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Kefla and Vegeta Upgrade
- Thread starter LordTracer
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- #43
Whis: "Two Gods of Destruction must never fight each other."
Vados: "Such a fight would mean annihilation for both Universes 6 and 7."
> That's not vague... at all. Nor is it speculation. Vados is very clearly saying Beerus and Champa clashing would wipe out both universes.
Vados: "Such a fight would mean annihilation for both Universes 6 and 7."
> That's not vague... at all. Nor is it speculation. Vados is very clearly saying Beerus and Champa clashing would wipe out both universes.
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This is what happens when you treat range between dimensions as infinity.
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I honestly dont even see why a matter destruction feat across two universes is even 2-C. The whole "breaching the axis" argument seems unquantifiable.
From what i am aware of, destroying two space times on a 5D axis is still only considered four dimensional since you are only affecting that axis as opposed to the fifth dimensional structure itself. And if we lowered the dimensions, this would be the equivilent of destroying multiple three dimensional objects on a 4D axis (pretty much affecting an object in different time periods) which would be a higher level of three dimensional than simply destroying the former object on its own (which im pretty sure would be unquantifiably above the level of normally destroying said object and treat as a range feat).
The thing is, beerus and champa were explicitely doing this to the matter and not the space times meaning they are affecting three dimensional matter on a 5D axis. This is borderline unquantifiable and is simply an area of effect range feat. If the example i mentioned is what we consider valid, we simply treat breaching a higher axis as being an unquantifiably higher level of whatever destroying that object is but with better range. Im pretty sure its the same reason we dont treat erasing someone on a 2-A or low 2-C scale to be either or those tiers (except possibly high universal for the former) and only a ranged feat at best.
Unless im misunderstanding or missing anything. Beerus and champa while breaching that axis, would only be pretty much unquantifiable since it is explicit that they were only affecting finite three dimensional matter and not the space times themselves.
From what i am aware of, destroying two space times on a 5D axis is still only considered four dimensional since you are only affecting that axis as opposed to the fifth dimensional structure itself. And if we lowered the dimensions, this would be the equivilent of destroying multiple three dimensional objects on a 4D axis (pretty much affecting an object in different time periods) which would be a higher level of three dimensional than simply destroying the former object on its own (which im pretty sure would be unquantifiably above the level of normally destroying said object and treat as a range feat).
The thing is, beerus and champa were explicitely doing this to the matter and not the space times meaning they are affecting three dimensional matter on a 5D axis. This is borderline unquantifiable and is simply an area of effect range feat. If the example i mentioned is what we consider valid, we simply treat breaching a higher axis as being an unquantifiably higher level of whatever destroying that object is but with better range. Im pretty sure its the same reason we dont treat erasing someone on a 2-A or low 2-C scale to be either or those tiers (except possibly high universal for the former) and only a ranged feat at best.
Unless im misunderstanding or missing anything. Beerus and champa while breaching that axis, would only be pretty much unquantifiable since it is explicit that they were only affecting finite three dimensional matter and not the space times themselves.
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Lack of proof i suppose along with space time never being affected in the slightest. From what im aware, the wiki has always excepted is at a matter destroying feat. The only real reason they were upgraded is because they breached the axis between universes. Which im pretty sure is unquantifiable.
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"Lack of proof i suppose"
Well, Lack of Proof doesn't mean it's explicitly told to be something. Let me play the Devil's Advocate: If the Universe's are in their own separate Space-Time as this is currently how it's treated, how will you, affecting the matter alone, be able to even destroy the second Universe which has its own separate Space-Time?
"space time never being affected in the slightest."
Well I mean, they didn't even really start fighting as Whis and Vados stopped them, so I think this point isn't exactly a good one.
Well, Lack of Proof doesn't mean it's explicitly told to be something. Let me play the Devil's Advocate: If the Universe's are in their own separate Space-Time as this is currently how it's treated, how will you, affecting the matter alone, be able to even destroy the second Universe which has its own separate Space-Time?
