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Kaguya Ōtsutsuki vs Goku And Vegeta (Frieza Saga)

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@Hellergott DB characters enhance their attacks with Ki to do this

Lifting Strength does not equal Striking Strength otherwise a LOT of characters would get downgraded

And Kaguya has shown that she tends to follow them around in the space times, Only reason she bfr'd Sasuke was because of the seal Even if she did BFR them to the lava space time they can fly plus either one can 1 shot her
 
@PaChi so u are just going to vote for them via AP and ignore her hax.. alright.

And I also mentioned that the reason she followed them in the first place was to take their chakra nothing more or less. She has already been seen capable of BFR simply by what she did to Sasuke. Wit speed equalized I dont see them touching her.

Edit: in fact she was going to BFR Obito, Kakashi and Sakura if it was not for Obitos Kamui.
 
Her AKB can be dodged by them fairly easily

And even then she's completely unable to overpower them in any way especially if Goku starts using Kaioken

And even more so they both have ways to one shot her without exerting much via TK(Vegeta' Dirty Fireworks, and Goku's eye TK)

Before she even summons a portal she gets blown up
 
Except that you forgot she can freeze them in place before using AKB. And with equal speed she will be able to summon a portal before being blown up. Also she has genjutsu, which as far as I know they do not have resistance to.
 
Her paralayzation requires touching them

And it's not them trying to Fly at her and punch her but literally staring at her and she blows up so even then paralyzing them wouldn't help when they don't even have to move a muscle
 
how would Goku staring at her blow here up???

She has limited perognition so she can see the Dirty fireworks coming especially when he points at them to use it. And I dont mean paralysis I mean freezing them in the frozen dimension that she has. Just like she did to Sasuke and Naruto.

Also thanks for reminding me about her Paralysis which can be used via her portal and Vegeta def has to move to use dirty fireworks.
 
@Rocker

I dont like this match and I dont have the time, so Im not giving s full answer as to why any of Kaguya's advantages wont work on Goku and Vegeta.
 
Her limited precognition only works on body movement, not what ability is going to happen. Something like the dirty fireworks can't be seen by the sharingan since it's a telekinetic attack, and all she's going to see is just vegeta pointing his fingers at her.
 
Issue is the sharingan can see chakra flow so she will be able to see what he is planning on doing despite not know what it is via verse equlisation.
 
Does the telekinesis not require ki? As far as I know all of dragon ball attacks that are beyond punches and kicks require ki. Also I meant she would know he is doing an attack through the flow of ki not read his mind. And finally does he even use it in character against others of the similar strength? As far as I know he has only used it on Krillin who was faar below his level.
 
He's never used it on krillin. He did it on a saibaman and Cui. Who are weaker than vegeta, which is what Kaguya is. Also yes, not everything db characters do is ki-based.
 
There's no assumption since it's just telekinesis. Nothing's ki-based about that. And even if it was, Kaguya would explode the moment she sees what's happening.
 
Rocker1189 said:
how would Goku staring at her blow here up???

She has limited perognition so she can see the Dirty fireworks coming especially when he points at them to use it. And I dont mean paralysis I mean freezing them in the frozen dimension that she has. Just like she did to Sasuke and Naruto.

Also thanks for reminding me about her Paralysis which can be used via her portal and Vegeta def has to move to use dirty fireworks.
Click to expand...
Goku has used telekensis with only his eyes before like when he made a burial site for Vegeta, there's nothing to say that Vegeta can't do it either

And if she's in range of touching them, she's in range to be attacked and countered

How would freezing them help, when they could break free by charging their ki?
 
At the end you still have not answered about.

1. Can they resist genjutsu? if not Kaguya for sure

2. In characxter will he use that first?

3. Can they resist BFR, if not Kaguya for sure.

4. Can they resist freezing? If not Kaguya for sure.
 
@Hst master, they can not break free if they have not noticed they are frozen and like I said she also has genjutsu which will completely mess them up.
 
Vegeta uses his fingers when he just wants to get it over with, which is most likely since Kaguya is fodder to him.
 
She only did not use it because both Sasuke and Naruot have massive resistance to it, it would have been a futile effort.
 
There's nothing that suggests that Naruto is resistant to genjutsu, otherwise it would've been in his profile already.
 
How would they not notice they're frozen?

Like Glass said Goku might not start off with TK but Vegeta can when it's fodder to him

No they can't resist Genjutsu but it's essentially their glare which is lethal against hers which isn't

It hasn't been shown in character to simply BFR someome she's fighting

Her opponents at the time were Sasuke and Naruto who she only bfr'd in fear of being sealed and to successfully kill the other not Kakashi and co.

Even when she teleported them to the Lava space time she stayed when she could've simply left
 
Rocker1189 said:
At the end you still have not answered about.

1. Can they resist genjutsu? if not Kaguya for sure

2. In characxter will he use that first?

3. Can they resist BFR, if not Kaguya for sure.

4. Can they resist freezing? If not Kaguya for sure.
Click to expand...
1) IT, the only genjutsu we know she can use, needs the moon, guess who is very likely to blow it up if Kaguy starts IT? Yup, Vegeta and/or Goku.

