Jujutsu Kaisen Discussion Page #1

[Panache_x]

The light passes because Gojo needs light. The Infinity is programmed to stop dangerous things, not useful things.

So practically, you're saying Gojo sorts Light and finds it useful. This sorting is done via what means?

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

So practically, you're saying Gojo sorts Light and finds it useful. This sorting is done via what means?

What do you mean?

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Arguments appears non-sequitur tbh, unless you are arguing this is a speed feat.

You should probably substantiate your claim in the future.

It's not at all a non-sequitur. You are claiming that Gojo's infinity is inherently manually triggered by Gojo and reliant on his perception. If Gojo is sent to a timeless void and can still utilize infinity against targets that can move in a timeless dimension, it means his infinity must be passive. Unless you think Gojo can naturally exist and function in a timeless void and is thus conjuring it to protect from the skeletons, then the conclusion is pretty simple. It's made clear in the scene that the reason Gojo is protected is due to Infinity.

 

[Arkenis]

I would say Gojo probably can’t block out light as that would be photons and he can’t interact with sub atomic particles iirc

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

You should probably substantiate your claim in the future.

It's not at all a non-sequitur. You are claiming that Gojo's infinity is inherently manually triggered by Gojo and reliant on his perception. If Gojo is sent to a timeless void and can still utilize infinity against targets that can move in a timeless dimension, it means his infinity must be passive. Unless you think Gojo can naturally exist and function in a timeless void and is thus conjuring it to protect from the skeletons, then the conclusion is pretty simple. It's made clear in the scene that the reason Gojo is protected is due to Infinity.

I think any character can exist and function in the Prison Realm's sort of 'timeless' void. Considering that regular prisoners are expected to commit suicide.

In fact, a Jump GIGA special mentions that if normal people could freely enter and leave the Prison Realm, they could exploit its properties and use it as a cryogenic chamber:

Time stops? Possibility of Cold Sleep Based on one theory, the subspace inside Prison Realm Boundary is not bound by the law of time. If you can go in and out (easily), the so-called cold sleep becomes possible. To the people who are interested, why don’t you give it a try? [..] T/N : cold sleep : cryonics or cryopreservation of a whole body

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I think any character can exist and function in the Prison Realm's sort of 'timeless' void. Considering that regular prisoners are expected to commit suicide.

In fact, a Jump GIGA special mentions that if normal people could freely enter and leave the Prison Realm, they could exploit its properties and use it as a cryogenic chamber:

Time stops? Possibility of Cold Sleep Based on one theory, the subspace inside Prison Realm Boundary is not bound by the law of time. If you can go in and out (easily), the so-called cold sleep becomes possible. To the people who are interested, why don’t you give it a try? [..] T/N : cold sleep : cryonics or cryopreservation of a whole body

I think there are a bunch of holes in this logic. To start, Kenjaku is not necessarily claiming someone can commit suicide in the realm, he's simply positing that it's the only conceivable way one could be removed the realm. In fact, it's very easy to imply the opposite given the evidence you presented:

- Your cryo argument falls a bit flat for you because of A.) People cannot easily enter and exit, and B.) Cryosleep would imply no perception. The whole point is that someone could use it as a cryo method because time (cause and effect succession) would not be active and thus instead of being frozen via temperature, you'd simply be frozen via time.

This is clearly referenced by Kenjaku telling Gojo "goodnight" upon sealing him, and the fact that when Gojo was sealed, the cube itself awakens and opens its eyes as it drops from Limitless being active and we see Gojo is clearly capable of movement/speech/and thought. Something that Kenjaku was clearly not anticipating as he said Gojo would be sleeping for hundreds to thousands of years. There is no point in between being placed in a timeless dimension and when Kenjaku nullified his movement and cursed energy to seal him, that Gojo could have just decided to activate limitless. This was clearly something Kenjaku had no idea about and even Gojo comments on the dimension not having time, while literally being placed in an infinity bubble with the skeletons trying to get to him.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

I think there are a bunch of holes in this logic. To start, Kenjaku is not necessarily claiming someone can commit suicide in the realm, he's simply positing that it's the only conceivable way one could be removed the realm. In fact, it's very easy to imply the opposite given the evidence you presented:

- Your cryo argument falls a bit flat for you because of A.) People cannot easily enter and exit, and B.) Cryosleep would imply no perception. The whole point is that someone could use it as a cryo method because time (cause and effect succession) would not be active and thus instead of being frozen via temperature, you'd simply be frozen via time.

