Kirby Cosmology Upgrade Part 2

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Unless it's in VC, which is also how my translator tends to prefer to do it.

Written discussions are preferable as they allow for people to be particular with their wording and method of conveying their ideas. Spoken discussions give people a sense of urgency to answer a person since the conversation is in live time, which is not easy for some people to do. Since the VS Battles Wiki revolves around words being written on pages and message threads, people should only make such an exception if they want to. In the case that they don't want to make the exception, then the next best thing for you to do is provide your translator's ideas if you can. Edit: I meant provide your translator's ideas by showing screenshots or recorded audio (depending on how your translator gave you the information).

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I already showcased his ideas. The whole reason I wanted VSBW translators to talk to him directly was because I showcased everything and debunked all the counter-arguments but it's still not enough because of what essentially boils down to nothing more than "Yeah, I read your sources, but no, those terms are more ambiguous than that." If you really want scans, here you go.

But at this point, I'd probably be better off making a third blog, and I don't think anyone wants that. I sure don't.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

I already showcased his ideas. The whole reason I wanted VSBW translators to talk to him directly was because I showcased everything and debunked all the counter-arguments but it's still not enough because of what essentially boils down to nothing more than "Yeah, I read your sources, but no, those terms are more ambiguous than that." If you really want scans, here you go.

But at this point, I'd probably be better off making a third blog, and I don't think anyone wants that. I sure don't.

It seems to me like the Japanese knowers of the VS Battles Wiki only recently started to help with this thread, so they might have missed those screenshots if you sent them before. Make sure that they have looked at those screenshots.

I might have missed some details too, but I'm pretty much just here to help with the flow of this thread. So, your translator and the Japanese knowers of the VS Battles Wiki can't interact directly, and have provided insight that shouldn't coexist. I'm not sure how this thread can reach a conclusion in a way that's fair to both sides. Maybe someone can settle this once and for all by attempting to disprove specifically what your translator wrote instead of providing their own ideas that contradict it. That's the only option I can think of right now, otherwise this revision is deemed as rejected as far as I can tell. I assume that you could always contact your translator again for further inquiries, but adding the translator's responses to those inquiries to this thread could make it more confusing.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

That's my first time sending those screenshots specifically. What difference are they supposed to make?

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

That's my first time sending those screenshots specifically. What difference are they supposed to make?

I explained what use this might have in my previous message. However, it is true that your options are getting limited.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

If you really think it'll help with my point, I'll ask Ant to tag the translators already involved since I can't do it myself.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

If you really think it'll help with my point, I'll ask Ant to tag the translators already involved since I can't do it myself.

I wouldn't describe it as helping your point, since before you showed the screenshots the VS Battles Wiki translators disagreed, so they'd probably do the same again. The purpose of this is for the VS Battles Wiki translators to convey what they think about your revision while addressing your translator's words directly rather than you. Right now this is the closest we can get to a fair conclusion, whether your revision gets accepted or rejected.

 

[Antvasima]

So would it be best if we close this thread?

 

[Eseseso]

Sad to see this thread die.

 

[Pikaman]

So would it be best if we close this thread?

Why exactly? The issue is a debate on the matter of translation, of which Pepto seems very willing (albeit frustrated) to continue engaging in, and has been actively attempting to find a way for his translators to argue their case, disengagement from opposition shouldn’t shut down this thread

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that this thread will continue to drag on for a while longer then.

 

[James_Plays_4_Games]

Okay. I suppose that this thread will continue to drag on for a while longer then.

Indeed, I've mentioned before that this thread is nearing its end, but it doesn't necessarily have to be now. If a VS Battles Wiki translator analyzes the screenshots that Peptocoptr27 sent a few posts ago, then I think whatever happens at that point would be a good point to conclude this thread at.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Indeed, I've mentioned before that this thread is nearing its end, but it doesn't necessarily have to be now. If a VS Battles Wiki translator analyzes the screenshots that Peptocoptr27 sent a few posts ago, then I think whatever happens at that point would be a good point to conclude this thread at.

At this point I have to agree.

Why exactly? The issue is a debate on the matter of translation, of which Pepto seems very willing (albeit frustrated) to continue engaging in, and has been actively attempting to find a way for his translators to argue their case, disengagement from opposition shouldn’t shut down this thread

I'm long past the point of frustration. I'm just tired. I've been arguing this upgrade out of principle rather than an actual desire to have a tier 1 Kirby verse. My mind isn't changed. It has no reason to be. The mods and translators mostly say that my sources don't back up my argument even though they do. And one of them even said that my sources support THIER side, which shows a fundemental misunderstanding of those sources. Regardless, I can't pretend to care anymore. It's been well over a year and we're not even half-way done with this whole thing. I havr better things to do.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

In the meantime, I wanted to ask everyone here: Do you think AD at the very least qualifies as a 4D space? It may seem like a low-balled no brainer to some, but I'm still gonna ask.

