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Balls are going to explode due to me holding back my cummies
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Kakuzu is Being Downplayed
- Thread starter NoodIes67
- Start date
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- #122
No I don't think it would be unusual for 2 characters not random Jonin to be able to cut Kakuzu when they have no anti-feats. Also those characters were literally with asuma and shikamaru when they fought asuma the first time, and were completely unable to do anything to him, once again displaying that kakuzu is weaker. Not only are the edo tensei's power is weaker, but they're also slower and physically weaker as displayed with madara and tobirama.
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Look buddy I know you are really invested in this but you are just wrong.The manga disagrees with you.I have already sent the scan of Yamato explaing the charka wheel.[1]
@LSirLancelotDuLacl
@LSirLancelotDuLacl
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- #125
@LSirLancelotDuLaci No Madara already had hashirama cells as an edo and he was stated to of been approaching his prime. So even with the amp of the hashirama cells and the rinnegan madara was still considered to be weaker than his prime alive form. I do understand what you said but you are blantantly wrong.
Also Another thing, when kabuto states that Madara was made beyond his prime, Madara in the panels following tells him that he knows nothing about his prime , and then both madara and hashirama make claims indicating that madara was regaining his previous strength despite having multiple amps.
Also Another thing, when kabuto states that Madara was made beyond his prime, Madara in the panels following tells him that he knows nothing about his prime , and then both madara and hashirama make claims indicating that madara was regaining his previous strength despite having multiple amps.
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@Webcamaparrot
Obviously no, as that doesn't contradict what I am saying?
Obviously no, as that doesn't contradict what I am saying?
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Rinnegan doesn't amp your AP in anyway... Also, Hashirama cells is a vitality and chakra amount amp, the only thing it means is that he can use wood release and has much bigger chakra reserves, his AP remains the same. So no, you are just misunderstanding me severely.
Except Madara gets literally no amps until he sucks the sage energy from Hashirama. You know, that thing that ACTUALLY boosts the power of techniques by a crap ton and increases your AP and Dura by a lot? Yeah that.
By the way, no anti feats means nothing for those jonin. They have nothing that tells us they are anything special as jonin, you are the one that has to give proof because the burden is on you.
So you are still left trying to justify Kakazu due to being nerfed, when the said Nerf would need to be enormous. Just saying he's weaker proves nothing, because you don't seem to realize he'd have to be MUCH weaker to justify this, yet no one else hit with the Edo is shown as being so stupidly below their living power.
Except Madara gets literally no amps until he sucks the sage energy from Hashirama. You know, that thing that ACTUALLY boosts the power of techniques by a crap ton and increases your AP and Dura by a lot? Yeah that.
By the way, no anti feats means nothing for those jonin. They have nothing that tells us they are anything special as jonin, you are the one that has to give proof because the burden is on you.
So you are still left trying to justify Kakazu due to being nerfed, when the said Nerf would need to be enormous. Just saying he's weaker proves nothing, because you don't seem to realize he'd have to be MUCH weaker to justify this, yet no one else hit with the Edo is shown as being so stupidly below their living power.
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- #129
So the sharingan does amp your AP as it is stated that the sharingan increases one's strength and it is directly shown that each evolution of the sharingan is superior to the previous. And this is supported by the fact that the rinnegan actually overwhelmed obito "with power"
Now you're also ignoring the fact that Madara WAS AN EDO when he absorbed hashirama's sage mode AND GOT RESURRECTED and still was only approaching his previous strength despite having all of these amps.
Now on to the Jonin point. they only have 1 feat and that's cutting a weakened kakuzu, them having no anti feats means that it is impossible for that feat to be inconsistent, so they would just scale to that kakuzu.
I have already proven at this point that edo's make you significantly physically weaker so those Jonin wouldn't scale to alive Kakuzu anyway, but even if you say they did, that wouldn't be inconsistent due to a lack of anti feats. and yes tobirama and hashirama were only able to summon a few clones despite having massive quantities of chakra.
Now you're also ignoring the fact that Madara WAS AN EDO when he absorbed hashirama's sage mode AND GOT RESURRECTED and still was only approaching his previous strength despite having all of these amps.
Now on to the Jonin point. they only have 1 feat and that's cutting a weakened kakuzu, them having no anti feats means that it is impossible for that feat to be inconsistent, so they would just scale to that kakuzu.
