Just a small cleanup after the last cosmology revision for instant death.

[Dark_Soul20189]

In this thread, the cosmology was debunked, and in turn, CFE went from 4D, possibly 5D to 4A.

Higher-Dimensional Existence (4D, likely 5D; Exists beyond space-time and Celestial Foundation, it's free to move "up" and "down" in the void of the "Sea")

This ability was missed during the revision and should be removed since the structures it encompasses are no longer considered that size, as we can see on the profile.

This ability should be completely removed from the page due to this.

Agree - @The_golden_and_silver_house94, @Mr. Bambu, @Delta333, @SweetDao
Disagree - @GarrixianXD,
Neutral -

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

Fine

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Seems self-evident, it's fine to remove. You only need my approval to do this, but you still also need to wait 48 hours from thread start.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Seems self-evident, it's fine to remove. You only need my approval to do this, but you still also need to wait 48 hours from thread start.

Alright, but shouldn't it be 24 hours with this rule?

For content revision suggestions, generally, a standard grace period of 48 hours should be allowed for the reviewing staff members to evaluate and approve them. However, in the case of extremely blatant, self-evident revisions, a grace period of 24 hours is acceptable. Until this grace period has elapsed, since the time of the thread's creation, the revision should not be applied to the profiles.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Oh, you're right. 24 hours, then.

 

[SweetDao]

Yeah it's fine I missed that one

 

[GarrixianXD]

The Celestial Foundations was downgraded from tier 2 because its size is insignificant, and not because it isn't higher-dimensional or quantitatively transcends beyond the dimensions of base reality. You can still be 5-D without being Low 1-C; I disagree with this revision.

 

[SweetDao]

The Celestial Foundations was downgraded from tier 2 because its size is insignificant, and not because it isn't higher-dimensional or quantitatively transcends beyond the dimensions of base reality. You can still be 5-D without being Low 1-C; I disagree with this revision.

The thing is, by that logic, everyone traveling through the Sea also has HDE, which is blatantly false.

Like, are you saying the pirates that can attack the Celestial Foundation of Mitsuki from the outside with their cannons would have HDE 5D because they can travel through the Sea too?

 

[Delta333]

Agree with the downgrade, CFE simply exists outside of spacetime rather than occupying more axis than it.

 

[SweetDao]

CFE simply exists outside of spacetime rather than occupying more axis than it.

*Just outside the space of Celestial Foundations. As far as I'm aware, All Celestial Foundations share the same space-time, although some may have a different flow of time.

 

[GarrixianXD]

The thing is, by that logic, everyone traveling through the Sea also has HDE, which is blatantly false.

Like, are you saying the pirates that can attack the Celestial Foundation of Mitsuki from the outside with their cannons would have HDE 5D because they can travel through the Sea too?

No. That would be able to interact with higher-dimensional entities and travel beyond base reality, but it doesn't give you 5-D HDE. The CFE's 5-D HDE justification comes from its true form existing beyond space and time, being able to move through all axes of the void of the Sea implies he is unbounded by the conventional 4-D space-time, which does give a valid reasoning for HDE, as opposed to just residing outside of it. Though I see no scan for that ability which has been implemented there for a prolonged period, but you haven't discussed it before in the previous cosmology downgrade CRTs.

 

[SweetDao]

The CFE's 5-D HDE justification comes from its true form existing beyond space and time

Yes, but it's false. It's because people misinterpreted this scan saying the Celestial Foundation was conceptual as in "they have their own concept of space and time" which is clearly proven false not only within the story itself but even by author's statement:

The world, which is referred to as the Celestial Foundation, is covered by a boundary called the Canopy, and each Celestial Foundation is linked by a Celestial Axis. Such is the world.

Elements like the Celestial Foundation, the Canopy, and the Celestial Axis are conceptual, so it does not mean that they exist physically. There are some cases where they do exist that way, however.

In most of the worlds, the Celestial Axis also does not exist in a visible form.

