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- #121
Makes it seem like Velvet is a good bit stronger than Sorey then, i know nothing about Rays though, are these endgame Velvet and Sorey? Also, i would say the use of spin offs is somewhat questionable regardless.
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Lack of information on the Tales Series.
- Thread starter The_Divine_Phoenix
- Start date
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- #123
Eh, pre-trials Sorey being weaker makes sense in canon anyways, i doubt this would change anything, were it to be considered canon.
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- #125
Kamui means Armatization, i assume? Yeah, he'd be weaker even if he had it, considering Sorey needed help to take down a Drake, which Velvet could take down on her own near the very beginning of the game.
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Velvet and Sorey from their middle arc .Phoenixstorm9 said:
Also Sorey can use Artimaztion on Tales of rays .
https://youtu.be/b3u4kaVdceE
Look at 0:26
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- #127
Well, that's one reason to scale Sorey's inevitable midgame key to Velvet's then, i guess, not entirely sure if that key should be 7-B or 7-A yet though.
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Sorey didn't get accesses to Artimaztion until very recently and they made huge deal about it. He didn't have it back when they fought fake velvet.
For the last time, Rays is not canon...
End game Sorey was beating Heldaf "much stronger version of Velvet" in his base. Velvet on the other hand, was having troubles against incomplete version of Kamui between Oscar and some random malak.
For the last time, Rays is not canon...
End game Sorey was beating Heldaf "much stronger version of Velvet" in his base. Velvet on the other hand, was having troubles against incomplete version of Kamui between Oscar and some random malak.
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- #129
I feel it being canon is somewhat arguable, though i agree it isn't.
Also, where is it implied Heldalf is stronger? I played through Zestiria and never saw it. Yes, the Velvet that fights Oscar is weaker than Endgame Sorey, she would still count as the mid-lategame key, the Velvet that fights Deific Artorius is not.
Also, where is it implied Heldalf is stronger? I played through Zestiria and never saw it. Yes, the Velvet that fights Oscar is weaker than Endgame Sorey, she would still count as the mid-lategame key, the Velvet that fights Deific Artorius is not.
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Heladaf was corrupting the planet by simply walking around and he gathered malevolence for over a 20 years unlike Velvet who demon for only 3 years. Only toward the end of the game Velvet begun to effect those are around her.
Heldalf one shouted a dragon while end game Velvet still needed the whole group helping her doing it.
End game Heldalf had the power of: fully awaken Empyrean , Zenrus power, his own power, and Sorey still beat him.
Artorius simply fused with Innominat who didn't fully awake yet
The scale of things is different.
Heldalf one shouted a dragon while end game Velvet still needed the whole group helping her doing it.
End game Heldalf had the power of: fully awaken Empyrean , Zenrus power, his own power, and Sorey still beat him.
Artorius simply fused with Innominat who didn't fully awake yet
The scale of things is different.
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- #131
Sorey only beat Armatized Heldalf by severing his link to Maotelus, he didn't win on power alone. Also, it wasn't Heldalf corrupting the planet, it was hellion Maotelus doing that. Heldalf's domain on his own was tiny compared to Maotelus.
Artorius fused with a fully awakened Innominat (He had just received the last malevolence he needed - despair), the same Innominat whose domain would've covered the entire planet, had the other Empyreans not been awakened and this was before he received his despair.
Also, may i remind you, Maotelus is part of Innominat, by and large, he is still weaker even by Zestiria (He doesn't seem like he has powered up much since his ascension, hell, if anything, he may have gotten weaker, considering he turned into a hellion as easily as he did).
Artorius fused with a fully awakened Innominat (He had just received the last malevolence he needed - despair), the same Innominat whose domain would've covered the entire planet, had the other Empyreans not been awakened and this was before he received his despair.
Also, may i remind you, Maotelus is part of Innominat, by and large, he is still weaker even by Zestiria (He doesn't seem like he has powered up much since his ascension, hell, if anything, he may have gotten weaker, considering he turned into a hellion as easily as he did).
