King Hassan vs Fiamma of the Right

[Schnee_One]

Hey

I wasn't talking to you.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

People seem to forget about Evening Bell, which kills ones fate

That basically makes it impossible for Fiamma to win onec Hassan attacks

 

[Schnee_One]

Which is why HR strikes him before he attacks

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

How?

Literaly no one has said that HR can detect Hassan before he attacks

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Someone mentioned Hassan's PC is above F/SF Assassin, which means his PC is essentially reality warping IIRC

 

[Schnee_One]

BTW just gonna mention that his PC goes down once he mutters the word Azrael before swinging his blade

Also going to point out that responding to really close range attacks that appear without being seen is a cake walk for HR

Hell, its literal Speed justification is reacting to a Lightspeed Lazer from close range the moment it appeared before striking said satalite instantly.

So

PC doesn't work? Fiamma ever so slightly twists his hand, /thread

PC works? Gramps walks up to Fiamma sipping tea, says "Azra-" and gets sliced instantly /thread

 

[Schnee_One]

<Is physically capable of detecting incorporal Angels and demons as well as unnatural phenomena from a planet away

<PC won't be detected by HR

Lol?

 

[Schnee_One]

how would it bypass it again ? HR is still part of him it would still locate the treat, u can think of it as an arm with some a basic ai on it, it does as fiamma wants and can auto detect danger and eliminates them if deemed so

and it would still work as he is making the attack (obv knowledge is transmitted from fiamma to the arm and vice verse) just the automatic defense can work without fiamma knowing or giving input the only thing fiamma can control is the ammount of power used by his power as it will always be just enough to defend or attack ( his higher form loses some of this restriction but not all)

Quite a few people @H13. Me included

Not like it matters since PC deactivated after being used

 

[Paul_Frank]

His pc makes his presence indistinguishable from the world until he attacks yes

Let's say for the sake of argument that hr can't auto defend or detect hassan

Fiamma still knows he's in a fight so he tps instantly and can nuke the area

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Quite a few people @H13. Me included

Not like it matters since PC deactivated after being used

IIRC, PC doesn't actually deactivate when you attack, it's rank drops.

 

[Paul_Frank]

IIRC, PC doesn't actually deactivate when you attack, it's rank drops.

No it turns off

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

His pc makes his presence indistinguishable from the world until he attacks yes

Let's say for the sake of argument that hr can't auto defend or detect hassan

Fiamma still knows he's in a fight so he tps instantly and can nuke the area

He wouldn't know where pr what hia opponent is

For he knows that would only make them stronger

Anyways, gramps walks up and Evening Bells

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

No it turns off

No

It normally ranks doen but Hassan's turns off iirc

 

[SchroKatze]

Holy Right just AoEs and bye bye gramps. Infinite speed AoE slaps are also a thing. Also, the "killing one's fate" comes from a random statement that says "its like they are killed by fate". It needs to actually connect to the target to even take effect.

Theres also the fact that Fiamma goes planetary TP+PC+HR uses automatic slap from the start

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Just going to wait for the Nasunerds to come ere

 

[Paul_Frank]

@hl3 no hassans is the one that does turn off and the others rank down

He still knows he's in a fight with someone in that area so assuming hr can't detect and auto defend(which it can) he would just tp away and nuke(assuming hr can't detect hassan) or snipe(since hr can still detect hassan)

 

[Schnee_One]

Anybody remember the part of the book where HR slapped away a Lazer?

Replace the Lazer with gramps

And it's GG

 

[Paul_Frank]

Just going to wait for the Nasunerds to come ere

I am a nasunerd so yikes

 

[SchroKatze]

What Schnee said.

HR can attack on its own. It blocked a laser the moment it was going to touch Fiamma. Fiamma didn't even notice the attack.

 

[SchroKatze]

Bump

 

[Andrew48]

Fiamma FRA, I find myself very well versed in Nasuverse, and Holy Right is way above the capability of a grand.

Grandpa Hassan in canon only severed a goddess's contract, and Nasuverse gods aren't something that spetacular, not compared to the holy right. Gramps himself is strong, but the applying concept of death attack sacrificed his grand status to do it, and even then, physically speaking he only sliced off 2 big wings, its not that strong, and he had his hands tied fighting Tiamat's 11 sons, and required Gil with EA to deliver the final killing blow.

If it was Fiamma, the entire fight would have ended with 1 slap.

The sheer difference in power is too much, and Nasuverse hax falter in front of absolute power, since in Nasu's words, the power to recreate the planet is the ultimate mystery, and guess what Fiamma could do.

I rest my case.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Wanted to point out something real fast. Andrew, you are entirely wrong about Gramps dealing with Tiamat. Gramps wasn't a Grand from the moment he is already on the Singularity, is just that his Saint Graph remained powered up. The power was a remnant that got used up after he applied the concept of death to her.

