Jujutsu Kaisen Discussion Page #1

[Rosa]

Crazy how it's just stated Yuta is the leader of the Heavy Hitters

what statement implies Yuta is the strongest in the heavy hitters? There never is one

 

[Giannysmag]

Crazy how Yuji was already keeping up with Maki pre timeskip

 

[MinatoSparkle]

what statement implies Yuta is the strongest in the heavy hitters? There never is one

 

[Rosa]

Crazy how Yuji was already keeping up with Maki pre timeskip

Lets see: so Maki pulls up and Yuji gets backhanded away as Maki is attacking followed by an entire page combo from Maki without Yuji interfering before Maki states that she's holding back her speed just so Yuji can keep up. Maki then uses Yuji as a weapon before her and Sukuna got one-on-one for an entire page as Yuji plays catchup (Yuji can't air jump and there's only two lines, so this is her and Sukuna clashing repeatedly without Yuji interfering), with the fight concluding with a statement that Maki was the bigger threat. To be charitable, we do get a scene where Yuji and Maki are throwing punches, however Yuji here is throwing one punch and blocking with his other arm and leg meanwhile Maki is throwing three punches and has her fourth cocked back - so Yuji was playing defence against one of Sukuna's arms meanwhile Maki was putting Sukuna on defence - and also Maki stating that she's "speeding up" doesn't entail she's going all out in speed given she isn't even using her SSK, so if she has far better performances later on then that just implies she was still holding herself back here (or just got stronger during the timeskip).

Nothing about this statement implies Yuta would beat Maki in a fight. Yuta is their key strategist, the most versatile fighter, and the most skilled in jujutsu and so he'd obviously lead the charge against any enemy or be an overwhelming force for any opponent. In fact I'd argue it may even be likely that Yuta is trickier to beat for opponents like Kenjaku. However, that doesn't counter my argument that Maki perfectly counters everything Yuta has and has the means to kill him in a bloodlusted matchup. JJK doesn't always have linear scaling of "A > B > C", there's nuance to these matchups like the compatibility of certain fighters and what fields they excel at.

 

[Giannysmag]

Lets see: so Maki pulls up and Yuji gets backhanded away as Maki is attacking followed by an entire page combo from Maki without Yuji interfering before Maki states that she's holding back her speed just so Yuji can keep up. Maki then uses Yuji as a weapon before her

In your own scans Maki says that she is going to speed things up and asking if Yuji can keep up, which he immediately answers yes and is shown moving basically evenly with Maki

and Sukuna got one-on-one for an entire page as Yuji plays catchup (Yuji can't air jump and there's only two lines, so this is her and Sukuna clashing repeatedly without Yuji interfering),

You just debunked your own point. Yuji isn't participating in the one on one because he can't move on air like they are doing, not because he is slower. Infact immediately after this him and Maki arrive in the same spot at the same time

with the fight concluding with a statement that Maki was the bigger threat.

Sukuna was initially interested in Maki because she survived Nue's lightning undamaged and then is impressed with her taking his punch and here he says that it's better for Uruame to focus her CE on her so that she doesn't break out. He considers her a bigger threat because of her toughness and strength not her speed

To be charitable, we do get a scene where Yuji and Maki are throwing punches, however Yuji here is throwing one punch and blocking with his other arm and leg meanwhile Maki is throwing three punches and has her fourth cocked back - so Yuji was playing defence against one of Sukuna's arms meanwhile Maki was putting Sukuna on defence

Yuji isn't on the defensive here. If you look carefully Sukuna is blocking Yuji's leg with his arm meaning Yuji was the one attacking there and like Maki he had another punch cocked back

- and also Maki stating that she's "speeding up" doesn't entail she's going all out in speed given she isn't even using her SSK

What does her using SSK or not have to do with speed?

 

[Giannysmag]

so if she has far better performances later on then that just implies she was still holding herself back here (or just got stronger during the timeskip)

It's been a bit since I've read that part of the fight (and I'm on my phone rn so I can't go reread it) but by that point Yuji was already very drained having healed with RCT from several lethal attacks (mind you this would have also been before he hit a bunch of Black Flashes).

Also I really don't think Maki got any stronger during the timeskip. There's no statement or implication she ever trained or got stronger when it is explicitely stated that's the case for the sorcerers and it probably wouldn't be physically possible for her to do switch training

 

[Rosa]

In your own scans Maki says that she is going to speed things up and asking if Yuji can keep up, which he immediately answers yes and is shown moving basically evenly with Maki

This doesn't refute the fact that Maki was faster whilst holding back, Yuji can "keep up" in the sense he's not getting blitzed but he's not "even" with Maki nor does he ever move evenly with her.

You just debunked your own point. Yuji isn't participating in the one on one because he can't move on air like they are doing, not because he is slower. Infact immediately after this him and Maki arrive in the same spot at the same time

If Yuji was equal in speed we'd expect him to be able to still leap to land an attack, the same way he did in chapter 214, and do you not think there's any implication to Maki thinking she's better off, or at least just as effective, taking the fight into the air to 1v1 Sukuna knowing Yuji can't sky-walk like she can?

Sukuna was initially interested in Maki because she survived Nue's lightning undamaged and then is impressed with her taking his punch and here he says that it's better for Uruame to focus her CE on her so that she doesn't break out. He considers her a bigger threat because of her toughness and strength not her speed

This is headcanon, no where does Sukuna say that she's only tougher but not faster nor does the feats demonstrate that. We get two instances where Maki is 1v1'ing Sukuna whilst Yuji is left in the dust, one instance where they're both punching side-by-side and Maki is outperforming, and a literal statement that Maki is intentionally holding back her own speed for Yuji. To say she's only impressive in durability is just cognitive dissonance, maybe go reread the manga.