 

[Antvasima]

In the meantime, I wanted to ask everyone here: Do you think AD at the very least qualifies as a 4D space? It may seem like a low-balled no brainer to some, but I'm still gonna ask.

@Eficiente @Firestorm808

 

[Peptocoptr27]

boomp

 

[Firestorm808]

In the meantime, I wanted to ask everyone here: Do you think AD at the very least qualifies as a 4D space? It may seem like a low-balled no brainer to some, but I'm still gonna ask.

Yes.

 

[Antvasima]

In the meantime, I wanted to ask everyone here: Do you think AD at the very least qualifies as a 4D space? It may seem like a low-balled no brainer to some, but I'm still gonna ask.

Yes.

Okay. So what should we do here based on that, and otherwise, then?

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Okay. So what should we do here based on that, and otherwise, then?

I was hoping Effi would respond too, but I guess he's dead after all.

Yes.

It should also be beyond baseline 4D, correct?

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. So what should we do here based on that, and otherwise, then?

@Firestorm808

 

[Eficiente]

Yes.

What would be the reasons for this?

 

[Firestorm808]

What would be the reasons for this?

If I'm understanding the novel statements correctly, Another Dimension is stated to be the collective space between timelines.

 

[Eficiente]

The novel is its own canon, and was even made by a guy who doesn't work at Nintendo but does novels of many game franchises. Before it even came out they wanted to play the narrative that it would be canon for no good reason, they simply said it over and over.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

If I'm understanding the novel statements correctly, Another Dimension is stated to be the collective space between timelines.

It's not just in the novels. It's in an official Twitter statement backed up by what we see in-game

 

[Antvasima]

It's not just in the novels. It's in an official Twitter statement backed up by what we see in-game

@Eficiente

So what do you think that we should do based on this thread?

 

[Eficiente]

The statement doesn't say it's the collective space between timelines, just that it's the space between dimensions as a throw away comment. It comes out of nowhere to claim

• it has 4-D timelines as things around itself rather than just 3-D universes,
• that it's all the collective space between dimensions, rather than some of the space between them (as in, some tunnels in between cities are located "between cities", but they're not all the space there is in between cities, only a very small fraction),
• and that it's between all dimensions out there rather than some of them.

@Eficiente

So what do you think that we should do based on this thread?

Idk if they're satisfied. If they are, they can write on top of the blogs they made that they are rejected while linking this thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is probably fine then.

Should we close this thread now, or are there any revisions that should be made based on it?

 

[Mephistus]

Indeed, I've mentioned before that this thread is nearing its end, but it doesn't necessarily have to be now. If a VS Battles Wiki translator analyzes the screenshots that Peptocoptr27 sent a few posts ago, then I think whatever happens at that point would be a good point to conclude this thread at.

This is what i would prefer for a conclusion here as well if no direct discussion with peptos translator will happen.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if you list all of the scans and/or text segments that you need translated, I can send a request notification to them.

 

[Eseseso]

So absolutely zero revisions?

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know, but it seems so.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

The statement doesn't say it's the collective space between timelines, just that it's the space between dimensions as a throw away comment. It comes out of nowhere to claim

• it has 4-D timelines as things around itself rather than just 3-D universes,

Dude, how can it not have timelines around itself when it acts as to gateway to different points in time along with allowing for dimensional travel? The fact that its roads can lead to different coordinates in space AND time across multiple universes sounds pretty blatantly 4D, and its many statements of being "beyond" space-time and dimensions would serve as undeniable confirmation to that fact even IF my kanjis didn't mean what I claim they do.

• that it's all the collective space between dimensions, rather than some of the space between them (as in, some tunnels in between cities are located "between cities", but they're not all the space there is in between cities, only a very small fraction),

You literally said AD contains universes. That, by definition, means it makes up all the space around them. You even used the same argument as the one I use to back up your claim. If the fading flat pictures in the background of the AD level aren't timelines, we at least agree that they're universes, and if that's the case, then the 3D volume of those universes is perceived as flat and transparent relative to Another Dimension so either way, there's no way AD is just 3D.

• and that it's between all dimensions out there rather than some of them.

I can sort of understand why that would be a requirement for 5D, but for 4D, it makes no sense.

Idk if they're satisfied. If they are, they can write on top of the blogs they made that they are rejected while linking this thread.

No. I'm already settling for way less than I should out of sheer exhaustion and boredom. To suggest this so soon after your low effort rebuttal is almost insulting. Especially since you abandoned this thread.