This is clearly referenced by Kenjaku telling Gojo "goodnight" upon sealing him, and the fact that when Gojo was sealed, the cube itself awakens and opens its eyes as it drops from Limitless being active and we see Gojo is clearly capable of movement/speech/and thought. Something that Kenjaku was clearly not anticipating as he said Gojo would be sleeping for hundreds to thousands of years. There is no point in between being placed in a timeless dimension and when Kenjaku nullified his movement and cursed energy to seal him, that Gojo could have just decided to activate limitless. This was clearly something Kenjaku had no idea about and even Gojo comments on the dimension not having time, while literally being placed in an infinity bubble with the skeletons trying to get to him.

Gojo is not the first occupant of the Prison Realm. The fact that it got cleared up means that previous occupiers managed to take their own life.
Not only does Kenjaku know about how the Prison Realm functions (such as one occupant at a time), but the Jump GIGA entry mentions that the skeletons are what remains of previous occupants of the prison realm.

The hypothetical is based on what would happen if people can easily enter and leave the prison realm; this is not a failing of the hypothetical.
Consciously leaving the prison realm implies perception. In which case, the analogy with a cryo chamber would be about not aging or needing nourishment. The comparison with a cryo chamber would also prove that it is not a true timeless void, as time should not progress on the outside thus someone from the inside shouldn't be able to exploit it in the way Jump GIGA stated.

You are extrapolating too much from "goodnight" before sealing someone, there is no clear reference of what you said.
Kenjaku said that the Prison Realm is temporarily umovable since it will require time to 'process' Gojo. It seems to be a property of the Prison Realm for strong Sorcerers (added as a plot device). Otherwise if it got heavier because of Limitless, then Gojo can keep Limitless indefinitely and Kenjaku wouldn't just assume temporary 'processing'.

Considering that people who got processed managed to end their own life, then they can function and exist within.

Also, we don't assume infinite or immeasurable speed based on timeless voids anyway; sometimes fiction allows normal people to move freely within, and that is assuming that Gojo's perception of time wasn't just warped. The skeletons can simply move slowly toward Gojo (and other prisoners), and Gojo could've simply kept them at bay with Limitless.

 

[Shey]

Shadow makes the most sense to me

 

[Duedate8898]

Infinity being something passive in nature, should deal with things faster than Gojo just fine. Mainly because going off any other technique in the series, all Gojo has done is set conditions for its passive nature to come into effect. Gojo saying that the process is now automatic would mean he doesn't have to consciously or subconsciously maintain the parameters of the techinque, that's just its nature. All he has to do is subconciously keep the techinque itself going.

Like a loop command, he doesn't need to keep account of the variables he already plugged in.

The reason why Limitless probably fails once you reach infinite or irrelevant speed is just because as the techinque is explained it wouldn't be able to slow down anything to a degree that would stop it from touching him.

 

[Arkenis]

I think any character can exist and function in the Prison Realm's sort of 'timeless' void. Considering that regular prisoners are expected to commit suicide.

In fact, a Jump GIGA special mentions that if normal people could freely enter and leave the Prison Realm, they could exploit its properties and use it as a cryogenic chamber:

Time stops? Possibility of Cold Sleep Based on one theory, the subspace inside Prison Realm Boundary is not bound by the law of time. If you can go in and out (easily), the so-called cold sleep becomes possible. To the people who are interested, why don’t you give it a try? [..] T/N : cold sleep : cryonics or cryopreservation of a whole body

ngl the skeletons are likely the ones who committed suicide.

 

[Panache_x]

What do you mean?

You said Light pass cause it's useful. To discern it's useful, Gojo has to sort it. Light has no mass, so what exactly did he sort or filter it by.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

You said Light pass cause it's useful. To discern it's useful, Gojo has to sort it. Light has no mass, so what exactly did he sort or filter it by.

Speed?

 

[Arkenis]

Since we're on this topic of it being passive, if Gojo got mind controlled, would it turn off or would it stay on?