Only those elements underlines are conceptual, with the Celestial Foundation being the plates where the worlds are "placed" upon.

being able to move through all axes of the void of the Sea implies he is unbounded by the conventional 4-D space-time, which does give a valid reasoning for HDE, as opposed to just residing there

The Sea is just a space between worlds, it's not even empty per say since it is filled with "Seawater", anyone with sufficient technology or strong enough can travel through it. Also, the whole "axes" thing is clearly exaggerated, they can go up and down, left and right, like in any other space in fiction.

Though I see no scan for that ability which has been implemented there for a prolonged period, but you haven't discussed it before in the previous cosmology downgrade CRTs.

Ngl, I thought killing the higher dimension tiering itself would directly render moot the HDE, but then I never thought about it extensively.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Yes, but it's false. It's because people misinterpreted this scan saying the Celestial Foundation was conceptual as in "they have their own concept of space and time" which is clearly proven false not only within the story itself but even by author's statement:

The Celestial Foundations are space-times nonetheless. Your OP also stated that they can be treated as pocket realities. Any structure that contains the Celestial Foundations physically with its spatial dimensions will be 5-D nonetheless.

The Sea is just a space between worlds, it's not even empty per say since it is filled with "Seawater", anyone with sufficient technology or strong enough can travel through it. Also, the whole "axes" thing is clearly exaggerated, they can go up and down, left and right, like in any other space in fiction.

I'm not sure how this is suppose to disqualify HDE for the CFE, as it seems that its true form transcends time and to have its origins rooted in the Sea, opposed to the humans of base reality who are of 3-D origins and can traverse into the 4th spatial axis through advanced technology. The Sea being a space between worlds as in a structure that contains worlds within itself is exact grounds for it being a 5-D structure. Anyone able to travel into that 4th spatial axis with technology would explain how they are able to harm the CFE's true form.

 

[Delta333]

The Sea being a space between worlds as in a structure that contains worlds within itself is exact grounds for it being a 5-D structure.

Traveling through 5-D space between dimensions has nothing to do with existing with the same amount of axes. This is literally what even a 3-D being can do.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Traveling through 5-D space between dimensions has nothing to do with existing with the same amount of axes. This is literally what even a 3-D being can do.

You're misinterpreting my arguments. I never argued that the CFE is 5-D merely because it traverses through a 5-D structure. And you're wrong, a 3-D being cannot interact with higher-dimensions by default.

 

[SweetDao]

The Celestial Foundations are space-times nonetheless. Your OP also stated that they can be treated as pocket realities. Any structure that contains the Celestial Foundations physically with its spatial dimensions will be 5-D nonetheless.

In the OP, I stated that they could be either be treated as pocket realities or spatial locations within the Sea, similar to how planets in our universe are separated, for example.

You're stating that any structure that contains the Celestial Foundations, so The Sea in this case, would be 5-D nonetheless. So, therefore, you're saying that anyone being from the Sea or above necessarily has HDE 5D right? Because else, your statement doesn't make much sense.

I'm not sure how this is suppose to disqualify HDE for the CFE, as it seems that its true form transcends time and to have its origins rooted in the Sea.

First, it's never stated that it "transcend space and time" in the novel, it was probably an assumption because "it lives and swim freely in the Sea".

The Sea being a space between worlds as in a structure that contains worlds within itself is exact grounds for it being a 5-D structure

It's a structure that houses anywhere near Tens of thousands of Celestial Foundation or countless more, with each Celestial Foundation being SS-sized at best. There is no proof that it needs an extension with another spatial axes, since the Sea being bigger than SS-sized is enough to cover that eventuality while still remaining 3D (or well 4D if you take into account time).

Anyone able to travel into that 4th spatial axis with technology would explain how they are able to harm the CFE's true form

EXCEPT, the 4th spatial axis we're talking about is The Abyss, something very distinct from the Sea and existing (for now) in only a single Celestial Foundation. There was NO STATEMENT whatsoever of anyone beside The Kings and Yogiri (to some very limited extent) being aware of it or interacting with it.

