Just a Toy X Just a Dog (Buzz x Denji)

[noninho]

1.

I meant for you to get a calc for Powy's feat, since we don't know how much force is used for it to be done. Bears are impressive, but how much was the bear(s) Powy could kill?
Until that, baseline Wall level (since she scales to a random bear and an unknown level of a feat, but undeniably scales for it, that's the standard), which Buzz scales higher via...being higher than baseline.

2. Except once again, I've also said this like 5 times, Denji isn't going to get knocked out from a blow less than half as strong as Power's durability

You're saying that with no support for it again and again, and I'm saying how will you get that support again and again.

Buzz will also need to aim straight for the face, which is unlikely considering Denji can just, you know, DODGE?

Denji's Unknown speed is equalized to Buzz's, and the rocket is faster than both OR the 3 i mentioned are subsonic. Neither is an easy dodge and Base Denji isn't particularly known for his speed or anything like that (again, his speed is unknown)

or BLOCK IT?

As he could also try with what got his Durability, but still wouldn't just go as nothing happened if he manages to block it, since, well, it's a hit strong enough for him to get knocked out, so if it hits idk his arm, would still be bad, but again, if he can (via probably speed of the rocket and buzz using it strategically)

Like what do you think Denji's gonna just sit there staring lovingly into Buzz's plastic spray painted eyes while he shoves a rocket up his nose?

Nah, just that Buzz is also a skilled fella, so he'd use that good on Denji (even if not on the head, imagine a hit that can make you get knocked out hits you on your knee or your elbow? Would still be possible for Denji to get his Axe but for sure not attack with the same ease, and again Buzz lasers him to death)

Also, once again, if Denji DOES get knocked out, the impact, once again, isn't strong enough to actually hurt him, and once Buzz keeps attacking, he'll just wake up and retaliate

C'mon, I've got the calc right below of this argument and we've seen the bat devil fight (or at least I'm sure I've pointed out enough that we're dealing with a force, via this site's comprehension, HIGHER than what got him in that state).

I also don't know why you think the Bat Devil is at all relevant in this argument, considering the Bat Devil is High 8C

By the argument I'm presenting, it's relevant for the reference of what happened right on the start of the fight...and for the point I'm bringing, Bat Devil hasn't hit Denji not even once on a relevant way. Why you're making me repeat everything again and again?

3. It's entirely out of character for Buzz to just laser Denji in the face. He's going to start punching him, which won't even do anything due to Denji's dura, and his lasers do just as much as his punches, which is still nothing

Even if you're right and Buzz doesn't laser him, I've still pointed out that Denji cannot do enough for Buzz to get killed, and that yes, Buzz's hits matter, laser or punches.

My guy at the end of the day after Rocket Ruckus accomplishes what it's meant to do, which is to say absolutely nothing

?

you're comparing a 9C 5 inch tall toy to a 9B guy with a fire axe

That just hits him with a 9B rocket higher than his Dura and gets him crippled enough for him to get killed by some 9C hits.
It's simple: his resistance downscales, until now, from 15kJ, he gets hit by 22kJ, and you're saying that it takes a looooooot more damage for him to die. Riiiiiiight.
Let's say 25kJ is enough for him to get killed, ok? OK, then 25-22=3kJ left. If Buzz gets baseline Street level and we say per second his laser do this level of force, baseline is 300J so it needs 10s of laser (if he gets crippled, easily done) or 10 punches (if what you're saying is true and he punches Denji) which IMO is pretty plausible if we consider any strategical hit with Rocket Ruckus

which Denji scales several times above

Head canon, not going to repeat myself.

Denji's durability is still more than enough to facetank anything that isn't Rocket Ruckus, especially considering that even the lowest end of 9B

I've answered to that above

is still several times stronger than the lowest end 9C

But after the Rocket Ruckus is not needed that much for him to die, I've said more about it right above.

which ngl I don't even know why Buzz scales to, Buzz's only feat in terms of durability is downscaled from Zurg who has a 10B calc, and surviving getting stomped by regular humans by virtue of, once again for the millionth time, being a PLASTIC TOY

Idk what you're saying here since there's a lot of Magic sheninigans in KH and we only use the same TS statistics for what we don't have information on KH3 about them. How ******* ironic is that I'm saying he's not just a toy omegalul

Except Chainsaw Man doesn't, so the analogy doesn't work. I apologize for choosing to die on this hill, but you'd be surprised how differently the fight would go if that were the case

If you understood what I meant, then the analogy literally works.
Oh yes, it would be way harder to argue for Denji, but that's derailing.