 

[PowerToScale]

Since we're on this topic of it being passive, if Gojo got mind controlled, would it turn off or would it stay on?

If he is mind controlled, it would probably depend on the controller to have him keep it on or off and change his protocols for it.

 

[Panache_x]

Speed?

Would that be possible?
Cause from what I understand, he needs mass and shape. 50kg moving at 300m/s would be deemed a threat. 5kg with a spike shape moving a certain speed would be deemed a threat. Haven't really interpreted him sorting based on speed along. Nevertheless, if we agree that he sorts it himself with his brain, and he's able to sort light fast enough, that'll be giving him SoL Perception speed.

 

[PowerToScale]

Would that be possible?
Cause from what I understand, he needs mass and shape. 50kg moving at 300m/s would be deemed a threat. 5kg with a spike shape moving a certain speed would be deemed a threat. Haven't really interpreted him sorting based on speed along. Nevertheless, if we agree that he sorts it himself with his brain, and he's able to sort light fast enough, that'll be giving him SoL Perception speed.

it was stated that he determines things based on speed, mass and shape. He also does through chemical components to with poisons, although he said it was hard to do as a 17 year old and is not yet confirmed if he managed to master that part too.

 

[Panache_x]

it was stated that he determines things based on speed, mass and shape. He also does through chemical components to with poisons, although he said it was hard to do as a 17 year old and is not yet confirmed if he managed to master that part too.

This, I am aware of. The issue is can he filter based on speed alone without mass or shape.

 

[DeathNoodles]

This, I am aware of. The issue is can he filter based on speed alone without mass or shape.

His Infinity can block sound-based attacks made by Jogo, and sound has no mass or any actual shape.

However, he also takes Cursed Energy into consideration for blocking attacks/objects, and the sound attack also came from one of the attacks of a Cursed Spirit like Jogo (with Cursed Spirits being completely comprised of Cursed energy), so it's also quite possible that he was able to block such as massless attack because it has Cursed energy within them as well.

 

[Panache_x]

His Infinity can block sound-based attacks made by Jogo, and sound has no mass or any actual shape.

However, he also takes Cursed Energy into consideration for blocking attacks/objects, and the sound attack also came from one of the attacks of a Cursed Spirit like Jogo (with Cursed Spirits being completely comprised of Cursed energy), so it's also quite possible that he was able to block such as massless attack because it has Cursed energy within them as well.

Sounds possess mass actually, just negligible. And they do actually possess shape if I'm recalling correctly.
Also, Gojo didn't block out Jogo's sounds, he Heard them.

And yes, your other Ideology might be just right because the sounds later on exploded.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Sounds possess mass actually, just negligible. And they do actually possess shape if I'm recalling correctly.

That varies depending on the studies you're looking at actually. Some studies say sound carries mass, but some other studies say they don't have mass period. But from what I can recall, sound are essentially vibrations, and the vibrations themselves do not possess any actual mass.

As for shape, sounds don't truly have shapes. They have a geometry and curvature, sure... But saying sounds have shapes is like saying space-time continuum have shapes... Sure, it seems like they technically have "shape" in a way, but it's not the same sense of shape as circles and squares like we as humans know it.

Also, Gojo didn't block out Jogo's sounds, he Heard them.

He blocked them as an attack in the anime, and anime can be used as secondary canon as established by the previous thread now.

Anyways, I'm only bringing up the sound bit because that's the best feat I've seen from Gojo blocking "massless" objects as of yet (and, as you've mentioned, some studies for sound having mass or not varies, with similar found sound having shape, so even that is arguable).

 

[Panache_x]

That varies depending on the studies you're looking at actually. Some studies say sound carries mass, but some other studies say they don't have mass period. But from what I can recall, sound are essentially vibrations, and the vibrations themselves do not possess any actual mass.

Lol, I don't think such a fundamental topic would have two interpretations in Physics

He blocked them as an attack in the anime, and anime can be used as secondary canon as established by the previous thread now.

That's Wrong actually. The anime version played out same way the Manga did. He heard it then it exploded. He seemingly Teleported out then comended Jogo on how he mixed up Sounds and Explosives.

 

[Shey]

Sounds possess mass actually, just negligible.