Yuji isn't on the defensive here. If you look carefully Sukuna is blocking Yuji's leg with his arm meaning Yuji was the one attacking there and like Maki he had another punch cocked back

Yuji's leg isn't even extended out stop rating omfg

What does her using SSK or not have to do with speed?

So let's use some reading comprehension here; I'm saying if Maki is holding back aspects of her fighting capability - i.e. her greatest asset, her one-hit kill weapon - then I don't see why we'd assume she's going all out in other aspects also. If she admits she started off the fight holding back her speed but is now "speeding up" (not necessarily going all out), still holds back other aspects of her fighting capability, and later performs better speed feats, then her performance here is in no way an anti-feat as there's nothing connecting this to her full power. This argument isn't the same as me claiming she's somehow slower when not using SSK, kind of silly that you read it that way tbh.

It's been a bit since I've read that part of the fight (and I'm on my phone rn so I can't go reread it) but by that point Yuji was already very drained having healed with RCT from several lethal attacks (mind you this would have also been before he hit a bunch of Black Flashes).

The only mention of fatigue for Yuji comes way later in the fight (as in, ~20 chapters of pure action later) with there being no implications that Yuji is fatigued by this point (no heavy breathing, no mention of losing output, no sweating, etc), so to say Maki's feats are just due to Yuji getting weaker via fatigue is your burden of proof and not something I need to otherwise disprove. Although we arguably do have a basis to say Yuji hasn't decreased significantly in speed; Kusakabe and Ino notes how it was the original plan to have Choso fight alongside Yuta and Yuji inside his domain, Kusakabe even using the verbiage of "how many of us do you think can just prance around special grade sorcerers without a care in the world" highlighting that this is a speed feat for Choso, yet when Choso joins the fight Yuji has no issue keeping up with him still. So in terms of speed 256 Yuji ~ Choso ~ DE Yuta ~ 250 Yuji.

Also I really don't think Maki got any stronger during the timeskip. There's no statement or implication she ever trained or got stronger when it is explicitely stated that's the case for the sorcerers and it probably wouldn't be physically possible for her to do switch training

I don't think she got substantially stronger either, though it's certainly less of an assumption to say she had than to say her improved feats later on can just be ignored due to a showing a month prior in the story.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Oh no

 

[Giannysmag]

This doesn't refute the fact that Maki was faster whilst holding back

She was not

so Maki pulls up and Yuji gets backhanded away as Maki is attacking followed by an entire page combo from Maki

She attacks and gets blocked and Yuji gets knocked away with a backhand which is a problem of durability not speed.

Yuji can "keep up" in the sense he's not getting blitzed but he's not "even" with Maki nor does he ever move evenly with her.

If Yuji was equal in speed we'd expect him to be able to still leap to land an attack, the same way he did in chapter 214,

It's a lot harder to do consecutive jumps on back to back to fight someone than doing one single jump straight up.

and do you not think there's any implication to Maki thinking she's better off, or at least just as effective, taking the fight into the air to 1v1 Sukuna knowing Yuji can't sky-walk like she can?

She would be better off fighting on the ground but the problem is that she wasn't in control of the fight, Sukuna was

This is headcanon, no where does Sukuna say that she's only tougher but not faster nor does the feats demonstrate that.

All of the times Sukuna praises her it's because of her durability or her strength. He says she is no small fry because she was undamaeged from Nue's lightning (durability), he says "not bad" because she took his punch (durability), he says that Uruame focusing her CE on Maki is good so that she doesn't break out (strength). It's more headcannon-y to say that he is impressed with her speed.

We get two instances where Maki is 1v1'ing Sukuna whilst Yuji is left in the dust

In both cases Yuji couldn't participate for reasons aside from speed (getting knocked away by a backhand and not being able to move in the air)

and a literal statement that Maki is intentionally holding back her own speed for Yuji.

Maki was holding back her speed at first, the statement you mention is her saying that she is going to increase her speed and asking if Yuji can keep up, which he does.

To say she's only impressive in durability is just cognitive dissonance, maybe go reread the manga.

Maybe you should reread my response. I didn't say that she is only impressive in terms of durability, I said she is impressing Sukuna with her durability which is objectively what is happening

Yuji's leg isn't even extended out stop rating omfg

He's doing a knee strike

The only mention of fatigue for Yuji comes way later in the fight (as in, ~20 chapters of pure action later) with there being no implications that Yuji is fatigued by this point (no heavy breathing, no mention of losing output, no sweating, etc), so to say Maki's feats are just due to Yuji getting weaker via fatigue is your burden of proof and not something I need to otherwise disprove

This is Yuji like three chapters before the fight you mentioned

Also I feel you are really overestimating Maki's feats against Sukuna. Yuji and Choso are mid attack and still caught up in rumble and smoke after Sukuna moved away from them, at which point Maki had already begun moving to attack Sukuna. And that's basically all Maki has over Yuji.

If we look at their respective feats when fighting solo (well not technically solo, Maki has Kusakabe and Ino and Yuji has Ino but basically solo) Yuji actually performs better. Maki can react to Sukuna's slashes thanks to her senses and somewhat keep up with im in CQC but fails to land any hits on her own, with Sukuna repeaditly reacting to and blocking her attacks. Yuji on the other hand reacts to him in CQC several times and lands multiple clean hits on him.

 

[Rosa]

She was not

What do you think her saying she's going to speed things up implies? Do you think she didn't get faster after saying that? You're so ridiculous lmfao

She attacks and gets blocked and Yuji gets knocked away with a backhand which is a problem of durability not speed.

Yuji didn't even have enough time to let off his own attack or block Sukuna's backhand, Maki got her attack in and countered Sukuna's next attack with a counter. It's absurd that you'd act like this is two even fighters.