"space time never being affected in the slightest."
Well I mean, they didn't even really start fighting as Whis and Vados stopped them, so I think this point isn't exactly a good one.
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So now destroying more than one universe in any scale requires the mention of time and space?
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@Giygas3 They wouldnt be destroying two seperate space times. They would just be destroying the three dimensional matter within the universes which is still universal destruction (and is normally how dragon ball treats universal destruction on top of that). Just not universal space time destruction.
@Zamasu Chan Or literally any indication that it would be space time related (which it is in majority of cases). Beerus and champa arent the only ones who follow this rule.
Either way, im not debating on whether they are truly affecting space times. My point is that if they are affecting matter which is what our wiki has always accepted, then it should not be 2-C.
@Zamasu Chan Or literally any indication that it would be space time related (which it is in majority of cases). Beerus and champa arent the only ones who follow this rule.
Either way, im not debating on whether they are truly affecting space times. My point is that if they are affecting matter which is what our wiki has always accepted, then it should not be 2-C.
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"@Giygas3 They wouldnt be destroying two seperate space times. They would just be destroying the three dimensional matter within the universes which is still universal destruction. Just not universal space time destruction."
I never said they were destroying two separate space-times. My point is how will you be able to destroy a Universe in entirely separate Space-Time if you're just affecting matter in an entirely different Universe.
"My point is that if they are affecting matter which is what our wiki has always accepted, then it should not be 2-C. "
Okay, then yes, I would agree it's not 2-C.
I never said they were destroying two separate space-times. My point is how will you be able to destroy a Universe in entirely separate Space-Time if you're just affecting matter in an entirely different Universe.
"My point is that if they are affecting matter which is what our wiki has always accepted, then it should not be 2-C. "
Okay, then yes, I would agree it's not 2-C.
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- Thread starter
- #55
They would have to be affecting space-time, no? Because if they were only affecting matter, how exactly would they cross into another space-time continuum and destroy the matter there as well?
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With three dimensional power which has range extending on a much higher axis.
Im pretty sure its the same reason destroying two dimensional space in the past and future wouldnt be an ap feat either as opposed to a range and maybe hax related feat.
Im pretty sure its the same reason destroying two dimensional space in the past and future wouldnt be an ap feat either as opposed to a range and maybe hax related feat.
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"With three dimensional power which has range extending on a much higher axis."
That's not how that works. If I'm just destroying matter with each of my punches, then I will never be able to destroy another Universe in its entirely separate Space-Time. This range will only work when each Universe is entirely connected.
That's not how that works. If I'm just destroying matter with each of my punches, then I will never be able to destroy another Universe in its entirely separate Space-Time. This range will only work when each Universe is entirely connected.
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Mm, that would require more assumptions than just saying they'd completely wipe out both universes, which is what Vados said. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the explanation of them just destroying both universes be the most likely via Occam's razor?Read this post said:
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@Giygas3 You wont be able to destroy the separate universe because your punches aoe only work on a three dimensional axis. If the area of effect of your attacks suddenly gained the range to travel across a four dimensional axis, you would be able to destroy three dimensional matter across different points in time with your punches. On a fifth dimensional axis, they would then be able to affect matter in other universes since that is the axis space times are separated on.
The space times are structures separated by a higher dimensional axis which can only be breached by moving across said axis. Of course regular three dimensional power wouldnt be able to breach is. But given the range, it could. Fiction tends to do this all the time and have three dimensional stuff affect a higher dimensional axis range wise. It doesnt make it a tier 2 ap or reality warping feat at all.
Same as my two dimensional analogy earlier. A two dimensional being with aoe that affect a higher dimensional axis could use their punches to affect two dimensional structures in the past, present and future. They still wouldnt be able to effect objects on higher dimensions. It would just be a new axis with a higher level of two dimensional power if anything.