Exact same thing can be said for light

 

[Panache_x]

Exact same thing can be said for light

Elaborate

 

[DeathNoodles]

Lol, I don't think such a fundamental topic would have two interpretations in Physics

I was talking about certain studies in the past, and especially this study (when opening PDF in Browser), that described the sound as "massless". However, the first two studies I've linked are quite old, and the last study I've linked didn't delve too much on "mass-less sound-waves" (quite strange, considering the last study I've linked was posted on 2022), compared to the other studies describing sound have "negative mass" and "negative gravity", so I guess the newer research caused a bit of a split in opinions.

But, considering there are more articles showing off the sound waves possessing negative mass and negative gravity, I guess you can consider them having "mass" (but negative) as more likely to be accurate in that sense. XD

That's Wrong actually. The anime version played out same way the Manga did. He heard it then it exploded. He seemingly Teleported out then comended Jogo on how he mixed up Sounds and Explosives.

Ah, my mistake. I might've mixed up Jogo having "sounds and explosives" attack, and Gojo blocking it showing he can block sound (when it's also possible that he might've dodged it with his Teleportation). XD

However, Gojo definitely appears to be able to block out heat with his Infinity at least. In multiple occasions, when Jogo sent fire-based and heat-based attacks towards Gojo, Gojo implied that Jogo's attacks was ineffective due to his Infinity.

If I recall correctly, I don't think heat itself has mass (Unless there are newer peer-reviewed scientific studies that suggests that heat also has mass as well).

If it turns out heat doesn't have mass (and I'm pretty sure heat doesn't have shape either), then I guess that's the best feat "massless" object/attack Gojo has blocked with his Infinity?

 

[Panache_x]

I was talking about certain studies in the past, and especially this study (when opening PDF in Browser), that described the sound as "massless". However, the first two studies I've linked are quite old, and the last study I've linked didn't delve too much on "mass-less sound-waves" (quite strange, considering the last study I've linked was posted on 2022), compared to the other studies describing sound have "negative mass" and "negative gravity", so I guess the newer research caused a bit of a split in opinions.

But, considering there are more articles showing off the sound waves possessing negative mass and negative gravity, I guess you can consider them having "mass" (but negative) as more likely to be accurate in that sense. XD

Ah, my mistake. I might've mixed up Jogo having "sounds and explosives" attack, and Gojo blocking it showing he can block sound (when it's also possible that he might've dodged it with his Teleportation). XD

However, Gojo definitely appears to be able to block out heat with his Infinity at least. In multiple occasions, when Jogo sent fire-based and heat-based attacks towards Gojo, Gojo implied that Jogo's attacks was ineffective due to his Infinity.

If I recall correctly, I don't think heat itself has mass (Unless there are newer peer-reviewed scientific studies that suggests that heat also has mass as well).

If it turns out heat doesn't have mass (and I'm pretty sure heat doesn't have shape either), then I guess that's the best feat "massless" object/attack Gojo has blocked with his Infinity?

We're in agreement then.The sound stuff c
an't be 100% used

Then...

You're referencing this right? I think there's no issues with it.

 

[DeathNoodles]

We're in agreement then.The sound stuff c
an't be 100% used

Indeed. That was my mistake there for Gojo blocking off sound attacks thing, when it's possible he could've teleported away. ^^;

Then...

You're referencing this right? I think there's no issues with it.

Yeah, that was one of Jogo's heat-based attacks I was referring to. Gojo blocking off the Heat (which I think has no mass or shape) with his Infinity.

 

[Arkenis]

Would that be possible?
Cause from what I understand, he needs mass and shape. 50kg moving at 300m/s would be deemed a threat. 5kg with a spike shape moving a certain speed would be deemed a threat. Haven't really interpreted him sorting based on speed along. Nevertheless, if we agree that he sorts it himself with his brain, and he's able to sort light fast enough, that'll be giving him SoL Perception speed.

it doesnt say he needs all three, he just list ways he can do it.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Gojo is not the first occupant of the Prison Realm. The fact that it got cleared up means that previous occupiers managed to take their own life.

Not necessarily.
A.) You have no idea how they actually take their life.
B.) You are discounting barrier users in combination with curse nullification.