It's a lot harder to do consecutive jumps on back to back to fight someone than doing one single jump straight up.

I never said anything about back-to-back, Yuji just needed to land one grapple to ground them.

She would be better off fighting on the ground but the problem is that she wasn't in control of the fight, Sukuna was

Imagine this, Sukuna leaps in the air and Maki just... doesn't follow him. They were clashing back and forth evenly, Sukuna never dragged her into the sky, Maki thought her positioning away from Yuji was optimal after already stating she was previously forcing herself to be slower just so he can keep up.

All of the times Sukuna praises her it's because of her durability or her strength. He says she is no small fry because she was undamaeged from Nue's lightning (durability), he says "not bad" because she took his punch (durability), he says it's good that Uruame focusing her CE on Maki is good so that she doesn't break out (strength). It's more headcannon-y to say that he is impressed with her speed.

None of this responds to the points I made at all, you're just repeating the points you made. None of these instances are exclusive from mine either, it can be due to her overall stats which is what I'm suggesting, him praising her durability doesn't imply he's not impressed with her speed with the examples I gave. This is just dishonest framing.

In both cases Yuji couldn't participate for reasons aside from speed (getting knocked away by a backhand and not being able to move in the air)

I've already explained why being put in these disadvantageous positions was a speed thing to begin with, if Yuji was equal in speed he wouldn't get backhanded away or left behind mid-fight.

Maki was holding back her speed at first, the statement you mention is her saying that she is going to increase her speed and asking if Yuji can keep up, which he does.

You literally started this message off by saying Maki wasn't holding back, now you're saying she was? Stay consistent please . Notice Maki never states she's going all out too.

Maybe you should reread my response. I didn't say that she is only impressive in terms of durability, I said she is impressing Sukuna with her durability which is objectively what is happening

Which is what I disagreed with? I don't think Sukuna is only impressed with her durability, that's my point lmfao.

He's doing a knee strike

Holding your knee up to your torso is a "strike"? Okay...

This is Yuji like three chapters before the fight you mentioned

Do you know what fatigue is? Yuji incorrectly healing an injury and needing to take a moment to refine his RCT to better recover isn't him being fatigued, that's not what fatigue is. He was wounded, he then recovered from the wound and jumped back in.

Also I feel you are really overestimating Maki's feats against Sukuna. Yuji and Choso are mid attack and still caught up in rumble and smoke after Sukuna moved away from them, at which point Maki had already begun moving to attack Sukuna. And that's basically all Maki has over Yuji.

Yes, Yuji was pinning Sukuna down whilst Choso let off a point-blank PB, Sukuna escaped the pin to evade the PB before it hit him and created several feet worth of distance before they reacted, and during this movement Maki not only caught up to him but successfully outpaced and pinned him down.

If we look at their respective feats when fighting solo (well not technically solo, Maki has Kusakabe and Ino and Yuji has Ino but basically solo) Yuji actually performs better. Maki can react to Sukuna's slashes thanks to her senses and somewhat keep up with im in CQC but fails to land any hits on her own, with Sukuna repeaditly reacting to and blocking her attacks. Yuji on the other hand reacts to him in CQC several times and lands multiple clean hits on him. Yuji was also fighting an arguably stronger version of Sukuna since he was now going all out and had landed multiple Black Flashes, while also not having recieved much damage between the two fight (he gets cut up a bit by Kusakabe and slapped once by Miguel but that's basically nothing compared to his already existing injuries and nerfs)

I don't care for measuring their solo matches given Sukuna tries harder against certain opponents depending on interest and Sukuna was also continuously getting weaker and weaker, his output dropping, and his limbs being cut away. Plus, I think 257 Yuji is stronger than post-Choso's death Yuji given the disparity in feats and narrative around his conviction being the source of his awakening and that being shaken to its core, which is also expressed in how he fights, not to mention Yuji is amped by upwards of 7 consecutive black flashes here, so it's not exactly comparable to base EoS Yuji.

 

[Gokukid2005]

At the end of the day
Yuta is better than both

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Strongest Maki Glazer of Today (Rosa) vs Strongest Maki Glazer of the Past (Gin)

 

[Shmooply]

All that effort just to be a Wiguruma victim anyway.

 

[Giannysmag]

What do you think her saying she's going to speed things up implies? Do you think she didn't get faster after saying that? You're so ridiculous lmfao

I think I was trying to say something like "She was not holding back the whole fight" but then half way thought of something else and forgot about it, Maki wasn't going full speed at the start of the fight so that's on me

Yuji didn't even have enough time to let off his own attack or block Sukuna's backhand, Maki got her attack in and countered Sukuna's next attack with a counter.

Fair enough

It's absurd that you'd act like this is two even fighters.

None of this responds to the points I made at all, you're just repeating the points you made. None of these instances are exclusive from mine either, it can be due to her overall stats which is what I'm suggesting, him praising her durability doesn't imply he's not impressed with her speed with the examples I gave. This is just dishonest framing.

You said

This is headcanon, no where does Sukuna say that she's only tougher but not faster nor does the feats demonstrate that.

Which is wrong because all of the times Sukuna calls her impressive are in regards to her durability and strength. He doesn't even give a vague statement of "she is a big threat" or something it's always implied to regard to those two things. If he is so impressed with her speed then give me a panel of him even implying that's the case.

I've already explained why being put in these disadvantageous positions was a speed thing to begin with, if Yuji was equal in speed he wouldn't get backhanded away or left behind mid-fight.

