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Also I counted 12/13-12-11 Ken winning @COB
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Kenshiro Vs Zeref
- Thread starter LordAizenSama
- Start date
- Status
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I must agree with Grudgeman's reasoning and say that Kenshiro wins for those reasons stated above.
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We seem to be running in circles on the argument whether something is PIS/CIS or whether it's just characterization. It's not something we can refute. In any case I don't think we're going to convince the other that either is wrong. But in a situation where the character has those abilities listed on their profiles... What's the point of even putting them there when neither are being used?
I'll find some scans but feeling lazy. Stilt, this is pretty unfair and biased tbh. Isn't this a site that profiles all abilities of a person? Why even bother listing them in that case? Also
The reasoning on why death magic doesn't affect Kenshiro is because it's tangible right? To counter that fire is an actual physical element while death magic is something else entirely. It has never been touched or physically interacted with something unlike Natsu's fire magic. It simply kills. If it's tangible than people would be able to block it with some sort of barrier or shield and Zeref wouldn't be troubled by such an issue. In truth it kills anything it reaches.
So is that really tangible?
But anyway I'll recount the votes again. I may have made a mistake in that case.
Final Tally
Zeref
Bluedash, Kuuichigo, Roygundam, BoomeYang, Zero7772, Core, Dragonmasterxyz, Davidsteel1, TeenAnel101, Ikazi
9
Tie
AllanSaiyan, Fabtastic Glasses
2
Kenshiro
Grudgeman1706, TheLivingTribunal, Monarch, OIYIG, Kamiyasha, Hellspawn Barbarian, Cropfist, Akuakuakuma, ZackMoon1234, Ytm, Byakuya, Bepo
12
Aha! You were wrong!! It was 9-2-12!! Wait.... But yeah new tally is here.
Of course I do want people to ask themselves if death magic really is tangible...
I'll find some scans but feeling lazy. Stilt, this is pretty unfair and biased tbh. Isn't this a site that profiles all abilities of a person? Why even bother listing them in that case? Also
The reasoning on why death magic doesn't affect Kenshiro is because it's tangible right? To counter that fire is an actual physical element while death magic is something else entirely. It has never been touched or physically interacted with something unlike Natsu's fire magic. It simply kills. If it's tangible than people would be able to block it with some sort of barrier or shield and Zeref wouldn't be troubled by such an issue. In truth it kills anything it reaches.
So is that really tangible?
But anyway I'll recount the votes again. I may have made a mistake in that case.
Final Tally
Zeref
Bluedash, Kuuichigo, Roygundam, BoomeYang, Zero7772, Core, Dragonmasterxyz, Davidsteel1, TeenAnel101, Ikazi
9
Tie
AllanSaiyan, Fabtastic Glasses
2
Kenshiro
Grudgeman1706, TheLivingTribunal, Monarch, OIYIG, Kamiyasha, Hellspawn Barbarian, Cropfist, Akuakuakuma, ZackMoon1234, Ytm, Byakuya, Bepo
12
Aha! You were wrong!! It was 9-2-12!! Wait.... But yeah new tally is here.
Of course I do want people to ask themselves if death magic really is tangible...
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To clarify, only Natsu's flames are tangible. Death magic or the other types of haxx magic in Fairy Tail like Meredy's ability or Time magic... not so much.
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Zeref rather easily. I see zero way for Musou Tensei to get past time hax, and death hax when vulnerable, especially considering how Zeref could just play keep away.
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@COB we are a statistics/power categorization wiki, we debate characters on one end. The other is to accurately list as many abilities they have ever show cased no matter how small or useless it is. Like for example we list Goku having telekinesis even though he never ever uses it in battle. Lots of characters have abilities added to them in order too as accurately measure a character as much as we can with the information given at hand. When writing abilities it's highly recommended you list off the limits TO said powers as best as you can. For example Ken has ice manipulation, but that ability comes from a technique of a martial art he mastered and can only use it for that move only and nothing else. It's pretty useless in combat but I list it anyway cause that's what you do with characters.
