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Not sure if anyone else has seen the OOO movie (Kamen Rider OOO Wonderful the Movie: The Shogun and the 21 Core Medals), but I’m just gonna talk about AP stuff here.
Gara plans to become the “True OOO” by taking all of the Core Medals in order to destroy and recreate the world Gara ends up obtaining this form in it his Dragon Form. Not only is OOO able to defeat Dragon Gara, but he’s able to even stagger him before obtaining the rest of the Core Medals from the Greeed to attack with all forms. Keep this in mind.
The specs state “However, in the face of the situation where the world will be destroyed as it is, Greeed and others choose to help Kamen Rider OOO”. This also isn’t a vague-ish statement like Maki’s High 6-A. They blatantly state over and over that Gara plans to destroy the world and recreate it. Passing off the repeated statement + support by Toei's specs as a throwaway line isn't fair if we're saying the current High 6-A ranking is viable.
This was briefly brought up in another thread and I've debated it with another user before, but I think it's better to more formerly go over this revision idea. We should start with talking about why the High 6-A feat just isn't all that reliable.
Why High 6-A doesn't work:
So, aside from the fact that I can't for the life of me find the original value for surface scorching, we should really reevaluate what we're shown about the High 6-A statement.
"Planned to eliminate the Medal Vessel in order to reach "the existence of the ultimate void" after it would've consumed the Earth surface into a barren plain"
First thing off the bat to note is how the surface isn't scorched which would be the only thing supporting the High 6-A claim. Is it barren? Yes. Entirely?...Well, not quite. If you look at the image of the barren plain, there's very clearly still the ocean behind the land Eiji's vision. That doesn't exactly scream scorched Earth to me. Something like this would require a whole new calc, but I don't think it does given how vague the statement ultimately is.
So, what about the vision? Well, there's not actually any evidence that Maki himself gave the vision to Eiji.
Well, if Maki's truly stronger than Gara at this point, why not just slam his fists into the planet and get it over with?
Fair question. That's the thing though. Here's where we have to observe Maki's character, rather that simply just his end goal. In the links provided to the High 6-A "feat", it's made clear he has an entirely different motive. Note the following:
"The inhuman despair caused by such infinite desire will, in the end, leave no trace of the world in its wake...a truly beautiful ending."
This pretty much fits with his character if you've seen OOO. Simply by desiring for there to be nothing, we've seen Maki reduce part of a forest into nothingness. Maki isn't aiming to destroy the planet. Saying that there will be no trace of the world in its wake is him saying that he wants to rid the evidence of humanity ever existing. This is supported further as he's stated that he's doing this as to destroy the world while it's still "beautiful" before humanity makes it worse.
Where else is this supported? Well, when he was much younger, Maki used to have a sister he loved and viewed as a genuinely caring figure. However, later on when he saw she wasn't the person he thought she was, his solution is to literally burn down the house she lives in while she sleeps, ultimately killing her.
So yes, he could've just destroyed the planet, but that's not what he wanted.
What favours 5-B:
Gara needed prep to become this strong.
Yeah, but why should that matter? If he fought OOO in a form as powerful as 5-B, that doesn't work as an anti-feat for his rating
If the Greeed realized that Dragon Gara was going to destroy the planet and gave their Medals to OOO to briefly use, doesn't this create an inconsistency in the scaling chain?
Not quite. See, OOO and the Greeed are both constantly growing in strength throughout the season. The Greeed continue to get stronger through their schemes to gain more Cell Medals as well as all of their Core Medals and OOO is able to get better through mastering his Combos + continuing to fight. Kougami says early in the series that OOO's potential is greater than infinity (represented by him adding a circle to an infinity symbol, creating an "OOO" symbol). Obviously, I'm not arguing for Infinite AP OOO, but the point of that scene is essentially to tell us that Eiji does in fact grow stronger.