Power knocking out Denji was before Denji received training from anybody

Ain't that his key like at all?

Even before this feat, he could take hits from and harm Aki, who's High 8C

Yeah but that still means he's only downscaling on an unknown level. Completely example and not based on anything, just an example: "Ben 10 took punches from 6-C Vilgax. That same Ben 10 got knocked out from 7-B Gwen Tennyson punching his nose." In that example, despite Ben having "feat < 6-C" he doesn't scale to that for having another thing, "feat < 7-B". We can call this Ben and Denji "impressive guys but downscaling to x", in Denji's case, downscaling to 9B even tho "enduring high 8-c" happens.

and during his training arc against Kishibe alongside Power, Human Denji is seen and treated as Power's equal. It was also pretty obvious that Denji getting knocked out that way was plot induced stupidity, as all of his feats, even as a human, far surpass this one instance.

All of this can be corrected if an approved CRT puts a similar sentence right after the Powy thing (ie: Wall level (Withstood attacks from Aki, a trained Devil Hunter. Survived a hit to the back of his head from Power, a Blood Fiend that could rip apart bears, but was knocked out. Surpassed Power after training with Kishibe))
but imo its easier to have another key for training or actually changing the level would be plausible
(ie: Wall level (Withstood attacks from Aki, a trained Devil Hunter. Survived a hit to the back of his head from Power, a Blood Fiend that could rip apart bears, but was knocked out), Wall level+ with training (eventually surpassed Power after training with Kishibe)

Of those 3, I really see another key as more plausible and cool (since if we say "X vs pre-training Denji" people will argue OP is making the fight unfair, although they really have some little differences)
Still, needs a CRT to stop being a head canon, ant that was aaaaaaaaaaall a huge derailing

At the end of the day, this fight depends on how much damage Rocket Ruckus will do.
You're arguing that it will knock him out
I disagree

To me the argumentation phase only stands while we argument why and how Buzz don't hit the head, cuz if he does, noone can argue Denji doesn't get knocked out and then killed.
But if he's just given a handicap like this huge hit on his knee or his elbow, then we would need to argue how Buzz deals with handicapped Denji and vice-versa
And to that I'm absolutely inclined to say Buzz wins too.

 

[Mickey1940]

dear god why is this so long

I'll respond to this when I have time

 

[Mickey1940]

ok here we go
In the future, plz keep your responses at least a tad bit more condensed

1. Even smaller, 4 to 5 foot tall bears can apparently survive car crashes according to their profile and get up after. Most if not all adult bears can survive fights with each other, and survive hits from bullets and bulls. The bear that Power fought was actually massive in comparison, and she basically tore it in half.

2. read #1

3. sure, I can concede on this point

4. read #1. Any hit that isn't straight to the face wouldn't really accomplish anything

5. Any hit not straight to the face, Denji will ignore the pain via Supernatural Willpower and fight back. For any other part of his body, the rocket isn't strong enough to break any bones, even assuming Denji is weaker than it. Power wasn't able to crack his skull open despite hitting him head-on, something 50% stronger (assuming Power's baseline which is 15 kj, which is false but it's just an assumption) shouldn't make much of a difference

6. your calc doesn't make any sense because once again you're assuming that Denji's a video game boss with a health bar. The Sleeping Dragon in Elden Ring can be killed by beginner players and speedrunners, but only after 15 minutes worth of smacking it over and over for 1 damage. The dragon takes no noticeable damage until it finally dies, in which it spontaneously explodes into thousands of runes. Is the player magically as strong as the dragon? No, if this was in real life the Dragon would be unharmed since the damage would accomplish jack shit and bounce off its hide. Buzz simply blasting him with lasers wouldn't cause any damage to begin with due to the aforementioned analogy, so he can't accumulate damage like you're describing here.