Death magic or basically zerefs powers had been able to grapple and hold down natsu, push back natsu's flame attacks or be dispersed by natsu flame attacks. So it's very much tangible in some ways.
However the actual reason death magic had been disregarded is due to the nature of kens Museo tensei which embodies nothingness itself. And in HNK nothingness is the primordial element of everything, it's where all life comes from. A realm of nothingness(aka the sonryi tenra) has been shown to ignore the laws of death itself and in order for kasumi and Liu to actually die, they needed to cross a barrier of death where they could die. That's why death magic is seen as unable to affect kens intangiblity.
Death magic or basically zerefs powers had been able to grapple and hold down natsu, push back natsu's flame attacks or be dispersed by natsu flame attacks. So it's very much tangible in some ways.
However the actual reason death magic had been disregarded is due to the nature of kens Museo tensei which embodies nothingness itself. And in HNK nothingness is the primordial element of everything, it's where all life comes from. A realm of nothingness(aka the sonryi tenra) has been shown to ignore the laws of death itself and in order for kasumi and Liu to actually die, they needed to cross a barrier of death where they could die. That's why death magic is seen as unable to affect kens intangiblity.
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Neither, but why does death magic being tangible or intangible change its ability to affect Kenshiro when he doesn't exist?
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Really -___- Howard, zero ways, none of the 10s of paragraphs I wrote gives you even ONE reason it could bypass it.The real cal howard said:
The main time hax zeref is using is his time rewind, however I sincerely doubt zeref can rewind time again if he doesn't exist anymore to do so.
Death hax has ways to get around as I explained above.
Does zeref even pay keep away, in fact in his new form, he doesn't show any songs of the type to run or keep a distance in a fight since he pretty much thinks he's invincible, heck even before he never played keep away at all. If i missed a chapter of him keeping away in fight, pls by all means link it and prove me wrong
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- Thread starter
- #90
The problem is will kenshiro use muso tensei before zeref time stops or uses his death magic? Considering they are in character Zeref would use his death magic almost immediately id imagine.
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- Thread starter
- #91
Also @COB could you please update me on the votes? It's rather hard to follow now
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Heya Cal and Jiangshi thanks for voting. Because Kenshiro does exist. From what I'm reading it seems more like he enters an astral plane and becomes untouchable. Of course whether I'm right or wrong on that, Zeref still insta kills....
And okay can you show me those scans because I have not seen them ever.... Nor do I recall them.
Our argument is being refuted by claims of Zeref would be stupid enough to stay close and not use any of his abilities when it's an actual fight. We might as well remove time stop and teleportation if they're not gonna be used tbh.... Despite being used.... And despite being the logical thing to do would be to stay away... Feels bias man.
From the looks of it Kenshiro's prediction only affects martial artists. At least from what I read up.
11-13 now.
And okay can you show me those scans because I have not seen them ever.... Nor do I recall them.
Our argument is being refuted by claims of Zeref would be stupid enough to stay close and not use any of his abilities when it's an actual fight. We might as well remove time stop and teleportation if they're not gonna be used tbh.... Despite being used.... And despite being the logical thing to do would be to stay away... Feels bias man.
From the looks of it Kenshiro's prediction only affects martial artists. At least from what I read up.
11-13 now.
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Change my vote from inconclusive to kenshiro for grudge reasoning.
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Wait, does MT just make Kenshiro intangible, or does it give him some sort of non-existent physiology?
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It gives him both intangiblity to physical and energy attacks, and he embodies nothingness itself. And the ability to erase ones existence. Theirs other abilities to it but you won't care for them.Monarch Laciel said:
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Zeref main power is death magic and will always start with and he also can use time stop/rewind. and he can use law a magic that destroys whoever the user sees as a enemy. (which takes 3 seconds countdown to activate.) I don't see kenshiro surviving death magic+ timestop or law.
