this doesn't exactly dismiss the argument, given that "barely kept up with" still means he kept up with him
Yes and? It's a completely moot point lad.
also I'd like to point out that Diavolo says that his stand hasn't lost any power, even though Polnareff is a bit older than part 4 Jotaro, which does help discredit the idea that Jotaro should have gotten weaker from the time between part 3 and 4
You do realize that Polnareff being in Part 5 was a last minute addition, completely ignoring that Pol himself states he no longer has the Stand ability to control something like a Requiem, Jotaro ain't scaling to Part 5 Pol due to a last minute addition Araki made at the time that he never intended to do because fans kept pestering him about Pol, you realize that right? The statements from Part 4 of SP being so and so doesn't factor in Part 5 Pol because they weren't written with him in mind, it's a complete unrelated event. Unless you mean the aging, in which, Diavolo states Pol's spiritual strength hasn't waned, only for Pol himself to state that it actually has.
(his time stop getting weaker is different, as it's shown that even during the few minutes Dio and Jotaro fight eachother, the length of the time stop tends to vary a lot, showing that the strength of time stop and the stand itself aren't really related)
No, he's weaker because we know Stands explicitly get weaker without proper usage and age, this has been confirmed, ignoring it's blatantly shown and even the focus of an entire arc as with Grateful Dead, it's been reiterated in guides that those two can lead to Stands dwindling, of which Jotaro applies for both, blatantly, especially when we're told his peak is when he was 18.
And strawman, nobody said time stop length and power were connected, but that doesn't change the fact that 18yo is his peak, Stands get weaker with age, and Jotaro applies for both, the mere fact that 18yo is the peak confirms 28 and 46yo old Jotaro ain't up to standards. And even then, Jotaro could be FTL, or MFTL, in fact we treat his as such, he's At least FTL, possibly MFTL to account for that, but guess what? That ain't making anyone in Part 4 a certain speed when SP is faster than the entire bar with ease.
I feel as though precision E makes sense given that Polnareff was able to make it miss just by sneezing, and Avdol avoided a fatal blow by falling over
as for the speed, Polnareff clearly was caught off guard, and B is only one spot below A....however making an argument on stand stats is admittedly weak, so I'm focusing more on the other points
That's stupidity on Hol's end that was unironically fated to happen, ignoring it was a gag. Abdul did die, Araki just went back on his decision lad, and Emperor still hit him none the less, putting his ass into healing for weeks. Meanwhile Emperor is able to avoid a strike from an armorless Chariot mid slash and swerve the strike avoiding it by mere milimeters, against Chariot, a Stand that has high precision itself. Among several other feats.
No, Pol wasn't caught off guard, The Bullet straight up dodged an armorless Chariot strike, that's what I'm referring to, the reason why Pol is off guard
after the fact, is because the bullet
dodged him, the bullet that had the speed to dodge one of the fastest things in the verse, but no, according to stats it's slow, despite being god tier by feats. See the issue?
now here's my biggest issue with your argument, you keep on ignoring the biggest fact, koichi is talking about travel speed which is how fast he goes through the wires.
Yes, and that's unironically the best thing he has in the whole Part, that's why they're rel to low FTL, without that, they'd be whatever deflecting Bad Company would get.
Koichi mentioning Jotaro only being able to keep up with it doesn't prove your point, considering well, he has time stop, which is hax that completely counters speed
Except it has absolutely **** all to do with time stop, Koichi is talking about SPEED, in regards to both Jotaro and RHCP, the japanese scan even shoots down any possibility of it being time stop as Koichi outright states only Jotaro would be able to catch and keep up with him even while moving into the vents at such a speed, it's worded in such a way that outright indicates RHCP is moving and SP can catch him while doing so.
And that's without getting into the fact RHCP has gone on record stating he worries about SP's SPEED even disregarding time stop, and the fact SP is stated fatser than RHCP, twice.
of course, chili pepper itself has greater combat speed than crazy diamond, but you really have not shown that chili pepper only has ftl COMBAT speed at all.
Dude, you really don't know how this works, RHCP is Rel-Rel+ normally, FTL when charged. The only reason he's Rel to Rel+ normally in c o m b a t is because he's lightspeed in the wiring which scales to his reactions normally (And the fact CD managed to pull a Rel feat against him while he was moving at lightspeed, which scales back to their combat speeds).
That's it, the feats and showings and scalings show Rel to Rel+, demonstrably so, I can even give an approximate number based on a calc. And that's it, they have no MFTL feats, scaling, showings, etc, in fact they have the opposite as they're all slower than Star Platinum, blatantly, stated twice that he's the fastest Stand among them bar none.
So yes, RHCP at max charge only has low FTL combat speed because that's what the statements, feats, showings and even calcs show him at, and the reason he isn't MFTL in combat speed is because there's literally ******* nothing to put him on there and if there was, it'd be inconsistent with his otherwise consistent Rel+ to low FTL showings. And SP sure ain't a good way to scale given RHCP is scared shitless of him and JoJo 6251 states that RHCP recognizes Star Platinum as being the strongest and fastest Stand.
But of course, we go back scaling from Jotaro, and it becomes clear that part 4 characters who scale to Jotaro must be mftl.
