JJK - Zenin CRT

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

She is not. Maki is noted to be born a non-sorcerer so anything that would apply to sorcerer's wouldn't apply to her in the first place. And secondly, Maki also lacks any showcase of accelerated development. I don't understand why we've been trying to use that scan to give every sorcerer AD when it should've always been on a case by case basis. The best that could really be argued here is that after her Heavenly Restriction is completed and would be through Training not Battle since the upgrade she got in her rematch with Naoya only came as a result of her training with the sumo wrestler but even that has the addition that they had a lot more time in there then outside. So Maki doesn't qualify for this even when looking at her statement.

1. Maki is quite literally enrolled in Jujutsu High, albeit even as a Grade 4.
2. She’s wearing cursed glasses, meaning she fits the bare minimum requirement to be a sorcerer.
3. She’s wearing the uniform.
4. Todo and Mei Mei send their recommendations for the Tokyo students (including Maki) to become Grade 1.
5. Kenjaku considers her part of Jujutsu’s High heavy hitters.

I don’t know how you could come to the conclusion she wasn’t a sorcerer when nothing ever suggests that. I don’t really care if she does or doesn’t get AD, but to say she isn’t is just absurd, why would she even be graded at all if she wasn’t?

 

[ImmortalDread]

I thought the whole time Maki is sorcerer or trained to be one when I watched first the series, huh

 

[Duedate8898]

Maki is explicitly called out as a non-sorcerer, that's why Kenjaku tries to kill her and that's part of why the Zenin clan hates her. Because she is classfied as a non-sorcerer due to her lack of cursed energy. To act like she counts as a sorcerer, ignores something at the core of her character that the series attempts to illustrate very clearly. So any statements which would be applied to those who possess a capacity to utilize cursed energy should not apply to her.

 

[ImmortalDread]

No? They want to kill her because she is no cursed energy user and depends herself on skills.

 

[Arkenis]

It is one statement about consequences making people grow quicker, which Maki never demonstrates in any of her fights. She's only shown to grow stronger through either the completion of her heavenly restriction or training, so the fact that Maki fails to demonstrate this should be telling enough to say that this Accelerated Development doesn't apply to her. And the reason why I mentions sorcerer's is not because of the first scan but because of the full context behind the second scan. Which in relation to Megumi explicitly calls out sorcerer's growth is not easy and requires a firm base, skill, and imagination, which not every sorcerer we see in the series possess. Accelerated Development should just be given to those that show it for JJK, not to every sorcerer or person that fights on their level.

No. Just because we don't see every single sorcerer accel within a fight does not mean we restrict it only to the ones that do. We have several statements supporting that sorcerers can accel within a fight so we apply that. It's that simple.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Maki is explicitly called out as a non-sorcerer, that's why Kenjaku tries to kill her and that's part of why the Zenin clan hates her. Because she is classfied as a non-sorcerer due to her lack of cursed energy. To act like she counts as a sorcerer, ignores something at the core of her character that the series attempts to illustrate very clearly.

Can you show me where that’s said? Because Maki is explicitly stated to be a sorcerer by numerous sources. The guidebook, multiple characters from Todo, to Mei Mei, to Nobara, to the fact that she’s literally graded under Jujutsu High’s schedule. I’m not the one ignoring her character, you are, because that’s precisely what the plot says, on multiple occasions.

 

[Arkenis]

Duedate I think you're viewing this non sorcerer and sorcerer thing from the perspective of the Zenin family, who hates her, others see her as a sorcerer in the series.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Duedate I think you're viewing this non sorcerer and sorcerer thing from the perspective of the Zenin family, who hates her, others see her as a sorcerer in the series.

Ya I had the same point of view, while watching the series.

Maki is explicitly called out as a non-sorcerer

The claim can be verified if you would ideally send a specific evidence that directly supports this assertion.