7. The Bat Devil, a High 8C, crushed his ribs and potentially the rest of his body, and then proceeded to slam him straight through a wall, and he still had enough stamina to jump 15 feet into the air and latch onto the Bat Devil. I don't think Buzz can really replicate that much damage on Denji's body

8. If Denji wakes up from any of his punches or lasers (which is likely since he was already awake by the time Power dragged him into the house, so any stimulus on top of that will surely wake him up earlier), Denji will start swinging, and if he touches Buzz at all, Buzz dies

9. read #1. The rocket can't do enough damage to cripple Denji like how you describe

10. read #9
also it takes an AP value of x7 to actually 1 shot someone. Even something 50-60% stronger than someone can't cripple Denji whatsoever. And once again, your calc doesn't make any sense due to #6

11. I'm pretty sure Denji scales several times above a literal toy who's only feat without Rocket Ruckus is harming other toys

12. Read #1, #9, and #10

13. Read #1, #6, and #10

14. His profile says otherwise, so make a CRT

15. Read #6

16. no not really. His key is a mish-mash of different feats from before and after training, and it's made pretty clear that Denji's stronger and smarter after training
ok no that's a lie, Denji's still a boob-crazed moron, but at least in terms of battle skill he's smarter

17. The issue is, Power's 9B rating scales to punching Base Katana Man in the face, who could take hits from Aki, who's High 8C. In your scenario, Gwen's profile is accurate. In Power's case, pretty much half of Chainsaw Man requires a CRT
even without the inaccuracies, Denji took a massive beating from Aki in Season 2, then proceeded to get right back up and kick Aki in the nuts
twice
so I think "enduring High 8C" is too much of a downgrade

18. I agree that a new key should be a new thing

19. In my opinion, based on all of my evidence, Buzz can't knock out Denji with Rocket Ruckus since Denji scales above that due to #1. Even if you assume Denji gets knocked out, he isn't handicapped due to #5. Even if you assume that Denji is crippled, he still wins due to #8.

 

[noninho]

dear god why is this so long

I'll respond to this when I have time

Literally me but I won't concede lol

Sorry, it took a while to have all time needed for your answer

 

[noninho]

1. Even smaller, 4 to 5 foot tall bears can apparently survive car crashes according to their profile and get up after. Most if not all adult bears can survive fights with each other, and survive hits from bullets and bulls. The bear that Power fought was actually massive in comparison, and she basically tore it in half.

Please stop with head canons. I can't even tell if there's any argument of yours that I didn't respond like that all the time or that after I responded with that+an argument, you started saying something that can really alter this fight.
Imma ignore points regarding this or reforming the profile from now on and for the last time...

2. read #1

No

4. read #1. Any hit that isn't straight to the face wouldn't really accomplish anything

What the actual ****? Read the argument below and remember Buzz is a good strategist (unless you're saying TS and KH3 don't have enough feats for that, which, I mean...)

5. Any hit not straight to the face, Denji will ignore the pain via Supernatural Willpower and fight back. For any other part of his body, the rocket isn't strong enough to break any bones, even assuming Denji is weaker than it.

Supernatural Willpower can be an Immense Pain Tolerance, but is kind of delayed since he has to get that "anime bs moment" to build it up. Also, you can argue that it's not 100% that Buzz would break his bones, yes, but twisting, elbows or knees, is also a thing and that's something that even if he ignores the pain, he cannot ignore the handicap (also, remember there are bones harder than others). What I think would happen is like: Denji blocked his face with his arms? The rocket hits right in the middle of the block and explodes causing, if not both, one of his arms to get twisted, and now his usage of the axe is negged at all, or in his dominant arm, the right one, so it is capped and Denji isn't efficient enough anymore to kill Buzz. Aaaaaaand i really think the rocket is faster than both of them and Buzz can and will get his face or the back of his head.

6. your calc doesn't make any sense because once again you're assuming that Denji's a video game boss with a health bar. The Sleeping Dragon in Elden Ring can be killed by beginner players and speedrunners, but only after 15 minutes worth of smacking it over and over for 1 damage. The dragon takes no noticeable damage until it finally dies, in which it spontaneously explodes into thousands of runes. Is the player magically as strong as the dragon? No, if this was in real life the Dragon would be unharmed since the damage would accomplish jack shit and bounce off its hide.

