Joker the strongest Megaten MC?

[WinsonDetamp]

Is joker really the strongest megaten MC? Mf really outscaled Lucifer, yhvh, etc.
Remember the day back when persona characters were fodders compared to smt characters?
now its the other way around! im still in disbelief...
like theres no way this mf is this strong, hes just a high school kid. like.. compared to other mcs who actually transcended into higher beings, hes just a twerp!

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Why not? The only other feat of this level I can think of is the last bible characters defeating the great will, but I don't think the great will has any feats on the level of Joker

 

[WinsonDetamp]

thats even more concerning

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

No. I have no idea why this keeps being perpetuated. Nanashi is right there, we treat them as relative, if not Nanashi being stronger.

Joker hardly scratched Adam Kadmon, whilst Nanashi can contend with a serious Stephen, although he simply stopped engaging.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

No. I have no idea why this keeps being perpetuated. Nanashi is right there, we treat them as relative, if not Nanashi being stronger.

Joker hardly scratched Adam Kadmon, whilst Nanashi can contend with a serious Stephen, although he simply stopped engaging.

Why is Stephen stronger than adam kadmon? Joker can beat people stronger than adam kadmon in Strikers anyways

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I thought Strikers existed in canon-limbo.

 

[Ss3micah]

I still wonder if Joker could beat Makoto (P3 MC)
Makoto wields the Universe Arcana which is canonically the strongest Arcana and has the full power of the Collective Unconscious
He also beat Nyx who was (in some way) responsible for the creation of the collective unconscious and creation all of the shadows, personas, and archetypes
Plus it takes the Full Weight of the Collective Unconscious to simply suppress Nyx's Psyche and should Nyx be completed all things would end

Not saying P3MC is the strongest thing in SMT, but he should be somewhat comparable to Joker, at least with Universe Canon which in canon and lore is the strongest force in Persona

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Probably. However, P3 being an old game kinda screws him over, tho. Door-kun will probably become as strong as Joker (or somewhere in his level) when the P3Remake comes along... if it ever does happen.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Why is Stephen stronger than adam kadmon? Joker can beat people stronger than adam kadmon in Strikers anyways

I at no point ever even suggested Stephen was stronger.

Strikers isn’t even superior to Royal, just Yaldabaoth.

has the full power of the Collective Unconscious

Never stated anywhere.

He also beat Nyx who was (in some way) responsible for the creation of the collective unconscious and creation all of the shadows, personas, and archetypes

Incorrect. She spurred it’s evolution, she had no manner in creating it. Misinterpretation.

Plus it takes the Full Weight of the Collective Unconscious to simply suppress Nyx's Psyche and should Nyx be completed all things would end

Because the earth collides with the moon.

at least with Universe Canon which in canon and lore is the strongest force in Persona

Never stated anywhere.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I at no point ever even suggested Stephen was stronger.

Strikers isn’t even superior to Royal, just Yaldabaoth.

Why would they only be superior to Yaldabaoth? haru stated the clones they were fighting were likely the most powerful foes they have ever fought, so they would be stronger than adam kadmon. Later into the game, he gains access to the most powerful Personas ever, so the most powerful of those personas would be stronger than anything in Royal. The PT are stated to be at full strength in strikers

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Why would they only be superior to Yaldabaoth? haru stated the clones they were fighting were likely the most powerful foes they have ever fought, so they would be stronger than adam kadmon. Later into the game, he gains access to the most powerful Personas ever, so the most powerful of those personas would be stronger than anything in Royal. The PT are stated to be at full strength in strikers

Strikers is recurrently stated by the directors, promotional material, and interviews, to be the sequel to Persona 5, not Royal.

 

[Ss3micah]

Never stated anywhere.

Statements about the Universe Arcana from Igor

"The power that started it all, as well as the power that will end it all" & "It is the power to bring about a new beginning or the ultimate end" --- The power that created everything and the power that can end everything

"What you've acquired is the power of the universe. Literally, space itself" --- Space being the collective unconscious

"By now, ANY realization is not a miracle to you" & "Nothing is outside the realm of possibility for you now" --- Those with the Universe Arcana can do/achieve anything and Nothing is Impossible to them

And this is Coming from Igor who would have experienced P1 and P2

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Literally, space itself" --- Space being the collective unconscious

He doesn’t say this in-game. Are you referring to the manga?

What you've acquired is the power of the universe.

Universe referring to the Tree of Life, a model of the human heart, which extends up to Kether. However, there’s a layer beyond that of Kether, where Nyarlathotep and Philemon.