If the Grands were so hopelessly weak he couldn't do such a basic thing with the first, and therefore "weakest" of the Beasts, they wouldn't have any reason to face the 7 Evils, they'd end wiped out.

 

[John985]

Pretty sure that fiamma can't kill tiamat at all.

 

[Andrew48]

Wanted to point out something real fast.
Andrew, you are entirely wrong about Gramps dealing with Tiamat. Gramps wasn't a Grand from the moment he is already on the Singularity, is just that his Saint Graph remained powered up. The power was a remnant that got used up after he applied the concept of death to her.

If the Grands were so hopelessly weak he couldn't do such a basic thing with the first, and therefore "weakest" of the Beasts, they wouldn't have any reason to face the 7 Evils, they'd end wiped out.

Okay, first of all, the "weakest" beast is pure headcanon at this point, there are no evidence of this claim. Second of all, there are no explanation for how they face the 7 evils, it could likely be 7 to 1, since beasts awaken in turns. Lastly, factoring in how Qinshihuang in 2.3 was said to rival a grand, and he was no where near planetary, so far the beast with best showing, Goetia can only manage to pierce through earth with his laser after 3000 years of prep.

I don't see Gramps stronger than Goetia, which by extention, I also don't see him stronger than Fiamma. In fact, with the exception of Velber, no Nasuverse character can really get over Fiamma. (unless you count the spiriton world, which I don't, cause its the spiriton world, therefore a computer simulation, ie. not real, see Tamamo's change of strength between the real world and the spiriton world).

 

[Yobo_Blue]

You do realize Tiamat is a higher tier then Fiamma....

 

[Andrew48]

Pretty sure that fiamma can't kill tiamat at all.

Just planet bust, the paradox immortality sounds fancy, but its really filled with loopholes, just have them in a "world" that counts as "dead world", than you can easily slap her to pieces.

For all the fancy terms, its beatable with a sort of sealed world (which is what the underworld is in Nasuverse), there are similar tricks in Toaru verse.

As for the concept of death, just smash with raw power (ie. Velber, UO, God hand), Nasuverse hax doesn't eclipse planet-level destructability, anything above planet-level instantly causes the hax to wear off. Holy right should have no problem erasing every trace of Tiamat with one strike.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I'd...... highly suggest making a CRT for that then.

 

[John985]

your the one who is doing pure headcanon. Gun God is putting the concept of death to the Target. And look at all the immortality of Tiamat. HR can't do shit at it.

Your other examples doesn't have the Immortality same as Tiamat.

 

[Andrew48]

your the one who is doing pure headcanon. Gun God is putting the concept of death to the Target. And look at all the immortality of Tiamat. HR can't do shit at it.

That is a very bad translation, the black barrel inflict damage based on Grain within a being, its just a very powerful execute attack. There are no concept of death sheneigan's related. That was one of the main misinformation with Notes, VV was merely saying UO didn't understand earth concept of death, but ado edem still had no problem smashing 2 of them into pieces with raw power.

You really need to do some more research on Nasuverse, raw power eclipses any hax in Nasuverse, the strongest things in it, Excalibur at full power, was literally just a super laser. God hand was also said to be immortal, than Nasu said it did not apply when too much raw power went through and killed him anyway.

Besides, if we go by concept, HR's actual concept is "Absolute Victory", getting the Victory result without any other requirements, a literal I win button.

If we go by feat, Peak Fiamma could vaporize a planet with a fingerpoke, literally no effort to him, and recreate any and all Christianity Miracle. Having dominance over Chrisantian Phase would allow him to began venture towards MGs with Phase fuckery.

Also there is also fairyfication, an ability made to force 2-A beings into being mortal.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Uh.....

You also may want to clean up your grammar

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

-Snip-

Please go ahead and post proof for what you are claiming then. Do you have anything approximating proof that Gramps was a Grand and lost his power doing what he did, despite the fact we know he threw away the rank of Grand rather than being depowrered for doing that to Tiamat?

 

[John985]

Black Barrel , also called Longinus, which he excavated from the sealed region of Atlasia. It is gun that is a "Conceptual Weapon of natural life-span", capable of imposing the notion of limited life-span into the body of near-immortal creatures. Composed of Fifth True Theoretical Element, bullets fired from the gun will disintegrate all instances of Grain and Ether they come into contact with, ignoring any parameters of beings that intake either substance to deliver direct damage.

And I do know about Nasuverse. Cause I played all they're games. And not all the info is in Notes, most of them are in Character Material the was published later on.

