wrong. If you had a problem with his reasoning, that's fine. But it isn't the reasoning that is being used here.
I quoted my reasoning from Calaca Vs.
Whose comment you can see here.
DragonEmperor23 and I voted Goku for Calaca Vs reasons. Those are the three votes that were counted.
I don't know why you thought what Ricsi-viragosi said was the reasoning for us voting Goku, but you are wrong. If you had a problem with his reasoning, that's fine. But it isn't the reasoning that is being used here.
Mr. Bambu
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"How good is her flight? Goku would try to charge a KHH the moment he feels a little pushed and we know the difference between a casual blast than a named technique.
Take for example Piccolo, who Goku scales to, who used the same attack against Raditz than the one he used to destroy the moon and Raditz was unfazed and totally unharmed. While the charged KHH made Raditz flinch and try to out-run it based on pure concern about the sudden increase in power the technique represents. Even w/o Kaio-Ken, the KHH is a pretty strong technique.
Goku also has superior stamina, range (he won't spam it but it's a good advantage) and Lifting Strength to stop Maria's attacks with more ease.
Voting Goku."
Disregards flight outright. Also Lifting Strength just flat out doesn't work like that lol.
Take for example Piccolo, who Goku scales to, who used the same attack against Raditz than the one he used to destroy the moon and Raditz was unfazed and totally unharmed. While the charged KHH made Raditz flinch and try to out-run it based on pure concern about the sudden increase in power the technique represents. Even w/o Kaio-Ken, the KHH is a pretty strong technique.
Goku also has superior stamina, range (he won't spam it but it's a good advantage) and Lifting Strength to stop Maria's attacks with more ease.
Voting Goku."
Disregards flight outright. Also Lifting Strength just flat out doesn't work like that lol.
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He literally asked how good her flight was, that isn't disregarding anything, that's just not knowing.Mr. Bambu said:
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I vote Maria fra
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It doesn't impact his reasoning at all though.Mr. Bambu said:
The superior range comes from Goku's attacks, not that he can fly. Hers being tens of meters, his being planetary.
If her flying capabilities matter, it would reflect in his, and our reasoning. It doesn't though, so it doesn't matter.
I'm going to sleep.
@Everyone Goodnight.
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@Warren Her flying does matter yet it was completely ignored
ApiesDeathbyLazors
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@Warren The issue is if her flight is equal to Goku's then under speed equalzation he can't get away.
I am also off to bed. Goodnight everyone, and let's keep it civil.
I am also off to bed. Goodnight everyone, and let's keep it civil.
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And she has speed amps that make him getting away even less likely
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Kay, time to explain.
While it's true that I "disregarded" her flight, I'd change my vote based on the answers from the other side.
They are roughly comparable in experience/skill, considering Goku has fought with Master Martial artist with tens and hundreds years of experience.
She has speed amps, but it's not like Goku hasn't fought at speed disadvantage. He usually outspeeds the opponent but he's no stranger to getting blitzed and even then being able to keep up in the long run.
My reasoning is more based on other arguments and yet It's being questioned for the flight and claiming that Goku doesn't gain distance to fire a blast IC which absolutely ignores the example I gave. In order to fire his Cho KHH to Raditz he looked for the distance. I'd link the scene but i'm not at home rn.
BTW 13 yottatons is the power of a casual blast from Piccolo. The difference between casual and outright in fighting situation is humongous for DB standards and Goku scales slightlu above Piccolo and can enhance himself gathering Ki like he does with the KHH.
Her flight surely complicates the things for Goku, but in the long run she will not be unscathed by Goku's attacks which hold more weight. She doesn't have the stamina advantage so she will get tired from the wounds and fatigue before Goku.
I adressed the Lifting Strength because if Goku tries to grab Maria to grapple her he won't have any problem.
The only real advantage on Maria's side is her speed amp which isn't even blitz worthy. In other terms they are comparable but Goku surpasses her in everything else.
While it's true that I "disregarded" her flight, I'd change my vote based on the answers from the other side.
They are roughly comparable in experience/skill, considering Goku has fought with Master Martial artist with tens and hundreds years of experience.
She has speed amps, but it's not like Goku hasn't fought at speed disadvantage. He usually outspeeds the opponent but he's no stranger to getting blitzed and even then being able to keep up in the long run.
My reasoning is more based on other arguments and yet It's being questioned for the flight and claiming that Goku doesn't gain distance to fire a blast IC which absolutely ignores the example I gave. In order to fire his Cho KHH to Raditz he looked for the distance. I'd link the scene but i'm not at home rn.
BTW 13 yottatons is the power of a casual blast from Piccolo. The difference between casual and outright in fighting situation is humongous for DB standards and Goku scales slightlu above Piccolo and can enhance himself gathering Ki like he does with the KHH.
Her flight surely complicates the things for Goku, but in the long run she will not be unscathed by Goku's attacks which hold more weight. She doesn't have the stamina advantage so she will get tired from the wounds and fatigue before Goku.
I adressed the Lifting Strength because if Goku tries to grab Maria to grapple her he won't have any problem.
The only real advantage on Maria's side is her speed amp which isn't even blitz worthy. In other terms they are comparable but Goku surpasses her in everything else.
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Maria's AP scales to Rom (one of the weaker Great Ones) keeping the moon in place by existing. Not sure I'd call it super serious either.
The real advantages Maria has are speed amps and tactics far from traditional in Dragon Ball, Goku's only advantage is range he doesn't abuse in character and a negligible AP advantage. Even skill is questionable since it seems he's stronger than those he trained with, not to mention if we're going based on time of things they fought Maria's fought Old Ones.
You and I both know Goku isn't going for grappling. Like ever. Not only would that be horribly stupid and lead to being stabbed or shot (or some similar attack), that'd also be out of character. Like I said, Lifting Strength ain't a factor.