Also keep in mind that if Earth was destroyed, the Greeed would lose their source of Cell Medals, that being the humans they can feed off the greed of. Overall, that's not very beneficial to them. Maki himself doesn't like Gara's plan since he doesn't see it as "true destruction" given the plan to recreate it present. Maki himself prefers a true ending, where humanity, or whatever new civilization could be formed isn't there to make the world "ugly" in his eyes, as we discussed above. So to him, recreation, even if it requires the destruction of Earth, isn't the ending he wants. Note that when Maki is killed by OOO, he claims that it "completes him". Even he wanted to die at some point after humanity was wiped out.
It's not as if the Greeed were currently vastly under OOO's power at this point anyways. It should also be noted that each Greeed knows of the Core Medals' abilities, so they would likely all have some idea of how useful Gatakiriba would be.
Essentially, it wouldn't be unreasonable for the Greeed to catch up with OOO and even surpass him at times after this event
Eiji didn't have a ton of trouble using Putotyra in this movie during the finale (when he uses Gatakiriba clones to use all Complete Combos). That isn't too consistent.
Yes, there wasn't much of an issue for Eiji during the final battle. And yes, Eiji only gains full control of Putotyra later. But consider this: in an episode proceeding this movie, Ankh is able to verbally reach out to Eiji and get him to cancel out of his Putotyra transformation. In this same episode, Eiji even calls forth the Purple Medals by choice. Similar to the exhaustion issue that the Complete Combos first presented, OOO has shown capable of adapting to the side effects of his power. It's not as if when he transforms into Putotyra, he never attacks the enemy he was already fighting in his more controllable forms. Plus, it could be argued that even in an enraged state, he still knows that attacking himself is a dumb idea.
Even when Eiji was struggling with Putotyra's Berserker state, Eiji's Priority was always the current threat and he only ever shifted targets once the current target was out of the way (during the first time Putotyra used, he destroyed the Yummy he was fighting and then only after that did he attack Birth)
TL;DR: Eiji would at least have enough control during the fight with Gara to fight him confidently and to say Putotyra wouldn't fight Gara to begin with makes no sense.
Wasn't the destruction of Earth only to be slowly accomplished through Gara's device flipped areas of the planet with space manip?
Kougami states that Gara’s device is manipulating not only exchanging places in space, but time as well. If Gara was destroying the world this way, he wouldn’t need to collect the Cell or Core Medals. Kougami referring to the world’s countdown to destruction is a reference to the time it’s taking for Gara to collect the Medals needed to achieve his form of “True OOO”. Remember, Gara needed to achieve his Dragon form in order to destroy the world. He wasn't 5-B right at the beginning of the movie.
Is this movie canon?
Yup. Gentaro remembers Eiji when he arrives during Fourze x OOO and Eiji actually goes directly to him. It also doesn't directly contradict anything currently going on in OOO, like the Medals is currently holding, with the only reason he briefly uses all of them at the end being due to the Greeed complying.
Does this mess with scaling chains?
Admittedly, it could affect Fourze's given their crossover movie is canon and a source for scaling. Or at least, that's what I thought at first. Super Tatoba does pretty much all of the fighting against Super GingaOh in the finale of Fourze x OOO, with Fourze only joining in to help him with the finishing Rider Kick. In other words, Fourze was pretty much just a cheerleader here and while I do think he scales to OOO's speed given he can fight alongside him, I'd say the gap between them remains quite wide. Nevertheless, Fourze's scaling should be fine, as it's ultimately not affected by this.
What would the tiers look like should this be approved?
