Jojo speed

[Xxiaa]

Stated by polnaref hanged man moves at light speed Jojoveller says Polnaref can cut light speed foes.


The sun stand is stated to emit literal light multiple times and is even called a photosphere don’t know if your familiar with basic science but a photosphere is what emits light from a star. Polnaref can react to attacks from the stand so yea he’s light speed

 

[Xxiaa]

being able to react to things out of your line of sight is a little thing we call enhanced senses I believe? It doesn't actually have anything at all to do with speed
lets use a real life example, if someone is behind you and then punches you, assuming you don't have a 6th sense, when is the moment you will even have the OPPORTUNITY to begin to react to it? The moment you get hit of course. You can't react to what you don't see, that's how jojo characters work

Your equating fiction to real life which is an appeal to reality lol good try kid. Again if they are relative in speed reacting to something while off guard should be possible

 

[M3X_2.0]

I barely even know how this place works to be fair, but alright I'm gonna try

Don't worry. Just try to talk with me or @Chariot190 before you do something.

It's just a recommendation though, do whatever you want. But if the content of the thread is wrong or full of bullshits (something that JoJo always had, entire threads with bullshit stuff + people that don't know the verse), then me and Chariot will need to intervene.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

This is more of a question than a CRT, so why is this here?

 

[Xxiaa]

This is more of a question than a CRT, so why is this here?

Don’t know mans should just make a new thread

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Don't worry. Just try to talk with me or @Chariot190 before you do something.

It's just a recommendation though, do whatever you want. But if the content of the thread is wrong or full of bullshits (something that JoJo always had, entire threads with bullshit stuff + people that don't know the verse), then me and Chariot will need to intervene.

ok then, I guess I should probably make a new thread soon (once I find wtf I'm looking for with these scans)
also, I've seen you two a lot, so would that mean you both are currently the most knowledgeable jojo people then?

 

[Xxiaa]

ok then, I guess I should probably make a new thread soon (once I find wtf I'm looking for with these scans)
also, I've seen you two a lot, so would that mean you both are currently the most knowledgeable jojo people then?

Those two are the reason Jojo has the ratings it does God bless there souls

 

[M3X_2.0]

We are basically the reason JoJo got the scaling fixed. Before the revisions, everyone were MFTL, even ******* Echoes lol. And everyone were 8-C+ as well. Then I calced tons of feats (check the verse page, 2/3 of the calcs are mine).

 

[ZillertheBucko]

We are basically the reason JoJo got the scaling fixed. Before the revisions, everyone were MFTL, even ******* Echoes lol. And everyone were 8-C+ as well. Then I calced tons of feats (check the verse page, 2/3 of the calcs are mine).

act 0 mftl+

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Don't worry. Just try to talk with me or @Chariot190 before you do something.

It's just a recommendation though, do whatever you want. But if the content of the thread is wrong or full of bullshits (something that JoJo always had, entire threads with bullshit stuff + people that don't know the verse), then me and Chariot will need to intervene.

I won't lie, the vast majority of argument is in direct response to your own crt on the matter, and used your info
at this point, I feel like the best way to go is just to do a half "debunk" of some of your thread instead of making my argument from scratch
so would you mind if I like...did that? or do people not really do that on the forum

 

[M3X_2.0]

If you think you can, go ahead.

 

[Chariot190]

Was gonna be nice here but not now.

wheelchair polnareff was able to keep up with Diavolo who scales to younger non crippled polnareff and star platinum in part 4 is still faster than king crimson and silver chariot who both existed at the time

Wheelchair Polnareff barely kept up with King Crimson, he says it himself lad. Part 4 Star Platinum is unknown, just that he's FTL.

not to mention that if we're using stand stats then he should still be mftl,

We don't use Stand Stats on the wiki, they can be hilariously inconsistent or vague.

since it's a consistent;y appearing stat system throughout parts 3-6

It's super ******* not consistent, Emperor has what, an E in precision for example and speed below an A, oh but he can react to Armorless Chariot who has an A in speed except numerous times faster without the armor? Just one of many, many, examples.

and as for koichi saying that red hot chili pepper is moving at the speed of light can be dismissed because

Because of nothing, it's confirmed in guides.

1. at the time koichi was a new stand user who was pretty much undeveloped, I don't see how he would be able to keep up with chili pepper anyways. he's just not a reliable enough source, especially if we're using his statements in an attempt to contradict scaling.

That's an insane argument, you can't dismiss blatant exposition because you don't like it, not withstanding the fact RHCP being lightspeed is based on an actual phenomena of electricity being able to reach up to 98% of the speed of light in insulated copper wiring, Koichi doesn't need to be experienced as a Stand User, he just needs to know basic elementary school facts. His statements don't contradict scaling, and his statements are reconfirmed in JoJo-a-GoGo and 6251 that states RHCP is simply lightspeed.

2. Red hot chili pepper has been shown to have inconsistent speed, as when he gains electricity he goes from getting absolutely blitzed by crazy diamond to being even faster. So it's unlikely that he's at the speed of light anyways, esp when he gets boosts

Yeah, he does, because his speed varies depending on the amount of electricity he gains, it's outright stated, three times. It's the exact opposite, he's slower than light without boosts, and only barely FTL when he does get them, not that he starts off at FTL to only get faster. That isn't inconsistent, that's consistency with how his power works. He isn't charged so he gets blitzed by CD, then he increases his speed and blitzes him back, basic shit.

Koichi even says speed of light when TRAVELLING through the wires, meaning that the combat speed is unaffected by the statement anyways.