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Sorey had to serve to Maotelus connection because if he kills Heldalf along with Maotelus that would destroy the world balance. Sorey first priority was saving Maotelus. He would have been one-shotted anyway if he didn't have the power to stand up to him in the first place.
Heldalf has much better feats than Velvet simply.
-I don't exactly remember but Innominat wasn't fully awakened and he was still powering up after Velvet separated him from Artorius. The whole battle was weird tbh. Elenore who was weaker than base Oscar was able to fight them back somehow and Eizen who should be equal to Zavied was saying he could kill Innominat lol.
-I am aware he is part of Innominat, but Innominat was sleeping after the event of Bers and Maotelus took his place. According to the lore, the 4 empyreans combined are stronger than Innominat, and Maotelus is mentioned to be their leader and the strongest of them all in Zest.
Maotelus purposely let himself to be into a hellion actually. He wanted understand to how both sides feel if he wants to create a peaceful world, and he knew all along that Sorey would come to save him in the end. This is mentioned in the Bersiera novel
Heldalf has much better feats than Velvet simply.
-I don't exactly remember but Innominat wasn't fully awakened and he was still powering up after Velvet separated him from Artorius. The whole battle was weird tbh. Elenore who was weaker than base Oscar was able to fight them back somehow and Eizen who should be equal to Zavied was saying he could kill Innominat lol.
-I am aware he is part of Innominat, but Innominat was sleeping after the event of Bers and Maotelus took his place. According to the lore, the 4 empyreans combined are stronger than Innominat, and Maotelus is mentioned to be their leader and the strongest of them all in Zest.
Maotelus purposely let himself to be into a hellion actually. He wanted understand to how both sides feel if he wants to create a peaceful world, and he knew all along that Sorey would come to save him in the end. This is mentioned in the Bersiera novel
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- #133
Yes, Sorey had to sever Maotelus to prevent balance from being destroyed, however, it was never shown that he could kill Maotelus, Indignation oneshots the entire party when Armatized Heldalf uses it, implying that severing the bonds was Sorey's only chance of winning.
Innominat fully awakened after consuming Artorius' despair, after which he immedietly merged with Artorius. Innominat wasn't powering up at the end, his power was running wild because Artorius, the one controlling him, was gone. The entire main cast, including Eizen and Eleanor, become significantly stronger between fighting Oscar and facing off with Innominat, JRPGs generally work that way, the entire main cast at the very end of the game is comparable to Deific Artorius in raw power.
The 4 Empyreans need to work together to stand a chance against Innominat, only their combined might is stronger than him, Maotelus is comparable to him, as a result, still stronger than the other 4, however, still likely weaker than Innominat.
The last part, i did not know about, i didn't even know such a novel existed. Is it canon? Extra media like that tends to be non canon most of the time. Anyways, it doesn't change much.
Innominat fully awakened after consuming Artorius' despair, after which he immedietly merged with Artorius. Innominat wasn't powering up at the end, his power was running wild because Artorius, the one controlling him, was gone. The entire main cast, including Eizen and Eleanor, become significantly stronger between fighting Oscar and facing off with Innominat, JRPGs generally work that way, the entire main cast at the very end of the game is comparable to Deific Artorius in raw power.
The 4 Empyreans need to work together to stand a chance against Innominat, only their combined might is stronger than him, Maotelus is comparable to him, as a result, still stronger than the other 4, however, still likely weaker than Innominat.
The last part, i did not know about, i didn't even know such a novel existed. Is it canon? Extra media like that tends to be non canon most of the time. Anyways, it doesn't change much.
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- #135
They said it before, they said he wasn't fully awakened when he first started spreading his domain across the world, he finally became fully awakened after eating despair, that's why Aifread was ordered to capture Velvet in the first place, they needed despair.
