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Seems like death manip won't work, so I'll switch to Kenshiro
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Kenshiro Vs Zeref
- Thread starter LordAizenSama
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@OIYIG
Why use time stop when you can kill everything with ease? Well, barring Natsu. But time reversal is better than time stopping at some cases. Anyway someone mind doing a vote count?
Why use time stop when you can kill everything with ease? Well, barring Natsu. But time reversal is better than time stopping at some cases. Anyway someone mind doing a vote count?
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I'm agreeing on Grudge's points here. While im not sure whether Kenshiro can keep Zeref down for good, i do think that Zeref main offensive hax which is death magic won't affect him. So i'm leaning toward inconclusive myself.
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Voting pwriod is on.
Also although Kenshiro's stamina is high it's not limitless. What would happen if Zeref just plays keep away all the time while testing out attacks on him?
Also although Kenshiro's stamina is high it's not limitless. What would happen if Zeref just plays keep away all the time while testing out attacks on him?
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Technically I'm not sure if the voting is in since their are 2 inconclusives voted(I'd need to ask an experience if this stilleand the voting periodCoreOfimBalance(COB) said:
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Technically I'm not sure if the voting is in since their are 2 inconclusives voted(I'd need to ask an experience if this still means the voting period is on.)
That being said, in S.B.A, we have to follow what a character would normally do, so zeref in this case with his power up, won't test out new moves or test kens moves either. While kens fighting stamina is not limitless, it's incredibly high considering he can survive and fight without food for months, water for weeks, and can regain stamina with certain pressure points. Still it's not limitless like zeref is now.
Ken still has the ability to erase zeref once he uses Museo tensei.(unless you can prove that zeref with time regen can survive existence all erasure in which case inconclusive.)
Death magic had been agreed to not be able to affect him in MT, and time stop is not a ability he's ever used in combat(this argument has been used before in other zeref fights.) so at notmlike he will use it
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Zeref for reasons above.
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Kenshiro for a reason. Grudgmen states all the points.
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ll go with Kenshiro via the statments that Grudgeman stated.
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Kenshiro for Grudgemans reasonings above
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Zeref for reasons above
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Grudge please don't quote wall of texts. And did you read the part where I said Zeref plays keep away by spamming time stop? Knowing him and his awareness of time and space magic it's not shocking for him to sense what the other person can do. Did I forget to mention he can teleport and how Mard Geer, a creation of his that was no match for Zeref had Existence Erasure?
And if Devil Slayers could resist Existence Erasure well.. what's not to say that Zeref can regen from that ever since his upgrade considering he didn't even consider Mard a threat?
And if Devil Slayers could resist Existence Erasure well.. what's not to say that Zeref can regen from that ever since his upgrade considering he didn't even consider Mard a threat?
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Btw going by the reasoning of "Because of reason above" and having that reasoning refuted would mean all of your votes are moot right? Clarifying cause you know..
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No it doesn't discontinue votes because all statements from either debater are accepted based on the decision of voters. Regardless if you or I believe our statements debunk each other points. It's up to the voter themselves to decide if that is true. So until the voter comments and hanged his mind. Each vote with "reason above" still stands.CoreOfimBalance(COB) said:
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From what I see this is a big inconclusive huh?
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Depending on the scale of how right or wrong or whether it's debunked badly I'd say it "May" turn all votes moot or not. But hey agreeing with you on that. Not gonna argue any further.
Well yeah it'll be inconclusive if everyone just thinks Zeref is dumb enough to not play keep away from the guy he shouldn't touch.
Once again I repeat though and might as well bold out to make it obvious
Mard Geer has the ability to erase the existence of others
Zeref prior to his Fairy upgrade didn't even care about that ability and he created Mard Geer
Well yeah it'll be inconclusive if everyone just thinks Zeref is dumb enough to not play keep away from the guy he shouldn't touch.
Once again I repeat though and might as well bold out to make it obvious
Mard Geer has the ability to erase the existence of others
Zeref prior to his Fairy upgrade didn't even care about that ability and he created Mard Geer
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it'll be inconclusive if everyone just thinks Zeref is dumb enough to not play keep away from the guy he shouldn't touch.
Well it's not like Zeref even knows not to touch tats he thing, unlike most characters, Ken doesn't go and state the potency of his attacks or a abilities, just goes for the kill.