Alright so I've made a (probably very obvious) realisation. The rocks Maki and Suk are scaling are going upwards while I always thought they where horizontally for some reason. However this actually helps my case because at the end of the page we see that Yuji and Maki arrive at the top at the same time (we know it's the same time because there's still speedlines on the page as well as an arch showing how Sukuna moved implying this is at the end of their movements)

As for the "Maki intentionally started jumping with Sukuna point" yes that is the case but it's not so she can use her full speed or smth. It's because Sukuna was jumping to escape from them (the whole point of the spiderweb move was so that he can put them out of balance for a but) and they needed to catch up to him. Obviously she would chase after him through the rocks because that's the quickest way to get to him

Notice Maki never states she's going all out too.

Ok but why wouldn't she? When she talks about speeding things up she mentions that their goal is to capture Sukuna, which would require her to use her full speed.

Which is what I disagreed with? I don't think Sukuna is only impressed with her durability, that's my point lmfao.

Holding your knee up to your torso is a "strike"? Okay...

Yes that's literally how knee strikes work

Do you know what fatigue is? Yuji incorrectly healing an injury and needing to take a moment to refine his RCT to better recover isn't him being fatigued, that's not what fatigue is. He was wounded, he then recovered from the wound and jumped back in.

The point is that using RCT to heal from a lethal attack takes a lot of energy, even Gojo could have eventually drained himself if he kept using RCT continually, and that failing to RCT one of the injuries would obviously put a strain on him

Yes, Yuji was pinning Sukuna down whilst Choso let off a point-blank PB, Sukuna escaped the pin to evade the PB before it hit him and created several feet worth of distance before they reacted,

They didn't react immediately because the smoke surrounding them, so they wouldn't have known what direction Sukuna went from

I don't care for measuring their solo matches given Sukuna tries harder against certain opponents depending on interest

The moment Sukuna actually got very interested in Maki was when he realised the whole "sorcery vs physical body" thing at which point he ******* perception blitzed her. I'd argue he would be trying harder against Yuji than he did in most of the Maki fight since he had already vowed to crush Yuji's ideals by that point and was clearly very pissed when fighting him.

and Sukuna was also continuously getting weaker and weaker, his output dropping, and his limbs being cut away.

Looking at the nerfs Sukuna had between the two fights I'd say they're pretty even. Sukuna's biggest nerf between them was losing an arm which obviously detrimental but he also landed thre Black Flashes which substantially recovered his output (both RCT and CE)

Plus, I think 257 Yuji is stronger than post-Choso's death Yuji given the disparity in feats and narrative around his conviction being the source of his awakening and that being shaken to its core

His conviction might have been shaken post Choso fight but he clearly figured it out by the end (265 is literally just a big therapy session for him) and was able to duke it out with a Sukuna that had recovered his RCT and all for of his arms.

which is also expressed in how he fights, not to mention Yuji is amped by upwards of 7 consecutive black flashes here,

Yuji retains the boosts he gains with BF. All that's different between base EOS Yuji and the Yuji that was fighting Sukuna was that one is in the zone and the other isn't. And the zone is something he enters if he lands even a single Black Flash.

 

[Rosa]

Showing a cropped panel I already responded to, wherein Maki is travelling further than Yuji and had to grab Yuji and use him as a weapon. Like again I'm not saying Maki should be blitzing Yuji, Yuji "keeping up" isn't in contention, the issue is you saying Yuji is EQUAL to Maki in speed.

Which is wrong because all of the times Sukuna calls her impressive are in regards to her durability and strength. He doesn't even give a vague statement of "she is a big threat" or something it's always implied to regard to those two things. If he is so impressed with her speed then give me a panel of him even implying that's the case.

Sukuna saying "her durability is impressive" isn't the same thing as saying "ONLY her durability is impressive". I'm saying her speed is ALSO impressive and you're using scenes of Sukuna mentioning to durability to argue that therefore means it's only durability, that's incredibly fallacious. You can't prove Sukuna ONLY thinks her durability is impressive via him talking about durability, so you can't use it as a counter to me bringing up Maki's speed feats.

Alright so I've made a (probably very obvious) realisation. The rocks Maki and Suk are scaling are going upwards while I always thought they where horizontally for some reason. However this actually helps my case because at the end of the page we see that Yuji and Maki arrive at the top at the same time (we know it's the same time because there's still speedlines on the page as well as an arch showing how Sukuna moved implying this is at the end of their movements)

Maki wasn't going in a straight line, she was zig-zagging whilst chaotically clashing with someone instead of dashing from point A to B, so Yuji dashing to point A and arriving at the same time as her is an anti-feat if anything.

As for the "Maki intentionally started jumping with Sukuna point" yes that is the case but it's not so she can use her full speed or smth. It's because Sukuna was jumping to escape from them (the whole point of the spiderweb move was so that he can put them out of balance for a but) and they needed to catch up to him. Obviously she would chase after him through the rocks because that's the quickest way to get to him

You just said Yuji had no issue arriving at the same point as Sukuna and Maki as a point for Yuji's speed, so why would Maki risk fighting 1-on-1 if by your own logic she didn't need to?

Ok but why wouldn't she? When she talks about speeding things up she mentions that their goal is to capture Sukuna, which would require her to use her full speed.

This isn't my burden of proof, if character at time 1 is shown to be x speed but at time 2 is shown to be y speed, and y > x, then it's basic inference that their either got faster between time 1 and time 2 or were holding back at time 1, so the point I'm making is even if you can prove Maki is equal to Yuji in this scene then that doesn't successfully contend with her feats in Shinjuku given there's no proof she's going all out. So asking "but why would she hold back" isn't important, I could say I don't know and my argument would be just as valid. Though even ignoring this, there is a pretty common sense reason of her wanting to coordinate attacks with Yuji still as combining your attacks with a third party could be more advantageous than running in on your own against an opponent.

Yes that's literally how knee strikes work

A knee strike is hitting someone with your knee, i.e. you need to move your knee in a way which would actually connect with their body, holding your knee to your chest to block a punch isn't a "knee strike"....