You're right lad, it doesn't effect combat speed, which was an issue, because without it, there's nothing in Part 4 putting any Stand besides SP above lightspeed. You're lucky that travel speed statement scaled to reactions and CD could pull out a rel feat against him. And you're acting like him being lightspeed in the wires wasn't a ******* issue, he was fast, so fast CD was having issues at the time. The point of the statement is that because he can travel so fast while remaining invisible, chili pepper can sneak attack Josuke, which is the whole point of why he had Koichi watch for where chili pepper would pop out of the ground from Yeah, he was so fast he could sneak attack Josuke, punch him, dodge, and so on, with zero issue, so fast Koichi was seeing doubles, and so on, all due to the lightspeed. To further that, Koichi straight up says, only Jotaro has the speed to catch RHCP at lightspeed among them there, straight up confirming the lightspeed was an issue to them, not whatever extrapolation youre trying to get.

so yeah, there's really no evidence that suggests Josuke isn't mftl as far as I know

The fact he blatantly had issue with lightspeed, the fact he can only surpass RHCP at extremely close cqc range. The fact Koichi states only Jotaro among them has the speed to **** with lightspeed, made more blatant in the jpn scan, the fact Josuke has **** ALL for feats and scaling that would put him at even lightspeed outside of being enraged, which explicitly boosts his stats drastically. Only Jotaro and Rohan have any reason to be FTL in Part 4, they have the scaling and feats, CD might be FTL by the end and while enraged, but it sure as **** doesn't apply to his base which is demonstrably only rel of some degree.

unfortunately this probably won't be acknowledged by the wiki but it's still an unfortunately unnecessary downgrade

It won't be because there's **** all for it.

Now if you want to have an actual discussion about it ******* watch it.

 

[Chariot190]

Hell dude, you really think we're gonna have CD, Josuke or whoever at MFTL when they got ****** by lightspeed and can barely keep up or surpass it except under specific conditions? And they sure as **** don't have scaling given SP is reiterated numerous times to be way, way, faster than the whole of the Part with ease so even if you wanted to argue that RHCP is some sort of inconsistency, they still wouldnt be MFTL because they aren't scaling to anyone who has it except for some dude who routinely blitzes them.

 

[KingTempest]

@Chariot190, please relax

But yeah Chariot's explanation of the scaling, the showings of Josuke not being FTL, the inconsistency with RHCP, the statements of only Jotaro being able to handle lightspeed, and others, makes sense

 

[Chariot190]

I̶ ̶a̶m̶ ̶r̶e̶l̶a̶x̶e̶d̶.̶ ̶I̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶ ̶p̶u̶t̶ ̶a̶t̶ ̶g̶u̶n̶p̶o̶i̶n̶t̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶p̶u̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶f̶u̶c̶k̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶

 

[KingTempest]

I̶ ̶a̶m̶ ̶r̶e̶l̶a̶x̶e̶d̶.̶ ̶I̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶ ̶p̶u̶t̶ ̶a̶t̶ ̶g̶u̶n̶p̶o̶i̶n̶t̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶p̶u̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶f̶u̶c̶k̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶

Oof, fair.
Carry on

 

[ZillertheBucko]

yikes I suppose I should acknowledge this

Was gonna be nice here but not now.


Wheelchair Polnareff barely kept up with King Crimson, he says it himself lad.

this doesn't exactly dismiss the argument, given that "barely kept up with" still means he kept up with him
also I'd like to point out that Diavolo says that his stand hasn't lost any power, even though Polnareff is a bit older than part 4 Jotaro, which does help discredit the idea that Jotaro should have gotten weaker from the time between part 3 and 4 (his time stop getting weaker is different, as it's shown that even during the few minutes Dio and Jotaro fight eachother, the length of the time stop tends to vary a lot, showing that the strength of time stop and the stand itself aren't really related)

It's super ******* not consistent, Emperor has what, an E in precision for example and speed below an A, oh but he can react to Armorless Chariot who has an A in speed except numerous times faster without the armor? Just one of many, many, examples.

I feel as though precision E makes sense given that Polnareff was able to make it miss just by sneezing, and Avdol avoided a fatal blow by falling over
as for the speed, Polnareff clearly was caught off guard, and B is only one spot below A....however making an argument on stand stats is admittedly weak, so I'm focusing more on the other points

That's an insane argument, you can't dismiss blatant exposition because you don't like it, not withstanding the fact RHCP being lightspeed is based on an actual phenomena of electricity being able to reach up to 98% of the speed of light in insulated copper wiring, Koichi doesn't need to be experienced as a Stand User, he just needs to know basic elementary school facts. His statements don't contradict scaling, and his statements are reconfirmed in JoJo-a-GoGo and 6251 that states RHCP is simply lightspeed.



Yeah, he does, because his speed varies depending on the amount of electricity he gains, it's outright stated, three times. It's the exact opposite, he's slower than light without boosts, and only barely FTL when he does get them, not that he starts off at FTL to only get faster. That isn't inconsistent, that's consistency with how his power works. He isn't charged so he gets blitzed by CD, then he increases his speed and blitzes him back, basic shit.

fair and fair, these were my worst arguments easily

You're right lad, it doesn't effect combat speed, which was an issue, because without it, there's nothing in Part 4 putting any Stand besides SP above lightspeed. You're lucky that travel speed statement scaled to reactions and CD could pull out a rel feat against him. And you're acting like him being lightspeed in the wires wasn't a ******* issue, he was fast, so fast CD was having issues at the time. The point of the statement is that because he can travel so fast while remaining invisible, chili pepper can sneak attack Josuke, which is the whole point of why he had Koichi watch for where chili pepper would pop out of the ground from Yeah, he was so fast he could sneak attack Josuke, punch him, dodge, and so on, with zero issue, so fast Koichi was seeing doubles, and so on, all due to the lightspeed. To further that, Koichi straight up says, only Jotaro has the speed to catch RHCP at lightspeed among them there, straight up confirming the lightspeed was an issue to them, not whatever extrapolation youre trying to get.

now here's my biggest issue with your argument, you keep on ignoring the biggest fact, koichi is talking about travel speed which is how fast he goes through the wires. Koichi mentioning Jotaro only being able to keep up with it doesn't prove your point, considering well, he has time stop, which is hax that completely counters speed
of course, chili pepper itself has greater combat speed than crazy diamond, but you really have not shown that chili pepper only has ftl COMBAT speed at all.
But of course, we go back scaling from Jotaro, and it becomes clear that part 4 characters who scale to Jotaro must be mftl. I've already shown plausible evidence that Jotaro shouldn't have gotten any relevant amount weaker or slower than he was in part 3, and time stop length is unrelated to his actual speed and power. You have been picking away at many details sure, but if you can't deny Jotaro's speed at this point, your argument in a way, completely falls apart
again, remember the difference between travel speed sneak attacks, and combat speed.