Once again I repeat though and might as well bold out to make it obvious
Mard Geer has the ability to erase the existence of others
Zeref prior to his Fairy upgrade didn't even care about that ability and he created Mard Geer
I've never once seen zeref state he is not worried about mard geers memento Mori, in fact it further helps my case because that move was created in order to kill zeref, and their is no proof that Zeref had gone in record stating he will not die from that move.
You can't assume just because zeref was the one who created mard geer, it's not like he has full knowledge of every little thing his demons do. For all we k ow mard geer created this move after leaving zeref or had been working to create this move.
If zeref was immune to existence erasure like your Hinting at, die hard FT fans would have pointed that out Long ago. But no because zeref never stated he could survive mards ultimate move. And we can't assume otherwise he could survive. And evidence points to it being actually capable of killing him unless zeref has demon magic which has been shown to counter MARD geers move itself.
Well it's not like Zeref even knows not to touch tats he thing, unlike most characters, Ken doesn't go and state the potency of his attacks or a abilities, just goes for the kill.
Once again I repeat though and might as well bold out to make it obvious
Mard Geer has the ability to erase the existence of others
Zeref prior to his Fairy upgrade didn't even care about that ability and he created Mard Geer
I've never once seen zeref state he is not worried about mard geers memento Mori, in fact it further helps my case because that move was created in order to kill zeref, and their is no proof that Zeref had gone in record stating he will not die from that move.
You can't assume just because zeref was the one who created mard geer, it's not like he has full knowledge of every little thing his demons do. For all we k ow mard geer created this move after leaving zeref or had been working to create this move.
If zeref was immune to existence erasure like your Hinting at, die hard FT fans would have pointed that out Long ago. But no because zeref never stated he could survive mards ultimate move. And we can't assume otherwise he could survive. And evidence points to it being actually capable of killing him unless zeref has demon magic which has been shown to counter MARD geers move itself.
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I literally just explained that Zeref who has a vast amount of experience and knowledge of magic of all kind (well a good kind and you do kbow he eas the onw who created that book?) should be known to him. And if he does Zeref would trigger the death ability. Once Zeref realizes Muso Tensei is pretty strong hes not gonna stand there and match it on.
And yet it failed. Not to mention the fact that Zeref created them in the hopes that they could eradicate him. Well iirc at least. Either way it didnt work.
Btw your reasoning of Zeref will let Kenshiro move first cause he allowed Natsu to do so? False. Zeref was edging Natsu to kill him because he wanta to see if he can really kill him and he wants to die. If Zeref was in character all the time hes gonna die to literally everyonr and not do anything.
Btw we also cant assume its 100% gonna kill Zeref either. For all we know Zeref tried that on himself but it failed. But thats speculation so we should avoid discussing that.
And yet it failed. Not to mention the fact that Zeref created them in the hopes that they could eradicate him. Well iirc at least. Either way it didnt work.
Btw your reasoning of Zeref will let Kenshiro move first cause he allowed Natsu to do so? False. Zeref was edging Natsu to kill him because he wanta to see if he can really kill him and he wants to die. If Zeref was in character all the time hes gonna die to literally everyonr and not do anything.
Btw we also cant assume its 100% gonna kill Zeref either. For all we know Zeref tried that on himself but it failed. But thats speculation so we should avoid discussing that.
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Going with Kenshiro here for reasons above.
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I love Kenshiro like I love God, but it seems Zeref is just too hax for the Hokuto Shinken.
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Damn that's uh a really strong statement,anywaysTeenAngel101 said:
Could you specially point out why zeref is too haxed, his big advantage is the death magic(which has been shown in manga to be capable of dodging and when Ken goes Museo tensei it was agreed that desthnmagic won't be able to hit him.)
And time regen(where than I discussed why kens Museo tensei will erase zerefs existence so he won't be a able to regen before the time reversing.)
And time stop isn't something he's show. To use in combat(used it once to talk wto th natsu, never uses it again, other zeref fights people agree to this fact when pointed out.)
So what other haxes may I ask that outclass Ken?
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Right, that's why everything around him dies right? And if it was such a dodgeability ability then why the heck is Zeref even worried about it? If it was dodgeable then he would be maintaing it to miss or telling others to crouch then.
How about teleportation spam for one thing... That's pretty much all you need really. And that's ignoring time stop.
Soooooo because one person didn't use one ability he's not allowed to use it again? That's a bit unfair don't you think....