Now you're the one assuming. If we go for that health bar logic, I can use this thing to prove to you Buzz is doing way more than 1 damage point. What I was saying is that is kinda subjective in this site how many force is needed to kill things, and those calcs i made for him to get some damage or 15kJ, proves that he can and will **** Denji while he's in a bad position. The thing is: after 22kJ damage enters a guy who resists 15kJ, how much more energy is needed for him to die?

Buzz simply blasting him with lasers wouldn't cause any damage to begin with due to the aforementioned analogy, so he can't accumulate damage like you're describing here.

Yes they will, it's like saying he won't feel a super ant bite or a super mosquito bite, lol

7. The Bat Devil, a High 8C, crushed his ribs and potentially the rest of his body, and then proceeded to slam him straight through a wall, and he still had enough stamina to jump 15 feet into the air and latch onto the Bat Devil. I don't think Buzz can really replicate that much damage on Denji's body

8. If Denji wakes up from any of his punches or lasers (which is likely since he was already awake by the time Power dragged him into the house, so any stimulus on top of that will surely wake him up earlier), Denji will start swinging, and if he touches Buzz at all, Buzz dies

You just gave me a better point, thank you!
We don't need to take bat devil's damage into account, look: how many minutes you think she needed to get dragged into a house (This, in 1:20, puts just a transition...lol the anime did him dirty here)? AND WORSE: HE WAS BLEEDING. That hit got him bleeding and knocked out for a long time, so a hit with higher force than that will get more than a regular bleeding and the knock out. Hell no, I'm now absolutely sure Denji dies, if not right because of the rocket, because of the lasers coming right afterwards.
Also, decide yourself, or the lasers don't matter or the lasers wake him up.

9. read #1. The rocket can't do enough damage to cripple Denji like how you describe

via his feat? Yes he can and will get ****** no matter where he gets hit by the rocket.

19. In my opinion, based on all of my evidence, Buzz can't knock out Denji with Rocket Ruckus since Denji scales above that due to #1. Even if you assume Denji gets knocked out, he isn't handicapped due to #5. Even if you assume that Denji is crippled, he still wins due to #8.

Everything negged. Thanks a whole lot for 8.

 

[Mickey1940]

Literally me but I won't concede lol

Sorry, it took a while to have all time needed for your answer

I'm not asking you to concede and I'm not trying to get mad at you, dw about it

 

[Mickey1940]

1. I'm literally basing all of what I said about bears off of the grizzly bear page on the wiki. I'm not a nature scientist, idk much about bears other than this. I don't know what else you want from me

2. skip

4. according to his profile he's not very intelligent, and I've never played KH3 so idk the extent of his strategic mind. Do you have any skill and exp feats to convince me otherwise?

5. It wasn't delayed against the zombies he fought before turning into a demon, and it wasn't delayed in all of his other Chainsaw Man fights, of which Base Denji still scles to.
If he blocks it with his arms and loses his arms (which is still unlikely due to the lack of AP), he can just kick Buzz with his dozens of times AP advantage

6. To answer your question, still a lot. Getting hit by an attack stronger than you doesn't immediately incapacitate someone, especially since that attack is less than 50% stronger than you. In other debates on this wiki, getting hit by attacks that much stronger than you is barely a cause for concern unless there are no other factors determining who will win. In this situation, the cause for concern is that all of Buzz's other attacks are paltry in comparison, and Denji can power through the attack and keep going
If you argue that Power knocked him out with similar force, Denji regained consciousness seconds after getting hit, then proceeded to get absolutely demolished by the Bat Devil, and still had enough energy to jump out the house and latch on to the Bat Devil. so even if he gets knocked unconscious, it would be a minor setback at best

6.5. read #6

7 an 8. It took him 30 seconds to wake up since he was awake by the time he was in the house
yeah he was bleeding, but other than that he wasn't really injured by Power's hit. Noone of his bones were broken
He wakes up on his own since Buzz's punches and lasers can't accomplish enough to kill him

9. read #6

 

[noninho]

1. I'm literally basing all of what I said about bears off of the grizzly bear page on the wiki. I'm not a nature scientist, idk much about bears other than this. I don't know what else you want from me

i've said it a couple times.