@LordTracer If occams razor can prove space time destruction then possibly. Though you would need to have some reasoning as to why them destroying space times is less speculation and more simple than destroying the three dimensional matter on a higher dimensional axis which is harder when you have zero evidence of affecting space time to begin with and universal destruction normally being matter destruction in db from what im aware of.
The space times are structures separated by a higher dimensional axis which can only be breached by moving across said axis. Of course regular three dimensional power wouldnt be able to breach is. But given the range, it could. Fiction tends to do this all the time and have three dimensional stuff affect a higher dimensional axis range wise. It doesnt make it a tier 2 ap or reality warping feat at all.
Same as my two dimensional analogy earlier. A two dimensional being with aoe that affect a higher dimensional axis could use their punches to affect two dimensional structures in the past, present and future. They still wouldnt be able to effect objects on higher dimensions. It would just be a new axis with a higher level of two dimensional power if anything.
@LordTracer If occams razor can prove space time destruction then possibly. Though you would need to have some reasoning as to why them destroying space times is less speculation and more simple than destroying the three dimensional matter on a higher dimensional axis which is harder when you have zero evidence of affecting space time to begin with and universal destruction normally being matter destruction in db from what im aware of.
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Because Universes 6 and 7 are separate space-time continuums, and all Vados said was that they were going to destroy both of them. It is far more sensible to think the universes were simply going to be destroyed as opposed to them destroying all the matter inside both universes. If Vados meant the matter inside both universes, don't you think she'd have specified that they'd destroy everything inside the universes, like the narrator said during the Battle of Gods clash? Saying they would destroy both universes is far less speculative than saying their energy would destroy all the matter inside Universe 7 and then pass into the separate space-time of Universe 6 and destroy all of the matter inside that.
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You could also say instead that universes six and seven are separated by space time continuums. Which would ultimately twist occams razor in the opposite direction and would make destroying the universes different from destroying the space times themselves.
Sometimes it is dependent on whether "the universe" is treat as being the contents of the space time or the full structure of the universe which is the space time.
Perhaps it is best for sera or another knowledgeable staff member to give their opinion on whether space time or matter makes more sense (or if my analogy on axises is correct). Im personally neutral on that part.
Sometimes it is dependent on whether "the universe" is treat as being the contents of the space time or the full structure of the universe which is the space time.
Perhaps it is best for sera or another knowledgeable staff member to give their opinion on whether space time or matter makes more sense (or if my analogy on axises is correct). Im personally neutral on that part.
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- #62
Where would you get the idea that Universes 6 and 7 aren't actually space-time continuums and are only separated by one from?
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By defining the universes as being the contents of the space times rather the space times themselves. If you treat the universe as being the physical universe as oppose to the latter then yes, the analogy or universes separated by space times would be correct.
The official true definition of a universe defines a universe as being space time, though this may not always be the case in fiction which is why universe creation and destruction can often be treat as destroying the physical universe rather than the space time.
Imma unfollow so someone more knowledgeable can take care of this.
The official true definition of a universe defines a universe as being space time, though this may not always be the case in fiction which is why universe creation and destruction can often be treat as destroying the physical universe rather than the space time.
Imma unfollow so someone more knowledgeable can take care of this.
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I think this might help, I feel like it might be important to note.
Whis: There are a total of twelve universes. The universe we're all standing in the moment is known the 7th universe.
Vegeta: The universe is everything, how can there be more?
Whis: It's all a matter of dimensions Vegeta.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYIt54wyB20
@LordTracer
Was it stated only the matter in the universe for BoG? I remember it was stated that the universe itself was going to be destroyed and it was going to be void of nothinginess. Kinda sounds like they were going to make another world of void lol
Whis: There are a total of twelve universes. The universe we're all standing in the moment is known the 7th universe.
Vegeta: The universe is everything, how can there be more?
