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Joker vs His Mom

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Afaik Bayo's time manip works on a higher level than what Joker's been shown to resist, so considering how liberally she uses said time manip, this feels almost stompy.

Barring time manip, what are Bayo's wincons?
 
How strong is Bayo's time manipulation? SEES caused and maintained a planetary timeloop, which Joker should be comparable to, and the fact that he already has a time stop resistance feat.
 
^^^ Well that changes things. I've heard that Bayo's time manip potency is ridiculous though. Care to elaborate?
 
Milly Rocking Bandit said:
Alright, Bayonetta will definitely win if she gets that off. But can she deal with thought-based mindhax that afflicts the soul, and information?
Click to expand...
She has resistance to Mind and Soulhax and Joker doesn't exactly scale to Yaldy in potency in his High 4-C form.

Joker has a lot of opening moves, and anything that can be dodged basically means a win for Bayo, so i'm betting she wins more often than not.
 
Joker's mindhax and soul hax above baseline, being able to afflict shadows that have a High 4-C resistance in this key. Similarly, Psychokinetic skills scale above this.

Dodging Joker's moves is going to be a very strenuous task, as Persona spells have no travel speed, as shown in P3, and in P3: The Movie.
 
You can't have High 4-C resistance, what

Resistance potency doesn't scale to tiers, it scales to the number of people affected
 
Well I don't know if this means anything, but I'm pretty sure Bayo's time slow overrided Aesir's if that's any helpful info. I may be wrong on this though.
 
Unless the verse gas a mechanic were AP and hax are linked (like with Digimon minus a few exceptions), we don't really scale AP to Hax.
 
Joker doesn't have time slow. I think Bayonetta can definitely dodge Joker's attacks. Not only will he be affected by Witch Time which automatically slows all of his moves, she's also a very agile and more dodgy type of character. Keep in mind that the more she dodges, the longer Witch Time will stay, benefiting Bayonetta.
 
@DatOneWeeb that isn't the issue here. Joker has resistance time manip. The disscussion going on right now is asking does Bayo's time manip override or overpower Joker's resistance.
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
Ubless the verse gas a mechanic were AP and hax are linked (like with Digimon minus a few exceptions), we don't really scale AP to Hax.
Click to expand...
@DatOneWeeb that only matters if what Dragon said applies.
 
Is there any reason why Joker can't use Third Eye to, at least in part, negate the effect of Bayonetta's Witch Time by upping his reaction speed? Furthermore, how does overpowering Time Stop resist work? Does the Time Stop have a reduced, but still very present, effect or does the Time Stop just blow past the resistance entirely? If Third Eye and Time Stop resist work how I think they do, here's how I see this going down:

Joker: Opens up the fight with an attack, which Bayonetta should be able to dodge

Bayonetta: Engages Witch Time, slowing Joker

Joker: Uses Third Eye, which Joker *should* be able to activate with a thought, along with Sukukaja (speed buff), which synergizes with Joker's Time Stop resist to, more or less, negate Bayonetta's Witch Time

Joker: Switches to a Persona with Tetrakarn and Makarakarn to give him some breathing room (which his intelligence should allow for)

After that, Joker Uses Sleuthing Mastery to reveal that Bayonetta doesn't (or at least she shouldn't) have any resistance to Death Manip, at which point Joker should win.

Even without Death Manip, I still say this is a win. Just replace Sleuthing Mastery with Joker spamming concentrated (Joker should also be able to use this skill with a thought since it's just, well, concentrating), amped/boosted Megidolaons until Bayonetta dies. And Bayonetta shouldn't be able to retaliate because Tetrakarn and Makarakarn should cover everything in Bayonetta's arsenal.

And, given that she just slowed Joker's movement down to a crawl, I think Joker would take her seriously enough to resort to either of these strategies. However, there is the possibility of Bayonetta not wasting any time going for the kill after using Witch Time but before Third Eye kicks in, but given her cocky nature, I don't think that's very likely.

Joker takes this 8/10 times, I say.
 
Bayonetta's Witch Time literally negates people who surpass time itself. Joker's resistances won't work here. Third Eye is something I have never seen Joker use in combat. Even if we say it boosts his reactions, Witch Time heavily overrides it as an early game Bayonetta's Witch Time makes people look like they're frozen in time. Her Witch Time has then gotten stronger. Any move Joker sends out will not only be easier to dodge, but add it to Witch Time. Joker's best bet is either death manipulation or sleep manipulation since Bayonetta resists the others. But even that's going to be very hard when Bayonetta is already extremely agile and can dodge large attacks. I just see Bayonetta using a finisher and BFR Joker.
 
First of all, I was mistaken about the whole Sleuthing Mastery thing. That takes effect at the beginning of the battle, not in the middle.

Secondly, Third Eye not being used in-battle is game mechanics, because it'd be hard to incorporate and balance properly. But, Joker has shown that Third Eye decreases the speed at which he views time while increasing his accuracy with darts, which can probably be applied to in-battle skills. Joker should be able to combine this with Heat Riser/Debilitate to raise Joker's stats while lowering Bayo's.