 

[Delta333]

a 3-D being cannot interact with higher-dimensions by default

They can, many 3-D being characters can interact with 5-D as long as they have sufficient range (like Blazblue characters with no HDE). Or an infinitesimal 1-D portion can exist in 2-D flat just fine.

 

[GarrixianXD]

In the OP, I stated that they could be either be treated as pocket realities or spatial locations within the Sea, similar to how planets in our universe are separated, for example.

Well, you better clear that up then. I don't see your OP involved in removing the Celestial Foundations as space-times, meaning the former is the case.

You're stating that any structure that contains the Celestial Foundations, so The Sea in this case, would be 5-D nonetheless. So, therefore, you're saying that anyone being from the Sea or above necessarily has HDE 5D right? Because else, your statement doesn't make much sense.

Yes.

First, it's never stated that it "transcend space and time" in the novel, it was probably an assumption because "it lives and swim freely in the Sea".

That scan makes it quite clear that the origin of those creatures came from the Sea. Perhaps HDE could be questioned if they aren't from the Sea, but there are quite convincing evidence and implications that they are.

It's a structure that houses anywhere near Tens of thousands of Celestial Foundation or countless more, with each Celestial Foundation being SS-sized at best. There is no proof that it needs an extension with another spatial axes, since the Sea being bigger than SS-sized is enough to cover that eventuality while still remaining 3D (or well 4D if you take into account time).

If the Celestial Foundations are space-times, they're they'll be 4-D structures. And encompassing 4-D structures exactly needs a 5-D construct, since you can't view space-times from a 3-D space, because a space-time contains an uncountable quantity of its 3-D equivalence through its 4-D spatial axis. An example here is that the CFE contains a solar system inside of it; since the CFE is space-time, its time axis will extend that solar system to an uncountable infinite amount of static snapshots/frames, with each snapshot/frame representing a single infinitesimal time coordinate. In other words, it contains an uncountable infinite amount of solar systems through its infinite time axis.

EXCEPT, the 4th spatial axis we're talking about is The Abyss, something very distinct from the Sea and existing (for now) in only a single Celestial Foundation. There was NO STATEMENT whatsoever of anyone beside The Kings and Yogiri (to some very limited extent) being aware of it or interacting with it.

Are you telling me that the Sea contains The Abyss? Which is something with a 4th spatial axis? I mean... I'm not knowledgeable in ID so I'm just going to deem this information redundant compared to my main points.

They can, many 3-D being characters can interact with 5-D as long as they have sufficient range (like Blazblue characters with no HDE). Or an infinitesimal 1-D portion can exist in 2-D flat just fine.

I did say by default. Any 3-D character who doesn't have demonstrations of interacting with higher-dimensions is automatically assumed to be unable to interact with higher-dimensions.

 

[SweetDao]

Well, you better clear that up then. I don't see your OP involved in removing the Celestial Foundations as space-times, meaning the former is the case.

At that time, I wasn't aware of certain stuff, mainly, these specific lines in the "Universe" page:

It should be recognized that travel between universes is not feasible unless through the use of a portal or similar unusual mechanisms. This is because it should be impossible for two distinct universes to be connected by a path that only goes through regular 3 dimensional space. Universes must be separated by something other than 3 dimensional distance or physical barriers, otherwise they would be considered to both be part of one large universe for our tiering purposes.

Without even mentioning, we're not talking about Universal structure here.

In any case, sure, at one point I'll try to clarify that.

Yes.

So, hypothetically, anything coming from a space greater or equal to The Sea would have HDE 5D too, right? When I mean anything, I mean it, from the biggest structure to the smallest atom.

That scan makes it quite clear that the origin of those creatures came from the Sea.

Yes, never argued against this.

Perhaps HDE could be questioned if they aren't from the Sea, but there are quite convincing evidence and implications that they are.