Whis: It's all a matter of dimensions Vegeta.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYIt54wyB20
@LordTracer
Was it stated only the matter in the universe for BoG? I remember it was stated that the universe itself was going to be destroyed and it was going to be void of nothinginess. Kinda sounds like they were going to make another world of void lol
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The narrator stated that everything inside of the universe would be destroyed and there would be nothing left in the universe, though it was also stated that they'd wipe out the universe itself, so ┬»\_(Òâä)_/┬»
I think the fact that it was specified they'd only wipe out everything is why those that scale from the BoG feat are only 3-A instead of Low 2-C.
I think the fact that it was specified they'd only wipe out everything is why those that scale from the BoG feat are only 3-A instead of Low 2-C.
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hmm.. Okay. I guess I'll have to rewatch the episode later.
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This right here has a lot of scans from the episodes. I somewhat question how they'd only be affecting things inside the universe when the Kaioshin realm was endangered as well, but that can be talked about later.
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Hm, perhaps the idea of Low 2-C BoG should be revisited. I would do it, but I'd rather focus on this Kefla and Vegeta stuff before trying to change anything else.
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The spirit bomb should be low 2-C too but that's for the future.
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- #71
Yes, this is true, especially since Whis stated the Spirit Bomb was fueling Goku while he was in Omen for the first time and some GoDs (Belmod and Champa) were getting worried over it.
That could also potentially be used to support 2-C SSJ2 Kefla, but I'm not sure if the SSJ2 multiplier is accepted here.
That could also potentially be used to support 2-C SSJ2 Kefla, but I'm not sure if the SSJ2 multiplier is accepted here.
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100% this. I don't know why people always confuse Whis's educated guess about a full powered Jiren as referring to a suppressed Jiren. His justification needs to be altered to make it more clear.Sera EX said:
Anyway, this thread should just be closed. Already discussed and derailed.
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It was called SSJ 2, wasn't called anything like Berserk SSJ2 in series iirc. People only called it that cause the hair was green from what I remember. So a regular SSJ2 multiplyier should be good.
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Uh, I countered those points already, and the thread is still on topic. Suppressed Jiren is still close enough to GoD tier that Kefla one-shotting UIO2 Goku would lead to her at least getting a likely 2-C, and there hasn't really been anyone responding to Vegeta stomping the GoD tier Toppo. There's no reason to close the thread yet.
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There hasn't been any response to this by staff/knowledgeable members either.LordTracer said:
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No. The only people stronger than Beerus in the ToP are probably UI Goku and Full Power Jiren. They are the high tier GoD level characters. SSJ2 Kefla, SSBE Vegeta and GoD Toppo are not on the level of Beerus yet, they are on the lower scale of GoD level.
Also you need to understand that GoD level is wide in itself and UIO1 Goku and suppressed Jiren are nowhere close to the peak of it where Beerus stands. Jiren's energy crushing Belmod was never a thing, since the character who said that was most likely talking about himself and other contestants and didn't include other GoDs and angels.
I'd appreciate if people stop bringing this up when this was already discussed. The only way they'll ever get to 2-C is if they are ridiculously stronger than both Beerus and Champa to the point where it can safely be said that they can handle their combined power.
@Ant
Done.
Also you need to understand that GoD level is wide in itself and UIO1 Goku and suppressed Jiren are nowhere close to the peak of it where Beerus stands. Jiren's energy crushing Belmod was never a thing, since the character who said that was most likely talking about himself and other contestants and didn't include other GoDs and angels.
I'd appreciate if people stop bringing this up when this was already discussed. The only way they'll ever get to 2-C is if they are ridiculously stronger than both Beerus and Champa to the point where it can safely be said that they can handle their combined power.
@Ant
Done.
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Actually, the statement from Whis and Vados referred to two GoDs in general, not just Beerus and Champa. Immediately before Vados' statement about the two universes being destroyed, Whis said; "Two Gods of Destruction mustn't ever fight." It doesn't have to specifically mean Beerus and Champa.
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