The hypothetical is based on what would happen if people can easily enter and leave the prison realm; this is not a failing of the hypothetical.
Consciously leaving the prison realm implies perception. In which case, the analogy with a cryo chamber would be about not aging or needing nourishment. The comparison with a cryo chamber would also prove that it is not a true timeless void, as time should not progress on the outside thus someone from the inside shouldn't be able to exploit it in the way Jump GIGA stated.

I don't understand your point. You do realize that you can't exit freely from the void correct? You're shifting to a completely different concept now. The point of the cryo example is to display a real world comparison to what one could achieve IF they could exit freely in and out of the barrier. They can't. The literally whole point of them bringing it up is to highlight the dimension is timeless and that motion of the sort should not exist there. In a cryo tank this is done by cooling and preserving the bodies to minimal energy; in a timeless dimension this would ideally be perfect because no motion is possible as only space and matter exist.

You are extrapolating too much from "goodnight" before sealing someone, there is no clear reference of what you said.
Kenjaku said that the Prison Realm is temporarily umovable since it will require time to 'process' Gojo. It seems to be a property of the Prison Realm for strong Sorcerers (added as a plot device). Otherwise if it got heavier because of Limitless, then Gojo can keep Limitless indefinitely and Kenjaku wouldn't just assume temporary 'processing'.

I am not at all you are ignoring evidence. You can't just claim the "goodnight" part was poetic without offering counter evidence. It was inherently tied to sealing him in a timeless dimension and Kenjaku even states he'll awaken in about 100 years to 1000 years. When Gojo is sealed the eyes turn away and the cube goes blank. Flash forward a few seconds later and the cube drops and sprouts many eyes which is something that completely shocks Kenjaku. So very clearly, Kenjaku was not expecting these results, which is kind of dumb given your argument seeing as no person in history bar Sukuna would be strong enough to give more pause to than Gojo.

Kenjaku was clearly not expecting Gojo to maintain his ability to function within the realm based both on his verbiage, the fact that the realm is timeless, and based on his reaction and the subsequent portrayal of Gojo casually chilling in the realm unbothered. This whole scene highlights Kenjaku grabbing the W but not in the way he imagined with limitless clearly not needing time to function.

Also, we don't assume infinite or immeasurable speed based on timeless voids anyway; sometimes fiction allows normal people to move freely within, and that is assuming that Gojo's perception of time wasn't just warped. The skeletons can simply move slowly toward Gojo (and other prisoners), and Gojo could've simply kept them at bay with Limitless.

Gojo is not the first occupant of the Prison Realm. The fact that it got cleared up means that previous occupiers managed to take their own life.
Not only does Kenjaku know about how the Prison Realm functions (such as one occupant at a time), but the Jump GIGA entry mentions that the skeletons are what remains of previous occupants of the prison realm.

The hypothetical is based on what would happen if people can easily enter and leave the prison realm; this is not a failing of the hypothetical.
Consciously leaving the prison realm implies perception. In which case, the analogy with a cryo chamber would be about not aging or needing nourishment. The comparison with a cryo chamber would also prove that it is not a true timeless void, as time should not progress on the outside thus someone from the inside shouldn't be able to exploit it in the way Jump GIGA stated.

You are extrapolating too much from "goodnight" before sealing someone, there is no clear reference of what you said.
Kenjaku said that the Prison Realm is temporarily umovable since it will require time to 'process' Gojo. It seems to be a property of the Prison Realm for strong Sorcerers (added as a plot device). Otherwise if it got heavier because of Limitless, then Gojo can keep Limitless indefinitely and Kenjaku wouldn't just assume temporary 'processing'.

Considering that people who got processed managed to end their own life, then they can function and exist within.

You haven;t provided evidence as to why this is the case, especially when the function of the thing directly compares it to a method utilized for slowing all motion and energy of the body. It even uses the Kanji for "Cold Sleep" (calling back to Geto saying "goodnight") which denotes both physical and conscious cessation.