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@Phoenixstorm9
-It's not matter if he can kill him or not, it's a matter if he can stand up to him and he was able to do easily. Dragon Heldaf one shouting the part is just a game mechanic. IIRC Base Heldaf also had one attack that can one shout and he still lost to base Sorey.
-They didn't do anything to get stronger though. The Zestriria crew go through the trails and receive the 4 empyrean blessing hence why their power up is justified. Velvet was struggling with Innominat before he even awakens but she somehow can stand up to Kmaui Artorius screams PIS.
Maotelus should be relative to Innominat either way, it doesn't change much of our discussion regardless though.
It go against you saying "Maotelus" got weaker over the time lol. If anything Maotelus should get stronger as his domain get stronger over the time and people who believe in him.
The novel is canon and it take place in the time Sorey was sleeping with Maotelus for 1000 years or so. Unlike a spin-off mobile game like Rays this is a pretty reliable source
-It's not matter if he can kill him or not, it's a matter if he can stand up to him and he was able to do easily. Dragon Heldaf one shouting the part is just a game mechanic. IIRC Base Heldaf also had one attack that can one shout and he still lost to base Sorey.
-They didn't do anything to get stronger though. The Zestriria crew go through the trails and receive the 4 empyrean blessing hence why their power up is justified. Velvet was struggling with Innominat before he even awakens but she somehow can stand up to Kmaui Artorius screams PIS.
Maotelus should be relative to Innominat either way, it doesn't change much of our discussion regardless though.
It go against you saying "Maotelus" got weaker over the time lol. If anything Maotelus should get stronger as his domain get stronger over the time and people who believe in him.
The novel is canon and it take place in the time Sorey was sleeping with Maotelus for 1000 years or so. Unlike a spin-off mobile game like Rays this is a pretty reliable source
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- #138
Not entirely sure if i'd count that as game mechanics, given that it specifically oneshots regardless of how powerful you get, i feel this is meant to show that Maotleus' true power is above that of Sorey. Heldalf also doesn't have a technique in base that literally kills everyone on the field, he only oneshots whoever he targets and, i believe, you can survive that one.
I mean, they fought, i guess. Only thing i can say is that's how most JRPGs work, like, Abyss, for example, has similar things happen as well. They get stronger by fighting, that's about all i can tell you. Also, Velvet was matching Innominat pretty well in the pre fight cutscenes, the only time they stood no chance against him was at the initial meeting in Titania, even on Hexen Isle, the Silver Flame could blow back Innominat. The Berseria crew is 5-B from scaling to Indignation, which is canonically obtained while defeating the manifestations in Innominat's body. I suppose that could be considered how they got stronger.
As for Maotelus getting stronger, i highly doubt it, he spent most of his time purifying the land, he was probably at his peak sometime soon after Berseria, but started losing power towards Zestiria as more people stopped praying. Also, his domain was capable of engulfing the entire planet in Berseria already, so that doesn't indicate much change.
The novel being canon is fine, any idea where i could find it?
I mean, they fought, i guess. Only thing i can say is that's how most JRPGs work, like, Abyss, for example, has similar things happen as well. They get stronger by fighting, that's about all i can tell you. Also, Velvet was matching Innominat pretty well in the pre fight cutscenes, the only time they stood no chance against him was at the initial meeting in Titania, even on Hexen Isle, the Silver Flame could blow back Innominat. The Berseria crew is 5-B from scaling to Indignation, which is canonically obtained while defeating the manifestations in Innominat's body. I suppose that could be considered how they got stronger.
As for Maotelus getting stronger, i highly doubt it, he spent most of his time purifying the land, he was probably at his peak sometime soon after Berseria, but started losing power towards Zestiria as more people stopped praying. Also, his domain was capable of engulfing the entire planet in Berseria already, so that doesn't indicate much change.
The novel being canon is fine, any idea where i could find it?
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-Still not important. Sorey can beat the Heldalf "strongest demon in the world" but can still be killed by demons running around if you play on her hard. Lets move on from this point lol.