The fact he blatantly had issue with lightspeed, the fact he can only surpass RHCP at extremely close cqc range. The fact Koichi states only Jotaro among them has the speed to **** with lightspeed, made more blatant in the jpn scan, the fact Josuke has **** ALL for feats and scaling that would put him at even lightspeed outside of being enraged, which explicitly boosts his stats drastically. Only Jotaro and Rohan have any reason to be FTL in Part 4, they have the scaling and feats, CD might be FTL by the end and while enraged, but it sure as **** doesn't apply to his base which is demonstrably only rel of some degree.

Again, light travel speed, the fact that he beats him in cqc shows that the two are clearly different
Koichi does not say Jotaro "has the speed to" but rather vaguely says that Jotaro can keep up with it
remember, the biggest difference between crazy diamond and star platinum is time stop, which would be very difficult to beat even with sneak attacks.
but we could also interpret it as Jotaro keeping up with chili pepper's combat speed, which still doesn't prove anything as star platinum is slightly faster than Crazy Diamond, and would thus be able to likely surpass Chili pepper's stand rush speed. The burden of proof is on you to show that Jotaro isn't mftl in part 4, since now I've already shown that age is not an argument that gets the job done, especially not for the gap between parts 3 and 4

also damn dude chill, I just wanna have fun and discuss jojo yknow, even if 2 of my points were pretty bad and the stand stats point was basically useless, you can still just point it out normally
not that I'm not being a bit hypocritical to some extent, but still

 

[ZillertheBucko]

so are you satisfied now? I feel as though I've likely shown enough for the crt to come later, but I would prefer that at least one of you acknowledged my points before I started of course so I shall wait

 

[Chariot190]

this doesn't exactly dismiss the argument, given that "barely kept up with" still means he kept up with him

Yes and? It's a completely moot point lad.

also I'd like to point out that Diavolo says that his stand hasn't lost any power, even though Polnareff is a bit older than part 4 Jotaro, which does help discredit the idea that Jotaro should have gotten weaker from the time between part 3 and 4

You do realize that Polnareff being in Part 5 was a last minute addition, completely ignoring that Pol himself states he no longer has the Stand ability to control something like a Requiem, Jotaro ain't scaling to Part 5 Pol due to a last minute addition Araki made at the time that he never intended to do because fans kept pestering him about Pol, you realize that right? The statements from Part 4 of SP being so and so doesn't factor in Part 5 Pol because they weren't written with him in mind, it's a complete unrelated event. Unless you mean the aging, in which, Diavolo states Pol's spiritual strength hasn't waned, only for Pol himself to state that it actually has.

(his time stop getting weaker is different, as it's shown that even during the few minutes Dio and Jotaro fight eachother, the length of the time stop tends to vary a lot, showing that the strength of time stop and the stand itself aren't really related)

No, he's weaker because we know Stands explicitly get weaker without proper usage and age, this has been confirmed, ignoring it's blatantly shown and even the focus of an entire arc as with Grateful Dead, it's been reiterated in guides that those two can lead to Stands dwindling, of which Jotaro applies for both, blatantly, especially when we're told his peak is when he was 18.
And strawman, nobody said time stop length and power were connected, but that doesn't change the fact that 18yo is his peak, Stands get weaker with age, and Jotaro applies for both, the mere fact that 18yo is the peak confirms 28 and 46yo old Jotaro ain't up to standards. And even then, Jotaro could be FTL, or MFTL, in fact we treat his as such, he's At least FTL, possibly MFTL to account for that, but guess what? That ain't making anyone in Part 4 a certain speed when SP is faster than the entire bar with ease.

I feel as though precision E makes sense given that Polnareff was able to make it miss just by sneezing, and Avdol avoided a fatal blow by falling over

as for the speed, Polnareff clearly was caught off guard, and B is only one spot below A....however making an argument on stand stats is admittedly weak, so I'm focusing more on the other points

That's stupidity on Hol's end that was unironically fated to happen, ignoring it was a gag. Abdul did die, Araki just went back on his decision lad, and Emperor still hit him none the less, putting his ass into healing for weeks. Meanwhile Emperor is able to avoid a strike from an armorless Chariot mid slash and swerve the strike avoiding it by mere milimeters, against Chariot, a Stand that has high precision itself. Among several other feats.
No, Pol wasn't caught off guard, The Bullet straight up dodged an armorless Chariot strike, that's what I'm referring to, the reason why Pol is off guard after the fact, is because the bullet dodged him, the bullet that had the speed to dodge one of the fastest things in the verse, but no, according to stats it's slow, despite being god tier by feats. See the issue?

now here's my biggest issue with your argument, you keep on ignoring the biggest fact, koichi is talking about travel speed which is how fast he goes through the wires.

Yes, and that's unironically the best thing he has in the whole Part, that's why they're rel to low FTL, without that, they'd be whatever deflecting Bad Company would get.

Koichi mentioning Jotaro only being able to keep up with it doesn't prove your point, considering well, he has time stop, which is hax that completely counters speed

Except it has absolutely **** all to do with time stop, Koichi is talking about SPEED, in regards to both Jotaro and RHCP, the japanese scan even shoots down any possibility of it being time stop as Koichi outright states only Jotaro would be able to catch and keep up with him even while moving into the vents at such a speed, it's worded in such a way that outright indicates RHCP is moving and SP can catch him while doing so.
And that's without getting into the fact RHCP has gone on record stating he worries about SP's SPEED even disregarding time stop, and the fact SP is stated fatser than RHCP, twice.

of course, chili pepper itself has greater combat speed than crazy diamond, but you really have not shown that chili pepper only has ftl COMBAT speed at all.

Dude, you really don't know how this works, RHCP is Rel-Rel+ normally, FTL when charged. The only reason he's Rel to Rel+ normally in c o m b a t is because he's lightspeed in the wiring which scales to his reactions normally (And the fact CD managed to pull a Rel feat against him while he was moving at lightspeed, which scales back to their combat speeds).
That's it, the feats and showings and scalings show Rel to Rel+, demonstrably so, I can even give an approximate number based on a calc. And that's it, they have no MFTL feats, scaling, showings, etc, in fact they have the opposite as they're all slower than Star Platinum, blatantly, stated twice that he's the fastest Stand among them bar none.