I mean, if think we're going on the wrong way here. What is the thing, the statement or anything, that makes you think the Sea is 5D in the first place?

If the Celestial Foundations are space-times, they're they'll be 4-D structures

Celestial Foundation are structures that share the same time axis as the Sea at the very least. There can be disruptions of flow rate between CF, but that's it.

And encompassing 4-D structures exactly needs a 5-D construct, since you can't view space-times from a 3-D space, because a space-time contains an uncountable quantity of its 3-D equivalence through its 4-D spatial axis. An example here is that the CFE contains a solar system inside of it; since the CFE is space-time, its time axis will extend that solar system to an uncountable infinite amount of static snapshots/frames, with each snapshot/frame representing a single infinitesimal time coordinate. In other words, it contains an uncountable infinite amount of solar systems through its infinite time axis.

I'm confused about what you said...

I'm fine why how you presented space-time, we're both well aware of it.

I think you used "CFE contains a solar system" instead of using "CF", otherwise I don't think it makes much sense? So I'll assume you just meant CF.

I agree with what you said, like your explanation is sound, 100%. However, it is only true IF each have their own time axis/temporal dimension, which is not the case.

The fact that two worlds can co-exist within the same Canopy and yet have different Celestial Foundation as a basis should be largely enough to show they aren't separated by some weird space-time stuff.

Are you telling me that the Sea contains The Abyss? Which is something with a 4th spatial axis? I mean... I'm not knowledgeable in ID so I'm just going to deem this information redundant compared to my main points.

=> Celestial Foundation of the Earth (Yogiri's homeworld)
=> Within it, there exist a dimension called the Abyss, which is stated to extend in another fourth dimension. (I don't remember the exact statement, but you get the idea)
=> The Celestial Foundation exist within the Sea.

I did say by default. Any 3-D character who doesn't have demonstrations of interacting with higher-dimensions is automatically assumed to be unable to interact with higher-dimensions.

Would there be problems if regular 3D beings can see the CFE? or perhaps that someone could physically grasp it using magic without it ever being stated to be higher dimensional?

 

[Delta333]

I did say by default. Any 3-D character who doesn't have demonstrations of interacting with higher-dimensions is automatically assumed to be unable to interact with higher-dimensions.

Meaning that a 3-D beings can interact with higher dimensions by feats. Here CFE is no different from your example, it’s just a normal being that demonstrates the ability to interact with higher dimension (assuming the sea is higher dimension) rather than being HDE.

 

[SweetDao]

Also, are we really going to say that the seawater within the Sea is 5D too?

 

[GarrixianXD]

At that time, I wasn't aware of certain stuff, mainly, these specific lines in the "Universe" page:

Without even mentioning, we're not talking about Universal structure here.

In any case, sure, at one point I'll try to clarify that.

That description should include pocket realities and space-times in general. Scientifically and mathematically, it wouldn't make sense for a 3-dimensional space to contain a 4-D space-time continuum.

So, hypothetically, anything coming from a space greater or equal to The Sea would have HDE 5D too, right? When I mean anything, I mean it, from the biggest structure to the smallest atom.

Yes.

What is the thing, the statement or anything, that makes you think the Sea is 5D in the first place?

The fact that it contains the Celestial Foundations, which are pocket realities, hence separate space-times.

Celestial Foundation are structures that share the same time axis as the Sea at the very least. There can be disruptions of flow rate between CF, but that's it.

If the Celestial Foundation shares the same time axis as the Sea then all of it would simply be a single 4-D space-time construct, which doesn't seem like it's the case, since the Celestial Foundations have been referred to as plural space-times. I don't recall your OP covering all of those structures being temporally connected to each other, do you mind pointing it out the argument?

I'm confused about what you said...

I'm fine why how you presented space-time, we're both well aware of it.

I think you used "CFE contains a solar system" instead of using "CF", otherwise I don't think it makes much sense? So I'll assume you just meant CF.

