John Constantine (Classic) profilemaking CRT (CAT? Content Addition Thread?)

[Armorchompy]

So I was having a jolly old time working on Pre-Flashpoint Constantine, debating on whether he should be 10-B or 10-A, almost done with the profile. And then right as I read his last few appearances I ran into a tier 1 feat and per the rules I'm going to have to make a CRT to get that accepted which is a pain and then my poor beautiful baby boy will be locked and I will never get to edit him again and I'm going to get a billion of annoying people asking me if I think he can beat The One Above All or Anos Voldemort while in reality on a bad day he could probably not even beat an average man in his 40's who goes to the gym two times a week holding a steel chair. But I digress.

Well there really isn't much to talk about, I'm not introducing any new feats it's just scaling, dude has a bunch of magic matches that let him make a wish when lit, which he used to take away God Swamp Thing's powers for one hour. God Swamp Thing is Low 1-C/1-A, in fact the latter scan is one of the ones used to justify his 1-A rating, so unless there's some weird verse mechanic I'm not aware of (and to be fair Swamp Thing is weird verse mechanic: the character), it should be an open and shut case. It's done with equipment so it doesn't scale to his magic (if it did it would be a mega outlier), the equipment in question has no anti-feats so like, yeah, "10-B (Or whatever ends up being most consistent when I go through the mound of feats and antifeats he has again), at least Low 1-C, possibly 1-A with Wishing Matches" will be his tier I think

 

[Armorchompy]

@Antvasima I would like if you could gather some input on this thread, when and if possible of course.

 

[Confluctor]

Anos Voldemort

Lmaooo

I can agree to that. Also ig just mentioning that he can power null tier 1s could also work. But I do prefer giving him a solid tier for it.

 

[SamanPatou]

The feat itself is good, but I don't know if we can rate Powernull hax as AP, despite it affecting a tier 1 character.

 

[Antvasima]

@C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Tllmbrg @Deagonx @Elizio33 @LordTracer @The_Impress @Planck69 @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Kulf_Boba

What do you think about this?

 

[Antvasima]

The feat itself is good, but I don't know if we can rate Powernull hax as AP, despite it affecting a tier 1 character.

This is a good point, and it is not remotely regular equipment for Constantine as far as I understand.

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean, it's not something he uses more than once or twice but he has access to it, and we still list equipment that is secondary to a character, for example Post-Flashpoint Batman's first key is 4-B based on what I think is only a couple of issues.

 

[Armorchompy]

As for why I believe it should have an AP rating, it's not limited to powernull, its power is to make wishes so it can totally do a lot more than that.

 

[Confluctor]

I am with Armor, it's essentially reality-warping hax on a very high level and we do give ratings via that wishing and reality are the same ig

 

[SamanPatou]

I guess Constantine could theoretically wish the Multiverse to be nuked, but I don't know if we can make such assumption.

The matches are fine as optional equipment.

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean, we're not making that assumption, but we do know that it's reality warping and we do tier reality warping.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

So I was having a jolly old time working on Pre-Flashpoint Constantine, debating on whether he should be 10-B or 10-A, almost done with the profile. And then right as I read his last few appearances I ran into a tier 1 feat and per the rules I'm going to have to make a CRT to get that accepted which is a pain and then my poor beautiful baby boy will be locked and I will never get to edit him again and I'm going to get a billion of annoying people asking me if I think he can beat The One Above All or Anos Voldemort while in reality on a bad day he could probably not even beat an average man in his 40's who goes to the gym two times a week holding a steel chair. But I digress.

Well there really isn't much to talk about, I'm not introducing any new feats it's just scaling, dude has a bunch of magic matches that let him make a wish when lit, which he used to take away God Swamp Thing's powers for one hour. God Swamp Thing is Low 1-C/1-A, in fact the latter scan is one of the ones used to justify his 1-A rating, so unless there's some weird verse mechanic I'm not aware of (and to be fair Swamp Thing is weird verse mechanic: the character), it should be an open and shut case. It's done with equipment so it doesn't scale to his magic (if it did it would be a mega outlier), the equipment in question has no anti-feats so like, yeah, "10-B, at least Low 1-C, possibly 1-A with Wishing Matches" will be his tier I think

To take note: Those aren't standard equipment. Those would be optional at best.

However, they are 100% legit. The explanation to their power is quite straightforward as well in the comic.
They have the power to take away ST's pre-godhood as he yet lacked the power of the Parliament of Flames, the oldest and strongest of all Elemental Parliaments from where the rest came from (as stated in that run).

Although those issues are so badly written not clear enough if being depowered was in fact part of his plan and he just let himself be, as after The Word was "killed", he could immediately get it back and finish claiming all Elemental power.

