Jujutsu Kaisen Speed Downgrade

[Wuke]

A.) That argument is completely separate to the blood attack one in OP.
B.) You used a low end figure from the rubber bullets of 1970 France. Modern Day life like Rubber bullet shooters (which typically are circular and not actual bullet-shaped like the one from the Maki feat from what I recall) can reach 100+ m/s

T4E SMITH & WESSON M&P9 M2.0 pistol Cal .43 - Jean Pierre Fusil

For shooting or self defense, thsi pistol shoots rubber balls in caliber .43, thanks to a CO2 cartridge.

www.fusil-calais.com

C.) Maki was intercepted by the shot while trying to attack someone else, and while strong isn't really some pinnacle of reactions in the verse.
D.) Jujutsu kaisen literally revolves around evolving mid fight to surpass difficulties that borderlines as a minor form of adaptive evolution and we've seen this multiple times from several characters in the series.

A. Correct
B.The bullet fired at Maki is NOT circular, so show me some statistics for those shaped like the bullet fired at Maki. Because real bullets are much faster than 100m/s
C.
She is tied for first reactions of any student, so yeah, her reactions should be pretty top tier
D. There is always emphasis put on that when it happens, and that doesn’t happen here

 

[Wuke]

Because the only rubber bullet she fired was at Nobara, when Gakuganji's orders were to kill Yuji, implying she actually does have a real bullet in there.

We don’t know that. It could be they think the rubber bullet could kill yuji, and even then she’d save it for yuji, not use it on maki lol

 

[Wuke]

And Viz can be wrong, so it doesn't matter.

This is some of the worst Golden Mean Fallacy use I've seen in my life. We're not going to compromise between versions. One version is wrong, so we throw it out.

I've never seen a verse say "it's made out of this, so we don't assume it's similar to ours".

If someone from another verse creates a moon with their energy system, we say it's moon level because we assume it's ~ our moon. We don't say "it's made out of energy", no. We say "it's a damn moon". That logic applies here.

But the difference is that she’s shown to have rubber bullets, and she’s not supposed to kill anyone besides yuji, so if she can only make one real bullet (assuming she even can) we know she wouldn’t fire it at maki

 

[Dr._whiteee]

A. Correct
B.The bullet fired at Maki is NOT circular, so show me some statistics for those shaped like the bullet fired at Maki. Because real bullets are much faster than 100m/s
C.
She is tied for first reactions of any student, so yeah, her reactions should be pretty top tier
D. There is always emphasis put on that when it happens, and that doesn’t happen here

Yes lol, which means it would be faster.

You are still ignoring the fact that she was intercepted from someone waiting until she was vulnerable to fire. and 100m/s is muchhhh closer to a real bullet than the 60 m/s you cited. And it appears you are wrong, she actually did fire a real bullet.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

but yeah obviously disagree with the downgrade.

 

[Wuke]

Yes lol, which means it would be faster.

You are still ignoring the fact that she was intercepted from someone waiting until she was vulnerable to fire. and 100m/s is muchhhh closer to a real bullet than the 60 m/s you cited. And it appears you are wrong, she actually did fire a real bullet.

You still haven’t properly substantiated why it would be faster.
It’s still far slower than a real bullet. And no, because she only fires rubber bullets prior, and even if I were to steelman her being able to create real bullets, her limit is one per day, which she would’ve saved for yuji, as she had orders to kill him

 

[KingTempest]

But the difference is that she’s shown to have rubber bullets, and she’s not supposed to kill anyone besides yuji, so if she can only make one real bullet (assuming she even can) we know she wouldn’t fire it at maki

The OP has 2 arguments.
1. Viz says it's around sound speed.
2. Bullets aren't comprised of the same thing as real bullets.

Point 1 is wrong and has been debunked.
Point 2 is so stupid (I'm not calling you stupid btw, it's the point) that it'd cause half the wiki to get axed.
That's like me saying magic/energy based lightning can never have the same properties of lightning all because it's made out of something else.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

We don’t know that. It could be they think the rubber bullet could kill yuji, and even then she’d save it for yuji, not use it on maki lol

You have to prove it isn't, you made the claim.

 

[Cyberblader90]

should mention our on site translator also translated it as "exceeds"

https://vsbattles.com/threads/official-translations-requests-thread-new-forum.107531/reply?quote=3820596

"The initial speed of the blood enhanced by the spell exceeds the speed of sound."