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Well, i don't see all that spell affecting nothingness either (except maybe timestop)
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Since I just realize we are using Kenshiro at 100%, in character he will actually use Museo tensei on the spot.LordAizenSama said:
See when Kenshiro does go 100% in character, whoever he's facing is going to have to die. What I mean is you basically push Kenshiro to his limits and now he will do anything to win the fight. And the fights he does go 100% he uses Museo tensei right on the spot to end the fight.
So will Kenshiro have Museo tensei activated, yah since he's going all out on zeref now.
Also zeref using the deaths curse in this form is something I'm beginning to question, before hand when he still had faith in humanity he couldn't control it so it went off all the time. After that I don't recall him using that ability the second a fight starts in character.
AGAIN if you disagree or I am just straight up wrong pls pls just do me the favor and tell me and give me the evidnce, whether it's a scan or even a manga chapter where zeref is using deaths curse after he gave up on humanity in the beginning of a fight.
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yes those spells will have affect if zeref uses time stop before kenshiro can even use muso tensei.
also how long can kenshiro be intangiblity.
also how long can kenshiro be intangiblity.
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Heya Cal and Jiangshi thanks for voting. Because Kenshiro does exist. From what I'm reading it seems more like he enters an astral plane and becomes untouchable. Of course whether I'm right or wrong on that, Zeref still insta kills....
It's not a Astral plane, he's not entering a new dimension, his body just literally becomes incorporeal becoming one with nothingness. Allowing him to be immune to physical and energy attacks and the ability to erase people from existence. And many more abilities listed already on his profile. How could he still Insta kill when you haven't provided a reason on how his death magic could go through him when I already provided a reason why it doesn't. Pls try to counter the already lads out claim I made in the comments above.
And okay can you show me those scans because I have not seen them ever.... Nor do I recall them.
What scans are you referring too, I'm not joking when I say I have no idea what your asking for.
Our argument is being refuted by claims of Zeref would be stupid enough to stay close and not use any of his abilities when it's an actual fight.
No your argument is bein refuted that zeref will have no idea what's comin or him when Ken goes Museo tensei and charges at him without the actual fear he will die. Let me desicrbe you how characters with advance ki/ energy sensing see and say when they look at kenshiros Museo tensei. They see a bein who's aura flows everywhere and the fallen spirits of rivals and loved ones with it. It doesn't look menacing enough to give zeref a chance to figure out "oh shit I will die if I touch it."
We might as well remove time stop and teleportation if they're not gonna be used tbh.... Despite being used.... And despite being the logical thing to do would be to stay away... Feels bias man.
Why are you trying to paint me as the bad guy. Just because a ability is useless in combat doesn't mean we should Stright up delete it. Did you not read what I said before on this subject man. We are a categorical Character listing wiki, our purpose is too list as many accurate abilities a character possesses to categorizes them the best way we can. Regardless if it's useless for debating or not combat applicable. We still list them for accuracy, theirs literally no reason or need to delete them.
From the looks of it Kenshiro's prediction only affects martial artists. At least from what I read up.
If by martial artist you mean any Opponent in combat than yah.
Look Ken had two types of combat precognition at his disposal.
The first type is what master hokuto shinken user have, and that's when they face an opponent, before an attack is thrown, they can see the outcome of the attack and contemplate whether or not they should face an attack or not, it's like a combat simulatior for them. They can see if the attack will kill them or not if they take it on.
The second precog he has is what he obtained from hokuto ryu Ken.
Basically the users auras allow them to predict were an attack will be coming from when it enters their auras radius. It's very useful for if an attack gets close enough to their aura they can dodge it. And kens aura radius is pretty large.
I'd like to remind everyone and COV especially that we are debating for the sake of debating. I mean no harm or bad intentions in my debates. I take it very seriously but I don't put aggressive or bad feeling into it so if I anger or offend you in anyway I mean no harm and I hope this debate does not affect how we as users see each other in any negative light.
It's not a Astral plane, he's not entering a new dimension, his body just literally becomes incorporeal becoming one with nothingness. Allowing him to be immune to physical and energy attacks and the ability to erase people from existence. And many more abilities listed already on his profile. How could he still Insta kill when you haven't provided a reason on how his death magic could go through him when I already provided a reason why it doesn't. Pls try to counter the already lads out claim I made in the comments above.