Those with the Universe Arcana can do/achieve anything and Nothing is Impossible to them

And at the very same time, he got absolutely obliterated by Nyx and required the pleas of SEES to begin adapting to her attacks, and even then, instead of destroying her, he can only seal her away at the bottom of the Sea of Souls.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Meh, I am in the camp that "Minato/Makoto" is weaker than Joker/Akira/Ren by the virtue of being an older game that didn't have any foreknowledge of the type of shit that SMT & Persona would be reaching. There are only two things that could fix this issue: Atlas saying that Minato/Makoto is equal to Joker/Akira/Ren in some official material or a remake that expands on the Universe Aracna.

 

[Ss3micah]

He doesn’t say this in-game. Are you referring to the manga?

P3 Movie 4

Universe referring to the Tree of Life, a model of the human heart, which extends up to Kether. However, there’s a layer beyond that of Kether, where Nyarlathotep and Philemon.

Oh
And does Joker (P5 and P5R) reach any layer comparable to or higher than Philemon and Nyal?
Wait wouldn't that make P2 Protagonist the strongest then since they beat Nyal who is half of the Collective Unconsciousness?

And at the very same time, he got absolutely obliterated by Nyx and required the pleas of SEES to begin adapting to her attacks, and even then, instead of destroying her, he can only seal her away at the bottom of the Sea of Souls.

Cause Nyx is just that Powerful and she wasn't even at full power as yet given she was still incomplete
Also not too sure if P5 Joker could do any better, P5R Joker... maybe

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

P3 Movie 4

Will have to observe that later, then.

And does Joker (P5 and P5R) reach any layer comparable to or higher than Philemon and Nyal?
Wait wouldn't that make P2 Protagonist the strongest then since they beat Nyal who is half of the Collective Unconsciousness?

P5R, not 5. And no, Kadmon is the source and destination of the Collective Unconscious.

Cause Nyx is just that Powerful and she wasn't even at full power as yet given she was still incomplete
Also not too sure if P5 Joker could do any better, P5R Joker... maybe

No, Nyx was, in-fact, at her full power. That’s precisely why SEES felt the imposing gravity (the moon falling on Earth), whilst Makoto flew into the Collective Unconsciousness. The Fall was in progress.

 

[Ss3micah]

Will have to observe that later, then.

P5R, not 5. And no, Kadmon is the source and destination of the Collective Unconscious.

Damn
So does that make Kadmon the most powerful thing in Persona as of now?

No, Nyx was, in-fact, at her full power. That’s precisely why SEES felt the imposing gravity (the moon falling on Earth), whilst Makoto flew into the Collective Unconsciousness. The Fall was in progress.

I thought that was Nyx's Psyche (which was on earth) calling her body (which is in the moon) down to her.
Did Nyx's body remerge with her Psyche when Makoto fought her?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Damn
So does that make Kadmon the most powerful thing in Persona as of now?

CU is.

I thought that was Nyx's Psyche (which was on earth) calling her body (which is in the moon) down to her.
Did Nyx's body remerge with her Psyche when Makoto fought her?

Essentially. That’s why they felt the gravity. The moon was falling.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

No one in SMT can defeat Matador

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Matador is just built different, you see.

 

[Ss3micah]

So would the scaling chain for the protagonists go like this?

P5R > P2 > P3/P3P > P5 = P4 > P1

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Strikers is recurrently stated by the directors, promotional material, and interviews, to be the sequel to Persona 5, not Royal.

The interview just says its a sequel to Persona 5, not that it isn't a sequel to Royal. That is also 1 person saying it, not all of ATLUS. Not that it matters too much, the example of Joker getting the strongest Personas of all would make it stronger than any persona in the series

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

The interview just says its a sequel to Persona 5, not that it isn't a sequel to Royal. That is also 1 person saying it, not all of ATLUS. Not that it matters too much, the example of Joker getting the strongest Personas of all would make it stronger than any persona in the series

They blatantly suggest a difference, being sure to say Persona 5, and Persona 5 Royal - what you’re doing is arguing semantics when what they’ve said is objective.

All of Atlus doesn’t matter, he’s the director of the game, and will be taken with far more authority than you.

Stronger in relation to Yaldabaoth, nothing more.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

They blatantly suggest a difference, being sure to say Persona 5, and Persona 5 Royal - what you’re doing is arguing semantics when what they’ve said is objective.

All of Atlus doesn’t matter, he’s the director of the game, and will be taken with far more authority than you.