 

[Antvasima]

@Firestorm808

We would appreciate if you can read this message and the following connected ones:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/kirby-cosmology-upgrade-part-2.126311/post-5210310

 

[Eficiente]

Dude, how can it not have timelines around itself when it acts as to gateway to different points in time along with allowing for dimensional travel? The fact that its roads can lead to different coordinates in space AND time across multiple universes sounds pretty blatantly 4D, and its many statements of being "beyond" space-time and dimensions would serve as undeniable confirmation to that fact even IF my kanjis didn't mean what I claim they do.

The conclusion is nonsensical and made up by you, the fact that it's used to time travel just means it had weird properties on its time, same with space, you can't say from that that it has to be because it's all bigger than whole timelines as that is neither the only conclusion to make from that nor the most likely. Another Dimension is used for time travel because it can do that, that's it, more than it is made up. Anything can be used for time travel and dimensional travel w/o needing to be 4-D, it just needs to have those powers.

Another Dimension is outside the main universe, so of course it's beyond it.

You literally said AD contains universes. That, by definition, means it makes up all the space around them. You even used the same argument as the one I use to back up your claim. If the fading flat pictures in the background of the AD level aren't timelines, we at least agree that they're universes, and if that's the case, then the 3D volume of those universes is perceived as flat and transparent relative to Another Dimension so either way, there's no way AD is just 3D.

The space between universes is unquantifiable and can be whatever, that AD has universes doesn't mean it has to be all the space around other universes that aren't part of AD. You're making up rules based on made up presumptions.

I don't have to "at least agree" with that, as it's more made up stuff; we don't know what those fading pictures were because nothing is stated about them, they could have been 3-D or even 4-D with what we saw being limited to game mechanics & design inaccuracy, they could have been portals, they could have been images with clairvoyance on the universes inside AD (like the Speed Force showing images), or they could have been universes while their inside is bigger than how it looks on the outside. We don't know.

I can sort of understand why that would be a requirement for 5D, but for 4D, it makes no sense.

Any present moment in a universe inside AD is just as 3-D as in a normal universe, rather than 4-D. Otherwise AD is still a small multiverse.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Eficiente.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Firestorm808

We would appreciate if you can read this message and the following connected ones:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/kirby-cosmology-upgrade-part-2.126311/post-5210310

I am fine with his justifications.

 

[Antvasima]

Do you mean that you agree with Eficiente?

 

[Peptocoptr27]

The conclusion is nonsensical and made up by you, the fact that it's used to time travel just means it had weird properties on its time, same with space, you can't say from that that it has to be because it's all bigger than whole timelines as that is neither the only conclusion to make from that nor the most likely. Another Dimension is used for time travel because it can do that, that's it, more than it is made up. Anything can be used for time travel and dimensional travel w/o needing to be 4-D, it just needs to have those powers.

So what you're saying is that AD is using hax to teleport its targets through time and space? And that it can somehow bestow that power upon its users to allow them to travel to specific locations in space-time or casually drift through it? By refusing to make any kind of educated guess other than "time is weird there but it's still a 3D space", this is essentially the assumption you're making. Given how it's used and its place in the cosmology, there's no way AD doesn't extend throughout time in one way or another. The most logical assumption to make with the information we have is that the roads of Another Dimension extend throughout space and time. They're roads. Not a magical sentient mcguffin that grant the power of time travel.

Another Dimension is outside the main universe, so of course it's beyond it.
The space between universes is unquantifiable and can be whatever, that AD has universes doesn't mean it has to be all the space around other universes that aren't part of AD. You're making up rules based on made up presumptions.

And you're changing the rules after noticing the contradiction in your own words. You made a big deal about how Another Dimension doesn't necessarily fill up all the space between universes, but rather some of it, but now that you remember that it does in fact have universes within itself, you act as if making up all of the space around every universe in the cosmology is more important, without bringing up why that would be necessary. What's stopping AD from having a 4D space without containing every timeline in existence inside of it?

I don't have to "at least agree" with that, as it's more made up stuff; we don't know what those fading pictures were because nothing is stated about them, they could have been 3-D or even 4-D with what we saw being limited to game mechanics & design inaccuracy,

Do you no longer agree your own assessment or do you simply think it's just as likely as the possibilities outlined below?

they could have been portals,

I already debunked the portal theory earlier in the thread.

they could have been images with clairvoyance on the universes inside AD (like the Speed Force showing images),

Occam's razor says otherwise and the speed force is a bad example because not only is it of a higher dimensionality than the timelines it has claivoyance over, but I'm pretty sure those universe images serve a purpose to the lore and to speed force users. Unlike the ones in AD which are just there.

or they could have been universes while their inside is bigger than how it looks on the outside. We don't know.

Of course the universe is bigger on the inside than how it looks on the outside. We know that the Lor Starcutter isn't bigger than the universe. It's just moving in a higher-D space which dwarfs them.

Any present moment in a universe inside AD is just as 3-D as in a normal universe, rather than 4-D. Otherwise AD is still a small multiverse.