But yeah, ignoring personal speculation and the like, the matches should be Low 1-C/1-A.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah they're definitely optional and not even very in character to use considering it's something he does once or twice, but it is something he has access to.

 

[Antvasima]

I am obviously fine with if you add them as optional equipment.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah of course, but they would still count as AP.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, but not something that he can regularly use.

 

[Armorchompy]

Definitely, yeah.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, has this been accepted then?

 

[Armorchompy]

I believe so.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. It can probably be applied then.

 

[Armorchompy]

Alright, I'll be finishing the profile by the end of this week. Can I close this?

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose so. Just remember to link to this thread in the small edit summary box for the profile page when you edit it.

 

[Armorchompy]

The profile doesn't exist yet, I'm making it from scratch.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Eficiente]

I too don't know if they're AP or hax, as that characters says, "although your abilities rivalled those of the voice himself, your defenses were not impenetrable.", we could very reasonably interpret this as hax not on the level of the abilities it affected.

If it simply power null'd that tier 1 power then it's a tier 1 feat, but if it did something like cut off that normal human from the Green, then much isn't needed for it, and this latter take seems more likely.

 

[Chariot190]

people asking me if I think he can beat The One Above All or Anos Voldemort while in reality on a bad day he could probably not even beat an average man in his 40's who goes to the gym two times a week holding a steel chair. But I digress.

So what you're saying is that on a good day he could

 

[Armorchompy]

I too don't know if they're AP or hax, as that characters says, "although your abilities rivalled those of the voice himself, your defenses were not impenetrable.", we could very reasonably interpret this as hax not on the level of the abilities it affected.

This just means he did not have a resistance to the ability, this isn't the sort of situation where a character gains an external amp, Swamp Thing's very self was tier 1 at that moment, as I understand it.

If it simply power null'd that tier 1 power then it's a tier 1 feat, but if it did something like cut off that normal human from the Green, then much isn't needed for it, and this latter take seems more likely.

I don't believe this was the case, at least it's not specified and should not be the default assumption.

 

[Armorchompy]

So what you're saying is that on a good day he could

Yeah as long as the man only works out twice a week

 

[Chariot190]

I don't think TOAA works out at all so he should be safe.

 

[Eficiente]

but if it did something like cut off that normal human from the Green

To clarify, I meant cut off/cancel the conection between the human and the Green, that being 1 superpower that conducts other superpowers.

This just means he did not have a resistance to the ability

That isn't likely given the wording, with "abilities recognized but defenses criticized" it more likely implies the latter to not be on the same level as the former, rather than him lacking a resistance to the ability. Having resistances to hax isn't even standard, so why add in the explanation of what just happened how he lacked a resistance to something in this vague way?

 

[Armorchompy]

Well, something that is 1-A inherently resists anything that isn't 1-A by virtue of it not being able to affect them. So "you are strong but lack hax resistance" wouldn't by itself imply that the spell is lower than whatever Swamp Thing's HDE is.

 

[Eficiente]

That would only be the case if the dimensionality of the character is at that level, as the hax page says, you can be 3D and have those stats. I don't see HDE in his profile, it even says that he has Omnipresence that's "Either Planetary or Universal".

 

[Armorchompy]

I don't see HDE in his profile

It's an old page and a lot of modern ones still lack HDE for whatever reason, I wouldn't use that as evidence. But either way, I don't really care enough about this so I'll remove the rating for now since it is possible that John just cut him off from the Green, however that would work. I'd like to hear Lephyr's opinion though, since he actually knows the character.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Yeah, no. ST wasn't using "just" The Green at the time. Also, cutting off his connection to The Green doesn't work, as he not only has learned to connect to different Greens from other planets (capable of accessing their powers from Earth despite them being on other galaxies entirely), but the context of this entire arc hinged on ST attaining more and more power so he could challenge The Presence itself. Powers that he himself described as "beyond" The Green (used when referring to The Blue and The Melt, much less once attained the level he had when he got depowered).

The Wishing Matches had the power of an elemental parliament that, by itself, could equal that same power (also, keep in mind; ST was already so powerful at the time, The Word didn't dare challenge him before being depowered, that should say more than enough)

 

[Armorchompy]

Oh, true, I forgot that the matches' power came from the absolute strongest parliament too, that's to be noted.

@Eficiente do you still have issues with the rating?

 

[Eficiente]

Ok then, I'm not against it.

 

[Armorchompy]

Alright, can I make the file, then?

 

[Eficiente]

Yes.

 

[Armorchompy]

Alright, I have done so and will lock the thread

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to everybody who helped out here.