Katanagatari CRT

[Hl3_or_bust]

I know right. Though H13 is the only one throwing random insults.

whatever helps you feel better about your blatant lies and dishonesty

 

[Wokistan]

I mean, swords that are beyond physics because they're that sharp are still beyond physics. Idk the characters you're referencing though

Also can we like not fan the fires of arbitrary conflict? It doesn't get anyone anywhere

 

[Firephoenixearl]

whatever helps you feel better about your blatant lies and dishonesty

I mean...if you've seen anyone else throw insults pls quote it.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I mean, swords that are beyond physics because they're that sharp are still beyond physics. Idk the characters you're referencing though

Judging from the construct of the sentence i assume you missed my point.

In Katanagatari, there is no "because" that derrives from "beyond physics". "Beyond physics" is just a random statement that was stated once or twice, throughout the whole pseudo 24ep show. And nothing was stated to come as a result of "being beyond physics".

It is stated to cut anything cus it is sharp (to an unknown degree, but that is the mentioned mechanic, it is just sharp). Not cus it is beyond physics.

It is stated to be unable to be broken, cus it was built to be tough. Not cus it's beyond physics.

"Beyond physics" is just a statement that's being used to justify all that, it was never stated in verse that anything is a result of being beyond physics. Which is why it leaves the realm of "mechanics" and it enters just simple "statements", which can be just be a hyperbole or flowery writing as there was no further explanation of the whole thing, just a single line among a million with no further context.

Also the full quote is "Beyond physics and psychology", which doesn't even make sense without context which wasn't given.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Earl

Are you even listening to us anymore

You are straight up just talking to yourself at this point

Literally everything ***** that Deviant Blades do is because they were made to do that and they can do that because they exploit physics. Namakura is sharp enough to cut anything because it exploits physics to do so. Kanna is invulnerable because it exploits physics to be tough. The only possible exception to this is Shichika, since Nanami wasn't something that had been accounted for.

 

[WHYNAUT]

Well if a sword is stated to be beyond physics and it is able to cut through anything, which is backed up by people with info analysis and clairvoyance, isn't it pretty easy to connect the dots?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

At this point, it is starting to seem redundant.

 

[Theglassman12]

I don't see why Dura neg or invulnerability is invalid when it's stated by multiple people to act like that. Being able to cut through anything is kinda the basic example of what Durability negation does. I'm with HI3 on this.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I don't see why Dura neg or invulnerability is invalid when it's stated by multiple people to act like that. Being able to cut through anything is kinda the basic example of what Durability negation does. I'm with HI3 on this.

Statements like that are usually only in verse. Is the problem.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Well if a sword is stated to be beyond physics and it is able to cut through anything, which is backed up by people with info analysis and clairvoyance, isn't it pretty easy to connect the dots?

Sure but the fact that it's not stated to be mechanics makes it prone to being flowery writing or hyperbole. As its just a random statement, the best you can do is suppose based on the highest interpretation but there is nothing concrete and doesn't change that we're taking the highest possible interpretation without anything clear extrapolating stuff to high heavens.

My point is the sword being sharp and it being beyond physics were not related to each other so we're just connecting them together with no reason, assuming it's not just flowery writing or hyperbole and combine them to get the highest possible outcome we can get from this.

Especially when the quote is them being beyond physics and psychology. Half of that sentence doesn't make sense but we just forget about that and only take the part that can push the nlf.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

We are clearly not on the same page here, considering that the literal scan i posted above shows that the mechanism is exploiting physics. At absolute worst it would simply require some context that i have also already posted.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

>Scan

Im sorry did I miss something?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

You apparently have

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Especially when the quote is them being beyond physics and psychology. Half of that sentence doesn't make sense but we just forget about that and only take the part that can push the nlf.

exploit you mean

Also, even if it doesn't make sense, which i'll get to, how does that suddenly invalidate the other part? The exploitation of psychology is more than likely talking about the Deviant Blade's "poison", which corrupts people just by looking at them. Dokuto Mekki is notable for basically having this on steriods, while Oto Nokogiri lacks it.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Do give me the scan where it's said it all works cus of that instead of "the blades are beyond...". Or quote it if it's above and I missed it.

About the psychology. That's still only one sword, not all of them while the quote is for all the swords.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

The one that's posted above.

That you asked for before.

Also no, Dokuto Mekki just has a more potent form of the poison in the form of Shikizaki Kiki's memories, while Oto Nokogiri is just weird all around.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Yeah all the swords have inherent mindhax that I've been working on quantifying.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I'm fairly certain it's either unquantifiable or just memes on reasonable resistances, since it's supposed to become more powerful the more pure the wielder is.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Right. It's primary advantage is how many types of mindhaxes it is in one, not necessarily the strength of it.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Right. It's primary advantage is how many types of mindhaxes it is in one, not necessarily the strength of it.

Mind hax? The swords? That's a bit of humanlike mindhax. What i got from it is that people are blinded by the value of the swords. That's why people who work for money or honnor are not good to wield the swords cus the value is literally greater than anything you can pay someone, so after they collect the first sword they'll keep it. People who do it for honnor have a similar thing but due to the inherent value of the sword instead of the selling value. On the other hand Shichika wasn't affected because he didn't know nor value the swords, he wasn't doing it for the swords, he was doing it for Togame.