I have already proven at this point that edo's make you significantly physically weaker so those Jonin wouldn't scale to alive Kakuzu anyway, but even if you say they did, that wouldn't be inconsistent due to a lack of anti feats. and yes tobirama and hashirama were only able to summon a few clones despite having massive quantities of chakra.
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> Now on to the Jonin point. they only have 1 feat and that's cutting a weakened kakuzu, them having no anti feats means that it is impossible for that feat to be inconsistent, so they would just scale to that kakuzu.
They have feats prior to the 4th Shinobi War where they were completely trounced by Kukaku and were clearly inferior to Asuma who is only 7-C.
Yet you're suggesting they somehow reach High 6-C AP?
They have feats prior to the 4th Shinobi War where they were completely trounced by Kukaku and were clearly inferior to Asuma who is only 7-C.
Yet you're suggesting they somehow reach High 6-C AP?
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So Edo does make u weaker
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He bodied them when he was alive but lost when he was edo
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- Thread starter
- #134
No you have somehow completely ignored my argument for the last hour. Them being beaten by Kakuzu while alive and doing damage to him as an edo literally displays a weakened Kakuzu. I'm saying if you're going to make the argument that Kakuzu wasn't weakened those Jonin do not have anti-feats so it wouldn't be inconsistent for them to have that level of power, but at this point I have displayed how significantly edo tensei weakens you so I shouldn't have to steel man you on that anymore.
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You need to demonstrate that Edo Tensei can somehow lower your durability from High 6-C+ to At least 7-C.
Saying 'he was weakened to an unknown degree' is not sufficient evidence.
There isn't enough evidence to even suggest that the attacks Matatabi used on him are even High 6-C+.
Saying 'he was weakened to an unknown degree' is not sufficient evidence.
There isn't enough evidence to even suggest that the attacks Matatabi used on him are even High 6-C+.
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Kakazu losing to the jonins are more than enough for that since they couldn't do shit to him when he was alive but the moment he was in Edo they managed to hurt him so it was already showed his durability dropped
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They already showed matabai being that strong to so this is ad nauseam
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Are you telling me mind hax, the ability to follow the movements of opponents even faster than you, being able to see chakra and all those nifty other abilities don't make you stronger? It's gotta be AP? I sure remember that AP boost Sasuke got when he awakened his third tomoe agaisnt Naru- Oh wait, he got no AP boost. He could see Naruto's movements because his sharigan ABILITIES got stronger, so he could easily counteract his assault with his higher taijutsu skills.
... Yeah, i just lost all interest in this discussion. Madara absorbed Hashirama's Sage chakra AFTER being revived, literally on the chapter right after the image you linked of Madara saying he could finally battle at Full Strength. He gets his armor off because of Sasuke's Amaterasu, bats Naruto out of the way and absorbs the chakra from Hashirama, and you see his face marks appear in Madara's chest face. But you either just forgot that or tried twisting that to suit your point. Whichever it is, it's putting your actual comprehension of Naruto into doubt.
You have proved literally nothing, you have just reminded everyone of the fact that yes, Edo are nerfed. But not so much you literally drop down many tiers. But hey, is not like we saw Hiruzen and Minato who we have clearly seen while alive, and is not like the remained on the same tier they were in while alive just weaker and not a whole couplet tiers down, but what do I know?
... Yeah, i just lost all interest in this discussion. Madara absorbed Hashirama's Sage chakra AFTER being revived, literally on the chapter right after the image you linked of Madara saying he could finally battle at Full Strength. He gets his armor off because of Sasuke's Amaterasu, bats Naruto out of the way and absorbs the chakra from Hashirama, and you see his face marks appear in Madara's chest face. But you either just forgot that or tried twisting that to suit your point. Whichever it is, it's putting your actual comprehension of Naruto into doubt.
You have proved literally nothing, you have just reminded everyone of the fact that yes, Edo are nerfed. But not so much you literally drop down many tiers. But hey, is not like we saw Hiruzen and Minato who we have clearly seen while alive, and is not like the remained on the same tier they were in while alive just weaker and not a whole couplet tiers down, but what do I know?