4. according to his profile he's not very intelligent, and I've never played KH3 so idk the extent of his strategic mind. Do you have any skill and exp feats to convince me otherwise?

well, there's his "training" (his programming as a toy includes all things a space-ranger from the cartoon the toy was based on) and everything he did in TS 1 and 2, since the game is said to be between TS2 and TS3. Also, he wasn't caught by the heartless (who captured most of Andy's toys, Andy himself and his mother, according to the wiki) and helped Sora fighting them multiple times.

5. It wasn't delayed against the zombies he fought before turning into a demon, and it wasn't delayed in all of his other Chainsaw Man fights, of which Base Denji still scles to.
If he blocks it with his arms and loses his arms (which is still unlikely due to the lack of AP), he can just kick Buzz with his dozens of times AP advantage

Yeah, but after seeing what Powy did to him and seeing he bleeded a lot, Buzz's hit to his head gets him ****** beyond that; He won't lose his arms like "they exploded with the rocket", just that Denji's elbows are now twisted and unusable...and for that, Buzz has more than enough AP to do. Also, he'll have a hard time hitting his kicks on an = speed buzz

6. To answer your question, still a lot. Getting hit by an attack stronger than you doesn't immediately incapacitate someone, especially since that attack is less than 50% stronger than you. In other debates on this wiki, getting hit by attacks that much stronger than you is barely a cause for concern unless there are no other factors determining who will win. In this situation, the cause for concern is that all of Buzz's other attacks are paltry in comparison, and Denji can power through the attack and keep going

no, he cannot. Power's hit got him bleeding and incapacitated for some minutes (aka time enough to get dragged about 50m) and Buzz's hit is not far from 1.5/50% (22/15= ~1.46666666 or 46.67%) which may have little chance of causing death itself, but incapping enough for buzz to finish him, for sure. Also, Buzz's other hits are 300J while the hit that knocked out and ****** Denji is 15kJ or 15000J, which means 50 punches from Buzz are the same as the hit that, again, knocked out and ****** Denji, so you can't say that they mean absolutelly nothing, specially when Denji was just hit by something worse than this hit.

7 an 8. It took him 30 seconds to wake up since he was awake by the time he was in the house
yeah he was bleeding, but other than that he wasn't really injured by Power's hit. Noone of his bones were broken
He wakes up on his own since Buzz's punches and lasers can't accomplish enough to kill him

it didn't take 30s to drag Denji into that house; what do you mean by looking at how much blood came out of Denji and the way he was just dragged and saying he wasn't really injured? also, if you apply that amout of damage to other body parts, like the elbow, for sure we can say it'd break; by the time he'd take to wake up, yes they would.

 

[Mickey1940]

1. Said what multiple times?
4. His programming is unknown, and the stuff he did in TS1 and 2 aren't exactly impressive, but it's been like a decade and a half since I watched Toy Story, so I'm not 100% sure on that. All I remember is the toys managed to outsmart the bully character, who's like 7
5. Power's hit still didn't break any of his bones. And you're still forgetting that all Denji needs is 1 attack to 1 shot Buzz. Despite equalized speed and smaller size, I don't think he's going to be able to kill Denji without getting hit at least once, unless he can use another Rocket Ruckus, which he can't
6. I could have sworn I typed out a response to this in my last comment. But looking back, I think it got deleted somehow. Oh well, here it is: Denji once again wouldn't be completely crippled from the rocket, even IF he does get knocked out, as the impact wouldn't break any bones and Denji usually ignores blood loss and extreme pain through supernatural willpower. His durability doesn't exactly go down after getting hit either, so I don't think Buzz will be able to kill him. Saying that he only needs 50 punches to output Denji's AP is, while technically tgrue, not actually how AP works. I can punch a pine 2 trillion times and output enough energy to blow up a building, but me punching a pine tree 2 million times, even assuming I never run out of stamina, isn't going to topple a pine tree since I'm not delivering that much damage in a single burst. This analogy works here. I admit that Buzz might EVENTUALLY kill Denji, but he will definitely need a tad bit more than just 50 punchers since damage output outside of video games isn't additive
7 and 8. I looked at the video and he had his eyes open when he was still on the floor iirc

 

[noninho]

1. Said what multiple times?

That you need a calc for Powy's feat, not any other thing. And that Denji for now Downscales to baseline Wall level so he'll get damaged by Buzz's lasers.

