kamen rider discussion thread 5

[Nicetoderp]

Same thing can be said about Pre Cure Crossover and other Tokusatsu show.

And some of them make sense with OOO movie taisen to be very much canon due to the existence of Double Rocket Switch.

 

[Kamen_Rider_Xross]

And most of them fall into the Legend Rider Key, that at least until now isn't really used much.

 

[DVD181]

Same thing can be said about Pre Cure Crossover and other Tokusatsu show.

And some of them make sense with OOO movie taisen to be very much canon due to the existence of Double Rocket Switch.

Key word being "some". Movie War Mega Max makes sense at least, given that it actually had ramifications in Fourze and does give justification to scaling Eiji (and possibly W too) to Fourze Cosmic.


But some of these are just dumb, honestly.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Actually, while Movie feats tend to be inconsistent alot and worst. Both Ex-Aid and Drive crossover are accepted because the crossover happen in the spin-off, which is still following the series canon and in any cases are pretty normal in my opinion.

Den-O scaling to Decade because both series have time-travel/parallel universe shenanigans which make sense if you take a look at it.

Some movie are canon because the context from it are mentioned or appeared again during other series. Like the Foundation X had exist from W to Ex-Aid and become the main antagonist on some occasion.

What we trying to do here is make sure which one is right or wrong and choose the best one for our scaling system.

 

[MagiSinbad]

honestly, if there's something Toei want to tell us from the crossover is that all riders are equal in power, or not too far from each other

Except waga maou

 

[Jamesthetaker]

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[MagiSinbad]

They all have fought Zamonas and Zonji, who are 4-B villains, so that's a big buff

 

[Nicetoderp]

Give them all legend rider key.

 

[DVD181]

Actually, while Movie feats tend to be inconsistent alot and worst. Both Ex-Aid and Drive crossover are accepted because the crossover happen in the spin-off, which is still following the series canon and in any cases are pretty normal in my opinion.
Den-O scaling to Decade because both series have time-travel/parallel universe shenanigans which make sense if you take a look at it.

Some movie are canon because the context from it are mentioned or appeared again during other series. Like the Foundation X had exist from W to Ex-Aid and become the main antagonist on some occasion.

What we trying to do here is make sure which one is right or wrong and choose the best one for our scaling system.

The Ex-Aid and Drive crossovers are perfectly canon and fine to use; what I'm saying there is that instead of scaling everyone to legend riders even in entirely canon crossovers and calling it a day we should actually be trying to find feats in-series to support these ratings.

Den-O scaling to Decade...no, just no. I'm still not entirely convinced that Decade should at any point in the original series scale to 4-B except for the Rider War itself, and Den-O wasn't even a crossover show so it's hardly justifiable (and honestly, Ryotaro's profile needs some actual calcs to support his lower tier scaling).

Also, Foundation X was only really around until Wizard at latest; Kaisei Mogami showing up in the Build/Ex-Aid Movie War was him acting as an independent agent; Foundation X appeared to have died by the time Gaim rolled around.

I'm not saying your scaling is bad, just...kinda messy.


Also, directed at you in particular: if you're going to do any scaling whatsoever from a calculation, for the love of god, you HAVE to let the calc group approve it first...and a lot of the ones I've seen posted on your blog have no such endorsement at all.

 

[DVD181]

Give them all legend rider key.

THE HARDEST OF AGREES HERE

 

[DVD181]

On two unrelated side notes, first off I plan on doing a calc on the final battle from Gaim when Lord Baron stops and disintegrates the weapons Kiwami Gaim throws at him. Given that it's either vaporization or atomization based on how they just vanish into thin air, this could at least be a strong supporting feat for the 7-C rating for Gaim's late-series characters.

Also, anyone else see Lil Nas X's cosplay of Cronus in his newest music video?

"These vampire hunters will be discontinued!"

 

[Nicetoderp]

Mhh make sense I supposed.

 

[LinkSlayerLvX]

honestly, if there's something Toei want to tell us from the crossover is that all riders are equal in power, or not too far from each other
Except waga maou

IWAE WAGA MAOU LOL

 

[Nicetoderp]

Resistance to Matter Manipulation (Kuuga, Evolt), Explosion Manipulation (Kuuga), Weather Manipulation (Cronus, Kuuga), Elemental Manipulation (Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Ice, Lighting, Light, various Kamen Riders use them), Existence Erasure (Decade), Law Manipulation & Physics Manipulation (Genm Billion), Spatial Manipulation (OOO, Genm), Time Manipulation (Zi-O II, Genm, Cronus,etc.), Reality Warping, Void Manipulation (OOO), Mind Manipulation (Leangle), Poison Manipulation (Leangle, Brain), Disease Manipulation (Genm, Cronos), Status Effect Inducement, Paralysis Inducement, Gravity Manipulation, Plot Manipulation (Ex-Aid), Sealing, Deconstruction, BFR, Black Hole Creation, Empathic Manipulation (Ghost), Sin Manipulation (Specter), Power Nullification (Ghost, Specter).