-Zavied was blasting Innominat around and he's Eizen level at best and would get shit stomped by Dragon Eizen. Phi himself didn't have what it takes to replace Innominat until he received the massive power up near the end and there's nothing in the game that implies Velvet herself is millions of times stronger than the rest of the group.
Indignatio? Remind me what this is again?
-Again it's pointless to our discussion and it includes a lot of assumption. The planet was turning into shit because Maotelus's blessing was blocked so there's no hint at all of Maotelus losing any of his power.
The whole novel? It's not translated but here is the epilogue and Maotelus saying he purposely fell to Heldalf: http://ellendiere.tumblr.com/post/161326769562/tales-of-berseria-novel-epilogue
-Zavied was blasting Innominat around and he's Eizen level at best and would get shit stomped by Dragon Eizen. Phi himself didn't have what it takes to replace Innominat until he received the massive power up near the end and there's nothing in the game that implies Velvet herself is millions of times stronger than the rest of the group.
Indignatio? Remind me what this is again?
-Again it's pointless to our discussion and it includes a lot of assumption. The planet was turning into shit because Maotelus's blessing was blocked so there's no hint at all of Maotelus losing any of his power.
The whole novel? It's not translated but here is the epilogue and Maotelus saying he purposely fell to Heldalf: http://ellendiere.tumblr.com/post/161326769562/tales-of-berseria-novel-epilogue
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- #140
They scale to tier 5 off of Indignation, it's discussed earlier on in this thread. It's a recurring spell in the Tales series.
Zaveid got utterly stomped by Innominat, all he did was briefly send him into the sky after multiple Siegfried power ups (more than he had ever used before or since).
Also, i still argue that it isn't game mechanics or at the very least it isn't meant to be, there is literally nothing you can do to survive the attack aside from stopping it before it happens, nothing else is like this in the entire game.
I intend to leave early game Velvet at Low 7-C based on her taking down a Drake with ease, which was shown to be capable of engulfing an entire town with its domain in Zestiria. Mid-lategame will be 7-B or 7-A based on Melchior having the power to set off a volcano, Endgame would be 5-B based on Indignation and the whole planet covering thing.
Zaveid got utterly stomped by Innominat, all he did was briefly send him into the sky after multiple Siegfried power ups (more than he had ever used before or since).
Also, i still argue that it isn't game mechanics or at the very least it isn't meant to be, there is literally nothing you can do to survive the attack aside from stopping it before it happens, nothing else is like this in the entire game.
I intend to leave early game Velvet at Low 7-C based on her taking down a Drake with ease, which was shown to be capable of engulfing an entire town with its domain in Zestiria. Mid-lategame will be 7-B or 7-A based on Melchior having the power to set off a volcano, Endgame would be 5-B based on Indignation and the whole planet covering thing.
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-So you want to follow the same scaling as FF series?
-I was just referring to how the scaling is completely messed up in he game. Zavied got dusted by Innominat but Eizen somehow can stand his ground and think he can kill awaken Innominat. The whole part was just watching the final clash between Velvet and Artorius lol.
-Many attacks in gaming can one shot you. it doesn't mean anything from a narration standpoint.
Do you have more info on this Indignation spell?
-I was just referring to how the scaling is completely messed up in he game. Zavied got dusted by Innominat but Eizen somehow can stand his ground and think he can kill awaken Innominat. The whole part was just watching the final clash between Velvet and Artorius lol.
-Many attacks in gaming can one shot you. it doesn't mean anything from a narration standpoint.
Do you have more info on this Indignation spell?
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- #142
Glass came up with the idea, given how there are both recurring spells and enemies in the games.
For the scaling, i'm gonna take a guess and say what makes the most sense is that they powered up when fighting the embodiments in Innominat's body (The bosses that give you your 3rd Mystic Artes)
Yes, that is true, but in this game in particular, it is a unique attack with a unique property that is specifically made to ALWAYS kill you regardless of your level, makes it seem like it's intentionally like that for the sake of the story.
https://aselia.wikia.com/wiki/Indignatio
Also you should probably ask glass.