The point is that using RCT to heal from a lethal attack takes a lot of energy, even Gojo could have eventually drained himself if he kept using RCT continually, and that failing to RCT one of the injuries would obviously put a strain on him

Yuji has blood manipulation which mitigates the fatigue imposed on a sorcerer via RCT, this is stressed in the story. That's not to say Yuji would never fatigue, but if the story never shows any indication of fatigue and even goes out of its way to say "the technique Yuji's using specifically mitigates fatigue", AND we having scaling chains showing no significant drop in performance.... yea I don't see why you think Yuji is massively slower here, just seems like headcanon.

They didn't react immediately because the smoke surrounding them, so they wouldn't have known what direction Sukuna went from

They were literally holding him down, they would've felt him move, and also the smoke seems to be from Choso's attack which he's dodging so it wouldn't have obscured his movement.

The moment Sukuna actually got very interested in Maki was when he realised the whole "sorcery vs physical body" thing at which point he ******* perception blitzed her. I'd argue he would be trying harder against Yuji than he did in most of the Maki fight since he had already vowed to crush Yuji's ideals by that point and was clearly very pissed when fighting him.

Sukuna only started getting pissed later in the fight, also trying to gauge Sukuna's interest for scaling is inherently assumptive so I don't buy into it. Tbf tho, if you asked me 257 Yuji vs Maki I think that's actually extremely close. Maki has the better win con imo (she just needs one hit with SSK on the head, and healing soul wounds would slow Yuji down) but I actually would assume Yuji has the better stats (durability is a toss up), though again I don't think EoS, or even post-259, Yuji has the same stats as 257 Yuji due to the difference in performance against weaker versions of Sukuna (such as this embarrassing play in 263).

Looking at the nerfs Sukuna had between the two fights I'd say they're pretty even. Sukuna's biggest nerf between them was losing an arm which obviously detrimental but he also landed thre Black Flashes which substantially recovered his output (both RCT and CE)

Yuji removed the boost he got from 2 BFs with his own 7 BF hits onto Sukuna's soul (hence why he couldn't regain RCT)

His conviction might have been shaken post Choso fight but he clearly figured it out by the end (265 is literally just a big therapy session for him) and was able to duke it out with a Sukuna that had recovered his RCT and all for of his arms.

Sukuna is WAYYYYY more nerfed there than ever before. Yuji went from outperforming Sukuna to being carried by Todo against a CT burn out Sukuna, and then Sukuna got hit with a HP to the face and Yuji (without Todo) couldn't land a hit. Sukuna then got RCT and was bullying Yuji inside his own domain whilst 2 hands were occupied, and then after Megumi awoke (lowering output), Nobara hit resonance to remove his CT and damage the soul, and Yuji's surehit landed dicing up Sukuna's soul he was still going blow for blow with Yuji.

Yuji retains the boosts he gains with BF. All that's different between base EOS Yuji and the Yuji that was fighting Sukuna was that one is in the zone and the other isn't. And the zone is something he enters if he lands even a single Black Flash.

I don't agree with this, not much in the story suggests a sorcerer maintains a permanent amp from BF, the best we have is Nobara remembering the zone she entered and trying to mimic that level of CE mastery during Shibuya, but that's not the same as her retaining her stat amp nor would it be applicable to Yuji who had already experienced that state several times by now.

 

[Giannysmag]

Don't really have the enrgy to keep this up but I will respond to two things

Like again I'm not saying Maki should be blitzing Yuji, Yuji "keeping up" isn't in contention, the issue is you saying Yuji is EQUAL to Maki in speed.

It's a good thing then that my orignal comment that started all of this specifically said Yuji was keeping up with her lol

Crazy how Yuji was already keeping up with Maki pre timeskip

Sukuna saying "her durability is impressive" isn't the same thing as saying "ONLY her durability is impressive". I'm saying her speed is ALSO impressive and you're using scenes of Sukuna mentioning to durability to argue that therefore means it's only durability, that's incredibly fallacious. You can't prove Sukuna ONLY thinks her durability is impressive via him talking about durability, so you can't use it as a counter to me bringing up Maki's speed feats.

You where the one that first brought up Sukuna viewing Maki as a threat

with the fight concluding with a statement that Maki was the bigger threat

The scan you used never mentions Maki's speed

So the burden of proof would fall on you to show that Sukuna is impressed with Maki's speed

 

[Rosa]

Don't really have the enrgy to keep this up but I will respond to two things

It's a good thing then that my orignal comment that started all of this specifically said Yuji was keeping up with her lol

This is fair, I assumed you were implying more with that comment but it may be agreeable. Idk if you still agree, but the speed point I'm going with is:
Maki > Shinjuku Yuji > 214 Yuji

Then we have domain amped Yuta being = to Shinjuku Yuji, and Hakari doesn't really have any good speed scaling given his whole fighting style is banking on his immortality so statements of him being comparable to Yuta don't have to mean he's equal in speed so he's... somewhere ig idrk.

So my argument is Maki is significantly faster than Yuta (i.e. in a melee exchange will tag Yuta), has a one-hit kill sword, has an insane durability advantage, and is a counter to most of his kit. Maki also is likely physically stronger than Yuta, but that's not too relevant. With Yuji like I said it's closer, but still she's faster and has the better win con (SSK) so I lean on her winning. Give Yuji his BF amps though and I could see Yuji winning.

You where the one that first brought up Sukuna viewing Maki as a threat

That doesn't really change you misusing Sukuna's statements to derive invalid conclusions such as conflating "Maki's durability is impressive" with "Maki's durability (and strength I think you said) is the only thing which is impressive".

