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Joker vs His Mom

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Crimson Shadow101 said:
I'm pretty sure you have a right to be cocky when your friend dies and you can just take a trip to hell to save her and walk out like nothing ever happened.
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Easy there, I never said she didn't have a right to be cocky. I just tend to not like cocky characters much.
 
True enough, but Joker doesn't let it cloud his judgement. He knows when to cut the shit and fight seriously, too. I haven't seen one time in Bayonetta 1 where she stopped playing with her enemies like a cat and just ended things. After all, that's why she lost this match in the first place. That's what sets Joker apart from Bayonetta in my mind.
 
Smashkabab said:
True enough, but Joker doesn't let it cloud his judgement. He knows when to cut the shit and fight seriously, too. I haven't seen one time in Bayonetta 1 where she stopped playing with her enemies like a cat and just ended things. After all, that's why she lost this match in the first place That's what sets him apart from Bayonetta in my mind.
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Bayo wasn't ******* with Jubileus, Aesir, Loptr, Balder (Bayo 1), Jeanne, or Gammorah (at the beginning of the fight). Bayo doesn't joke around with people she knows can kill her or can give her a sweat.
 
Bayo wasn't ******* with Jubileus, Aesir, Loptr, Balder, Jeanne, or Gammorah (at the beginning of the fight). Bayo doesn't joke around with people she knows can kill her or can give her a sweat.

Good point. Maybe I just sympathize more with Joker.
 
DatOneWeeb said:
Okay, so I might have found more evidence for Bayonetta to negate time resistances. I can't reveal who my source is, but according to them, there is a gateway that leads to a primordial world cut off from the flow of time--a place called Muspelheim. (Under The Journal's Echoes, Unknown Entrance.) So, Muspelheim is a place that is cut off from time. Yet, Bayonetta is still capable of using Witch Time against enemies while inside.
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Are you sure Musphelheim is properly cut off from time, and isn't just a separate dimension? Because if it is just a separate dimension, this is the Aesir situation all over again. If it's properly cut off from time, Alice, who can travel through time freely, becomes Joker's go-to Persona for this fight. She won't have the same offensive capability as her SMT version, but she should still be capable of protecting Joker from Bayonetta until Witch Time wears off/Using Die for Me! on her own.

By the way, does anyone know what Bayonetta's wincon is again?

EDIT: Just found the Unknown Entrance journal in @DatOneWeeb's link. Yeah, it's well and truly cut off from time. Looks like we're looking at Alice's ability to travel through time for Joker's potential wincon.
 
It's blatantly stated that there is no time there, as being cut off from time means it just isn't there to begin with. Traveling through time seems OOC, I've never seen Joker be able to do this ever.
 
It's an SMT thing. I knew it was probably a long shot, but I had to give it a go at negating Bayonetta's Time Manip. Oh well.

Could Joker use Forget on Bayo to make her forget how to use Witch Time and summons in the first place? If so, that's probably gonna be Joker's wincon. After that, without the majority of her relevant hax, it should be a stomp. The only things I could see being an issue are her regen and items.

Forget's usages

- Is considered physiological. Therefore, should bypass mind hax resistance

- Afflicted forgets how to use their special skills, both magical and physical

- Afflicted forgets that they have such skills in the first place

- Afflicted forgets where they are. Could be used to manipulate the afflicted into walking into a trap of some sort

Forget's limitations:

- Is classified as both Memory Hax and Power Null. Resistance to either of those might grant resistance to Forget

- Afflicted does not forget how to fight physically. That is to say, melee and guns

- Afflicted does not forget that they SHOULD be fighting

Otherwise, Forget acts just like any other status ailment. If the target does not possess a resistance to either Power Null or Memory Hax, the status ailment WILL land. After that, it's just a question of what it affects.
 
I mean Bayo doesn't have any resistance to Memory Hax, but she has had her memory wiped but didn't forget how to witch time. I don't think witch time is something she's able to just forget how to do.
 
Morgana had no idea how to use his Persona when all off P5's events were set into motion, but he figured it out. Bayonetta should be able to do the same with her witch time. Given time, of course. Time she doesn't have (especially without her summons, because those should follow the same logic as witch time).

I mean, I don't think we actually see her use witch time OR her summons out on that lake, despite that being extremely OoC for her, considering how fond she is of those hax in particular. I say personally that Forget is plausible, but without stronger feats, it can't be relied on as a wincon. I'll keep looking.
 
Er, it states that it's cut off from the flow of time. Not that time is stopping. Meaning time isn't there. Hell, I don't even see anything contradicting this. It's stated that there is no time in this world, and the book has nothing proving it's false. As well as having no visible time moving.
 
I literally said "Cut off from time" Not that time was stopping

Again, stating that it doesn't have time is too vague to fit our timeles void standards, if it did, Bayo and the other Angels would be infinte speed by merely moving in it to begin with.
 
Yeah. Witch time getting nulled is what really brings Bayo down. By the way, is the result of this going on the new forum or is this too stomp-y to be considered a "notable victory"?
 
Don't think Bayo has one. Witch Time getting nulled really killed Bayo's chances. BFR doesn't really work because Joker can see the hands using Third Eye, after which he just runs out of the AoE. Bayo isn't very likely to use BFR anyways because of her attitude regarding enemies that seem weaker than herself. That is; she treats them like toys. Even without Death Hax, Joker should win like 8-10. Other 2-10, Joker trips on a rock or something trying to escape BFR and gets sucked down into Inferno anyway.
 