For the scaling, i'm gonna take a guess and say what makes the most sense is that they powered up when fighting the embodiments in Innominat's body (The bosses that give you your 3rd Mystic Artes)
Yes, that is true, but in this game in particular, it is a unique attack with a unique property that is specifically made to ALWAYS kill you regardless of your level, makes it seem like it's intentionally like that for the sake of the story.
https://aselia.wikia.com/wiki/Indignatio
Also you should probably ask glass.
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I would say spells having the same name is nothing more than a reference and nothing suggested that each spell has the same effect tbh. I don't know how FF scaling in this wiki work exactly so I don't have much to say is that regarded.
Isn't the Innominate's body parts just optional bosses fight? Doesn't seems that important tbh.
Not replying on this point anymore. The best you could say is "Maybe" or "I think" they did that but in the end all is just assumption.
Glass is dead ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Isn't the Innominate's body parts just optional bosses fight? Doesn't seems that important tbh.
Not replying on this point anymore. The best you could say is "Maybe" or "I think" they did that but in the end all is just assumption.
Glass is dead ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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- #144
It is literally the same spell across the games, the incantation for it is nearly identical across the games too, but you'll have to talk to glass on that one.
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- #145
The main Berseria profiles are complete here.
So now, onto the justifications. (These are for Berseria only as of now, some will apply to Zestiria later)
Low 7-C early game:
Who scales: Keys for the main cast, all Praetor level exorcists, all other Therions, early game daemons, a key for Zaveid (This will be done once i get to the Zestiria cast)
I consider the early game key to encompass the period from Velvet's fight with the Drake in Titania up to the first encounter with Innominat in Titania.
The justification for the tier originally comes from a calc about Zestiria, which is fine, but I would like to have something from Berseria to scale them to, and so i found this [1] Velvet fights a Drake very early on in the game, Sorey fights one here [2]. The Drake in Zestiria was corrupting the entirety of Marlind and domains have been shown to scale to one's power, like when Heldalf's was completely shutting down Sorey's powers, but when Sorey completed the Trials, this effect ceased. The two Drakes are using literally the same model, there's no mistaking it being the same type of enemy. The reasoning for the "At least" for Berseria is because they become a lot stronger up until meeting Innominat.
7-B Mid-Late game:
Who scales: Keys for the main cast, all Legate level exorcists, another key for Zaveid, Van Aifread, mid-late game daemons
I consider the Mid-Late game key to be from the first meeting with Innominat up until just before the party enters the portal to the final dungeon.
The reasoning for this one comes from this scene here and here
Now, i'm not entirely sure if this is 7-B or 7-A, that's why i have the "At least" in place now, here are the best shots i could get of the volcano [3] [4] [5] [6] so you tell me if it's 7-A, i am not qualified to answer that.
5-B Endgame:
Who scales: Keys for the main cast, Artorius, Innominat
The justification originally comes from Indignation, which was discussed on this very thread, however, there is more, [7] [8], here we see that Innominat was using the Earth as a vessel prior to be pushed out by the Empyreans, in the second image, we see Maotelus doing the same, Innominat has also been stated multiple times as being capable of expanding his domain to the entire planet and seemingly having done so many times before, as stated before, the size of a domain is based on the strength of the wielder (should they choose to manifest it as such), this should make a good second justification for planet level endgame.
So now, onto the justifications. (These are for Berseria only as of now, some will apply to Zestiria later)
Low 7-C early game:
Who scales: Keys for the main cast, all Praetor level exorcists, all other Therions, early game daemons, a key for Zaveid (This will be done once i get to the Zestiria cast)
I consider the early game key to encompass the period from Velvet's fight with the Drake in Titania up to the first encounter with Innominat in Titania.