4. His programming is unknown, and the stuff he did in TS1 and 2 aren't exactly impressive, but it's been like a decade and a half since I watched Toy Story, so I'm not 100% sure on that.

Watch again, he's a good strategist.

5. Power's hit still didn't break any of his bones.

But it clearly knocked him out and ****** him, which could break a bone, depending on which bone.

 

[noninho]

Denji usually ignores blood loss and extreme pain through supernatural willpower.

But he'll get down because the hit is worst than Powy's one, so far.

I admit that Buzz might EVENTUALLY kill Denji, but he will definitely need a tad bit more than just 50 punchers since damage output outside of video games isn't additive

For sure it needs maybe even less than that, because, as I remember AGAIN, so far Powy's hit that got him ****** is 15kJ, so he needs way less than that+22kJ from the rocket to kill him, and that he for sure can get easily through his lasering.

7 and 8. I looked at the video and he had his eyes open when he was still on the floor iirc

Still couldn't do shit
...Unless you argue Denji is a ********* and would like to get his ribs broken and suck the demon's blood.
Not an argument

 

[Mickey1940]

1. you want me to calc the Chainsaw Man bear? A bear who's only screen time was getting torn in half by Power? How do you expect me to do that?
And why are you so insistent on not using scaling? The bear was visibly shown to be several times larger than Power to the extent that Power while sitting on it wasn't much bigger than its head, and by extension larger than the average bear, so wy are you so unwilling to accept that this bear was probably really strong for the species?

2. According to his profile, he has random "spurts" of unintelligence and intelligence alike. That's all I'm going off of. I don't have time to watch 4 hours worth of movies for the sake of this matchup

3. But at the end of the day it didn't crack his skull, It only knocked him out for a brief period of time.

4. And if you scale Power to bears, it's not. Even smaller, seemingly 4 feet tall bears can perform 9B feats and could survive car crashes and moose/bull charges, so bears that large should be more than capable of doing the same. I don't know why I need to keep repeating this information to you just because "i NeEd To CaLc ThE BeAr"

5. You literally completely ignored the "damage output outside of video games isn't additive" part of my argument

6. Great, more repeated information. He was still able to move after recovering from his mild concussion. Even after receiving said concussion, getting his entire body crushed, and slammed into a wall by a HIGH ******* 8C (Stronger than Power and Buzz's rocket!!!!!! in case you didn't realize), he still had enough stamina to jump through a ceiling and drink the Bat Devil's blood.


I apologize if anything I said sounds sarcastic since I'm not usually toxic during these debates, but tbh my patience is running thin. Please stop repeating information, and please stop forcing me to repeat information

 

[noninho]

I apologize if anything I said sounds sarcastic since I'm not usually toxic during these debates, but tbh my patience is running thin. Please stop repeating information, and please stop forcing me to repeat information

This debate became me and you repeating the infos
As power has no calc, so by this site's comprehension it's baseline, I started a thread on Q&A section to find out how much does this 46% higher for Buzz matters and depending on how much i may concede for Denji. I'm bumping there rn

 

[Mickey1940]

This debate became me and you repeating the infos
As power has no calc, so by this site's comprehension it's baseline, I started a thread on Q&A section to find out how much does this 46% higher for Buzz matters and depending on how much i may concede for Denji. I'm bumping there rn

And that's not now this site works

Power killed a ******* bear therefore she scales higher than the page for bears on this wiki. Considering the size of the bear, she scales to whatever levels of 9B most large bears are, which is above Moose and Bulls who are several times baseline 9B

 

[noninho]

Power killed a ******* bear therefore she scales higher than the page for bears on this wiki. Considering the size of the bear, she scales to whatever levels of 9B most large bears are, which is above Moose and Bulls who are several times baseline 9B

We agreed we're repeating ourselves, and imma not do this again.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Buzz fra

 

[noninho]

counted lol

 

[noninho]

bumping just in case anyone wants to FRA or try adding here