Smashkabab said:
Don't think Bayo has one. Witch Time getting nulled really killed Bayo's chances. BFR doesn't really work because Joker can see the hands using Third Eye, after which he just runs out of the AoE. Bayo isn't very likely to use BFR anyways because of her attitude regarding enemies that seem weaker than herself. That is; she treats them like toys. Even without Death Hax, Joker should win like 8-10. Other 2-10, Joker trips on a rock or something trying to escape BFR and gets sucked down into Inferno anyway.
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From the way you say it. It sounda like Joker wins everytime
 
Just about. I'm a little tired, sorry.

But yeah, Bayo's wincon is non-existent at the moment. Someone might miraculously come in with a new piece of information that needs to be picked apart, but barring that, Joker wins 10/10 times, this thread gets closed, then either this gets lost forever due to being too stomp-y, or this gets a spot on Joker's notable victories list on the new forum (hopefully).
 
I find the opposing arguments to...not be that good. I don't know how this "vauge", it blatantly says time is cut off. What's vauge about it? The argument that these characters would have infinite speed by this is faulty, because timeless void speed feats are going to be removed.
 
Type 1: "Timeless" Voids: Voids that supposedly lack time but are completely contradicted to be such.

In this case, the contradiction is that Witch Time works. Just because it says "cut off from time" doesn't make it such. It needs to be explicitly shown, not just told. If you want Witch Time working in Musphelheim to be properly recognized in this match, find an explanation as to how Witch Time works when there isn't any time to slow to begin with.

If we just went with whatever scraps of lore the writers decided to throw us instead of using our own brains, a lot of characters would have WAY different stats, hax, and weaknesses.
 
You realize it's a game mechanic. The point is enemies can move in that world. So when fighting these enemies where there is time (because these are just casual enemies), then they shouldn't be affected by Witch Time. Yet they are.

"It needs to be explicitly shown" Ah yes, I have to SHOW time is passing in a world. What kind of argument is that? That's nitpicky as hell. Why would we not use in-game lore. We use lore on many different characters. I fail to see what your point is.
 
"It's a game mechanic"

In which case, your argument for Witch Time working in timeless voids in null since we don't recognize feats based solely on game mechanics because they can't be considered canon.

"Ah yes, I have to SHOW that time is passing in a world." First of all, it's more like you have to show that time DOESN'T pass in Musphelheim. I don't think anyone cares that time is passing in Purgatorio or wherever this is taking place, because it's obvious and doesn't need to be stated. Second, yes. You do have to prove your feat if you want it to be accepted in this thread. It's called Burden of Proof. I don't have to prove or disprove your feat, you do.

"Why would we not use in-game lore?" To answer that, lemme show you the full description of "Timeless" Voids.

Type 1: "Timeless" Voids: "Voids that supposedly lack time but are completely contradicted to be such. Examples: The World of Void in Dragon Ball Super."

THAT is why I want verification for this feat. If the World of Void is supposed to lack time according to the lore, but is contradicted in being such, it being a timeless void is null. The same can, and is, being said for Musphelheim. If you want your feat to be valid, it HAS to have evidence besides one vague snippet of lore from an unknown source afaik.

If, for example, we got a supporting piece of lore that explained that Witch Time is actually spatial manipulation, that would be enough for it to be accepted, and this thread can go on its way to solidly being a Bayonetta win.
 
Wow, you completely missed the point. I'm not arguing Witch Time works in the Timeless Void. I'm saying enemies can move inside that seperate world. You can fight those enemies in other places besides there. And Witch Time works.

Why would I need to prove something that is unnecessary to prove. How am I supposed to prove time isn't passing. When nothing implies time even is passing. There's nothing to prove. Burden of proof doesn't work here. There's you have to disprove time passed other than a blatant game mechanic.

Yeah, you're definitely missing the point. It isn't contradicted. You keep on using the term "vauge", but it's pretty blatant into what it's trying to say, I have no idea what you're even getting at. You yourself admitted that it works, only changing your mind because someone said it's vauge without further reasoning than that, you yourself doing the exact same thing. As of now, the statement isn't contradicted and the book itself needs to be proven wrong to be deemed unreliable. Once again, it's nitpicking.
 
DatOneWeeb said:
I find the opposing arguments to...not be that good. I don't know how this "vauge", it blatantly says time is cut off. What's vauge about it? The argument that these characters would have infinite speed by this is faulty, because timeless void speed feats are going to be removed.
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What's vague is that's literally the only statement that it's supposedly (Though I'm pretty sure that's purgatorio) especially when said statement is contradicted because all four universes, (Heaven, Hell, Purgatorio, and the human world) all have their own space time.

I even showed you that explicitly doesn't fit timeless void standards, they have to show feats that support it.

Mewtwo actually had the same justification for being unaffected by time resistance, and it got rejected https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1110321?useskin=oasis

It's not a feat to vaguely move in a timeless void, doesn't fit our standards, it doesn't give resistance, and end all be all it is not on the file, so you have to make a CRT against this.

This grace is over and it won't get added because of Forum move anyway. I am closing
 
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