So yes, RHCP at max charge only has low FTL combat speed because that's what the statements, feats, showings and even calcs show him at, and the reason he isn't MFTL in combat speed is because there's literally ******* nothing to put him on there and if there was, it'd be inconsistent with his otherwise consistent Rel+ to low FTL showings. And SP sure ain't a good way to scale given RHCP is scared shitless of him and JoJo 6251 states that RHCP recognizes Star Platinum as being the strongest and fastest Stand.

But of course, we go back scaling from Jotaro, and it becomes clear that part 4 characters who scale to Jotaro must be mftl.

Literally NOBODY in Part 4 scales to Jotaro lad, a half dead bleeding out literally has holes through him Jotaro, blitzes Killer Queen by a hilarious amount to where Kira straight up can't believe a Stand that fast exists.
Star Platinum is stated the fastest Stand in Part 4 twice, both in manga and in the guides.
Josuke and RHCP both states that Star Platinum is faster than them and recognize SP as the fastest Stand they know.
SP while casual manages to suckerpunch blitz an enraged Crazy Diamond who has speed beyond what he normally has.
SP at the end against BTD is straight up shown faster as by the time the other Stands are even manifested, SP is already out throwing dozens of punches.

There is unironically n o t h i n g in Part 4 that scales anyone to Star Platinum, ergo nobody in Part 4 has MFTL scaling, ergo nobody in Part 4 has MFTL speed even if you take away RHCP, in fact, RHCP is the sole reason why they're as fast as they are, ignore him and you'd be lucky to hit even MHS+ or sub-rel.

Maybe at most, end of Part 4 or Enraged CD is encroaching, but literally nobody scales to enraged CD except Rohan, who's listed as At least FTL accordingly.

Honestly I could go on, you don't think we didn't try and salvage the MFTL for them? We did lad, there just wasn't any actual consistent or concrete evidence.

I've already shown plausible evidence that Jotaro shouldn't have gotten any relevant amount weaker or slower than he was in part 3, and time stop length is unrelated to his actual speed and power.

See above, also see that Jotaro is listed as still being likely MFTL in Part 4. Nobody scales to him though and even if they did, it'd go against the numerous other showings and statements stating SP blitzes the whole art and back easily.

You have been picking away at many details sure, but if you can't deny Jotaro's speed at this point, your argument in a way, completely falls apart

again, remember the difference between travel speed sneak attacks, and combat speed.

Yes, picking away at details. I'm sure if you oversimplify everything you can get whatever result you want, but that isn't accurate, that's dishonest, disinengious, if not blatant lying. Details matter, greatly.
Jotaro is At least FTL, likely MFTL in Part 4.
What his speed is doesnt matter though because nobody scales to Star Platinum's speed in full, or even a fraction, except, m a y b e Furious CD, who in turn doesn't scale to anyone but Rohan.

Again, light travel speed, the fact that he beats him in cqc shows that the two are clearly different

Yes, that's because RHCP's base speed is slower than his travel speed. Him and CD's base speed are only Rel-Rel+, below lightspeed.
And CD can only beat him when upclose according to JoJoveller, due to the power and speed of power type Stands increasing up close. Josuke can only surpass RHCP while at maximum output due to the inverse law of Stands.

Koichi does not say Jotaro "has the speed to" but rather vaguely says that Jotaro can keep up with it

Japanese scan lad. Ignoring that 6251 outright states SP >>>> RHCP in pure speed.

remember, the biggest difference between crazy diamond and star platinum is time stop, which would be very difficult to beat even with sneak attacks.

And the fact that SP is stronger, more precise, faster, etc. AS stated numerous times in the manga itself, guides, and so on.
"#1 In speed, power and precision, has the added ability to stop time", "the strongest stand known to man", "Number 1 in speed and power among existing Stands", "Both Josuke and RHCP recognize Star Platinum as the strongest Stand", etc.
I could go on mate.
Time Stop isn't a factor, we straight up know it isn't here.

but we could also interpret it as Jotaro keeping up with chili pepper's combat speed, which still doesn't prove anything as star platinum is slightly faster than Crazy Diamond,

How about the fact that we have numerous statements stating SP is faster? And zero actual feats showing CD anywhere even ******* close to SP. The closest is a explicit stat amped by a drastic degree furious CD, still not being as fast as SP.

and would thus be able to likely surpass Chili pepper's stand rush speed. The burden of proof is on you to show that Jotaro isn't mftl in part 4, since now I've already shown that age is not an argument that gets the job done, especially not for the gap between parts 3 and 4

You haven't shown anything, in fact your utter disregard for actual evidence is ******* baffling. Not counting the fact we still do consider SP in Part 4 as MFTL, just only a possibly to be conservative as wanking everything to the highest possible degree despite conflicting evidence is completely ridiculous.

No, CD doesn't surpass RHCP's stand rush speed, he lost the only time they DID stand rush.

also damn dude chill, I just wanna have fun and discuss jojo yknow, even if 2 of my points were pretty bad and the stand stats point was basically useless, you can still just point it out normally

I was told to make it hostile, that wasn't even a joke, it was gonna be a lot more chill till I was told otherwise, blame them
And I'd prefer not to, you know how controversial a topic this is? Do you have any idea how much trouble this has caused in the past? If you want to do a CRT on it it has to be good. If anything there should be a discussion rule in place so we don't have threads like this that isn't backed by sufficient evidence.

not that I'm not being a bit hypocritical to some extent, but still

Yeah well stop it, I don't have the time to deal with someone who wants to scale characters hundreds of times above their showings and feats based on literally nothing because some other character that's faster than them bar none might still be MFTL as if that mattered.

 

[Chariot190]

so are you satisfied now? I feel as though I've likely shown enough for the crt to come later, but I would prefer that at least one of you acknowledged my points before I started of course so I shall wait

No, I'm not satisfied, in fact I'm starting to get annoyed you think that's actually enough.

They aren't going to be MFTL, ever, Araki could come out tomorrow and say "CD is MFTL and is faster than Star Platinum by ten times", we'd ignore that, because it's so contradictory to everything we know, shown, and feats.
Consistency matters, context matters, showings, feats, etc.