Thirdly, Sleep and Death Manip spells don't technically function as attacks. They spawn at their target's location instantaneously and take effect instantaneously, which is why you never see characters dodging Status ailments/Instant Death spells.

Lastly, the way Status ailments and Death Manip work in Persona is that pretty much everything in-verse AT LEAST resists with varying degrees of effectiveness, if they don't just nullify such effects entirely. The whole "MISS" deal with those kinds of spells is pure game mechanics. Evasion does not effect your resistance to Death/Sleep Manip at all.

Against a foe with no resistance, Death Spells WILL land and WILL take effect. Then, save for some sort of ability like Survival Trick, which saves Joker from Insta-Kill once per battle, that should be the fight won.

But, given what I've been told in regards to Witch Time and Joker's resistance, or lack thereof, I'm going to lower Joker's chances of winning from and 8/10 to a 7/10.

Voting Joker btw.

EDIT: How does Bayonetta have BFR? I've only played about 2/3 of the first game, so I apologize for my ignorance, but this could decide the fight.

If it works anything like normal BFR, Joker avoids it by teleporting out of wherever he is via MetaNav, then back in once whatever causes the BFR is over and done with (in the anime, Joker is shown to be able to exit palaces using the MetaNav without actually being outside the palace).

As a matter of fact, the MetaNav could be used like this in a variety of ways in this fight, such as avoiding Umbran Climaxes or getting some breathing room to come up with a plan of attack. Or does that count as self-BFR?
 
Bayo has Self-BFR to Puragito and she has BFR to Inferno. I dont exactly think MetaNav would be able to get him in or out of either of those places.
 
I would like to know this as well.

I, too, would like to know. If it's in anywhere other than reality (it won't be), Purgatorio, or the Metaverse, there's no guarantee the BFR/Self-BFR will work for either of them, since Inferno, Purgatorio, Paradiso, and the Metaverse are all separate planes of existence iirc. And I don't remember any BFR in places like Paradiso.

PLEASE, if anyone knows better, please post it and give a source. The setting and the rules regarding can all be important factors in a fight.

EDIT: Grammar
 
"Secondly, Third Eye not being used in-battle is game mechanics, because it'd be hard to incorporate and balance properly. But, Joker has shown that Third Eye decreases the speed at which he views time while increasing his accuracy with darts, which can probably be applied to in-battle skills. Joker should be able to combine this with Heat Riser/Debilitate to raise Joker's stats while lowering Bayo's."

>That still won't do very well against Bayonetta's Witch Time. Her's is almost to a complete stop, considering how fast these characters are, Bayonetta has all the time in the world to end the fight quickly. Joker have added reactions don't do jack here, especially since Bayonetta is already nimble during combat.

"Thirdly, Sleep and Death Manip spells don't technically function as attacks. They spawn at their target's location instantaneously and take effect instantaneously, which is why you never see characters dodging Status ailments/Instant Death spells."

>Sleep manipulation are moves that come on the ground. If Bayonetta sees it, which is likely due to how much slower it will be, she can easy just jump on a wall. Death manipulation is the same case, only with having the doll in front of you. Still going to be heavily slower than Bayonetta.

"Lastly, the way Status ailments and Death Manip work in Persona is that pretty much everything in-verse AT LEAST resists with varying degrees of effectiveness, if they don't just nullify such effects entirely."

>No, this is heavily false. Shadows don't have resistances to aliments unless there are special shadows who do, but they nullify those anyways. Everything in verse does not resist it, if your evidence is that aliments don't always work, that's an obvious game mechanic as every single RPG does that. Paper Mario, Dragon Quest, Pokémon, Xenoblade, etc. This isn't just for Persona.

"The whole "MISS" deal with those kinds of spells is pure game mechanics. Evasion does not effect your resistance to Death/Sleep Manip at all."

>No, but it is dodgeable.

"Against a foe with no resistance, Death Spells WILL land and WILL take effect. Then, save for some sort of ability like Survival Trick, which saves Joker from Insta-Kill once per battle, that should be the fight won."

>Going to be very difficult due to how much faster Bayonetta will be at that point. The more she dodges, the better Witch Time will be. If Bayonetta ever slips up and dies, then Red Hot Shot immediately revives her and lets back to fight. She uses summons to finish her opponents anyways.

"If it works anything like normal BFR, Joker avoids it by teleporting out of wherever he is via MetaNav, then back in once whatever causes the BFR is over and done with (in the anime, Joker is shown to be able to exit palaces using the MetaNav without actually being outside the palace)."

>No. The MetaNav does not stop BFR. All it does it take you to the MetaVerse, but in order to do that Joker needs to find a distorted someone which at that point is outside forces, but even IF he goes into the MetaVerse, that doesn't mean when he leaves he's back at where the fight was at, he'd only return to where Bayonetta sent her.

"As a matter of fact, the MetaNav could be used like this in a variety of ways in this fight, such as avoiding Umbran Climaxes or getting some breathing room to come up with a plan of attack. Or does that count as self-BFR?"

>That's very out of character for Joker, never has he shown using that. Hell, SBA means this fight isn't in the MetaVerse.
 
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