I agree with that. I always did. It's the space that contains those universes which is 4D. I obviously also agree that AD is a small multiverse, but guess what? A small multiverse is inherently 4D in size. All that I'm arguing is that the space which contains that multiverse should also be 4D. To refute that by saying "Any present moment in a universe inside AD is just as 3-D as in a normal universe", you're implying that AD's space between dimensions has a present moment to begin with, when we both know for sure that it doesn't have linear time like any universe would. Otherwise it couldn't freely be used for time travel and there would be no point in saying it's "beyond space and time" (let alone "beyond time and dimensions") in any meaning of the word "beyond". It's either timeless of superior to time. Regardless of how we translate kanjis, the latter is more likely because the former requires more ludicrous assumptions. If my translation of Koeru is correct, it's undeniably superior, at least enough to be 4D. If my definition of Jigen is correct, it's qualitatively superior, making it 5D.

This is what i would prefer for a conclusion here as well if no direct discussion with peptos translator will happen.

Alright. Let's do that.

Well, if you list all of the scans and/or text segments that you need translated, I can send a request notification to them.

The legitimacy of these claims by an actual Japanese speaker regarding the term Koeru (越える vs 超える) and Jigen (次元)
.
Backed up by these sources.

 

[Eficiente]

So what you're saying is that AD is using hax to teleport its targets through time and space? And that it can somehow bestow that power upon its users to allow them to travel to specific locations in space-time or casually drift through it? By refusing to make any kind of educated guess other than "time is weird there but it's still a 3D space", this is essentially the assumption you're making. Given how it's used and its place in the cosmology, there's no way AD doesn't extend throughout time in one way or another. The most logical assumption to make with the information we have is that the roads of Another Dimension extend throughout space and time. They're roads. Not a magical sentient mcguffin that grant the power of time travel.

It's common for weird realities in fiction to have properties that can be named as super powers, and for characters to exploit those powers as resources. The Quantum Realm in the MCU enables time travel and teleportation, to give 1 known example. It's limited to call it "AD is using hax", it's misguided to say "[X place] is using [X power]", they may be doing so or simply facilitating the use of those powers for others, you don't know the properties of the super tech Star Dream used to summon GK via Another Dimension, nor the properties of the magic used to make portals to Another Dimension, you don't know how that contributes to the Dimensional Travel & Time Travel (They likely apport with everything in the sense of Dimensional Travel due to needing to make portals). Even if you knew for certain that they didn't contribute in any of that (which you don't) and AD had those powers, yes it would, regardless of how you don't like it.

Needless to say but a small multiverse can't be a mcguffin, you're just making up a silly version of what I said to displease certain people from noticing how sensical it is for AD to have those powers.

And you're changing the rules after noticing the contradiction in your own words. You made a big deal about how Another Dimension doesn't necessarily fill up all the space between universes, but rather some of it, but now that you remember that it does in fact have universes within itself, you act as if making up all of the space around every universe in the cosmology is more important, without bringing up why that would be necessary. What's stopping AD from having a 4D space without containing every timeline in existence inside of it?

Idk by what presumptions you say that. Another Dimension doesn't necessarily fill up all the space between universes. Where is "making up all of the space around every universe in the cosmology" more important? The fact that AD's regular space in any universe it has is 3-D makes it not be 4-D in that sense, AD is 4-D if you look at it from a 4-D point of view.

Do you no longer agree your own assessment or do you simply think it's just as likely as the possibilities outlined below?

I already debunked the portal theory earlier in the thread.

Occam's razor says otherwise and the speed force is a bad example because not only is it of a higher dimensionality than the timelines it has claivoyance over, but I'm pretty sure those universe images serve a purpose to the lore and to speed force users. Unlike the ones in AD which are just there.

Of course the universe is bigger on the inside than how it looks on the outside. We know that the Lor Starcutter isn't bigger than the universe. It's just moving in a higher-D space which dwarfs them.

I simply disagree with you then. Also comics have a sh*t ton of 3-D places with clairvoyance that display images of random other places and events, I just went with a known one. You obviously don't need to higher dimensionality for something as basic as displaying images.

I agree with that. I always did. It's the space that contains those universes which is 4D. I obviously also agree that AD is a small multiverse, but guess what? A small multiverse is inherently 4D in size. All that I'm arguing is that the space which contains that multiverse should also be 4D.

Sure, that needs to happen for it to be a multiverse. I put it clear because of the sheer amount of misunderstandings.

If my translation of Koeru is correct, it's undeniably superior, at least enough to be 4D. If my definition of Jigen is correct, it's qualitatively superior, making it 5D.

I don't agree that you know what qualitatively superior means, nor Jigen.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Before I reply to all of this, I wanna ask this question in isolation.
Do you think AD has a linear flow of time like the universes within it?