And okay can you show me those scans because I have not seen them ever.... Nor do I recall them.
What scans are you referring too, I'm not joking when I say I have no idea what your asking for.
Our argument is being refuted by claims of Zeref would be stupid enough to stay close and not use any of his abilities when it's an actual fight.
No your argument is bein refuted that zeref will have no idea what's comin or him when Ken goes Museo tensei and charges at him without the actual fear he will die. Let me desicrbe you how characters with advance ki/ energy sensing see and say when they look at kenshiros Museo tensei. They see a bein who's aura flows everywhere and the fallen spirits of rivals and loved ones with it. It doesn't look menacing enough to give zeref a chance to figure out "oh shit I will die if I touch it."
We might as well remove time stop and teleportation if they're not gonna be used tbh.... Despite being used.... And despite being the logical thing to do would be to stay away... Feels bias man.
Why are you trying to paint me as the bad guy. Just because a ability is useless in combat doesn't mean we should Stright up delete it. Did you not read what I said before on this subject man. We are a categorical Character listing wiki, our purpose is too list as many accurate abilities a character possesses to categorizes them the best way we can. Regardless if it's useless for debating or not combat applicable. We still list them for accuracy, theirs literally no reason or need to delete them.
From the looks of it Kenshiro's prediction only affects martial artists. At least from what I read up.
If by martial artist you mean any Opponent in combat than yah.
Look Ken had two types of combat precognition at his disposal.
The first type is what master hokuto shinken user have, and that's when they face an opponent, before an attack is thrown, they can see the outcome of the attack and contemplate whether or not they should face an attack or not, it's like a combat simulatior for them. They can see if the attack will kill them or not if they take it on.
The second precog he has is what he obtained from hokuto ryu Ken.
Basically the users auras allow them to predict were an attack will be coming from when it enters their auras radius. It's very useful for if an attack gets close enough to their aura they can dodge it. And kens aura radius is pretty large.
I'd like to remind everyone and COV especially that we are debating for the sake of debating. I mean no harm or bad intentions in my debates. I take it very seriously but I don't put aggressive or bad feeling into it so if I anger or offend you in anyway I mean no harm and I hope this debate does not affect how we as users see each other in any negative light.
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Muso Tensei erase existance right ? Then im changing my vote for Kenshiro since i don't remember Zeref coming back from existance erasure
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I agree with Fabtastic Glasses My vote goes to Kenshiro.
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I think Kenshiro got this via reasons above.
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Counted the votes 14 : ZEREF : (Thebluedash, KuuIchigo, RoyGundam, Promestein, Omega998, CoreOfimBalance(COB), BoomeYang, ZERO7772, Dragonmasterxyz, Davidsteel1, TeenAngel101, IKazi, The real cal howard, Jiangshi1)
17 : KENSHIRO : (Grudgeman1706, The Living Tribunal1, Monarch Laciel, OIYIG, KamiYasha, Hellspawn Barbarian, Cropfist, AkuAkuAkuma, ZackMoon1234, Ytmcztmc, Byakuya "Senbonzakura" Kuchiki, Bepo4151, Fllflourine, AllanSaiyan, Fabtastic Glasses, Seventy96, Xanxussama1010)
Inconclusive
17 : KENSHIRO : (Grudgeman1706, The Living Tribunal1, Monarch Laciel, OIYIG, KamiYasha, Hellspawn Barbarian, Cropfist, AkuAkuAkuma, ZackMoon1234, Ytmcztmc, Byakuya "Senbonzakura" Kuchiki, Bepo4151, Fllflourine, AllanSaiyan, Fabtastic Glasses, Seventy96, Xanxussama1010)
Inconclusive
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It's been showcased in the original manga and prequel and a canon definition of Museo tensei States it erases people from existence.Jiangshi1 said:
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Switching my vote back to mah boi Ken for the following:
Soryu Tenra: transports him and his opponent to a world of nothingness where all barriers and defenses are removed, as well as any special abilities, leaving only a fight to the death with nothing but one's bare hands. Once the opponent is killed in this Pocket Reality, they dissappear from exsistence without a trace.