The scan you used never mentions Maki's speed

So the burden of proof would fall on you to show that Sukuna is impressed with Maki's speed

The proof is her superior speed showing and Sukuna in 253 mentioning her physicality as a whole (not saying that Sukuna was claiming she's > everyone, that monologue is very nuanced imo and doesn't straightforwardly put Maki above everyone else, but I do think it has implications which support my point but we don't need to get into them.

 

[Shmooply]

Wuji victimizes.

 

[Rosa]

Here's a more interesting discussion, what do ya'll think Yuji's eyes mean?

In ch214 Yuji initially is drawn with his regular eyes but once he leaps at Sukuna Gege highlights his spiral eyes (the same kind Sukuna has) with Sukuna stating that Yuji had an explosive growth in strength. Yuji then has them for the rest of their fight until Sukuna hits him with dismantle wherein his eyes are back to normal, but when Yuji then walks through Sukuna's barrage of dismantles they're spirals again (with Gege again highlighting it). Yuji then sees Maki and his eyes are normal and remain normal throughout the timeskip. Even during Shinjuku Showdown wherein Yuji is stronger than ever according to Sukuna his eyes are normal until he awakens wherein they're highlighted as spirals and are consistently drawn that way throughout the following chapters, even when Yuji's resolve has been shaken to its core they remain as spirals (before Todo pulls up). Then in chapter 264, where Yuji starts off with his eyes still spirals and the page right before Yuji uses domain he has spirals, when he uses DE his eyes are suddenly normal, and throughout his talk with Sukuna they're normal until the panel where he says he'll kill Sukuna where they're once again zoomed in on. Then whenever Yuji is talking to Megumi they're normal but when fighting Sukuna they're spirals and remain that way even during the final BF and are highlighted as spirals even after Sukuna evaporated. However, when Megumi wakes up Yuji is never seen with spiral eyes again and we see they're normal.

What do ya'll think the spiral eyes were representing in all these scenes? At first I thought it was to show him accessing his awakened strength, but that doesn't seem consistent with 214 Yuji being weaker than Shinjuku Yuji, him losing it during his DE, and him losing them after Shinjuku (unless we're gonna say Yuji lost Shrine and DE post-Shinjuku).

 

[Rosa]

Wuji victimizes.

I'm not seeing any win cons

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I'm not seeing any win cons

x 7

 

[Rosa]

x 7

BF is not a reliable win con, Yuji cannot just do them at will at the start of a matchup, plus I don't even think his BFs would put Maki down given she was still fighting after 2 black flashes from Sukuna (we see she was running back in as he used DE).

 

[MinatoSparkle]

BF is not a reliable win con, Yuji cannot just do them at will at the start of a matchup, plus I don't even think his BFs would put Maki down given she was still fighting after 2 black flashes from Sukuna (we see she was running back in as he used DE).

It's not guaranteed, but he is blessed by the sparks of black more than anyone else, and even one of those are enough to damage Maki pretty considerably so she's definitely not tanking 7

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Something something comparable stats, soul dismantle, and blood manip+poison

I do think it’d be funny though for Yuji to try and pop domain and Maki just walks through it

 

[Giannysmag]

Here's a more interesting discussion, what do ya'll think Yuji's eyes mean?

In ch214 Yuji initially is drawn with his regular eyes but once he leaps at Sukuna Gege highlights his spiral eyes (the same kind Sukuna has) with Sukuna stating that Yuji had an explosive growth in strength. Yuji then has them for the rest of their fight until Sukuna hits him with dismantle wherein his eyes are back to normal, but when Yuji then walks through Sukuna's barrage of dismantles they're spirals again (with Gege again highlighting it). Yuji then sees Maki and his eyes are normal and remain normal throughout the timeskip. Even during Shinjuku Showdown wherein Yuji is stronger than ever according to Sukuna his eyes are normal until he awakens wherein they're highlighted as spirals and are consistently drawn that way throughout the following chapters, even when Yuji's resolve has been shaken to its core they remain as spirals (before Todo pulls up). Then in chapter 264, where Yuji starts off with his eyes still spirals and the page right before Yuji uses domain he has spirals, when he uses DE his eyes are suddenly normal, and throughout his talk with Sukuna they're normal until the panel where he says he'll kill Sukuna where they're once again zoomed in on. Then whenever Yuji is talking to Megumi they're normal but when fighting Sukuna they're spirals and remain that way even during the final BF and are highlighted as spirals even after Sukuna evaporated. However, when Megumi wakes up Yuji is never seen with spiral eyes again and we see they're normal.

What do ya'll think the spiral eyes were representing in all these scenes? At first I thought it was to show him accessing his awakened strength, but that doesn't seem consistent with 214 Yuji being weaker than Shinjuku Yuji, him losing it during his DE, and him losing them after Shinjuku (unless we're gonna say Yuji lost Shrine and DE post-Shinjuku).

I originally thought they where to show he was close to awakening but that doesn't really make sense since they clearly turn on and off while he is awakened. So one of two things is happening 1. Gege forgot to draw the spirals or 2. The spirals only appear when he is locked in against Sukuna, which is why they dissapear when they are just chilling in his domain or when he is talking to Megumi and they are just supposed to parallel the two

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Here's a more interesting discussion, what do ya'll think Yuji's eyes mean?