 

[Duedate8898]

Sorcerer's in JJK has two meanings, one is that of those employed at the schools to hunt down curses, the other meaning is in-reference to people who do not possess the cursed energy to utilize Jujutsu. The usage of sorcerer I'm talking about is the latter one, which is what the quotes surrounding megumi is talking about. The entirety of Chapter 136 explicitly calls out this divide, Geto's big downfall calls out this divide in Chapter 65, and Ogi's statements about sorcerer's reinforcing themselves draws a clear line between someone like Maki who is heavenly restricted and sorcerer's. The Zenin's defintion of sorcerer isn't unique to them, and Maki is only a sorcerer in the sense that she hunts cursed spirits. When talking about Accelerated Development cursed energy is essential for the process as both the megumi statement and the original reason given for Kenjaku's big plan shows. So Maki shouldn't have it because she doesn't have Cursed Energy and more importantly, she's never showcased the ability itself.

That first statement she gave isn't enough to give every character in JJK accelerated development especially when such explosive growth is noted as exceptional and even considered a divider within the series, such as the likes of Black Flash users or Gojo and Mahito who are considered exceptional because of rapidly they can develop in power.

Accelerated Development for Maki is a no go.

 

[Arkenis]

Sorcerer's in JJK has two meanings, one is that of those employed at the schools to hunt down curses, the other meaning is in-reference to people who do not possess the cursed energy to utilize Jujutsu. The usage of sorcerer I'm talking about is the latter one, which is what the quotes surrounding megumi is talking about. The entirety of Chapter 136 explicitly calls out this divide, Geto's big downfall calls out this divide in Chapter 65, and Ogi's statements about sorcerer's reinforcing themselves draws a clear line between someone like Maki who is heavenly restricted and sorcerer's. The Zenin's defintion of sorcerer isn't unique to them, and Maki is only a sorcerer in the sense that she hunts cursed spirits. When talking about Accelerated Development cursed energy is essential for the process as both the megumi statement and the original reason given for Kenjaku's big plan shows. So Maki shouldn't have it because she doesn't have Cursed Energy and more importantly, she's never showcased the ability itself.

That first statement she gave isn't enough to give every character in JJK accelerated development especially when such explosive growth is noted as exceptional and even considered a divider within the series, such as the likes of Black Flash users or Gojo and Mahito who are considered exceptional because of rapidly they can develop in power.

Accelerated Development for Maki is a no go.

Nothing you've said disproves that the characters CAN accel in combat, As Megumi's statement very blatantly says "A person CAN change" so it does not matter if they haven't shown it, so it CAN apply to all and more importantly several sorcerers have shown accel dev such as Higuruma, Yuji, Megumi, Yuta. And Maki's statement is textbook accel dev,
I got no idea why you brought up Black Flash, people get awakened power from it not accel dev. Also what do you even think Maki means when she says that to Yuta, are you just ignoring its meaning or something?

 

[Duedate8898]

What I'm saying is that Maki's statement by itself isn't good evidence to give her Accelerated Development. We shouldn't t give a power like Accelerated Development off of one statement, especially if it lacks any supporting feats or statements to build off of it. And the issue here isn't disproving that the character can accel in combat, it's that you have to prove that Maki has showcased this ability you're trying to give her. The full context behind the megumi statement as I posted in an earlier scan goes "A Jujutsu Sorcerer's growth, never comes easy. With a firm base, skill, and imagination, a person can change thanks to the slightest of events."

Maki can not perform jujutsu, she inherently lacks the skill/firm base to do so, she is missing at least one of the core features that statement speaks of. So explosive growth in the way that megumi showcases can not be applied to her. Then when we look at all of Maki's fights in the series, of which there are about six, Maki is never shown growing in any similar manner to the likes of Yuji, Megumi, Nobara, Mahito or anyone else who we know to possess Accelerated Development in the series. Her rapid growth in power came from only two things: Her Heavenly Restriction being completed and her getting a mini hyperbolic time-chamber to train in. Neither of these would fall under Accelerated Development. so because she lacks the feats and also most talks of accelerated development would leave her out of the conversation, Maki should not have Accelerated Development.