You're disregarding all of it.



See that?

"Star Platinum!" "Still on active duty! The strongest Stand!!" "Jotaro's Stand with precise movement, speed, and power that is said to be No. 1 among all Stands. He also still has the ability to stop time. He used this ability for the first time in 10 years when he tested the power of Josuke. The Stand and the main body, is recognized by both Josuke and Otoshi as the strongest Stand".

"Is the number 1 in accuracy, speed, and power. Has the added ability to stop time for 1-2 seconds".

Star Platinum is the fastest Stand in the Part, nobody rolls up to him, nobody scales. The only time SP fought was him half dead and heavily weakened due to injury, blitzing Killer Queen, who in turns blitzes Act 3.

"His Stand, it's way to fast"

And CD while amped, still being not quite as fast.

RHCP himself outright states he's worried about how tough and fast Star Platinum is, and even without the ability to stop time, he's someone he never wants to fight.

And your Koichi argument doesn't help you out, it makes things even worse given Koichi was doing a better job keeping up, and if you wanna actually argue time stop is what helped Jotaro (even though that's not what's being said), that'd just make Part 4 even slower in the end.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

honestly I did have a big response somewhat typed out but....
I'm just gonna analyze as much as part 4 as I can for a while, since I can tell that you really thought out many possibilities and it's gonna take extremely solid evidence to convince you to agree with me
I'll be back at some point and I will certainly have more arguments
but before I do that I'd like like to note that the crazy diamond rage boost may or may not be an unquantifiable increase in compared to normal full power crazy diamond, which I may expand on later if I can find anything else

 

[Chariot190]

I'm just gonna analyze as much as part 4 as I can for a while, since I can tell that you really thought out many possibilities and it's gonna take extremely solid evidence to convince you to agree with me

Yeah no shit it's gonna take extremely solid evidence, the issue is there isn't any, at all. You'd have to wait for the next guide to give new info (which hopefully is soon, we need it kinda really bad for Part 8 in particular).
The only thing, the only thing in the whole entire part that implies CD is even close to SP, is that Jotaro says CD's speed is pretty damn high. But there's a caveat, it's when it's CD being enraged. Which drastically increases output.
So ok, enraged CD, MIGHT be FTL or encroaching Star Platinum. (And I say encroaching, at best, because it's confirmed numerous times over that Star Platinum is faster than CD full stop, even at CD's best, he's below base Star Platinum in speed), that doesn't help for the rest of the Part as nobody fights enraged CD except Rohan, who's listed as at least FTL, likely higher accordingly to compensate for everything you've already said.
RHCP? Killer Queen? Etc, etc etc, nobody fights an enraged CD, the only ones who do get their face smashed in without any way to retaliate. And RHCP and Kira aren't dumb enough to push that button.

I'll be back at some point and I will certainly have more arguments

How about no, the very fact you have to dig extensively for evidence should be huge red flag it's likely not the case. Ignoring the fact me and several other dudes already did that, we went through the manga, the japanese manga, guides, (both of which we got help translating but an ex mod) I even bought a 150$ ******* book for extra information, lad, I own JoJoveller, all the pictures you see on the profile? I took personally.
Like it or not, there's nothing putting Part 4 at MFTL, even if Jotaro himself is MFTL, nobody scales to him, best we have is a vague statement for furious CD which is already accounted for in the profile hence the "higher" for Furious, Rohan scales at least to a degree so he has that already but Rohan is Rohan, Rohan is on some next level shit.

but before I do that I'd like like to note that the crazy diamond rage boost may or may not be an unquantifiable increase in compared to normal full power crazy diamond, which I may expand on later if I can find anything else

JoJoveller straight up states it increases things like his power for example, among other places. It's unquantifiable yeah, but it's "drastic", if CD needs a DRASTIC boost to even get close to a laid back Star Platinum, of course he ain't scaling normally, and that's IF he scales in the first place, it's just as likely he still ain't actually close at all to him in speed, simply just way faster than his own base state.
Only thing of note is an off handed Jotaro statement that simply implies he's fast and we know damn well it ain't so fast he's on par with SP because we're outright told he's not by, RHCP, Josuke himself, 3 guides, the manga itself, and so on and so forth that Star Platinum is the fastest Stand in the whole Part, so however fast Furious CD might be, still ain't enough to be equal to SP.

I'm going to ask politely, do not waste our time, this has been looked at extensively, the best Part 4 has is RHCP's lightspeed statements, which luckily scale to combat speed. While it's true combat speed and travel speed are different, it doesn't mean combat speed is higher, in this case the opposite is true, travel speed is above combat speed, only under specific conditions do they surpass that.

Though I will say, there is one way to get Part 4 to FTL solidly, there is but one single way, if you can find a feat regarding that, it'd be good to go, except with a single caveat.

If you can find a feat of someone reacting to and dodging/deflecting/moving/whatever against an object that is being "fixed" by CD's restoration, while said restoration is going full speed (as in, shit like them following the cut off hand, or pipes being fixed don't apply, it wasn't at max speed), if you can find that, and the example takes place AFTER the RHCP arc, they can scale to FTL as Josuke's restoration at max speed is FTL. But it must occur after RHCP and the restoration has to actually be going at maximum speed blatantly (For example, if Kira reacted to Josuke's homing glass shards after his healing ability was used on it to make it 180, that would be an example of end of Part 4 FTL scaling, as we can reasonably say that in a life and death match, Josuke's restoration bullets would be going as fast as possible especially so they don't get avoided and hurt Kira.) That is an example of what you'd need to make base speed for end of part CD to be FTL normally, of course that kira example was a hypothetical, Kira actually fails to react to the bullets after they get "restored", he gets pegged in the back, twice even.
Though that's a bit rhetorical, I looked extensively, reading the manga several times in the span of a single day looking for an example that would qualify and found none, the Kira example was so close too, it actually kinda pissed me off end of Part 4 being FTL was so close, but his dumb ass didn't react to it properly.

Mid to early Part 4 is stuck at Rel to Rel+, that's unchangeable fyi due to the RHCP interactions, it puts a solid cap on their speed, and they don't have any feats to put them any higher (best feat at that point for Part 4 before the rel feats is a MHS+ to sub-rel feat from early CD against Bad Company). Only late Part 4 has any hope of changing but you'd need to do that above if you want that.