There. Rephrased them for you.

Or alternatively, say: Resistance to All Heisei Kame Riders' Powers and Abilities (Icluding non-protagonists as well)

Also, anyone willing to add this resistance to Baraku?

I also has been wondering if Sougo in Ohma form would gain resistance negation as well.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Ex-Aid and Drive crossovers happen because first of all: Ohja isn't exactly a Legend Rider because he was revived back by Foundation X, not come back like other Riders.

Why Decade shouldn't be 4-B? He scale to A.R World Black who should be as strong as his original series.

Den-O actually scale to Decade because in their crossover movie made sure that Decade trip to Den-O world was the original because it's original characters make appearance, not A.R ones like other worlds.

Also, i just re-post calcs from other sites, those calcs were approved by people in that site so it's fine to use.

Yeah, i agree that many pages need more justifications for their profiles, we are trying to find and calc feats for them. But not many people have times to do that, we are trying our best to complete every pages here.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Since phase 2 Heisei, alot of crossovers happened in canon timelines and cross-scaling from many series are used. Both Ohja and Accel cannot accepted as Legend Rider anymore for many reasons.

The time between Accel latest appearance in movie and Drive debut doesn't give him much justifications to become a Legend Rider. Ohja being revived cannot be counted as Legend Rider either. Both of their power doesn't show being different from canon series.

Yuto Sakurai for example, he have the Zi-O key which marked his appearance different from his canon counterpart. That's how we seperate a character from their Legend Rider key.

 

[Nicetoderp]

Also, anyone here would like to add the resistance to Baruku. And would Sougo get resistance negation as well?

 

[MagiSinbad]

Also, anyone here would like to add the resistance to Baruku. And would Sougo get resistance negation as well?

we need to make a revision thread first. Otherwise the changes will be regarded as vandalisms

 

[Nicetoderp]

Hmm true, true.

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

Such is bureaucracy.

But it has its reasoning.

If somebody who don't know anything about the Verse came asking, we can use the CRT as reference for how it comes into the profile.

 

[MagiSinbad]

we need to get the scan referench to Baruku's immunity over the heisei's power

Edit : huh, it's seem like the english subtitle version of the movie isnt accessible in my country. Welp, gonna leave it to you guy then

 

[Jag50]

The crossover movies in Neo-Heisei era are perfectly canon.

However the cameo rider scenes are unquantifiable.

Such as KR Ghost's cameo of taking on 3 super evolved Roidmude's and then later on being only equal in power to Drive: Type Speed in the Genesis movie.

W defeating Shadowmoon who Kuuga and Decade couldn't defeat.

Rabbit Tank Build defeating ParaDX Level 99.

All of those ridiculous marketing ploys do not count. Only in-movie/special events do.

Because Toei does indeed notify to us that in terms of raw power/stats, Rider's are all relative to one another (In terms of crossover-events only, though) The only thing that seperates them from one another are abiliies and Lore.

W might be relative to the likes of Kuuga in terms of AP scaling for example but that doesn't mean Kuuga wouldn't actually manhandle him in battle if he tried to power-play with him.

This is how the Precure-verse is treated on here so KR should be the same.

-Cameos and Movie form debuts are unquantifiable as they are usually contradicted (Consistently) by later events.

-In movie/Special events that are canon due in fact, get the scaling for ALL riders in terms of Legend Key.

 

[EMS-TC02_Phantom]

When did Ghost pull that off?

There's at least a precedent in Build's cameo. Gorilla Halfbody have an instant death effect built-in into it, which ironically enough never seem to actually proc in the series proper

 

[Nicetoderp]

In the spirit world where Shinosuke kinda die for a bit.

And Zi-O could make sense in the way that the Sougo he see there isnt the same Sougo in the series. But Sougo Tokiwa from original Ohma timeline.

 

[EMS-TC02_Phantom]

I mean what episode/movie. Only Ghost cameo i remember happening in Drive was in that one movie where someone from the future came to the present and Takeru doesn't really do much beside being floaty ghost in it or the last episode where a criminal somehow got his hand on an Eyecon

 

[Jag50]

It was after Shinnosuke and Heart defeated the Sigma.

Shinnosuke's body collapsed and was on the verge of dying but Takeru came into the spirit world and saved him.

I think it was the 2nd to last episode.

 

[Nicetoderp]

Episode 47 right after the team bodied Sigma.

 

[EMS-TC02_Phantom]

Such as KR Ghost's cameo of taking on 3 super evolved Roidmude's and then later on being only equal in power to Drive: Type Speed in the Genesis movie.

I don't see 3 Super Evolved Roidmude there, there was only 1 which is golden Freeze. There's also some missing details in your example that makes it out of context and/or flawed. We don't know the relation behind those Roidmude ghosts that just randomly spawned from a Ganma Gate relatively to their living selves, the whole thing took place in some weird afterlife/near-death spiritual landscape and i don't really see any reason to assume they somehow retain their normal power they had in life when they could even be a Ganma or some variant of other evil spirit for all i care because they too can shapeshift to some degree.