 

[Andrew48]

-Snip-

Please go ahead and post proof for what you are claiming then. Do you have anything approximating proof that Gramps was a Grand and lost his power doing what he did, despite the fact we know he threw away the rank of Grand rather than being depowrered for doing that to Tiamat?

https://www.bilibili.com/video/av18624809/

Here is the official translation of Chapter 7 by the Chinese TM community, verified by multiple top members of Fate Tieba, the largest TM fan community in China.

The precise words, before Gramps chop is "the name of Grand is not something I need, the Proof of strongest now lies in this sword", not is this sword, lies in this sword, wording is important, since Nasu loves playing with wording (remember god hand?). After checking with FGOM, the conclusion was that Gramps traded his left his grand position than traded the remaining powers into the death granting strike.

Cause right afterwards, you get into the 11 sons of Tiamat fight, and afterwords, Gramps is gone, let's ignore the possibility of Nasu being lazy and have a tendency to use asspulls, the assumption would be that Gramps is off fighting the 11 sons (based on the him being available for assitantance in game).

In which means 11 sons = Current Gramps, let's go on a high assumption that 1 sons = 5 pillars, this would yield you roughly 55 demon pillars of fighting power. That's still no where close to Fiamma.

Even if we go with the idea that fully-power Gramps with full Grand support can do the Tiamat chop all day long, that's still not that impressive, Tiamat's dragon body according to official TM data is just above 60m.

 

[Andrew48]

Black Barrel , also called Longinus, which he excavated from the sealed region of Atlasia. It is gun that is a "Conceptual Weapon of natural life-span", capable of imposing the notion of limited life-span into the body of near-immortal creatures. Composed of Fifth True Theoretical Element, bullets fired from the gun will disintegrate all instances of Grain and Ether they come into contact with, ignoring any parameters of beings that intake either substance to deliver direct damage.
And I do know about Nasuverse. Cause I played all they're games. And not all the info is in Notes, most of them are in Character Material the was published later on.

Right, natural life span, it doesn't say concept of death does it? Again typical Nasu wordplay, its not the mystical eye of death, if you think it shoots something and instantly kills it, you are very wrong.

I also read all character materials, and extended materials, even the recent FGOM ones to the recent new release by Meteo. Even Nasu interviews, like the one where Makoto Sanda asked Nasu, aren't some lores contridicting each other, only for Nasu to say, "they all got burned up by Human Order Incineration! Fight me Sanda!"

 

[John985]

It puts natural lifespan that's what it is.

 

[THOK_AST_THOK]

Six Sisters only refer to the weapon as that. What Black Barrel actually does is different. It doesn't force a natural lifespan or the concept of death. It just impose a self-destructive factor to whatever the bullet hit if they're made out of True Ether/Gin. While the Replica just eject Toxin proportionate to the natural lifespan of the target

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Not having the concept of death in Nasu isn't all that special either. It just mean an instant death-based hax like MEoDP won't work on you. It's even outright stated in the Ultimate One's character entry that their activity would be stopped if you just physically destroy them

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Which is exactly what happened to them when Ado Edem hit them with that bigass sword that got bigger proportionate to the size of the enemy

Besides, whether Fiamma being able to kill Tiamat or not is entirely irrelevant. Don't even see the point of bringing that up considering not KH himself is capable of killing her. Fiamma swipe quite easily. Borderline stomp even

 

[John985]

Did Gun God actually killed Type Venus? No he didn't and there's no proof that Ado Edem Killed Type Saturn completely, it only destroyed the body.

And Andrew is the one who derail the thread first.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

So you don't actually provide anything meaningful to the table to prove Gramps depowers because of what he did to Tiamat, instead of depowering because he wasn't even a Grand anymore and only had left over power he used to do that.

By your proposal, Gramps does a single thing to anyone even comparable and he's suddenly downgraded so much the competition could poke him to death.

 

[THOK_AST_THOK]

At that point it's just semantics. Bottomline is that they don't matter anymore if they're destroyed physically. You could argue they didn't really die because they have no death or whatever, but they're definitely gone from the immediate vicinity. You could call it whatever you want, it doesn't really matter. And as far as known evidences/material goes, arguing further is pointless. We don't know whether they respawn somewhere, whether some other lifeform of that planet immediately took the mantle of the Ultimate One, whether they're capable of exerting some sort of influences, etc. Physically destroying beings that don't have the concept of death in Type-Moon is a legitimate way of decisively dealing with them, of which many characters across fictions are capable of doing.

Couldn't care less about who derail first. On that regard then let's just go back and keep it on-topic

It was confirmed by You that KH loses just his Grand status when he joins you to fight Tiamat (as Grand doesn't belong to people) while he loses his uber saint graph when he mortalized Tiamat here

http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthrea...NS-SPOILERS)?p=2703088&viewfull=1#post2703088

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Grace is over ages ago....