9-B | Low 7-C | 5-B | At least 5-B, higher with Ground of Rage and Lost Blaze
Wall level (Has fought those who can harm him. Dented metal plating with a single punch. Can fight against several Pseudo Yummies, which are capable of heavily cracking a concrete cross grave with just a hug and likely would have destroyed it had it not been interfered with. Once transformed into Kamen Rider Birth and fought in said form meaning his body met the physical demands to properly utilize the Birth system which would make Eiji comparable to Shintaro Goto) | Small Town level (Destroyed the Luna Dopant, who could harm and restrain Double) | Planet level (Was capable of staggering, and then using all of his Complete Combos to destroy Dragon Gara, who in his current state had gained the power of "True OOO", planning to destroy and recreate the Earth, with his power being enough of a threat for each Greeed to lend Eiji their Core Medals as to avoid the destruction of the planet) | At least Planet Level (Stronger than before), higher with Ground of Rage and Lost Blaze (One-shot Maki, who could defeat OOO using Putotyra. Lost Blaze destroyed both Maki and the Medal Vessel).
What about Birth?
Birth is often portrayed as capable of fighting the Greeed, but still weaker than OOO. After all, he was specifically designed to help OOO, so while he's in the same ballpark, he isn't quite on Eiji's level. I'd put him him at 5-B still, though no "At least" when taking into account his EoS contributions.
Of course, this would also affect Maki and so on.
Isn't jumping this far ahead in tiers a little jarring?
Well, it's not uncommon for many verses, but let's be fair here and just look at Kamen Rider alone. While all of the seasons tend to differ especially with who gets to write a season, tier jumps like this aren't uncommon for Kamen Rider (would've linked Build as an example but we really gotta revise his page lmao). As long as there's viable reasoning, of course. Because of what I stated before, I think we can add an ability for Eiji's human key:
Accelerated Development (Throughout the series, Eiji has consistently overcome obstacles that came as a result of his transformations. While the aftermath of using Complete Combos once exhausted him, he grew to the point where he wouldn't be tired at all after using any of them. Putotyra was originally a form he could barely control, being forced into the form by the Purple Medals themselves which stuck him in a raging state, though even before Eiji gained complete control over the form, he was able to call upon these Medals consensually and even detransform from Putotyra when Ankh reached out to him. As OOO, he continues to become stronger throughout the series, being able to catch up with the Greeed who continue to gain more power overtime)
Thoughts?
Gara plans to become the “True OOO” by taking all of the Core Medals in order to destroy and recreate the world Gara ends up obtaining this form in it his Dragon Form. Not only is OOO able to defeat Dragon Gara, but he’s able to even stagger him before obtaining the rest of the Core Medals from the Greeed to attack with all forms. Keep this in mind.
The specs state “However, in the face of the situation where the world will be destroyed as it is, Greeed and others choose to help Kamen Rider OOO”. This also isn’t a vague-ish statement like Maki’s High 6-A. They blatantly state over and over that Gara plans to destroy the world and recreate it. Passing off the repeated statement + support by Toei's specs as a throwaway line isn't fair if we're saying the current High 6-A ranking is viable.
This was briefly brought up in another thread and I've debated it with another user before, but I think it's better to more formerly go over this revision idea. We should start with talking about why the High 6-A feat just isn't all that reliable.
Why High 6-A doesn't work:
So, aside from the fact that I can't for the life of me find the original value for surface scorching, we should really reevaluate what we're shown about the High 6-A statement.
"Planned to eliminate the Medal Vessel in order to reach "the existence of the ultimate void" after it would've consumed the Earth surface into a barren plain"
First thing off the bat to note is how the surface isn't scorched which would be the only thing supporting the High 6-A claim. Is it barren? Yes. Entirely?...Well, not quite. If you look at the image of the barren plain, there's very clearly still the ocean behind the land Eiji's vision. That doesn't exactly scream scorched Earth to me. Something like this would require a whole new calc, but I don't think it does given how vague the statement ultimately is.
So, what about the vision? Well, there's not actually any evidence that Maki himself gave the vision to Eiji.
Well, if Maki's truly stronger than Gara at this point, why not just slam his fists into the planet and get it over with?