 

[Chariot190]

tldr.

Find an example of someone reacting to CD's restoration going at max speed post RHCP and you might have an actual example of straightforward FTL scaling.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Or Josuke and Hol Horse interactions in the new novel. It all depends on how it's done, if Josuke got faster after Part 4 and if Hol Horse is still fast

 

[Chariot190]

Actually yeah, that's a good point. If that ends up being canon, we might get actual FTL-MFTL CD without any convoluted scaling or anything, straightforward stuff.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

it never occurred to me until now that Josuke's healing should be that fast
and I completely forgot about the josuke and Hol Horse thing...
maybe it's best that I do wait for that, it could probably make this a ton easier for me

 

[ZillertheBucko]

also you said rohan should scale to angry diamond
mind elaborating a bit on that?

 

[M3X_2.0]

Rohan reacted to furious Crazy Diamond

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Rohan reacted to furious Crazy Diamond

wait a minute
so those who react to rohan are mftl/ftl+ then?

 

[Chariot190]

wait a minute
so those who react to rohan are mftl/ftl+ then?

At least FTL, possibly higher.

And I already know what you're thinking, no, nobody reacts to Rohan unless you count rock paper scissors which Rohan still managed to pull tricks and shit while playing before he was forced to play fair.

The only thing that comes close is BTD but that's less it reacting to Rohan and more Rohan trying to attack it after it was already in his eye and thus, being incapable of doing anything.

But yes, if a character reacts to Rohan (properly mind you), and said character isn't demonstrably slower than CD (Otherwise we'd create contradictory circular scaling), they'd be FTL, possibly higher.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

At least FTL, possibly higher.

And I already know what you're thinking, no, nobody reacts to Rohan unless you count rock paper scissors which Rohan still managed to pull tricks and shit while playing before he was forced to play fair.

The only thing that comes close is BTD but that's less it reacting to Rohan and more Rohan trying to attack it after it was already in his eye and thus, being incapable of doing anything.

But yes, if a character reacts to Rohan (properly mind you), and said character isn't demonstrably slower than CD (Otherwise we'd create contradictory circular scaling), they'd be FTL, possibly higher.

well I have a list of candidates for characters who have reacted to or beaten the speed of heaven's door
1. angry Josuke obviously
2. Janken Boy because he was able to steal Heaven's door from Rohan before he even moved, and I suppose him using 2/3 of heaven's door may have some technicality that makes him scale?
3. he kinda sorta failed to react to highway star the first time he attacked
you could argue that he was behind him and therfore couldn't be seen, but rohan clearly had heaven's door out at the moment of the attack too
I'm gonna look for more examples but for now have this

 

[ZillertheBucko]

also another point
the rat did kinda hit Jotaro and Josuke a few times, making it kinda plausible that he's well
f t l +

 

[Chariot190]

angry Josuke obviously

No not angry josuke, what the hell? Angry Josuke being completely and utterly blitzed by Rohan with zero effort is why Rohan is FTL in the first place. Besides that single interaction, Rohan and Josuke never, not once, interact in a fight again.
In what world does the character getting blitzed by a hilarious degree scale to the character that blitzed him? That was rhetorical, it doesn't. And if it did, neither would be FTL as it'd create circular scaling.

2. Janken Boy because he was able to steal Heaven's door from Rohan before he even moved, and I suppose him using 2/3 of heaven's door may have some technicality that makes him scale?

That's, again, straight up false. B2M stole Heaven's Door passively and automatically, it had nothing to do with speed, the moment Rohan lost a game of RPS, Heaven's Door was sucked out without any contact.


The absolute closest thing B2M does is get summoned while Rohan goes to turn him into a book, and Rohan stops because he's surprised that his Stand manifested, only for Rohan to continue doing what he was doing and turn around and turn him into a book before heaven's Door is stolen in that extremely tiny window of time.


And no, not how that works, while it's true that Janken does indeed scale to heaven's door, that's with the caveat that he has Heaven's Door absorbed in the first place, which isn't apart of his powerset, it's like giving Pol Anubis as part of his powerset or like giving Daiya Soft & Wet. His power is taking the powers of others if they lose RPS with him, 1/3rd for every game of a best 2 out of 3, His base state doesn't scale to anything, and definitely not Rohan who blitzed him twice before he got ahold of Heaven's Door.

Rohan then agreed to RPS him and from there it's mutual agreement for the most part, bar Rohan pulling a fast one on him only for him to laugh it off and proceed to play fair.

3. he kinda sorta failed to react to highway star the first time he attacked you could argue that he was behind him and therfore couldn't be seen, but rohan clearly had heaven's door out at the moment of the attack too

Literally false, Rohan was tagged before Heaven's Door came out, Rohan was caught, he proceeded to summon Heaven's Door to get them off, but it was to late, Highway Star drained his energy and made him incapable of defending himself with Heaven's Door.



Rohan was fleeing them on his bike, he was succeeding, he slowed down below 60kmph (The Speed of the Stand fyi, meaning it obviously ain't FTL, it's literally millions of times less), Rohan was caught due to slowing down, and that's it, that's the scene, Rohan tried to retaliate after he got caught but Highway Star's ability prevented that as it drains those it catches of energy and nutrients, rendering them immobile, weak and incapable of fighting back, it can even drain them to the point of death.

Rohan was neither blitzed or matched in speed there, Rohan just failed to run away, was tagged from behind and that's it.

And yes, incapable of fighting, Rohan straight up didn't have the energy to write a command in him after getting caught, he barely had enough energy to lift his head to read, and even that didn't last long enough.


You're ignoring context and the sequence of events, details matter, you're ignoring them. Rohan had zero issue following its movements as well so even that way doesn't help.

also another point the rat did kinda hit Jotaro and Josuke a few times, making it kinda plausible that he's well

Ratt is unironically not scaling to anyone, or anything, he's lucky he's at where he is right now, because we're being really, really, generous with him.

But let's point out why it's wrong.

First off Josuke.