I think that should provide a pretty hefty win. As this provides both LIMITED POCKET REALITY MANIPULATION and POWER NULLIFICATION.
Soryu Tenra: transports him and his opponent to a world of nothingness where all barriers and defenses are removed, as well as any special abilities, leaving only a fight to the death with nothing but one's bare hands. Once the opponent is killed in this Pocket Reality, they dissappear from exsistence without a trace.
I think that should provide a pretty hefty win. As this provides both LIMITED POCKET REALITY MANIPULATION and POWER NULLIFICATION.
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@teenangel101 the idea of Kenshiro knowing Soryu Tenra is deabte of its own.
On one hand the first one to use it was kasumi Kenshiro who stated only the successor of hokuto shinken knows this move can use it.
As Kenshiro is the successor it's indicated he knows how to use this move.
On the other hand Kenshiro never knew to use it against other fighters.
But than maybe he never used this move because it's basically a double sword since it can kill the user as well and he has an even better ultimate technique at his disposal.
But in the their hand the technique technically didn't exist when the first manga was made so the idea of him using it now was plausible.
And after getting his seals lifted and touching the statue he learned the history of hokuto and the past lives of all the previous successors like kasumi did.
You could argue this move is very much like zerefs time stop in the sense it's technically not combat applicable even though it was used in combat but because Ken has never been seen using it which is why he has "likely" on the abilites that come with this move.
On one hand the first one to use it was kasumi Kenshiro who stated only the successor of hokuto shinken knows this move can use it.
As Kenshiro is the successor it's indicated he knows how to use this move.
On the other hand Kenshiro never knew to use it against other fighters.
But than maybe he never used this move because it's basically a double sword since it can kill the user as well and he has an even better ultimate technique at his disposal.
But in the their hand the technique technically didn't exist when the first manga was made so the idea of him using it now was plausible.
And after getting his seals lifted and touching the statue he learned the history of hokuto and the past lives of all the previous successors like kasumi did.
You could argue this move is very much like zerefs time stop in the sense it's technically not combat applicable even though it was used in combat but because Ken has never been seen using it which is why he has "likely" on the abilites that come with this move.
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So were is the thread at now?
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- Thread starter
- #111
I dont know but this is one of the most votes ive seen on a thread
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Zeref loses due to sheer amount of nerfing. Close the thread and update the wiki pages. What's said is said.
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- Thread starter
- #115
Nerfing? What do you mean, downplaying?
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I'm glad Aizen has come to the same conclusions as me when it comes to votes XD
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@zaxkmoon this vote look wrong example allan vote for inclusive.
Ken is not a type who will use musou tensei at biggening of fight while zeref can't control his death wave it might happen went the fight just start.
You can't said ken can dodge zeref death wave cos other people can dodge it or will dodge it since ken does not know about zeref ability Even natsu can't dodge it but save by scaf while ultia already know about zeref death wave so she use tine manipulation.
Zeref pretty much high enchantment so he can turn ken to rat or what ever
Zeref also can use telekinesis And 90+% of his demon ability since he the one who create it except MM i guess
And time space manipulation how can ken counter this?
Ken is not a type who will use musou tensei at biggening of fight while zeref can't control his death wave it might happen went the fight just start.
You can't said ken can dodge zeref death wave cos other people can dodge it or will dodge it since ken does not know about zeref ability Even natsu can't dodge it but save by scaf while ultia already know about zeref death wave so she use tine manipulation.
Zeref pretty much high enchantment so he can turn ken to rat or what ever
Zeref also can use telekinesis And 90+% of his demon ability since he the one who create it except MM i guess
And time space manipulation how can ken counter this?
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This thread seems to have gotten out of hand real quick
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It's more confusing than out of hand tbh.
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