Literally NOBODY in Part 4 scales to Jotaro lad, a half dead bleeding out literally has holes through him Jotaro, blitzes Killer Queen by a hilarious amount to where Kira straight up can't believe a Stand that fast exists.
Star Platinum is stated the fastest Stand in Part 4 twice, both in manga and in the guides.
Josuke and RHCP both states that Star Platinum is faster than them and recognize SP as the fastest Stand they know.
SP while casual manages to suckerpunch blitz an enraged Crazy Diamond who has speed beyond what he normally has.
SP at the end against BTD is straight up shown faster as by the time the other Stands are even manifested,
SP is already out throwing dozens of punches.
There is unironically n o t h i n g in Part 4 that scales anyone to Star Platinum, ergo nobody in Part 4 has MFTL scaling, ergo nobody in Part 4 has MFTL speed even if you take away RHCP, in fact, RHCP is the sole reason why they're as fast as they are, ignore him and you'd be lucky to hit even MHS+ or sub-rel.
Maybe at most, end of Part 4 or Enraged CD is encroaching, but literally nobody scales to enraged CD except Rohan, who's listed as At least FTL accordingly.
Honestly I could go on, you don't think we didn't try and salvage the MFTL for them? We did lad, there just wasn't any actual consistent or concrete evidence.
I've already shown plausible evidence that Jotaro shouldn't have gotten any relevant amount weaker or slower than he was in part 3, and time stop length is unrelated to his actual speed and power.
See above, also see that Jotaro is listed as still being likely MFTL in Part 4. Nobody scales to him though and even if they did, it'd go against the numerous other showings and statements stating SP blitzes the whole art and back easily.
You have been picking away at many details sure, but if you can't deny Jotaro's speed at this point, your argument in a way, completely falls apart
again, remember the difference between travel speed sneak attacks, and combat speed.
Yes, picking away at details. I'm sure if you oversimplify everything you can get whatever result you want, but that isn't accurate, that's dishonest, disinengious, if not blatant lying. Details matter, greatly.
Jotaro is At least FTL, likely MFTL in Part 4.
What his speed is doesnt matter though because nobody scales to Star Platinum's speed in full, or even a fraction, except, m a y b e Furious CD, who in turn doesn't scale to anyone but Rohan.
Again, light travel speed, the fact that he beats him in cqc shows that the two are clearly different
Yes, that's because RHCP's base speed is slower than his travel speed. Him and CD's base speed are only Rel-Rel+, below lightspeed.
And CD can only beat him when upclose according to JoJoveller, due to the power and speed of power type Stands increasing up close. Josuke can only surpass RHCP while at maximum output due to the inverse law of Stands.
Koichi does not say Jotaro "has the speed to" but rather vaguely says that Jotaro can keep up with it
Japanese scan lad. Ignoring that 6251 outright states SP >>>> RHCP in pure speed.
remember, the biggest difference between crazy diamond and star platinum is time stop, which would be very difficult to beat even with sneak attacks.
And the fact that SP is stronger, more precise, faster, etc. AS stated numerous times in the manga itself, guides, and so on.
"#1 In speed, power and precision, has the added ability to stop time", "the strongest stand known to man", "Number 1 in speed and power among existing Stands", "Both Josuke and RHCP recognize Star Platinum as the strongest Stand", etc.
I could go on mate.
Time Stop isn't a factor, we straight up know it isn't here.
but we could also interpret it as Jotaro keeping up with chili pepper's combat speed, which still doesn't prove anything as star platinum is slightly faster than Crazy Diamond,
How about the fact that we have numerous statements stating SP is faster? And zero actual feats showing CD anywhere even ******* close to SP. The closest is a explicit stat amped by a drastic degree furious CD, still not being as fast as SP.
and would thus be able to likely surpass Chili pepper's stand rush speed. The burden of proof is on you to show that Jotaro isn't mftl in part 4, since now I've already shown that age is not an argument that gets the job done, especially not for the gap between parts 3 and 4
You haven't shown anything, in fact your utter disregard for actual evidence is ******* baffling. Not counting the fact we still do consider SP in Part 4 as MFTL, just only a possibly to be conservative as wanking everything to the highest possible degree despite conflicting evidence is completely ridiculous.
No, CD doesn't surpass RHCP's stand rush speed, he
lost the only time they DID stand rush.
also damn dude chill, I just wanna have fun and discuss jojo yknow, even if 2 of my points were pretty bad and the stand stats point was basically useless, you can still just point it out normally
I was told to make it hostile, that wasn't even a joke, it was gonna be a lot more chill till I was told otherwise, blame them
And I'd prefer not to, you know how controversial a topic this is? Do you have any idea how much trouble this has caused in the past? If you want to do a CRT on it it
has to be good. If anything there should be a discussion rule in place so we don't have threads like this that isn't backed by sufficient evidence.
not that I'm not being a bit hypocritical to some extent, but still
Yeah well stop it, I don't have the time to deal with someone who wants to scale characters hundreds of times above their showings and feats based on literally nothing because some other character that's faster than them bar none might still be MFTL as if that mattered.