As you can see here, a casual CD and Josuke manage to react to a dart up close, given CD had to actually grab the pan, and given how close the dart was, using CD's arm length as distance comparative to how far the dart moved before it hti the pan, CD would be at least 2 to 3x faster.

https://imgur.com/a/7nn0vcY

The only time Josuke was tagged by it was from an ambush he wasn't expecting from a blindspot, and he still managed to react to it on impact. This isn't true scaling, it's actually quite suspect.

As for Jotaro and Star Platinum.

https://imgur.com/a/7nn0vcY

Same scans as above, Jotaro is fast enough to notice Josuke get hit, summon SP, stop time, and rip it out, before the poison spread and killed Josuke. Blatant example of being faster than Ratt.

https://imgur.com/a/bQ1wnTA

Jotaro casually reacts to the darts after they're fired and stops time to dodge them easily. Again, Jotaro can easily perceive and of course, react, to the darts.

The only time Jotaro gets hit was AFTER he reacts and dodged, but Bug-Eaten rebounded the shots off a rock and hit Jotaro from behind. This isn't speed scaling, at all, because ignoring Jotaro literally just easily dodged it, it was a sneak attack from behind that Jotaro wasn't expecting, in fact Jotaro is absolutely astounded the rodent is smart enough to even be able to richochet the shots.
What's that mean? It means Ratt doesn't scale to Jotaro if it had to sneak attack, hit him from behind and abuse Jotaro underestimating it to land a hit.

But that's not even the main issue, all that does is prove the above characters can react to it, not that Ratt isn't at least close, but THIS on the other hand does.

https://imgur.com/a/KINAIXh

Ratt is so much slower than even a super casual Star Platinum, that it's slow motion to him even in his base state and he can pluck it out of the air with zero issue due to how slow it is compared to him.

 

[Chariot190]

I'm going to ask one time politely stop ignoring details, and stop being disingenuous, even if not intentional, with how events played out.

Saying something like "Crazy Diamond landed a hit on Rohan, so it scales", for example, that sounds good on paper, but if you look at the full context and scene you'd learn that Rohan blitzed CD with Koichi even pointing out Rohan is so fast he's beyond even CD (who mind you, is probably the most angry he's ever been at that point except maybe when bootleg Joseph died).
The only reason why CD's hit landed was because Josuke was immune to heaven's door and his punch kept going despite Rohan believing he had won and even thinks to himself that he already won and stopped paying attention (hell he even offhandedly says "you thought that was quick?" implying it isn't even his top speed), only to regret when CD's fist didnt stop and landed him in the face, which Rohan responds with astonishment because, why would CD be immune?
It's because Josuke was so pissed off he was literally blind with anger and couldn't see the manuscript that Rohan had, in fact Josuke is so pissed that he can't even find Rohan despite being a few feet in front of him in the open place, and starts stomping around. A literal blind rage.

And that's what I mean, on paper it sounds ok but when you actually look at the context and what happens, it obviously isn't the case.

You might not have used that as an example or argued that in particular, but that's kinda what most of your reasons to scale is coming off as, over simplifications of the actual events.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

it seems that you would be right, though the josuke one was a complete brain fart
however I will say that I looked into the janken boy fight with much more detail than the others
in that scene it is most definitely shown that his stand is able to grab heaven's door out of rohan before he can even react to it, and then pulls the stand out
not only that but it's unlikely that he was caught off guard either, as he already knew the kid was a stand user and rohan was clearly looking at him at the time
meaning that boy 2 man must be faster than heaven's door
he also was using his own stand at the time, and was clearly not using the power of heaven's door
see? It is absolutely impossible to say that janken boy isn't between mftl and ftl+
god I'm gonna have a heart attack if there is some way you can argue yourself outta this one....
anyways I never intentionally oversimplify anything, I just go with what I believe has the best argument at the time
so yeah just try to beat this argument, it's effectively airtight

 

[ZillertheBucko]

also might I add a little about Kira likely being ftl+
Josuke was clearly enraged at the time of the josuke vs kira close combat fight, and even has an aura similar to when he gets anngry
Kira may have been destroyed in that fight but, he does manage to slightly block Crazy Diamond with his arms, proving that Kira can at least react to Angry Diamond, which no matter how you put it, translates to his combat speed being at LEAST ftl if you're gonna be reacting to something that was able to force base star platinum to use time stop
as well as the fact that he blocked crazy diamond's homing glass putting him above lightspeed CASUALLY

 

[ZillertheBucko]

no response yet
I'm scared

 

[M3X_2.0]

He is not answering me in private, so yeah, be scared.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

He is not answering me in private, so yeah, be scared.

I have no clue what I’m gonna do if he somehow beats that last argument, I had to fact check myself like 10 times before sending it

 

[Chariot190]

it seems that you would be right, though the josuke one was a complete brain fart

I'm going to be completely blunt, stop wasting my time with this, if you can't even bother to look into your very first and most important example, cease, I don't have time to deal with this when you're essentially just saying things at this point to see what sticks, regardless of if it's right or wrong.
Your next reply better be good if you want to actually continue this.

however I will say that I looked into the janken boy fight with much more detail than the others

And I looked into all them, numerous times over, as well as guides, interviews, and even the raws, how much you looked over isn't really any indication of validity here.

in that scene it is most definitely shown that his stand is able to grab heaven's door out of rohan before he can even react to it, and then pulls the stand out

Literally false, blatantly, I straight up posted the scans, B2M comes out AFTER Heaven's Door is already being sucked in, which was done automatically due to the ability, he does indeed grab heaven's Door yeah, but that means **** all when heaven's Door's ability to act is heavily limited and it is literally in the process of being sucked out and into the dude who grabbed it, in which heaven's Door still reacts to it.
Rohan straight up DOES react to it, not only does Heaven's Door STOP what he's doing and looks straight at B2M as it's coming out to attack, meaning heaven Door reacts, but the immediate following panel is Rohan going "What?", meaning, of course, Rohan did indeed react to B2M coming out and grabbing HD, especially as the panel where HD is grabbed comes AFTER the panel where Rohan responds and reacts.

The sequence of panels is.
Heaven's Door gets sucked>B2M comes out and HD's looks at him; reacts>Rohan goes What!>HD is grabbed.