Fair question. That's the thing though. Here's where we have to observe Maki's character, rather that simply just his end goal. In the links provided to the High 6-A "feat", it's made clear he has an entirely different motive. Note the following:
"The inhuman despair caused by such infinite desire will, in the end, leave no trace of the world in its wake...a truly beautiful ending."
This pretty much fits with his character if you've seen OOO. Simply by desiring for there to be nothing, we've seen Maki reduce part of a forest into nothingness. Maki isn't aiming to destroy the planet. Saying that there will be no trace of the world in its wake is him saying that he wants to rid the evidence of humanity ever existing. This is supported further as he's stated that he's doing this as to destroy the world while it's still "beautiful" before humanity makes it worse.
Where else is this supported? Well, when he was much younger, Maki used to have a sister he loved and viewed as a genuinely caring figure. However, later on when he saw she wasn't the person he thought she was, his solution is to literally burn down the house she lives in while she sleeps, ultimately killing her.
So yes, he could've just destroyed the planet, but that's not what he wanted.
What favours 5-B:
Gara needed prep to become this strong.
Yeah, but why should that matter? If he fought OOO in a form as powerful as 5-B, that doesn't work as an anti-feat for his rating
If the Greeed realized that Dragon Gara was going to destroy the planet and gave their Medals to OOO to briefly use, doesn't this create an inconsistency in the scaling chain?
Not quite. See, OOO and the Greeed are both constantly growing in strength throughout the season. The Greeed continue to get stronger through their schemes to gain more Cell Medals as well as all of their Core Medals and OOO is able to get better through mastering his Combos + continuing to fight. Kougami says early in the series that OOO's potential is greater than infinity (represented by him adding a circle to an infinity symbol, creating an "OOO" symbol). Obviously, I'm not arguing for Infinite AP OOO, but the point of that scene is essentially to tell us that Eiji does in fact grow stronger.
Also keep in mind that if Earth was destroyed, the Greeed would lose their source of Cell Medals, that being the humans they can feed off the greed of. Overall, that's not very beneficial to them. Maki himself doesn't like Gara's plan since he doesn't see it as "true destruction" given the plan to recreate it present. Maki himself prefers a true ending, where humanity, or whatever new civilization could be formed isn't there to make the world "ugly" in his eyes, as we discussed above. So to him, recreation, even if it requires the destruction of Earth, isn't the ending he wants. Note that when Maki is killed by OOO, he claims that it "completes him". Even he wanted to die at some point after humanity was wiped out.
It's not as if the Greeed were currently vastly under OOO's power at this point anyways. It should also be noted that each Greeed knows of the Core Medals' abilities, so they would likely all have some idea of how useful Gatakiriba would be.
Essentially, it wouldn't be unreasonable for the Greeed to catch up with OOO and even surpass him at times after this event
Eiji didn't have a ton of trouble using Putotyra in this movie during the finale (when he uses Gatakiriba clones to use all Complete Combos). That isn't too consistent.
Yes, there wasn't much of an issue for Eiji during the final battle. And yes, Eiji only gains full control of Putotyra later. But consider this: in an episode proceeding this movie, Ankh is able to verbally reach out to Eiji and get him to cancel out of his Putotyra transformation. In this same episode, Eiji even calls forth the Purple Medals by choice. Similar to the exhaustion issue that the Complete Combos first presented, OOO has shown capable of adapting to the side effects of his power. It's not as if when he transforms into Putotyra, he never attacks the enemy he was already fighting in his more controllable forms. Plus, it could be argued that even in an enraged state, he still knows that attacking himself is a dumb idea.
Even when Eiji was struggling with Putotyra's Berserker state, Eiji's Priority was always the current threat and he only ever shifted targets once the current target was out of the way (during the first time Putotyra used, he destroyed the Yummy he was fighting and then only after that did he attack Birth)
TL;DR: Eiji would at least have enough control during the fight with Gara to fight him confidently and to say Putotyra wouldn't fight Gara to begin with makes no sense.
