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Kratos (God of War) vs The Old Man of Wandering Mountain (Concept vs Plot)
- Thread starter Lilixa
- Start date
- Status
- 10,901
- 12,332
Passive plot manip incaps?
- 2,151
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Kratos blitz and pretty much one shots
Idk what that plot manipulation can do tho
Idk what that plot manipulation can do tho
Transcending
He/Him- 1,998
- 1,524
Do we know how powerful that plot manip is? Till then I am voting Kratos with a speedblitz
- 10,901
- 12,332
The plot manip is passive so he can't blitz.
And it covers 2 universes in range and is High 3-A or low 2-C in potency. (OP should specify)
If you don't resist it, you can't take any actions unless the old man writes that you do. So Kratos is just immediately incapped, since he has no resistance.
- 10,901
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Unless it's passive, Kratos would first have to get as far as to use it. Without the old man allowing it he can't even think.
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He/Him- 1,998
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Don't you need to have R>f over something to use Plot Manip on it?
- 2,379
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Isn't that NLF? Would the same apply for fate hax as well?
- 10,901
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No. The old man definitely doesn't, as... well he clearly isn't transcendental to his world yet manipulates it anyway.
- 10,901
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Why would it be? It really doesn't matter what your technique is if you just get incapped before you get to use it.
- 10,901
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Yeah, it is passive win plot hax. But being powerful isn't what makes something a NLF.
A NLF comes from extrapolating things beyond what their showings or mechanics imply it can do. Like, if I said he can plot hax a Tier 1 entity that would be a NLF, as it has no showings of affecting Tier 1 stuff.
But Kratos phsyically isn't Tier 1 or anything. So even if he had some higher tier technique, affecting Kartos himself to stop him from using it in the first place isn't a NLF.
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He/Him- 1,998
- 1,524
If Old Man can use his plot manip before Kratos can do anything, ig yeah he wins
- 3,097
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- Thread starter
- #16
so can plot manip bypass resistance by default ? Because you know kratos has plenty resistance including Mind/memory manip
- 10,901
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Can't bypass resistance to the ability, but Kratos doesn't have resistance to plot manip. Simple resistance to mind manip won't do, for essentially the same reason simple mind resistance wouldn't prevent someone from conceptually erasing your mind. A different deeper aspect of reality is manipulated to achieve this.
- 10,901
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The old man's plot manip can control some abstract things like The Nothing, which is NEP Nature Type 2 stuff or the lies those who fall into it become.
Also, the description Kratos has regarding his AE is vague as hell to the point that it sounds just like a title. Has Kratos ever done anything while in purely abstract form? Wouldn't physical/mental incap incap him anyway?
- 32,835
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He's Type 2 (He was supposed to have his "Death, Destroyer of Worlds" title changed to that because he took on Thanatos's job but didn't lose his physical body, but we're waiting for a CRT to fix it), he embodies a Type 1 Concept, Hope, but he is practically untouchable to AE Type 1 beings like Fear Zeus, who is literally Fear itself, and Hope is stronger than Fear, and Fear is the strongest of all the Great Evils, which dwarf even the Primordials in terms of power, Primordials themselves being abstract concepts that predated reality.
- 10,901
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If he's type 2, i.e. needs a physical body, then the old man can't kill him (well, he could maybe kill him, but it's speculation), but since his physical form is permanently incapped Kratos probably loses regardless.
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PoH Kratos can keep coming back endlessly as long as Hope exists, that and Hope won't allow him to die.
- 10,901
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Yeah, but old man can win just by incap by just making it so that Kratos doesn't do anything.
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So hax on a conceptual level is stronger then normal hax?
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Is the Old Man's incap powerful enough to affect AE Type 1 concepts?
- 10,901
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Didn't you say Kratos retained his body? If so that gets incapped regardless of whether or not the concept is affected.
Now as for whether a concept would be: There is some indication that the plot hax can affect abstract things since it can affect NEP nature type 2 stuff. But there is no particular evidence regarding concepts.
Other way around I assune Kratos verse has no particular feats of their concepts being above plot.
So whether the old man can affect the concept is inconclusive.
But, as said, that doesn't stop him from incapping Kratos on the physical level.
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He did retain his body, but he was effectively immunized from any and all forms of interaction from actual abstract entities like Fear Zeus.
I see. So it's a stomp then?
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Can I see the scans/video of this?
- 4,773
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What makes NEP type 2 having the same property as AE type 1?
- 32,835
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It's on Kratos's profile.
Here they be:
Fear Zeus can't even touch Kratos anymore, but Kratos has no problems interacting with him. Fear Zeus consistently keeps hurting himself trying to punch Kratos as if he's hitting a brick wall instead.
- 10,901
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You can have AE Type 1 based on nothingness. Given, I'm not trying to argue that the old man definitely can affect concepts. But that he can affect other abstract stuff is a suggestive eyebrow wiggling that he might. If it came down to that I would still consider this just inconclusive, though.
But as said, it doesn't matter. If his physical body isn't resistant to plot manip, and he acts through that physical body, the physical body gets incapped regardless of all concept stuff and Kratos with it.
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So it's just an incap then? Kratos can just breathe but the old man uses plot manip so neither end up doing anything then?
- 28
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Old Man FRA.
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There are no win conditions tho. Only incap.
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Oh, alright.
- 10,901
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Basically. Neither do anything, but since the old man can still do his normal stuff otherwise he would be considered the winner via incapacitation in this scenario.
- 32,835
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So, a stomp?
Vietthai96
He/Him- 10,245
- 14,614
Yes, since the old man just passive incap Kratos, make the guy done nothing
- Status