The anime shows this as well, Rohan reacts to B2M the moment he comes and before he grabs HD. "Nani!" being "What!", if that wasn't obvious.

not only that but it's unlikely that he was caught off guard either, as he already knew the kid was a stand user and rohan was clearly looking at him at the time meaning that boy 2 man must be faster than heaven's door

What the **** are you talking about? Rohan DIDNT know he was a Stand User, in fact Rohan was confused because he checked earlier that day if he was, only for it to say he wasn't a Stand User, which is why Rohan let his guard down. Hell, to save effort here, see the above anime clip, Rohan learns he's a Stand User within 2 onscreen seconds of when it comes out.

Like hell, Rohan learns he's a Stand User LITERALLY the EXACT PANEL before it comes out, literally the same page, that whole sequence is Rohan being shocked, but even then, he still reacts to all of it, even if he couldn't do anything about it due to having lost.
Like hell, even despite that all, Rohan is still fast enough to quickly turn him into a book still before Heaven's Door is sucked in fully (or well, 1/3rd fully), which he does to reconfirm he's a Stand User because literally that same day he was told he wasn't, he puts in a command, but it's to late, Janken can change it now.

he also was using his own stand at the time, and was clearly not using the power of heaven's door

The Stand that Heaven's Door and Rohan reacted to, the Stand that Rohan still turned around and had HD input written commands into before it could follow up properly?

see? It is absolutely impossible to say that janken boy isn't between mftl and ftl+

I'm literally doing exactly that, especially when one panel later Rohan blitzes him and the the preceding panels both Rohan and his Stand react to it. Only after he takes 1/3rd of HD's attributes does he even come close to Rohan, which is like, yeah, of course, that's his power.

god I'm gonna have a heart attack if there is some way you can argue yourself outta this one....

I'm not arguing with you, I'm telling you this isn't how it works, nor is that what even happened.
honestly I hate how you word this "argue your out of this one", I'm not trying to prove you wrong lad, but I'm going to tell you when your points don't add up, aren't accurate or are inherently false, if you bring up info that's solid and concrete, sure, I'll be happy to use that and we can implement and update whatever profiles accordingly, but you haven't really been bringing up solid straightforward information.

anyways I never intentionally oversimplify anything, I just go with what I believe has the best argument at the time

And yet youre doing it right now.

so yeah just try to beat this argument, it's effectively airtight

What the hell are you on about? "Try to beat this argument", lad I'm not here to argue with you, in fact this shouldn't even be an argument in the first place, I'm not here to play rhetoric's or who can spout enough stuff to see what sticks, I only care if it's right or wrong and what the source material indicates, there is no such thing as "this argument is airtight", because we're not arguing, I'm straight up telling you that isn't how it works and taking the most obtuse roundabout way to maybe get some scaling that might not even be legit isn't how we do things here, either it's solid and straightforward, or we're not using it, the only time this ain't the case is when it's heavily open to interpretation and there's lack of established feats otherwise outside of the context at hand essentially leading to it being extremely subjective but that ain't such a case, we go with what we can confirm, not estimations, and when we do, it best be warranted.

You want MFTL CD or some shit? Then wait, your best and likely only chance to get that is via the upcoming comic, Part 4 isn't gonna have what you're looking for because it doesn't exist unfortunately.

Josuke was clearly enraged at the time of the josuke vs kira close combat fight, and even has an aura similar to when he gets anngry

First off, no he wasn't, we can tell when he has he furious rage boost. Second off, Killer Queen and Kira were outright stated twice to have to hyperfocus to keep up with CD, they downscale, they aren't on par.

Kira may have been destroyed in that fight but, he does manage to slightly block Crazy Diamond with his arms, proving that Kira can at least react to Angry Diamond,

The very fact you lead off with "Kira was destroyed in that fight" should be a huge red flag. Second off, KQ was only shown comparable albeit still slower than NOT pissed CD, in fact the punch he blocked was a warning shot from CD because Josuke didn't know for sure it was Kira yet and Josuke himself states if he isn't Kira he'll just fix him and walk away.
Do you actually think Josuke was so pissed off he'd kill a man against a man he didn't know was Kira yet or not? That's rhetorical, of course he wasnt.

which no matter how you put it, translates to his combat speed being at LEAST ftl if you're gonna be reacting to something that was able to force base star platinum to use time stop

You're now testing my patience, you can't be serious, and if you are, don't, I'd prefer if you weren't.
Dude, you are unironically, ignoring the two statements saying KQ is below CD in speed, ignoring that's in regards to a not rage boosted CD, ignoring that CD even while furious is still quite a bit slower than SP and SP stopped time in that first fight EXPLICITLY because he was caught off guard and rusty, and that isn't even speculation, we're outright told he wasn't expecting Furious CD to be that capable and so was blindsided and stopped time to dodge the strike and cease the fight then and there so nobody got hurt.
The very fact we're told CD at his best is still slower than casual SP is the biggest red flag I could think of and the fact that's a key part of your argument is indication it's faulty at best.

as well as the fact that he blocked crazy diamond's homing glass putting him above lightspeed CASUALLY

And this is you just straight up not paying attention, again, for the umpteenth time.
Killer Queen deflected the shard CD flicked, after it was flicked CD used his restoration on it to turn it into a homing missile and to make it 180 and strike Kira in the back, which it does, and Kira doesn't react to it so we can't scale him to it.

Deflecting the initial flick isn't impressive, it's anything but, CD's flicked objects are only mach speeds, not FTL, it's EXPLICITLY his restoration at its highest known speed that is FTL, and that isn't what Kira reacts to, in fact it's what pegs him in the back, twice.

See look I'll even point it out for you,


See that? It's the anime version of the scene. The scenes are the exact same, but in order to help you out here, when Josuke flicks the object, it has purple aura, which is the color of objects flicked by CD, such as against Ratt.
KQ deflects it because of course he does, it ain't exactly fast.

Josuke proceeds to use the restoration on the shards and blood after the fact, the deflected shard is then covered in yellow aura, which is the aura to indicate that CD's restoration is being used, the shard 180's and pegs Kira.

And then again a second time later.

Like dude what the hell, I pointed out above in the VERY SAME post I brought this up that this instance is an example of what WOULDNT count.