 

[Wuke]

The OP has 2 arguments.
1. Viz says it's around sound speed.
2. Bullets aren't comprised of the same thing as real bullets.

Point 1 is wrong and has been debunked.
Point 2 is so stupid (I'm not calling you stupid btw, it's the point) that it'd cause half the wiki to get axed.
That's like me saying magic/energy based lightning can never have the same properties of lightning all because it's made out of something else.

1. Hasn’t been properly been debunked, as I’ve explained why they aren’t mutually exclusive, and that the viz is extrapolating on what it means.
2. You are ignoring the supporting evidence for it not being a rubber bullet. And I’m not saying it can “never” have the real properties, I’m saying it’s likely that it doesn’t due to the evidence provided

 

[Mageman460]

We don’t know that. It could be they think the rubber bullet could kill yuji, and even then she’d save it for yuji, not use it on maki lol

She blatantly states she hates Maki before deciding to use her Cursed Technique to make a bullet. And while it doesn't say that a real bullet is used, it seems to be implied by Maki after she catches the bullet that it is real. That said, I don't have access to the raws or the official translation, so some help on that part would be appreciated.

 

[Wuke]

You have to prove it isn't, you made the claim.

I gave evidence for it likely being rubber.
And the status quo is that it is a real bullet, though there is no proof for that

 

[Wuke]

She blatantly states she hates Maki before deciding to use her Cursed Technique to make a bullet. And while it doesn't say that a real bullet is used, it seems to be implied by Maki after she catches the bullet that it is real. That said, I don't have access to the raws or the official translation, so some help on that part would be appreciated.

The problem with that, is she is under strict orders to only kill Yuji, and assuming she can make real bullets which is unfounded, her limit would be one a day, which she would use on yuji not maki

 

[Mageman460]

1. Hasn’t been properly been debunked, as I’ve explained why they aren’t mutually exclusive, and that the viz is extrapolating on what it means.
2. You are ignoring the supporting evidence for it not being a rubber bullet. And I’m not saying it can “never” have the real properties, I’m saying it’s likely that it doesn’t due to the evidence provided

1 has been debunked. You are trying to argue that all rectangles are squares here. Yes in order to exceed something, you must first reach it. But saying that you reach it, means you do not exceed it.

 

[KingTempest]

1. Hasn’t been properly been debunked, as I’ve explained why they aren’t mutually exclusive, and that the viz is extrapolating on what it means.

Viz isn't extrapolating on anything.
1 version said exceeds and the other says caught up.
1 is wrong, Viz, so we cancel it.

2. You are ignoring the supporting evidence for it not being a rubber bullet. And I’m not saying it can “never” have the real properties, I’m saying it’s likely that it doesn’t due to the evidence provided

Ok, let's target the evidence.

Hello all. I just wanted to address the usage of Maki’s Mach 27 feat, and why it is inconsistent.

Ok

This is due to Choso’s piercing blood, which is stated to only move at around the speed of sound.

Viz = wrong, raws say otherwise, so raws take precedence

And piercing blood is able to tag a stronger yuji, than the one that already outscales maki.

Stronger ≠ Faster

So for a character who is already scaling above maki to barely be able to react to something that is the Speed of sound, it is nonsensical for makis to scale higher.

Headcanon

And this is perfectly consistent given that we know mai created the bullets with curses energy, without conformation of the bullets composition.

All energy based moon creation feats get axed since we don't know if the material has the same density as the moon.
Same with star, planet, universal, etc.

So this CRT is establishing that only characters that scale to or above Choso should have speed ratings faster than, or speed of Sound

Nope

So in conclusion, Maki, scales below Yuji, who in turn is able to be hit by attacks that are only the speed of sound, and since we already are in the shadows about the details of Mai’s construction technique, to keep the scaling consistent, it’s likely it’s not a real bullet, and so the Mach 27 feat should not be used to scale characters.

So in conclusion, nothing gets changed

 

[Wuke]

1 has been debunked. You are trying to argue that all rectangles are squares here. Yes in order to exceed something, you must first reach it. But saying that you reach it, means you do not exceed it.