How about teleportation spam for one thing... That's pretty much all you need really. And that's ignoring time stop.
Soooooo because one person didn't use one ability he's not allowed to use it again? That's a bit unfair don't you think....
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Right, that's why everything around him dies right? And if it was such a dodgeability ability then why the heck is Zeref even worried about it? If it was dodgeable then he would be maintaing it to miss or telling others to crouch then.
I can't explain to you why everyone doesnt just dodge the blast, all I'm stating is natsu was able to react and dodge the attack when it was randomly shot out. Plus Kens ki/energy sensing will feel death coming from that attack so him dodging it with Museo tensei is incredibly plausible.
How about teleportation spam for one thing... That's pretty much all you need really. And that's ignoring time stop.
Im gunna need you to remind me some fights where he spams teleportation cause for nothing's ringing from the top of my head him spamming teleportation.
Soooooo because one person didn't use one ability he's not allowed to use it again? That's a bit unfair don't you think....
I'm not saying he's never allowed to use it again. I'm just paraphrasing what past arguments people have used against zeref. And the fact of the matter is zeref never uses time stop after that one moment with natsu and even than it want even in a combat situation. The idea is the move itself isn't something zeref uses for combat application, plus with his new power using SBA he likely wouldn't care to use it otherwise he would had be done so with natsu before he got fairy tail, literally there were many situations he could have done so but doesn't, so no reason to assume he will use it in this fight. And others before me have said the same thing and fans have agreed.
I can't explain to you why everyone doesnt just dodge the blast, all I'm stating is natsu was able to react and dodge the attack when it was randomly shot out. Plus Kens ki/energy sensing will feel death coming from that attack so him dodging it with Museo tensei is incredibly plausible.
How about teleportation spam for one thing... That's pretty much all you need really. And that's ignoring time stop.
Im gunna need you to remind me some fights where he spams teleportation cause for nothing's ringing from the top of my head him spamming teleportation.
Soooooo because one person didn't use one ability he's not allowed to use it again? That's a bit unfair don't you think....
I'm not saying he's never allowed to use it again. I'm just paraphrasing what past arguments people have used against zeref. And the fact of the matter is zeref never uses time stop after that one moment with natsu and even than it want even in a combat situation. The idea is the move itself isn't something zeref uses for combat application, plus with his new power using SBA he likely wouldn't care to use it otherwise he would had be done so with natsu before he got fairy tail, literally there were many situations he could have done so but doesn't, so no reason to assume he will use it in this fight. And others before me have said the same thing and fans have agreed.
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How about the fact that it isn't regularly dodgeable and Zeref was able to make it miss at that point? When did that happen anyway? If I recall it only happened once with that Natsu scene. He can instantly go Muso Tensei mode? The last one is just a question. I wanted to clarify.
So PIS and CIS is not factored? Gotcha.
Look. See there is a central thing here.... Zeref wants to die . He wants to die so he has no reason to go all out on the enemy unless it's Acnologia. He doesn't want to live until the later parts on but even then he still wants to die. So are we basically using a version where Zeref wants to die, or a Zeref that wants to fight and go all out then? Because recallin all his fights in FT, all of them have been against Natsu and all of them... Zeref wants to die.
So let me clarify.
Are we using the Zeref that wants to die or are we using the Zeref that wants to fight and is not restricted? I want to clarify.
If you guys want the Zeref without using any of his other abilities and completely disregarding that and the CIS/PIS filled thing that is FT, alright, fine, I'll stop trying to convince you.
Edit - Also... you should really stop quoting the texts. I hope you don't quote my text here since it's gonna be a huge wall of text.
So PIS and CIS is not factored? Gotcha.
Look. See there is a central thing here.... Zeref wants to die . He wants to die so he has no reason to go all out on the enemy unless it's Acnologia. He doesn't want to live until the later parts on but even then he still wants to die. So are we basically using a version where Zeref wants to die, or a Zeref that wants to fight and go all out then? Because recallin all his fights in FT, all of them have been against Natsu and all of them... Zeref wants to die.
So let me clarify.
Are we using the Zeref that wants to die or are we using the Zeref that wants to fight and is not restricted? I want to clarify.
If you guys want the Zeref without using any of his other abilities and completely disregarding that and the CIS/PIS filled thing that is FT, alright, fine, I'll stop trying to convince you.
Edit - Also... you should really stop quoting the texts. I hope you don't quote my text here since it's gonna be a huge wall of text.