Japanese
「じょうぶつ ゆる えいえ ろう 成仏許さぬ永遠の牢獄 獄門疆 じかん と 時間が止まる!? かのうせい コールドスリープの可能性 いっせつ ごくもんきょうないぶ くうかん じかん 一説によると、獄門疆内部の亜空間は時間の法 そく しば なか 則に縛られないという。 つまるところこの中に でい 出入りできれば、いわゆるコールドスリープが あなた かのう こと 可能になるという事。 ご興味御有りの貴方は、 ぜひ 是非トライしてみてはいかがだろう? データ
English
"Jobutsu yuru eierou, an eternal prison that does not allow one to attain enlightenment. Time stops!? The possibility of cold sleep." It is said that subspace is not bound by the laws of time.In the end, if you can go in and out of this subspace, you will be able to go into a so-called cold sleep.If you are interested, please try it by all means.

Also, we don't assume infinite or immeasurable speed based on timeless voids anyway; sometimes fiction allows normal people to move freely within, and that is assuming that Gojo's perception of time wasn't just warped. The skeletons can simply move slowly toward Gojo (and other prisoners), and Gojo could've simply kept them at bay with Limitless.

The skeletons can move in the realm because they have become curses and can no longer escape the cycle of Samsara which is what is meant by ""Jobutsu yuru eierou, an eternal prison that does not allow one to attain enlightenment.". Furthermore, they've also become curses which exists in an abstract realm outside of time, so I don't see why them moving in the realm as curses would have to do with when they were human. We have no clue how they killed themselves so it's an argument from ignorance to use this as evidence for the claim "people can just move and think in this timeless void that is called cold sleep".

 

[Duedate8898]

This, I am aware of. The issue is can he filter based on speed alone without mass or shape.

We just don't know really is the true response to that. But to make an educated guess, it should be mentioned that Gojo also accounts for cursed energy with his infinity. Something like light could just be ignored since by all rights light lacks anything that could make it a threat to him.

 

[Arkenis]

We just don't know really is the true response to that. But to make an educated guess, it should be mentioned that Gojo also accounts for cursed energy with his infinity. Something like light could just be ignored since by all rights light lacks anything that could make it a threat to him.

Then would attacks that utilize natural sunlight just be able to neg him?

 

[Duedate8898]

I don't know, which is why I said that's the true response. I think it unlikely since that would defeat the whole point of the limitless techinque without exploiting any of the actual flaws we know of it, but its possible.

 

[Sakamaki_Fuji]

Dunno if this will help but Hanami's mind manipulation only worked on Gojo because Infinity was down

 

[Catpija]

Infinity can block cursed energy, which can interact with type 2 infos. Shouldn't that mean its possible that Infinity work on information level, thus can defend from anything below and equal to IM2?

 

[Arkenis]

Infinity can block cursed energy, which can interact with type 2 infos. Shouldn't that mean its possible that Infinity work on information level, thus can defend from anything below and equal to IM2?

Yeah but considering how he used to struggle with poisonous objects it would seem it doesn't operate as such. like quantum stuff should be able to get past,

 

[Shey]

The Poison thingy barely even makes sense in the context of the manga itself.
Not like it doesn't have mass ,shape or speed.
Obviously there's a medium carrying it,wether it be Liquid ,solid or gas which Gojo may very well have no problem with identifying.
It needs more context on why poisons were difficult for him, we will most likely never get the answer to that unfortunately

 

[Arkenis]

The Poison thingy barely even makes sense in the context of the manga itself.
Not like it doesn't have mass ,shape or speed.
Obviously there's a medium carrying it,wether it be Liquid ,solid or gas which Gojo may very well have no problem with identifying.
It needs more context on why poisons were difficult for him, we will most likely never get the answer to that unfortunately

i think distinguishing poison from non poison is harder for him since he's not a chemist lmao. if u look it shows us the elements involved with some poison when talking about it

 

[Shey]

i think distinguishing poison from non poison is harder for him since he's not a chemist lmao. if u look it shows us the elements involved with some poison when talking about it

So I guess that means he's choosing what infinity doesn't target?
Or does target?

 

[Arkenis]

So I guess that means he's choosing what infinity doesn't target?
Or does target?

no more like imagine if someone's comming at him with a knife but theres's some liquid in it or on it, he can't sense if its poison.

 

[Alexander]

Is more easy to Say that is better to just say''no headcanons''unless we are gonna argue with 0 proof about things faster than gojo reactions being able to pass infinity

 

[Arkenis]

The acknowledgment and acceptance for this needs to be done, where are the mods when needed https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:PowerToScale/Jujutsu_Kaisen#Type_2