It doesn’t mean you haven’t exceed it though, so no, one still stands. You’re randomly assuming it’s saying that’s the limit

 

[Mageman460]

The problem with that, is she is under strict orders to only kill Yuji, and assuming she can make real bullets which is unfounded, her limit would be one a day, which she would use on yuji not maki

Ah yes, because people always follow orders. Especially when they are "natural born troublemakers. And doubly so when fighting someone you hate. Nope, not something that would ever happen.

 

[Wuke]

Viz isn't extrapolating on anything.
1 version said exceeds and the other says caught up.
1 is wrong, Viz, so we cancel it.

Ok, let's target the evidence.

Ok

Viz = wrong, raws say otherwise, so raws take precedence

Stronger ≠ Faster

Headcanon

All energy based moon creation feats get axed since we don't know if the material has the same density as the moon.
Same with star, planet, universal, etc.

Nope

So in conclusion, nothing gets changed

No. Viz says “reaches” one says exceeds. If I have a goal to lift 130 pounds and I lift 150, I reached it AND exceeded it. So viz IS extrapolating. Yuji is stated to have equal reactions to maki in goodwill, and in order for him to be her in goodwill, he’d have to have comparable speed, and he gets faster afterwards.
And you’re still ignoring the other pieces of evidence I presented for it not being a real bullet, like the fact she only uses rubber ones there, and even if she could create a real one, her limit is one per day, which she would use against yuji, since she orders to only kill him, but uses rubber bullets on students she doesnt

 

[Mageman460]

It doesn’t mean you haven’t exceed it though, so no, one still stands. You’re randomly assuming it’s saying that’s the limit

... Then I don't see the point of number one. Tossing aside the fact that reach and exceed mean different things, you are arguing that the speed of the attack ... exceeds the speed of sound. You are literally contradicting your own claim.

 

[Wuke]

Ah yes, because people always follow orders. Especially when they are "natural born troublemakers. And doubly so when fighting someone you hate. Nope, not something that would ever happen.

I didn’t say they always do. And where is mai stated to be a natural born troublemaker. What I’m saying is we see her follow orders by not shooting a real one at nobara. So it’s likely she follows orders similarly

 

[Wuke]

... Then I don't see the point of number one. Tossing aside the fact that reach and exceed mean different things, you are arguing that the speed of the attack ... exceeds the speed of sound. You are literally contradicting your own claim.

I’m saying that it’s relative, or slightly above, but not DOZENS

 

[Wuke]

Itadori is much faster in fact. Hanami says that

Thank you

 

[KingTempest]

No. Viz says “reaches” one says exceeds. If I have a goal to lift 130 pounds and I lift 150, I reached it AND exceeded it. So viz IS extrapolating. Yuji is stated to have equal reactions to maki in goodwill, and in order for him to be her in goodwill, he’d have to have comparable speed, and he gets faster afterwards.
And you’re still ignoring the other pieces of evidence I presented for it not being a real bullet, like the fact she only uses rubber ones there, and even if she could create a real one, her limit is one per day, which she would use against yuji, since she orders to only kill him, but uses rubber bullets on students she doesnt

https://www.google.com/search?q=reaches+definition&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS930US930&oq=reaches+def&aqs=chrome.0.0j69i57j0i22i30l8.1877j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

2.
arrive at; get as far as.
"“Goodbye,” she said as they reached the door"

It is IMPOSSIBLE to reach and exceed.

I don't care about the other points, I'm targeting this horrible argument of "Viz says this, and my headcanon connects it, so yes".
If this goes through, idc, but a bad point will be targeted

 

[KingTempest]

Itadori is much faster in fact. Hanami says that

Should've lead with that

 

[Mageman460]

I didn’t say they always do. And where is mai stated to be a natural born troublemaker. What I’m saying is we see her follow orders by not shooting a real one at nobara. So it’s likely she follows orders similarly

Volume 5 Profile apparently. And either way, she literally just had an outburst that she hates Maki.

 

[Wuke]

https://www.google.com/search?q=reaches+definition&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS930US930&oq=reaches+def&aqs=chrome.0.0j69i57j0i22i30l8.1877j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

2.
arrive at; get as far as.
"“Goodbye,” she said as they reached the door"

It is IMPOSSIBLE to reach and exceed.