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My vote goes to zeref for death magic and time stop/rewind.
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that was a zeref in a emotional stat, when zeref doesn't care about the life of others he can fully control his death magic. in this fight, zeref isn't in a emotional stat and can use his powers to the fullest. this goes for timestop too. if you say that zeref doesn't start with timestop the same can be said about Muso Tensei because kenshiro never starts with it.Grudgeman1706 said:
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It would be unfair to let one person use all their best moves while restricting another person's powers and making them keep their CIS and PIS after all.
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I agree with CoB. It seems rather biased. I love Kenshiro, but I think Zeref has him beat here. Plus, he's got 7 votes already.
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@COB I'll respect your wishes of not quoting you, it just makes it easier for me to point out every argument to refute it. A lot of staff does this so it isn't completely bad to pull out prices of your quotes into mine.
The OP has both characters acting the way they normally out, aka in character. Standard battle assumption has both of them willing to kill but still have all their character flaws if that answer your question.
@ikazi it's true Ken doesn't start off with Museo tensei, because he has literally no need too due to his other absurd haxes, however Museo Tensei can be activated whenever he wants to with no preparation for it just poof it's on, not even a transformation, he just phase through the attack. Also due to the nature of the technique, he himself does not need to consciously activate it to get him out of danger if he doesn't know he is in danger. For example when another user of Museo tensei, his uncle kasumi Kenshiro first activated his, he was unconscious and it guarded his body from this opponent touching him. And kasumi doesn't even know how to properly use Museo tensei, he's just capable of using. But Kenshiro mastered the technique to its fullest and is very much aware on when to use it, if he senses his opponent being too powerful via his heighten senses, knowing death is close to him either he himself activates it or his body subconsciously does it for him.
Not trying to limit or be biased against zeref, just going by what I know about him and what his abilities are capable of doing.
@teenangel the vote is like 10-14 or 15 kenshiro is winning
The OP has both characters acting the way they normally out, aka in character. Standard battle assumption has both of them willing to kill but still have all their character flaws if that answer your question.
@ikazi it's true Ken doesn't start off with Museo tensei, because he has literally no need too due to his other absurd haxes, however Museo Tensei can be activated whenever he wants to with no preparation for it just poof it's on, not even a transformation, he just phase through the attack. Also due to the nature of the technique, he himself does not need to consciously activate it to get him out of danger if he doesn't know he is in danger. For example when another user of Museo tensei, his uncle kasumi Kenshiro first activated his, he was unconscious and it guarded his body from this opponent touching him. And kasumi doesn't even know how to properly use Museo tensei, he's just capable of using. But Kenshiro mastered the technique to its fullest and is very much aware on when to use it, if he senses his opponent being too powerful via his heighten senses, knowing death is close to him either he himself activates it or his body subconsciously does it for him.
Not trying to limit or be biased against zeref, just going by what I know about him and what his abilities are capable of doing.
@teenangel the vote is like 10-14 or 15 kenshiro is winning
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15 13 is the vote with an advantage on Zeref. I counted.
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Thank you though on the quoting thing. Honestly to me it becomes a bigger pain to have to deal with wall of texts. But I understand why you would quote.
We also need to disregard CIS and PIS in Standard Battle Assumptions and make it fair.
Even with that in mind however he still has teleportation. Not to mention the capability to summon demons to fight for him. He could sense magic power after all and with Muso Tensei I'm more than sure that everyone can agree that Zeref would at least react to it in a very wary manner. Aka staying away from it.
But it's a bit unfair to completely disregard every ability that Zeref had used. Just because a character doesn't use it much doesn't mean they're not willing to use it. Especially in a series called Fairy Tail where everyone has a habit of forgetting incredibly useful abilities. I'm more than sure that FT isn't the only verse that had that happen to them.
We also need to disregard CIS and PIS in Standard Battle Assumptions and make it fair.
Even with that in mind however he still has teleportation. Not to mention the capability to summon demons to fight for him. He could sense magic power after all and with Muso Tensei I'm more than sure that everyone can agree that Zeref would at least react to it in a very wary manner. Aka staying away from it.
But it's a bit unfair to completely disregard every ability that Zeref had used. Just because a character doesn't use it much doesn't mean they're not willing to use it. Especially in a series called Fairy Tail where everyone has a habit of forgetting incredibly useful abilities. I'm more than sure that FT isn't the only verse that had that happen to them.