In ch214 Yuji initially is drawn with his regular eyes but once he leaps at Sukuna Gege highlights his spiral eyes (the same kind Sukuna has) with Sukuna stating that Yuji had an explosive growth in strength. Yuji then has them for the rest of their fight until Sukuna hits him with dismantle wherein his eyes are back to normal, but when Yuji then walks through Sukuna's barrage of dismantles they're spirals again (with Gege again highlighting it). Yuji then sees Maki and his eyes are normal and remain normal throughout the timeskip. Even during Shinjuku Showdown wherein Yuji is stronger than ever according to Sukuna his eyes are normal until he awakens wherein they're highlighted as spirals and are consistently drawn that way throughout the following chapters, even when Yuji's resolve has been shaken to its core they remain as spirals (before Todo pulls up). Then in chapter 264, where Yuji starts off with his eyes still spirals and the page right before Yuji uses domain he has spirals, when he uses DE his eyes are suddenly normal, and throughout his talk with Sukuna they're normal until the panel where he says he'll kill Sukuna where they're once again zoomed in on. Then whenever Yuji is talking to Megumi they're normal but when fighting Sukuna they're spirals and remain that way even during the final BF and are highlighted as spirals even after Sukuna evaporated. However, when Megumi wakes up Yuji is never seen with spiral eyes again and we see they're normal.

What do ya'll think the spiral eyes were representing in all these scenes? At first I thought it was to show him accessing his awakened strength, but that doesn't seem consistent with 214 Yuji being weaker than Shinjuku Yuji, him losing it during his DE, and him losing them after Shinjuku (unless we're gonna say Yuji lost Shrine and DE post-Shinjuku).

I just assume it means he’s locked in. In this case on killing/taking down Sukuna. When he opens his domain he’s trying to convince him about humanity and he only relocks in when he realizes it’s pointless and he has to kill him. I don’t think he lost that focus after Choso’s death. Even if it was in the back of his mind at that specific moment, he still knew he had to take down Sukuna which is probably why the spiral didn’t go away.

 

[Rosa]

It's not guaranteed, but he is blessed by the sparks of black more than anyone else, and even one of those are enough to damage Maki pretty considerably so she's definitely not tanking 7

right... Maki only needs one hit with SSK tho so

 

[Giannysmag]

right... Maki only needs one hit with SSK tho so

One hit to the head, otherwise Yuji can heal it

 

[Rosa]

One hit to the head, otherwise Yuji can heal it

even for those who can heal soul damage it takes significantly longer to do so, so even if Yuji blocks and loses a limb that'll give Maki a valuable time window. Even then, we're really gonna say Maki landing a head shot is more improbable than Yuji landing SEVEN black flashes?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

He did land seven against Sukuna who's faster than Maki so...

 

[Giannysmag]

even for those who can heal soul damage it takes significantly longer to do so, so even if Yuji blocks and loses a limb that'll give Maki a valuable time window.

Yuji can reattach limbs with blood manip making it much easier to heal them

Even then, we're really gonna say Maki landing a head shot is more improbable than Yuji landing SEVEN black flashes?

Yuji isn't stupid (not when fighting at least), even if he doesn't know SSK negates durability he is not ganna let a blade hit him in the head. Yuta could have killed him with a headslash too when they fought and even tho Yuji was much weaker than even a holding back Yuta, he still held his own for a substantial amount of time and actually managed to break Yuta's sword. Here the stat gap (if there even is any) is practically non existant compared to what it was against Yuta, he has his cursed techniques for extra range and versitility, he can heal albeit slowly and Maki doesn't have a Rika to suddenly jump in when things are getting hard.

Yuji doesn't need to land 7 Black Flashes either, Black Flash is consistently potrayed as a 1 or 2 shot against opponents of comparable stats, especially ones who don't have RCT. Even her taking Sukuna's BF isn't that impressive considering she blocked it with her sword and still got knocked out for like 3 chapters (during which she was most liekly recovering with her healing factor which she obviously won't be able to do in a 1v1)

 

[Rosa]

He did land seven against Sukuna who's faster than Maki so...

Yuji only landed them after being amped by his first one, which he needed help to land, and even then Sukuna was substantially more nerfed since the Maki fight so we can't assume that. Do you think Todo is also faster than Maki due to kicking Sukuna? Or that Ino is faster due to landing 2 attacks?

Yuji was also attacked between BFs against Sukuna, so this doesn't even prove that he'd successfully pull it off before a hit from SSK.

 

[JnSteHar002]

Even her taking Sukuna's BF isn't that impressive considering she blocked it with her sword and still got knocked out for like 3 chapters (during which she was most liekly recovering with her healing factor which she obviously won't be able to do in a 1v1)

Not to nitpick, but I'm pretty sure Maki didn't block Sukuna's BF w/SSK. At least from what I saw, she took it head on, right in the gut

 

[Giannysmag]

Not to nitpick, but I'm pretty sure Maki didn't block Sukuna's BF w/SSK. At least from what I saw, she took it head on, right in the gut

You are kind off correct

She is still blocking it but with her hand rather than SSK

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Yuji only landed them after being amped by his first one, which he needed help to land, and even then Sukuna was substantially more nerfed since the Maki fight so we can't assume that.

BF is only like a 20% amp, it's not that big a deal. Base Todo could keep up with 120% Yuji and Mahito. Also why is he substantially more nerfed? Sukuna went relative with Maki pretty much right before his fight with Yuji, and while he did receive a few soul strikes, he also hit 3 Black Flashes himself (the first being the one against Maki that defeated her)

Do you think Todo is also faster than Maki due to kicking Sukuna?

I don't think Shinjuku Todo is that far off in speed, but anyways he was assisted by Boogie Woogie and Yuji

Or that Ino is faster due to landing 2 attacks?

Offguard

Yuji was also attacked between BFs against Sukuna, so this doesn't even prove that he'd successfully pull it off before a hit from SSK.

He successfully tagged Sukuna multiple times without him blocking who's at least relative to Maki so he's faster and thus would be able to land his strikes before hers

 

[Rosa]

Yuji can reattach limbs with blood manip making it much easier to heal them

Which would be slowed via it being soul damage, plus SSK negates durability so Yuji can't block against it only dodge (Sukuna needed the chainsaw cuts around his limbs to do so, which Yuji has never shown the ability to use) and you can never prove Yuji has the speed to never get hit whilst attacking.