I don't care about the other points, I'm targeting this horrible argument of "Viz says this, and my headcanon connects it, so yes".
If this goes through, idc, but a bad point will be targeted

The primary definition simply says ARRIVE AT, so it can arrive at, then slightly exceed the speed of sound, but the attack is also stated to slow down after it’s fired. And it’s not head canon, it’s just what is most consistent

 

[Mageman460]

I’m saying that it’s relative, or slightly above, but not DOZENS

Headcanon as stated by Tempest.

 

[Wuke]

Volume 5 Profile apparently. And either way, she literally just had an outburst that she hates Maki.

So she’s gonna disregard her orders from their principal? Even after she’s already expressed the desire to target yuji, since she calls him a half person? That just seems ridiculous, and there’s also nothing that suggests it’s hatred to the point shed want to KILL maki, maybe beat her up with a RUBBER billet though

 

[KingTempest]

The primary definition simply says ARRIVE AT, so it can arrive at, then slightly exceed the speed of sound, but the attack is also stated to slow down after it’s fired. And it’s not head canon, it’s just what is most consistent

Golden Mean fallacy again.

There is no PRIMARY DEFINITION, that means both.

If I arrive at a door (like in the sentence for the description), does it mean I'm through the door? No. It means I just got there.

 

[Wuke]

Headcanon as stated by Tempest.

No, it’s an argument that is consistent with both viz and the raw

 

[Mageman460]

https://www.google.com/search?q=reaches+definition&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS930US930&oq=reaches+def&aqs=chrome.0.0j69i57j0i22i30l8.1877j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

2.
arrive at; get as far as.
"“Goodbye,” she said as they reached the door"

It is IMPOSSIBLE to reach and exceed.

I don't care about the other points, I'm targeting this horrible argument of "Viz says this, and my headcanon connects it, so yes".
If this goes through, idc, but a bad point will be targeted

It is possible to do both. It's like all squares are rectangles , but not all rectangles are squares. It's not possible to do both at the same time though. In order to exceed, you had to have reached it first.

 

[Wuke]

Golden Mean fallacy again.

There is no PRIMARY DEFINITION, that means both.

If I arrive at a door (like in the sentence for the description), does it mean I'm through the door? No. It means I just got there.

It doesn’t mean you can’t walk through it though.

 

[Wuke]

It is possible to do both. It's like all squares are rectangles , but not all rectangles are squares. It's not possible to do both at the same time though. In order to exceed, you had to have reached it first.

Exactly... so I’m saying it exceed it, but not by much, since the viz seems to compare them evenly

 

[KingTempest]

It doesn’t mean you can’t walk through it though.

Then it would say "arrive and walked in", not just "arrived".

That's like using a statement of "I arrived at the level of strength that he's at" for justification of superiority.

 

[KingTempest]

Exactly... so I’m saying it exceed it, but not by much, since the viz seems to compare them evenly

Viz is wrong.
Simple

 

[Wuke]

Then it would say "arrive and walked in", not just "arrived".

That's like using a statement of "I arrived at the level of strength that he's at" for justification of superiority.

That’s an argument from silence. You’re saying that because it wasn’t explicitly stated this way that it can’t be the case. I’m trying to find a consistent interpretation that doesn’t assume a contradiction, because contradictions are a leap in logic.

 

[KingTempest]

That’s an argument from silence. You’re saying that because it wasn’t explicitly stated this way that it can’t be the case. I’m trying to find a consistent interpretation that doesn’t assume a contradiction, because contradictions are a leap in logic.

Contradictions mean one is wrong.

越える is the Kanji used in the sentence. This means to exceed; to surpass; to be more than.
着く is the Kanji that Viz pulled out of their asses. This means to arrive at; to reach.

Viz used a phrase not in the original.

You're arguing a non canon phrase.

 

[Wuke]

Contradictions mean one is wrong.

越える is the Kanji used in the sentence. This means to exceed; to surpass; to be more than.
着く is the Kanji that Viz pulled out of their asses. This means to arrive at; to reach.

Viz used a phrase not in the original.

You're arguing a non canon phrase.

Can you show me that viz used that kanji?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

This is quite literally circular argumentation, this has had absolutely no agreements so far.

 

[Wuke]

This is quite literally circular argumentation, this has had absolutely no agreements so far.

Where... and yes people agreed earlier on in the thread... and for the millionth time, nobody has substantiated why it should be a real bullet, while I have a preponderance for it being NOT