Stronger in relation to Yaldabaoth, nothing more.

Why does that matter at all? He still didn't say it wasn't royal and he would have said "not royal" if it really wasn't canon to royal, and nothing is objective

The director of the game doesn't speak for the whole company. And why would it only be stronger in relation to Yaldabaoth?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Why does that matter at all? He still didn't say it wasn't royal and he would have said "not royal" if it really wasn't canon to royal, and nothing is objective

They blatantly said the sequel to Persona 5, not Royal. You’re ignoring evidence.

The director of the game doesn't speak for the whole company.

This isn’t even worth responding to.

And why would it only be stronger in relation to Yaldabaoth?

Because they reference it in game.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

They blatantly said the sequel to Persona 5, not Royal. You’re ignoring evidence.



Because they reference it in game.

He just says "Strikers is Persona 5's follow-up story." Not that "it is not a sequel to Persona 5 Royal. You're being fooled by the article, the part that says "Despite the timing of this new title almost a year after Royal, Strikers is an official sequel to Persona 5, not Royal. Daisuke Kanada, the game director of Strikers, clarified this during a recent virtual press event for the game" is what thegamer.com said, not Daisuke

This isn’t even worth responding to.

You could have just said "I have no counter to that"

Because they reference it in game.

Referencing Yaldabaoth doesn't mean "most powerful Personas imaginable" and "possess power of the highest class" is only referring to Yaldabaoth

 

[GoldExPoints]

Why is Stephen stronger than adam kadmon? Joker can beat people stronger than adam kadmon in Strikers anyways

What? I don't know anybody in Strikers who's stronger than AK. In fact, I remember Joker and the PT being weaker in Strikers than in Royal because they were rusty.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

What? I don't know anybody in Strikers who's stronger than AK. In fact, I remember Joker and the PT being weaker in Strikers than in Royal because they were rusty.

This is never even stated, Ryuji just said he was rusty, not that he grows a lot weaker. Its explicitly stated they are at full strength

 

[GoldExPoints]

Nanashi is right there

All of the Messiahs actually, but yeah Nanashi

 

[GoldExPoints]

This is never even stated, Ryuji just said he was rusty, not that he grows a lot weaker. Its explicitly stated they are at full strength

Are Tweets even allowed as main evidence for scaling? The Lavenza one I can at least get behind, though "some of" shows he's not the top

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Are Tweets even allowed as main evidence for scaling? The Lavenza one I can at least get behind, though "some of" shows he's not the top

Tweets are official. She said "some of" because there's more than 1, and they're obviously not all equal in power. The strongest Persona in a list of "some of the strongest" would just be the strongest Personas

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Not that "it is not a sequel to Persona 5 Royal. You're being fooled by the article, the part that says "Despite the timing of this new title almost a year after Royal, Strikers is an official sequel to Persona 5, not Royal. Daisuke Kanada, the game director of Strikers, clarified this during a recent virtual press event for the game" is what thegamer.com said, not Daisuke

No. Your own article directly states not Royal.

You could have just said "I have no counter to that"

If you believe that an entire company needs to make a statement to corroborate the director as your argument, then certainly, I have no counter to your incredulity.

Referencing Yaldabaoth doesn't mean "most powerful Personas imaginable" and "possess power of the highest class" is only referring to Yaldabaoth

I’m saying those Personas would only be superior to that of Yaldabaoth. This is completely ignoring the fact that there are obvious character regressions, such as Morgana rejecting being deemed a cat, despite the fact that he willingly accepts this in Royal.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

No. Your own article directly states not Royal.



If you believe that an entire company needs to make a statement to corroborate the director as your argument, then certainly, I have no counter to your incredulity.



I’m saying those Personas would only be superior to that of Yaldabaoth. This is completely ignoring the fact that there are obvious character regressions, such as Morgana rejecting being deemed a cat, despite the fact that he willingly accepts this in Royal.

No. Your own article directly states not Royal.

This doesn't even say "not royal". A continuation of Royal would also be a continuation of Persona 5, so that's not evidence to support it not being a continuation of Royal. Persona 5 Royal is also part of the Persona 5 story since its canon to P5, and its stated in your scan that P5S is a continuation of that story, so you proved me right. There's also several more proof: Ren no longer has the power of the masses, which implies the events of P5R where he got rid of it happened. There are also P5R only concepts brought into P5S, like Futaba going to shujin, showtime attacks, reloadable ammo. It being not a sequel to P5R would have more contradictions because of this

Why would they only be superior to Yaldabaoth? And where did Morgana reject being a cat in Strikers? Where did he accept being a cat in Royal to the point where he could never change his mind

 

[Stillwinston]

No one in SMT can defeat Matador

Red Capote GG

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

This doesn't even say "not royal".