I agree with what you said, like your explanation is sound, 100%. However, it is only true IF each have their own time axis/temporal dimension, which is not the case.

The fact that two worlds can co-exist within the same Canopy and yet have different Celestial Foundation as a basis should be largely enough to show they aren't separated by some weird space-time stuff.

I meant CF, my bad. Like I said before, if the Celestial Foundation don't have its own time dimension then it wouldn't even be space-times in the first place. You can refer back to my previous question.

Would there be problems if regular 3D beings can see the CFE? or perhaps that someone could physically grasp it using magic without it ever being stated to be higher dimensional?

It depends. This isn't like 1-A where any interaction from lower-reality would be a disqualifier. If those regular 3-D beings were just simple mortals and no special abilities, then yeah, it would be anti-feats but it could also be dismissed as an outlier or PIS. As for the latter, no, because they used power and were displayed as exceptionally powerful compared to regular humans.

 

[SweetDao]

That description should include pocket realities and space-times in general. Scientifically and mathematically, it wouldn't make sense for a 3-dimensional space to contain a 4-D space-time continuum.

Indeed, but it would make sense for a 3D construct to exist within a bigger 3D structure.

Yes.

How would you reconcile a spaceship having 5D HDE crashing on a 3D Earth then?

The fact that it contains the Celestial Foundations, which are pocket realities, hence separate space-times.

If the Celestial Foundation shares the same time axis as the Sea then all of it would simply be a single 4-D space-time construct, which doesn't seem like it's the case, since the Celestial Foundations have been referred to as plural space-times. I don't recall your OP covering all of those structures being temporally connected to each other, do you mind pointing it out the argument?

I meant CF, my bad. Like I said before, if the Celestial Foundation don't have its own time dimension then it wouldn't even be space-times in the first place. You can refer back to my previous argument.

It is indeed what I'm trying to argue, that the Sea, including the CFs within it, is but a single large structure. Could you point where Celestial Foundations were referred as "plural space-times" ?

I didn't cover it in the OP, because it wasn't my intention at the moment, especially since I was hyperfocused to understand how the f*** parallel worlds works in that verse.

On the top of my head, it would be:

• People can travel between Celestial Foundations through physical means using spaceships, for example. (Although, I say "spaceship" but it's mostly referred as naval ship, Sea/Seawater and all you know)
• CF were never stated as separate space-time or other similar nomination, merely "other worlds".
• The destruction of a CF was never described as "time and space destroyed", merely the physical components of the world (buildings, people,...)
• Mitsuki being able to rewind the death of someone outside his CF when it was clearly stated his power stops at said CF.
• CF capable of colliding between each others and destroy themselves in the process
• The fact that even when a CFE eat a world, it is never ever mentioned that it destroys timelines or such.

On that later line, since it's quite peculiar. We would have to assume that since the CFE destroy a world by eating it, it destroys the whole space-time of said world, so not only the infinite snapshot, but also all divergent timelines. However, unless you want to argue that anyone capable of destroying a Celestial Foundation from outside, for example the pirates, have such firepower, I don't see how it's logical. Especially since those armaments are at best star level. (Being extremely lenient here)

If you need any scans for such claims, you can ask me, I just didn't bother putting them in since I'm quite sure not all of them would be relevant from your perspective.

It depends. This isn't like 1-A where any interaction from lower-reality would be a disqualifier. If those regular 3-D beings were just simple mortals and no special abilities, then yeah, it would be anti-feats but it could also be dismissed as an outlier or PIS. As for the latter, no, because they used power and were displayed as exceptionally powerful.

I mean, when a CFE tried to open a hole/widen a hole in a Celestial Foundation, people who aren't anything special could see it (and got scared, obviously), would that fit the bill? Also, the whole "outlier or PIS" is shaky to use right now, because from my perspective, I've yet to see the proof of The Sea being 5D.

On that, also, wouldn't there be a need for those dimensions to be fully-fledged? As in, universal?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Bump