People taking on other people doesn't automatically makes them equal/comparable. Ghost doesn't really fight back in those scenes and he was mainly just dodging or deflecting attack. Ghost only took them down with Gan Gun Saber which on its own have a matter destroying hax that none of the Roidmude really resist nor is it resisted by low level Ganma either

You can have some example of cameos being inconsistent or what have you, but this ain't one

 

[LinkSlayerLvX]

Such as KR Ghost's cameo of taking on 3 super evolved Roidmude's and then later on being only equal in power to Drive: Type Speed in the Genesis movie.

>> That only in Shinnosuke's dream. I think that cannot be counted, but in Genesis movie, he should be scaled

Rabbit Tank Build defeating ParaDX Level 99.

>> I think that depend on the wearer, that is Takumi Kazuragi not Sento

 

[LinkSlayerLvX]

When did Ghost pull that off?
There's at least a precedent in Build's cameo. Gorilla Halfbody have an instant death effect built-in into it, which ironically enough never seem to actually proc in the series proper

instant death effect? You mean during fought Genm and knock him out in one shot?

 

[EMS-TC02_Phantom]

They're the exact same person just with different set of minds and memories. Though yeah there's seem to be a difference when it comes to Best Match preference between Sento and Takumi which could affect how they use a certain Best Match

 

[Jag50]

>Gan Gun Saber >Matter Destroying hax >That none of the roidmude really resist nor is it resisted.

....How did that work out for Specter in the Genesis movie again?

>Dodging and deflecting hits from an opponent doesn't mean anything in the feats department.

Wait...What? I'm so confused right now.

Also how did you skip over the Shadowmoon and Build examples? They are by far the most offensive in the franchise thus far.

 

[LinkSlayerLvX]

>Gan Gun Saber
>Matter Destroying hax >That none of the roidmude really resist nor is it resisted.

Or that is Ghost's soul destroying hax?

 

[EMS-TC02_Phantom]

Good job at bringing a Rider whose whole body armor are made with the same kind of material with the same kind of properties of matter destruction/defense abilities, whose not also a low level Ganma either so that doesn't even change my point in the slightest

Almost everyone on Ghost have something made out of Quantum Solid which is the thing that gave them their matter related hax, which is a material that no one in Drive utilize. Someone from Ghost interacting with a Quantum Solid hax is a very different thing than someone not from Ghost interacting with a Quantum Solid hax




Do you even read my post or did you just nitpick the shit outta them? Why'd you even ignore the argument i pointed out in my first paragraph that Link also mentioned? Also yea dodging and deflecting ***** doesn't really matter all that much when you don't consider the full context into account. Ghost for the most part only dodge their hit and redirect their blows which wouldn't really be a comparable case as actually blocking/stopping them right in their track, which is also his main method of figthing btw

And why should i? That's not even my point, the hell are you heading towards with the argument? I even said how you can have your example and i was simply pointing out how your Ghost example isn't one due to context and details that you were missing

 

[EMS-TC02_Phantom]

snip

Or that is Ghost's soul destroying hax?
Ghost have all kinds of matter and soul related hax. The Riders for example can boost their armor's general toughness through force of will/emotion or just straight up make them to be non-matter and violate laws of physics coz duh they're freaking ghost. While when used offensively the material just annihilate matter that came into physical contact with it

 

[EMS-TC02_Phantom]

Made a new thread since this one got pretty long

Go here: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/4027755

 

[LinkSlayerLvX]

Sound like we should make CRT for Ghost then

 

[EMS-TC02_Phantom]

Take it to the new thread instead

 

[Jag50]

Good job at bringing a Rider whose whole body armor are made with the same kind of material with the same kind of properties of matter destruction/defense abilities, whose not also a low level Ganma either so that doesn't even change my point in the slightest
Almost everyone on Ghost have something made out of Quantum Solid which is the thing that gave them their matter related hax, which is a material that no one in Drive utilize. Someone from Ghost interacting with a Quantum Solid hax is a very different thing than someone not from Ghost interacting with a Quantum Solid hax

Do you even read my post or did you just nitpick the shit outta them? Why'd you even ignore the argument i pointed out in my first paragraph that Link also mentioned? Also yea dodging and deflecting ***** doesn't really matter all that much when you don't consider the full context into account. Ghost for the most part only dodge their hit and redirect their blows which wouldn't really be a comparable case as actually blocking/stopping them right in their track, which is also his main method of figthing btw

And why should i? That's not even my point, the hell are you heading towards with the argument? I even said how you can have your example and i was simply pointing out how your Ghost example isn't one due to context and details that you were missing

So again I ask.

Explain how that worked out for Specter in the Genesis movie.

Idc if you're heated I'm just wondering where that speculation comes from regarding the roidmudes and the Ghost hax when there ws an example already shown.

Also no...If you're redirecting and blocking hits from any character then reaction speeds and parry strength are to be taken into account...I do not know what you're getting at.

 

[DVD181]

Ah shit, here we go agai