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We also need to disregard CIS and PIS in Standard Battle Assumptions and make it fair.
Pis I'm not sure we ever use in matches before, if your asking about the examples I gave of times where zeref could or should have used time stop yuan this isn't a CIS or PIS, that's just how zeref fights. Like since you've obviously read fairy tail than you would know any and every serious fight between characters they go practically all out with their best moves in order to win a fight or what's most useful to a fight. The fact that Zeref during his whole fight with natsu and others has never shown him even use his time stop spell in any other situation but that one moment with natsu indicates nmore to what I and others in the past stated that time stop for zeref isn't a move he uses in combat. To pout into perspective, AiZens using hogyoku was shown to be capable of reality warping with whatever he stated, however in combat it's never shown to do that, and. @lordaizensama told me it would be wrong to assume he would or could otherwise. That being said him not using time stop inncombat isn't credited to CIS or even PIS, it's on the account that it's simply not a spell meant for combat purposes at least the way he uses, to assume otherwise would be bad.
Teleportation, COB could you bring up some scans of him using this in combat and spamming it like you said, I can't recall and would very much appreciate some further info on this.
Summoning his demons, can he do that in combat, cus I never once seen him bring out any of the demons from Tartarus, in fact he created them for the sole reason to kill him not help him in battle so unless I'm forgetting something which you could tell me if I am i don't think he do this, this if I forgot he could summon demons in a chapter I can't recall, if you can't find it, we can't use it.
But for theory sakes let's say he could summon some demons to help him fight, luck would have it Museo tensei can summon the souls of fallen rivals to help support Ken, that's at least 6-7 fallen warriors roughly kenshiros level. So yah.
I'll state it again, not underminding zerefs abilities or purposely restricting them. I'm just using the standard character assumption ofbhe figjts with and what w normally does when he fights. And again what had been grown is he can't time stop whenever he wants to in combat or even considers the ability in question. That habit of forgetting abilities could very well be treated as a weakness of fairy tail or u could consider it the plots fault they don't use it, but from my reading of fairy tail, no character I've seen fight doesn't use all their best moves throughout a fight. So you'll have to debunk me with some examples of characters that aren't zeref forgetting to use a very useful ability they have.
Pis I'm not sure we ever use in matches before, if your asking about the examples I gave of times where zeref could or should have used time stop yuan this isn't a CIS or PIS, that's just how zeref fights. Like since you've obviously read fairy tail than you would know any and every serious fight between characters they go practically all out with their best moves in order to win a fight or what's most useful to a fight. The fact that Zeref during his whole fight with natsu and others has never shown him even use his time stop spell in any other situation but that one moment with natsu indicates nmore to what I and others in the past stated that time stop for zeref isn't a move he uses in combat. To pout into perspective, AiZens using hogyoku was shown to be capable of reality warping with whatever he stated, however in combat it's never shown to do that, and. @lordaizensama told me it would be wrong to assume he would or could otherwise. That being said him not using time stop inncombat isn't credited to CIS or even PIS, it's on the account that it's simply not a spell meant for combat purposes at least the way he uses, to assume otherwise would be bad.
Teleportation, COB could you bring up some scans of him using this in combat and spamming it like you said, I can't recall and would very much appreciate some further info on this.
Summoning his demons, can he do that in combat, cus I never once seen him bring out any of the demons from Tartarus, in fact he created them for the sole reason to kill him not help him in battle so unless I'm forgetting something which you could tell me if I am i don't think he do this, this if I forgot he could summon demons in a chapter I can't recall, if you can't find it, we can't use it.
But for theory sakes let's say he could summon some demons to help him fight, luck would have it Museo tensei can summon the souls of fallen rivals to help support Ken, that's at least 6-7 fallen warriors roughly kenshiros level. So yah.
I'll state it again, not underminding zerefs abilities or purposely restricting them. I'm just using the standard character assumption ofbhe figjts with and what w normally does when he fights. And again what had been grown is he can't time stop whenever he wants to in combat or even considers the ability in question. That habit of forgetting abilities could very well be treated as a weakness of fairy tail or u could consider it the plots fault they don't use it, but from my reading of fairy tail, no character I've seen fight doesn't use all their best moves throughout a fight. So you'll have to debunk me with some examples of characters that aren't zeref forgetting to use a very useful ability they have.
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