The justification for the tier originally comes from a calc about Zestiria, which is fine, but I would like to have something from Berseria to scale them to, and so i found this [1] Velvet fights a Drake very early on in the game, Sorey fights one here [2]. The Drake in Zestiria was corrupting the entirety of Marlind and domains have been shown to scale to one's power, like when Heldalf's was completely shutting down Sorey's powers, but when Sorey completed the Trials, this effect ceased. The two Drakes are using literally the same model, there's no mistaking it being the same type of enemy. The reasoning for the "At least" for Berseria is because they become a lot stronger up until meeting Innominat.
7-B Mid-Late game:
Who scales: Keys for the main cast, all Legate level exorcists, another key for Zaveid, Van Aifread, mid-late game daemons
I consider the Mid-Late game key to be from the first meeting with Innominat up until just before the party enters the portal to the final dungeon.
The reasoning for this one comes from this scene here and here
Now, i'm not entirely sure if this is 7-B or 7-A, that's why i have the "At least" in place now, here are the best shots i could get of the volcano [3] [4] [5] [6] so you tell me if it's 7-A, i am not qualified to answer that.
5-B Endgame:
Who scales: Keys for the main cast, Artorius, Innominat
The justification originally comes from Indignation, which was discussed on this very thread, however, there is more, [7] [8], here we see that Innominat was using the Earth as a vessel prior to be pushed out by the Empyreans, in the second image, we see Maotelus doing the same, Innominat has also been stated multiple times as being capable of expanding his domain to the entire planet and seemingly having done so many times before, as stated before, the size of a domain is based on the strength of the wielder (should they choose to manifest it as such), this should make a good second justification for planet level endgame.
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Bump
This is fairly important.
This is fairly important.
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Seems fine by me.
I'll ask for Glass's imput on this.
I'll ask for Glass's imput on this.
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- #148
Glass is gone currently, i believe.
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Well, yeah, but the message will be there, waiting for his return, so it can't hurt regardless.
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- #150
Glass was fine with upgrading to 5-B based on the Indignation thing alone, so that's something.
Also, it does have a bit more credence than just scaling between games in Berseria, given how Dhaos is literally mentioned by name in a mandatory story event.
Also, it does have a bit more credence than just scaling between games in Berseria, given how Dhaos is literally mentioned by name in a mandatory story event.
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Wait, where was he mentioned?
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- #152
Eizen's coin.
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Huh..
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Well then. That helps.
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- #156
Bump
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Playing Berseria and Zestiria there some hint about Maotelus .
Maotelus before Zestiria era can make many shepard and purify around earth . However during Zestiria Era he lose his followers and only can purifvy small villange because people don't worshipping him and thread his legend and seraphim as fairytale .
Here my zestiria power level .
Prime Maotelus > Heldalf - Sorey > Zestiria Maotelus
Maotelus before Zestiria era can make many shepard and purify around earth . However during Zestiria Era he lose his followers and only can purifvy small villange because people don't worshipping him and thread his legend and seraphim as fairytale .
Here my zestiria power level .
Prime Maotelus > Heldalf - Sorey > Zestiria Maotelus
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It will be better to start a new CRT with better OP info.
Anyway, I disagree with the 5-B reasoning for the Indignation spell as I already said. Mao-boi covering the whole planet is High 6-A at best and not 5-B, nothing suggests he can blow up the whole planet.
Mid-game scaling seems fine but I have no idea how to scale it tho.
Anyway, I disagree with the 5-B reasoning for the Indignation spell as I already said. Mao-boi covering the whole planet is High 6-A at best and not 5-B, nothing suggests he can blow up the whole planet.
Mid-game scaling seems fine but I have no idea how to scale it tho.
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- #159
I'll start a new one then, the 5-B reasoning, i feel, has some more credibility to it, given how Dhaos is mentioned ingame and the spell supposedly scales to him. Why is covering the planet only High 6-A though? His domain encompasses all of it.
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