They make distinctions between the both, and blatantly say in a video interview, specifically mentioning Royal.

Persona 5 Royal is also part of the Persona 5 story since its canon to P5, and its stated in your scan that P5S is a continuation of that story, so you proved me right. There's also several more proof: Ren no longer has the power of the masses, which implies the events of P5R where he got rid of it happened.

Once more, they make clear distinction in the interview, nothing you said was proven right at all. You’re simply relying on “not Royal”, when they blatantly just say Persona 5.

There's also several more proof: Ren no longer has the power of the masses, which implies the events of P5R where he got rid of it happened.

It wore off after the fight in 5, but got transferred to Maruki in 5R, which is never mentioned in Strikers.

There are also P5R only concepts brought into P5S, like Futaba going to shujin, showtime attacks, reloadable ammo. It being not a sequel to P5R would have more contradictions because of this

I don’t see how the first is a contradiction. Showtime was in the original 5, hence the fist of justice joke.

You’re free to make a CRT on this, because I’m no longer going in circles.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

They make distinctions between the both, and blatantly say in a video interview, specifically mentioning Royal.



Once more, they make clear distinction in the interview, nothing you said was proven right at all. You’re simply relying on “not Royal”, when they blatantly just say Persona 5.



It wore off after the fight in 5, but got transferred to Maruki in 5R, which is never mentioned in Strikers.



I don’t see how the first is a contradiction. Showtime was in the original 5, hence the fist of justice joke.

You’re free to make a CRT on this, because I’m no longer going in circles.

It didn't even mention it not being a sequel to Royal in the scans you sent, nor did it even mention Royal, so you're definitely just making stuff up now

I already addressed this point, them saying "Persona 5" isn't evidence that its not a continuation of Royal, because being a continuation of Royal means you're also a sequel to P5 as they're canon. You also conveniently ignored my point that P5R is part of the Persona 5 story, which Strikers is a continuation of, as proven in your scan

It wore off after the fight in 5, but got transferred to Maruki in 5R

Where is this stated?

I don’t see how the first is a contradiction. Showtime was in the original 5, hence the fist of justice joke.

Did you forget what a Showtime attack is? It was originally from Royal only

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Like I said, make a CRT, I’m not going in circles with you.

 

[WinsonDetamp]

So did he make the CRT? Would be an interesting read

 

[MishimaBloodline]

Strikers is recurrently stated by the directors, promotional material, and interviews, to be the sequel to Persona 5, not Royal.

Not to butt in, however I feel like this argument isn't a debunk to how Strikers is not connected to Royal in any way
The director in an interview states:
"Ultimately, my hope is that everyone can experience the world of P5S, in whichever way they prefer."
This can be inferred to that if the player chooses so it can be connected to Royal since there are no glaring contradictions. This interview was after the release of Royal after all.
I heard that there is a reference to the last palace of Royal in the original Japanese version of Strikers, however I could not find any proof of this.
I have also heard that Persona 5 Strikers taking place half a year later fits more in line with when Royal ends than when vanilla ends.

 

[TheGatememer]

Not to butt in, however I feel like this argument isn't a debunk to how Strikers is not connected to Royal in any way
The director in an interview states:
"Ultimately, my hope is that everyone can experience the world of P5S, in whichever way they prefer."
This can be inferred to that if the player chooses so it can be connected to Royal since there are no glaring contradictions. This interview was after the release of Royal after all.
I heard that there is a reference to the last palace of Royal in the original Japanese version of Strikers, however I could not find any proof of this.
I have also heard that Persona 5 Strikers taking place half a year later fits more in line with when Royal ends than when vanilla ends.

No? This is the full quote:

“Because P5S is P5’s follow-up story, those who are familiar with P5 will probably be able to enjoy the game on a deeper level.

That being said, because the story revolves around an all-new incident, I think people will still be able to enjoy the game even just by having a grasp on the characters and their relationships through the anime or manga.

And, for those who love action games, I think it’s also perfectly fine to simply try this game out first, and then follow the backstory in P5 after.

Ultimately, my hope is that everyone can experience the world of P5S, in whichever way they prefer.”

Royal isn't mentioned once here. They are just saying that while people who have played P5 will be able to enjoy the game on a deeper level, it is up to the player to decide which game they want to play first.