@Damage3245 these arguments have already been responded to and refuted multiple times and this is clearly becoming ad nauseam on your end. Check #40 on the fallacy page https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Fallacy
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Claiming fallacy for pointing out your arguments are insufficient is not a fallacy, just find better evidence.
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I apologize if I appear to be repeating myself; but it's only because my arguments haven't been satisfactorily answered despite what you think.JaJasBizarreAdventure said:
This attempt at an upgrade isn't based on enough evidence.
Saying that Matatabi's paw strike on Kukaku is comparable to a charged Biju Bomb - without any evidence supporting it - is a massive assumption.
It would put Kukaku above the likes of Itachi, Nagato, and even Madara Uchiha.
More evidence is needed to justify such an outlier.
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I'm exceptionally confused here.
Kakuzu and Hidan are a pair known for their 'immortality' due to their non-conventional Jutsu methods of fighting, Kakuzu via utilizing all 4 basic Elemental Release Jutsu masks to hard-counter his foes, Hidan via his Durability-negating self-harm Jutsu.
To the best of my recollection, we never get a feat of Kakuzu 1v1'ing a Tailed Beast, which would be the requirement for scaling him directly to such a creature.
Further still, he is a Hax user who has to be killed several times over to be put down, and again, is always seen as being paired with a durability-negating Hax user (Hidan).
If we can produce feats of Kakuzu physically striking and harming a Tailed Beast in combat without his or Hidan's Hax, then yes absolutely his AP needs to be increased ASAP.
If we cannot produce such feats, this is just your typical shonen Hax users combo'ing to beat superior opponents with their uncanny and unique fighting styles to catch foes offguard.
Or am I entirely missing blatant feats in my recollection?
Kakuzu and Hidan are a pair known for their 'immortality' due to their non-conventional Jutsu methods of fighting, Kakuzu via utilizing all 4 basic Elemental Release Jutsu masks to hard-counter his foes, Hidan via his Durability-negating self-harm Jutsu.
To the best of my recollection, we never get a feat of Kakuzu 1v1'ing a Tailed Beast, which would be the requirement for scaling him directly to such a creature.
Further still, he is a Hax user who has to be killed several times over to be put down, and again, is always seen as being paired with a durability-negating Hax user (Hidan).
If we can produce feats of Kakuzu physically striking and harming a Tailed Beast in combat without his or Hidan's Hax, then yes absolutely his AP needs to be increased ASAP.
If we cannot produce such feats, this is just your typical shonen Hax users combo'ing to beat superior opponents with their uncanny and unique fighting styles to catch foes offguard.
Or am I entirely missing blatant feats in my recollection?
@LSirLancelotDuLacl you're repeating many arguments as well. You acknowledging the Edo Tensei gives a nerf is enough, there is no need for quantification as the feats themselves prove it. @Damage3245 Your arguments have been properly refuted and it was already proven in this thread that the Bijuu bombs should scale to their normal AP and Durability. Also there is nothing wrong with Kakuzu scaling physically above Itachi, Nagato, or Blind Madara (as they needed durability negation to defeat him).
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Everything has already been responded too
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Kakuzu does scale to the feat, so this is literally ad nauseam
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Considering he was being matched by people decidedly not High 6-C in the match that killed him, not really.
There's also him losing to people around the 7-C range when he's an edo and claims of "edo nerfs characters". But we have other characters who remain in the tier they were while alive, except for some exceptions that have their own context, while Kakuzu would need to drop 4-5 tiers for this to make sense.
There's also him losing to people around the 7-C range when he's an edo and claims of "edo nerfs characters". But we have other characters who remain in the tier they were while alive, except for some exceptions that have their own context, while Kakuzu would need to drop 4-5 tiers for this to make sense.
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This was already discussed in this thread btw: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1779084
Where it was decided that Kakuzu is definitely not High 6-C.
So we're retreading old ground.
Where it was decided that Kakuzu is definitely not High 6-C.
So we're retreading old ground.
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@Jaja What you say is nonsensical though. We have seen the Edo nerf, characters remain in their very same tier even if weaker. Kakuzu isn't a special super weapon and there's no reason he'd be any different, yet by your proposal he'd go from High 6-C to 7-C with this nerf. I am incredibly confused I even need to point this out, or how he was still defeated by people way below High 6-C and not because of some nebulous hax.