The real advantages Maria has are speed amps and tactics far from traditional in Dragon Ball, Goku's only advantage is range he doesn't abuse in character and a negligible AP advantage. Even skill is questionable since it seems he's stronger than those he trained with, not to mention if we're going based on time of things they fought Maria's fought Old Ones.
You and I both know Goku isn't going for grappling. Like ever. Not only would that be horribly stupid and lead to being stabbed or shot (or some similar attack), that'd also be out of character. Like I said, Lifting Strength ain't a factor.
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How much does she scale? Scaling chain is a thing and being so comparable she might hold the advantage.
The difference in power he had most of the time is negligible. King Piccolo broke his limbs, Roshi drained him, Ten Shin Han lost but he was almost equal.
It isn't his main way to go. I'm probably mistaken with the times he used grappling but I still think that if Goku tries to hold the sword and steal it from her hands he would be able. Also you can stop attacks grabbing the arm/hand of the opponent. That's something martial artist do a lot.
The difference in power he had most of the time is negligible. King Piccolo broke his limbs, Roshi drained him, Ten Shin Han lost but he was almost equal.
It isn't his main way to go. I'm probably mistaken with the times he used grappling but I still think that if Goku tries to hold the sword and steal it from her hands he would be able. Also you can stop attacks grabbing the arm/hand of the opponent. That's something martial artist do a lot.
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Rom is the baseline 5-A and the first "hard" boss of the game. While you can technically go out of order to fight her, I'd put it like this:
Rom is a fledgeling Great One. A human transformed into a vacuous spider. Maria is one of the strongest hunters ever, and is the last boss before Orphan Kos, largely regarded as one of the strongest bosses in the series as a whole. Since it's Soulsborne the scaling chain is weird since you can go out of order so... take it for what you will.
Grappling a lady who uses blood/fire explosions coming from her body as a regular attack seems like a mighty good way to die.
Rom is a fledgeling Great One. A human transformed into a vacuous spider. Maria is one of the strongest hunters ever, and is the last boss before Orphan Kos, largely regarded as one of the strongest bosses in the series as a whole. Since it's Soulsborne the scaling chain is weird since you can go out of order so... take it for what you will.
Grappling a lady who uses blood/fire explosions coming from her body as a regular attack seems like a mighty good way to die.
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Okay, but I need to know if she scales massively above the feat and she will have the AP advantage. What about the lore?
Yeah, if the explosions bypass Durability or are heavily stronger than Goku because right now he holds that. He'll be harmed but not at the point he's going to die from an explosion since that happens a lot in DB.
Could you elaborarse on her blood manip?
Yeah, if the explosions bypass Durability or are heavily stronger than Goku because right now he holds that. He'll be harmed but not at the point he's going to die from an explosion since that happens a lot in DB.
Could you elaborarse on her blood manip?
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The two don't connect in lore aside from Maria killed a true Great One, Rom was a weaker Great One.
In the same way that a casual attack is 5-A and this would be a much bigger attack.
She extends her blades/creates blasts of blood. A boss fight of hers was linked above.
In the same way that a casual attack is 5-A and this would be a much bigger attack.
She extends her blades/creates blasts of blood. A boss fight of hers was linked above.
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Then where the 12.8 Yottatons comes from if the feat is baseline? While existing yes, but this is confusing me, why does she scale to a baseline and at the same time being 12.8 Yottatons?
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Right. Thanks.
ApiesDeathbyLazors
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So what's the vote count now? Have minds been changed and votes reconsidered? Or are people pretty content with their current choices?
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Mine too.
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Honestly, this is an amazingly close match for two characters from different franchises.
Strength, speed, and skills all being roughly equal - with Goku having the slight advantage in strength and Maria in speed.
The slight AP advantage, plus the stamina advantage makes me feel that Goku would pull out the win as he can hit harder and last longer.
Strength, speed, and skills all being roughly equal - with Goku having the slight advantage in strength and Maria in speed.
The slight AP advantage, plus the stamina advantage makes me feel that Goku would pull out the win as he can hit harder and last longer.
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> Longer
Maria's dead. She isn't exactly going to be stopping for breath anytime soon. Additionally her speed amps lend themselves very well to dodging attacks from people who attack all-out.
Maria's dead. She isn't exactly going to be stopping for breath anytime soon. Additionally her speed amps lend themselves very well to dodging attacks from people who attack all-out.
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Goku can also just try to analyze her fighting style and find weak points or make some random fighting style all on his own to counter Maria's
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Shouldn't she have Type 7 Immortality if she's dead?
Goku has really good stamina feats in the series - obvious exception being things like SSJ3 or UI. Better than what is on her page about surviving stabbing herself in the chest twice and acting like it was nothing.
Goku has really good stamina feats in the series - obvious exception being things like SSJ3 or UI. Better than what is on her page about surviving stabbing herself in the chest twice and acting like it was nothing.
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This Goku has kept fighting with the broken ribs, and other instance is when he gets a hole in the chest and all his limbs broken and keep fighting (a headbutt but still able to fly which is something he didn't do by himself before and defeat Piccolo).
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She probably should but it's weird how her death works. She's not in the living world, and Undeath implies being dead but still active on some level of life. Maria's where dead things are.
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Maria refers to herself as a corpse does she not?
Also I'm still voting maria
Also I'm still voting maria
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I'm honestly thinking it could go either way as both sides are making some pretty solid points.
I'm voting Incon For basically everything stated above for the time being
I'm voting Incon For basically everything stated above for the time being
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@Warren Goku doesnt have an ap advantage as bambu already explained
Maria can stab herself through the torso multiple times and shrug off the damage like its nothing
Maria can stab herself through the torso multiple times and shrug off the damage like its nothing