Yuji isn't stupid (not when fighting at least), even if he doesn't know SSK negates durability he is not ganna let a blade hit him in the head. Yuta could have killed him with a headslash too when they fought and even tho Yuji was much weaker than even a holding back Yuta, he still held his own for a substantial amount of time and actually managed to break Yuta's sword.

Idk what you think this means, no one's denying that Yuji is skilled just not skilled enough to never get hit.

Here the stat gap (if there even is any) is practically non existant compared to what it was against Yuta

proof? And don't just bring up 215 again after you dropped those points and we've moved on from them lmfao

Yuji doesn't need to land 7 Black Flashes either, Black Flash is consistently potrayed as a 1 or 2 shot against opponents of comparable stats, especially ones who don't have RCT. Even her taking Sukuna's BF isn't that impressive considering she blocked it with her sword and still got knocked out for like 3 chapters (during which she was most liekly recovering with her healing factor which she obviously won't be able to do in a 1v1)

Maki never blocked it with her sword nor was she out for 3 chapters, she was knocked out initially but we don't know when she awoke given Sukuna got launched across the city against Kusakabe. Also, prove Maki and Yuji's durability is comparable to suggest Yuji would one-shot with BF.

BF is only like a 20% amp, it's not that big a deal. Base Todo could keep up with 120% Yuji and Mahito.

Still doesn't negate that he was amped, even if it's not a blitz gap or something.

Also why is he substantially more nerfed? Sukuna went relative with Maki pretty much right before his fight with Yuji, and while he did receive a few soul strikes, he also hit 3 Black Flashes himself (the first being the one against Maki that defeated her)

Choso literally states that the first 4 BFs are negated by Yuji's basic soul punches to which Yuji (again using help) landed a BF on Sukuna's soul, then later in 257 when Sukuna began getting serious (change in experession, and early in 257 he was tanking BFs) Yuji only landed hits when Ino was helping. The same Yuji then needed help tagging a CT burn out Yuji, then when Todo was removed Yuji actually couldn't hit Sukuna at all in 263.

I don't think Shinjuku Todo is that far off in speed, but anyways he was assisted by Boogie Woogie and Yuji

Offguard

You'll never bring up the context of Yuji's hits, but will scream context for anyone else

He successfully tagged Sukuna multiple times without him blocking who's at least relative to Maki so he's faster and thus would be able to land his strikes before hers

Even assuming this is true, why would all of Yuji's blows be BFs or why would his base strikes be effective against her durability?

 

[Giannysmag]

Which would be slowed via it being soul damage, plus SSK negates durability so Yuji can't block against it only dodge (Sukuna needed the chainsaw cuts around his limbs to do so, which Yuji has never shown the ability to use)

and you can never prove Yuji has the speed to never get hit whilst attacking.

Assuming he can keep up with Maki in speed at all (which you agreed he can), he would be able to avoid getting hit and also attack. Look at the Choso fight, Choso in base and with FRS was comparable to Yuji, he then uses FRS stacked which boosts his speed further and also gives him the armoured arm which has the power to one shot Yuji with a direct hit. And yet despite Choso arguably being faster than Yuji at this point and having the ability to one shot him (sound familiar?), Yuji can still hold his own in CQC while only using one arm and actually has the advantage for most of the fight, only losing because Choso tricked him with the blood armor.

Idk what you think this means, no one's denying that Yuji is skilled just not skilled enough to never get hit.

Actually it does mean that because he avoided getting hit by Yuta for most of the fight and only got fataly stabbed when Rika showed up

proof? And don't just bring up 215 again after you dropped those points and we've moved on from them lmfao

And you agreed that Yuji can keep up with her lol

Maki never blocked it with her sword

I know, already corrected myself

Also, prove Maki and Yuji's durability is comparable to suggest Yuji would one-shot with BF.

They takes similair damage from Sukuna's slashes (the only difference between these two Sukunas is a single sould punch)

 

[Rosa]

Assuming he can keep up with Maki in speed at all (which you agreed he can), he would be able to avoid getting hit and also attack.

Being in the same realm of speed as someone doesn't mean you can fight them without ever getting hit, idk where you draw the line there. By that same logic Maki would never get hit either, no one in JJK would get hit unless it's a speed blitz to you.

Look at the Choso fight, Choso in base and with FRS was comparable to Yuji, he then uses FRS stacked which boosts his speed further and also gives him the armoured arm which has the power to one shot Yuji with a direct hit. And yet despite Choso arguably being faster than Yuji at this point and having the ability to one shot him (sound familiar?), Yuji can still hold his own in CQC while only using one arm and actually has the advantage for most of the fight, only losing because Choso tricked him with the blood armor.

Yuji got amped here, and if Yuji is fighting someone where he's not getting hit at all but hitting them then that's just proof he's faster. What do you think combat speed is if not literally that

Actually it does mean that because he avoided getting hit by Yuta for most of the fight and only got fataly stabbed when Rika showed up

So? Yuta was holding back by your own omission, so we can't say Yuta was attacking at speeds greater than Yuji's own.

And you agreed that Yuji can keep up with her lol

Do you think having the speed to not get blitzed by someone means you can dodge EVERY attack they throw whilst landing 7 of your own? What kind of standard is this, you're being incredibly bad faith.

They takes similair damage from Sukuna's slashes (the only difference between these two Sukunas is a single sould punch)

What's the basis to say it's the same damage? They both draw blood, that's it. Sukuna also doesn't try as hard against Yuji and that "one soul punch" knocked Sukuna out of the zone (hence why there's no RCT).

 

[Giannysmag]

 

[LIGHTYW]

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