That's about as much mindhax as the owner of the shop being forced to be nice to the customers.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

No, the swords explicitly have a form of mindhax that influences people to take and protect them. It does this even to people like the Shrine Maidens, who wouldn't have any idea of the swords' value. Komori even is shocked that Shichika didn't feel the pull of the sword and said he could feel its desires while holding it.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yes but it is not literal mindhax. Which is why Togame didn't take someone who "could not get mindhaxed" but rather someone who had no interest in the swords. It's just a form of "money and power corrupt people". This is from the fact that Togame knew that if she looked for someone who did it all for "love" or in other words not for money and power it would be fine.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I discussed this with Agnaa, he said.

He agrees with the changes if being sharp and durable are the only reasons given for Dura neg and Invulnerability. Furthermore about the "exploit physics" scan. Levers exploit physics. Nuclear reactors exploit physics. I don't think that statement gives any abilities. it's just saying that their construction is purely in accordance with physical laws. it makes no comment on dura neg or invuln being legit.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

He seems to have missed the point entirely as well

 

[Firephoenixearl]

...ok...

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Yes but it is not literal mindhax. Which is why Togame didn't take someone who "could not get mindhaxed" but rather someone who had no interest in the swords. It's just a form of "money and power corrupt people". This is from the fact that Togame knew that if she looked for someone who did it all for "love" or in other words not for money and power it would be fine.

I'm more the fairly certain this is 100% semantics. Also, considering the kinds of people that took some of the Deviant Blades, like Meisei, that interpretation just doesn't work. I'm also not entirely sure what to say about that last bit, since it is technically true but she said that while trying to get Shichika, a Kyotoryuu practitioner, on her side, so idek.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Except the explanation was "do it for love and not for the swords". If you do it for the swords you'll get corrupted due to the worth and power they each have, if you do it for love instead you won't get corrupted cus you have no interest in the money or power it can give you.

Nothing like legit mind hax, just basic stuff that money and power does to people.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Considering how, no matter how loyal the people that the Shogun sent after the swords were, they always got corrupted, I'd say that it's not just people being greedy. But we all know that you'll never change your mind on this.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

>No matter how loyal

I mean you're giving people something that's worth literally more than a whole country. And has the power to beat just about anyone. What loyality would go beyond that? No matter how loyal in front of something of that caliber no wonder they'll chose that over being servants to the shogun.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

The wooden sword is specifically meant to counter the poison of the other swords, and that one has the most explicit mindhax in terms of what we actually see (besides Mekki). It literally enforces a personality change on the user that causes them to become more focused, driven, and emotionless.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

That seems about as good as ikki making kuraudo change his ways and start training by beating him. Doesn't feel legit but haven't seen katanagatari in some time so I may not remember some scans would be preferable.

 

[Agnaa]

Coming here to reiterate my earlier point.

I discussed this with Agnaa, he said.

He agrees with the changes if being sharp and durable are the only reasons given for Dura neg and Invulnerability. Furthermore about the "exploit physics" scan. Levers exploit physics. Nuclear reactors exploit physics. I don't think that statement gives any abilities. it's just saying that their construction is purely in accordance with physical laws. it makes no comment on dura neg or invuln being legit.

Since I've largely forgotten the arguments for and against points 1 and 2 I won't elaborate on those, but on point 3, when I asked Hl3 for the statement of Shichika being able to copy the deviant blades for other purposes, he couldn't provide it, and said that it was just heavily implied.

If a mere implication (that I didn't even pick up on in my viewing) is being used to justify giving Shichika almost a dozen abilities he's never shown before, I take huge issue with that, and more than just not being used in fights, it shouldn't be on his profile at all.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

I also take issue with it in hindsight. If nothing else we should specify that it is not to be assumed in debates. He essentially has only been proven to reverse-copy

 

[Firephoenixearl]

So we're done here?

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

The current conclusion is that the 3rd point is going away. There is nothing sufficent to support such a big thing. There is not even a statement just implications towards it apparently.

As for point 1 and 2. Agnaa used to agree, but since he doesn't remember the arguments anymore, we gonna have to wait a lil bit more.

@Agnaa

Quick tl;dr on point 1 and 2.

1. Can cut through anything because it is sharp. And Deviant blades Exploit Physics.

2. Cannot be broken. And Deviant Blades Exploit Physics

Those are the arguments for both.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I'm currently waiting for Jordan to get back to me about point 3 because I don't have the time to rewatch stuff.

 

[Agnaa]

If there are statements about them being able to cut through anything and about them not being able to be broken, I'd be happy to give them "Likely Durability Negation" and "Likely Invulnerability" respectively, as these are just about good enough statements to justify those abilities. But to quote myself on the exploit physics point...

Furthermore about the "exploit physics" scan. Levers exploit physics. Nuclear reactors exploit physics. I don't think that statement gives any abilities. it's just saying that their construction is purely in accordance with physical laws. it makes no comment on dura neg or invuln being legit.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

I am back.

The heaviest implication that Shichika would be able to replicate the other abilities is due to being "complete" and thus being better than all the "perfect" weapons, plus the fact that the Yasuri's occult curse gives them the status of weapons, not wielders, able to compensate by using their bodies to replicate the effects of the weapons they can't wield.

Both of which are very vague and likely not enough justification, especially considering that during Shichika's rampage there would have been plenty of time for him to utilize other Deviant Blade powers, but he didn't. He showed that he passively evolves to hardcounter weapons, and that he can replicate martial arts techniques that he has previously fought against, plus some other minor improvements.

"possibly Dura negation", and "possibly Invulnerability" are what I would use. I would also potentially add a note about the vagueness of their attributes and that debaters should specify which assumption they are making.