Wasn't the destruction of Earth only to be slowly accomplished through Gara's device flipped areas of the planet with space manip?
Kougami states that Gara’s device is manipulating not only exchanging places in space, but time as well. If Gara was destroying the world this way, he wouldn’t need to collect the Cell or Core Medals. Kougami referring to the world’s countdown to destruction is a reference to the time it’s taking for Gara to collect the Medals needed to achieve his form of “True OOO”. Remember, Gara needed to achieve his Dragon form in order to destroy the world. He wasn't 5-B right at the beginning of the movie.
Is this movie canon?
Yup. Gentaro remembers Eiji when he arrives during Fourze x OOO and Eiji actually goes directly to him. It also doesn't directly contradict anything currently going on in OOO, like the Medals is currently holding, with the only reason he briefly uses all of them at the end being due to the Greeed complying.
Does this mess with scaling chains?
Admittedly, it could affect Fourze's given their crossover movie is canon and a source for scaling. Or at least, that's what I thought at first. Super Tatoba does pretty much all of the fighting against Super GingaOh in the finale of Fourze x OOO, with Fourze only joining in to help him with the finishing Rider Kick. In other words, Fourze was pretty much just a cheerleader here and while I do think he scales to OOO's speed given he can fight alongside him, I'd say the gap between them remains quite wide. Nevertheless, Fourze's scaling should be fine, as it's ultimately not affected by this.
What would the tiers look like should this be approved?
9-B | Low 7-C | 5-B | At least 5-B, higher with Ground of Rage and Lost Blaze
Wall level (Has fought those who can harm him. Dented metal plating with a single punch. Can fight against several Pseudo Yummies, which are capable of heavily cracking a concrete cross grave with just a hug and likely would have destroyed it had it not been interfered with. Once transformed into Kamen Rider Birth and fought in said form meaning his body met the physical demands to properly utilize the Birth system which would make Eiji comparable to Shintaro Goto) | Small Town level (Destroyed the Luna Dopant, who could harm and restrain Double) | Planet level (Was capable of staggering, and then using all of his Complete Combos to destroy Dragon Gara, who in his current state had gained the power of "True OOO", planning to destroy and recreate the Earth, with his power being enough of a threat for each Greeed to lend Eiji their Core Medals as to avoid the destruction of the planet) | At least Planet Level (Stronger than before), higher with Ground of Rage and Lost Blaze (One-shot Maki, who could defeat OOO using Putotyra. Lost Blaze destroyed both Maki and the Medal Vessel).
What about Birth?
Birth is often portrayed as capable of fighting the Greeed, but still weaker than OOO. After all, he was specifically designed to help OOO, so while he's in the same ballpark, he isn't quite on Eiji's level. I'd put him him at 5-B still, though no "At least" when taking into account his EoS contributions.
Of course, this would also affect Maki and so on.
Isn't jumping this far ahead in tiers a little jarring?
Well, it's not uncommon for many verses, but let's be fair here and just look at Kamen Rider alone. While all of the seasons tend to differ especially with who gets to write a season, tier jumps like this aren't uncommon for Kamen Rider (would've linked Build as an example but we really gotta revise his page lmao). As long as there's viable reasoning, of course. Because of what I stated before, I think we can add an ability for Eiji's human key:
Accelerated Development (Throughout the series, Eiji has consistently overcome obstacles that came as a result of his transformations. While the aftermath of using Complete Combos once exhausted him, he grew to the point where he wouldn't be tired at all after using any of them. Putotyra was originally a form he could barely control, being forced into the form by the Purple Medals themselves which stuck him in a raging state, though even before Eiji gained complete control over the form, he was able to call upon these Medals consensually and even detransform from Putotyra when Ankh reached out to him. As OOO, he continues to become stronger throughout the series, being able to catch up with the Greeed who continue to gain more power overtime)
Thoughts?
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