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This reasoning has been debunked numerous times already. If the only argument you have left is to repeat defeated positions then you can safely be ignored. Once you make an actual argument it will earn a new debunk.LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
The thread that was closed was the thread that I was in that Unite my Rice closed. Unite my Rice had his mod status removed and was banned for amongst other things bragging about closing threads he knew he was wrong on in discord server.
If you actually read that thread you'll see him just closing the thread after losing to me in that debate and not giving me a chance to respond. So that is a terrible argument.
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You repeating the same points and just saying I am debunked is not debunking and I'll never understand how such bad logic works. You haven't explained any of that, not satisfactorily.
And I did read the thread, Golden Void neatly answered a lot of your points very well, plus other mods and generally trustful users like IMade and Stone Orc agreeing. Whoever closed the thread doesn't matter a bit.
And I did read the thread, Golden Void neatly answered a lot of your points very well, plus other mods and generally trustful users like IMade and Stone Orc agreeing. Whoever closed the thread doesn't matter a bit.
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Kakuzu has no feats of physically harming a Tailed Beast.
And one questionable feat of blocking a physical strike from a Tailed Beast.
That is not enough to justify an outlier when Kakuzu has been hurt by much weaker characters.
And one questionable feat of blocking a physical strike from a Tailed Beast.
That is not enough to justify an outlier when Kakuzu has been hurt by much weaker characters.
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Golden Void is Unite my Rice for the record.
Again ad nauseum once you guys have actual arguments they will earn new responses. Until then the changes go through. I'm not going to waste my time repeating everything to you because you want to continue being dishonest.
Again ad nauseum once you guys have actual arguments they will earn new responses. Until then the changes go through. I'm not going to waste my time repeating everything to you because you want to continue being dishonest.
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You alone don't have the authority to make the changes go through. The changes need to be reasonable and have staff approval, and there are still glaring issues with the proposed changes.
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Thankfully, that's not how this wiki works nor how disputing proof works in any debate-based setting.Webcamparrot said:
Making baseless assertions to try and handwave fatal argumentation against your point isn't a tactic, it's flailing about helplessly in the hopes that your lack of a point goes unnoticed.
You cannot assail the point of Kakuzu having zero physical feats against Tailed Beasts.
You cannot refute the point of The Zombie Combo utilizing almost solely Hax to beat their opponents.
You cannot refute the evidence given of Kakuzu being thrashed by ninja vastly inferior to what you claim he scales to.
You have no point to make anymore, really, and it's the second thread to make that clear apparently.
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Actually that is exactly how debate based proof works and is exactly how changes are carried out on this site. That's why the site literally has a rule on fallacies.
Do you think points can just be repeated over and over and over and over when they already have valid debunks that have no been responded to? If you do i'm sorry you are that ignorant lol. Please actually learn basic Hegelian dialectics before you try to engage in them dishonestly like you are now.
Do you think points can just be repeated over and over and over and over when they already have valid debunks that have no been responded to? If you do i'm sorry you are that ignorant lol. Please actually learn basic Hegelian dialectics before you try to engage in them dishonestly like you are now.
@Xulrev your situation is a bit more understandable since you've just came to the thread, but literally all of those points have been properly refuted.
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This is....an underwhelmingly vapid retort. If you actually studied debate you'd know just how much of a non-sequitur and ad hominem this is, since it's about as substantive as your contributions thus far.Webcamparrot said:
Simply refusing to accept proof that debunks you is what is truly dishonest, and making an unfounded assertion that you're correct and all those disagreeing are naysayers for no reason other than to naysay is pretty highfalutin and a bit offensive.
I'd insist on any refutation of the points I bring.
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Yeah, I definitely think it is consistent for Kakuzu to scale to the Bijuu, all of the contradictions people tried detailing in the thread were refuted, basically in the OP, but were refuted even further in the actual thread. I can't believe that the old thread about this topic was attempted to be used as an actual point as if half of the points brought up in this thread were brought up in there. The thread was also abruptly closed by a corrupt ex-mod before Parrot got out another response.
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Why are you trying to contribute a counter to a Naruto AP thread when you don't even know basic lore of the verse? It's stated verbatim in Databook 3 that Kakuzu failed and the whole reason he learned all those forbidden jutsus and left the hidden waterfall was because of his failure to beat Hashirama. In fact, it's stated he barely made it out alive.Elizhaa said:
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