-Kakarot! that woman is doing something funny with the moon!

-Gotcha!

And the moon turned to dust.

2) They do punch in chracter.

3) Kaguya wouldnt bfr in character and be done with it. She didnt bfr her children, she didnt bfr naruto or sasuke, it was all Black Zetsu's plan. For the record, I know she separated Sasuke from naruto, but ultimately she did that because of the seal, if BFR was something common for her why not let both of them bfr'd in some dimension?

4) Goku and Vegeta only need to slightly power up to break any ice Kaguya has for them. Hell, vegeta resists Absolute Zero in super, which is far, far colder than anything Kaguya has to offer.
 
Just want to point out Kaguya's ETSB ignores Conventional Durability. For that Reason, I give this to Kaguya.

  • Speed is equal + Kaguya has Precog, thus even with stronger AP, Goku and Vegeta will be hard pressed to actually tag her still.
  • Kaguya would be able to sense their energy and know she's outclassed, so, it's not like she'd attempt to tank their hits.
Honestly, you people are so quick jump to saying the winner is whoever has the higher AP that you rarely stop to consider Hax, especially in regards to Naruto. Goku and Vegeta have no response to:

  • Instant BFR
  • ETSB (Which is a One Shot)
  • Infinite Tsukuyomi (Which is a one shot).
Whereas Kaguya has responses to Their AP and Ki:

  • Precog for dodging
  • Absorbtion
"Skill" is relative. Kaguya could easily hang with Naruto who i could easily say is skilled enough to match Goku in h2h. Having more "Skill" in these regards here is a trope in and of itself, but of course,Kaguya's hax is gonna be ignored as usual.
 
Alright now this is getting sad.

1. Kaguya's "Genjutsu" is only the IT and she only uses that to create a Zetsu Army... Not to use it on a two person.

2. That weak BFR argument... She has to grab them and pull them into her Dimension but considering they are vastly stronger than her they would easily over power her with no effort. Also DBZ characters use ki to sense opponents so if she opens a portal behind them they will sense her and easily dodge or spin around and blast her.

3. The whole AKB's to the face argument... She never opened a portal right in someone's face before. She's less likely to do that and she likely wouldn't have the time considering they will be flying around shooting ki blasts or be up in their face most of the time.

4. Lol to the she'll "BFR them to the Lava Dimension"... They can fly... And create Forcefields...

5. The Ice Dimension is a valid argument but even while standing still they can force their ki so they can destroy the ice with not much effort.
 
In super, this is not super, this is Frieza Saga. They were not bfrd because like I said she needed to absorb their chakra and like i said again, she indeed bfr Kakashi and would have done so to Obito and Sakura if not for the Kamui.

2) reread what I said in 2.

The It really does not need long, by the time they realise what is happening they are under genjutsu.

I guess you missed the fact that jinchuriki are resistant to genjutsu by nature and Naruto was the Jinchuriki of 9 tailed beasts at the time.I think peopelk forgot that for some reason.
 
The Absorption argument is null, she cannot absorb their level of energy and to say she can is a NLF.
 
@LordGriffin

1.)There is no correlation between Kaguya initially using IT on people and them turning into WZ in prep for other Otsutsuki. While IT does turn people into WZ, it's baseless to assume that was her only reason, so no, your argument here is void on grounds you're assuming Kaguya's actions on 2 separate occasions are related with no proof. Bring scans to refresh my memory if I've forgotten, but otherwise, no.

2.)Kaguya doesn't need to BFR them via touch, she can shift dimensions and leave.

3.)Still no response to the ETSB?
 
What does Naruto being a jinchuriki have to do with now?

So you're saying they can force themselves out of mountains with their ki, but not Ice?

She hasn't used bfr in character for a normal battle, like PaChi said

-She didn't Bfr Hagoromo and Hamura -She didn't bfr Sauske until Zetsu told her to

In character without Black Zetsu she's never bfr'd

@Final They can destroy the ETSB and wouldn't be desperate to even use that?

IT requires a moon be present and Ive seem no moon to be present inher space times

Its not that her hax is being ignored its

1. How is she gonna bfr them or even sneak up on them when they can sense her coming and overpower her

2. Don't need to expel physical attacks to kill her(Telekinesis)

3. Her only genjutsu has situational requirements

4. She can't tag them with her only sure fire hax, but they can tag her

5. Is combat wise a terrible fighter compared to 2 genuises who in H2H could easily outmanuver and kill her with a single solid tap
 
Classic vsbw debating

And all you people assume Hax takes all and forget what the characters are capable of with their AP.
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
The Absorption argument is null, she cannot absorb their level of energy and to say she can is a NLF.
Click to expand...
False, People with Rinnegan can absorb and attack simultaneously with enough training and skill. True, she couldn't absorb it all if she just tried to pool it with her own, the same can't be said for using Chakra control to route the energy through an attack, same logic behind Iroh's redirection of lightning from avatar.
 
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