 

[Arkenis]

What I'm saying is that Maki's statement by itself isn't good evidence to give her Accelerated Development. We shouldn't t give a power like Accelerated Development off of one statement, especially if it lacks any supporting feats or statements to build off of it. And the issue here isn't disproving that the character can accel in combat, it's that you have to prove that Maki has showcased this ability you're trying to give her. The full context behind the megumi statement as I posted in an earlier scan goes "A Jujutsu Sorcerer's growth, never comes easy. With a firm base, skill, and imagination, a person can change thanks to the slightest of events."

Maki can not perform jujutsu, she inherently lacks the skill/firm base to do so, she is missing at least one of the core features that statement speaks of. So explosive growth in the way that megumi showcases can not be applied to her. Then when we look at all of Maki's fights in the series, of which there are about six, Maki is never shown growing in any similar manner to the likes of Yuji, Megumi, Nobara, Mahito or anyone else who we know to possess Accelerated Development in the series. Her rapid growth in power came from only two things: Her Heavenly Restriction being completed and her getting a mini hyperbolic time-chamber to train in. Neither of these would fall under Accelerated Development. so because she lacks the feats and also most talks of accelerated development would leave her out of the conversation, Maki should not have Accelerated Development.

I'm not using that statement for Maki here, I'm using her statement when talking to Yuta to give her accel. You are ignoring her statement because she hasn't shown accel dev, but my issue is that accel dev is not always shown and can simply be stated, and the way Maki seems to mean it is through skills as she's sparring with Yuta who becomes complacent in his way of fighting , She's never had to develop her skills in combat because she's generally been more skilled than anyone she's fought, so of course we aren't gonna see it in her fights, also reminds me that I need to add what Accel dev sorcerers have as well.

Anyway my point is Maki has accel dev in her skills but since she hasn't fought someone more skilled, we never see that development activated/needed.

 

[Duedate8898]

Her fights with Dagon, Hanami, and second battle with Naoya disprove that notion. Against Hanami while not constantly on the backfoot she very much is the weak link throughout that entire battle and fails to show any noticeable growth to help close the gap between her and her opponent, then we have Dagon where she could literally do nothing for most of that fight and still failed to show any sign of growth. Her biggest offender is her fight with Naoya though cause she does show a rapid acceleration in growth, but her manner of doing so is not reliant on battle but through training in an area of accelerated time so she had enough time to grow. All three of these fights actively go against her possessing a power such as accelerated development, and the final fight I mentioned shows us something exactly counter to her possessing Accelerated Development

 

[Arkenis]

Her fights with Dagon, Hanami, and second battle with Naoya disprove that notion. Against Hanami while not constantly on the backfoot she very much is the weak link throughout that entire battle and fails to show any noticeable growth to help close the gap between her and her opponent, then we have Dagon where she could literally do nothing for most of that fight and still failed to show any sign of growth. Her biggest offender is her fight with Naoya though cause she does show a rapid acceleration in growth, but her manner of doing so is not reliant on battle but through training in an area of accelerated time so she had enough time to grow. All three of these fights actively go against her possessing a power such as accelerated development, and the final fight I mentioned shows us something exactly counter to her possessing Accelerated Development

All those people aren't more skilled than her. You're missing my point. This is about her getting skilled based accel dev not stat accel dev.

 

[Duedate8898]

Looking at the statements given for how accelerated development works in JJK, it isn't based upon encountering someone more skilled. It's based upon being placed in stressful situations then pushing forward. That's how Yuji's works, that's how Megumi's works, that's how Mahito's works, that's how every character in the series who would get the ability functions. So if Maki isn't showing it then she doesn't get it.

I'm done talking about this.

If you change that and everything else outlined, I approve the thread. Otherwise, check with another admin to see if they agree.

 

[Arkenis]

bump

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I disagree, Maki should definitely get AD. Most sorceror's AD is surrounding their metaphysical aspects (which in turn can strengthen CT, enhance creativity, lead to a DE as in Megumi's case, etc) like resolve/willpower, creativity, understanding of jujutsu/CE/the soul, etc. Those with heavenly restriction are pretty much the same except their physical bodies grow at an alarming rate and adapt quickly. This would be evident given that HR users aren't just born at a set level.

I mean, for instance, Maki went from her live being on the line from a simple curse wound in Volume 0, to being able to survive against Dagon even prior to her powerup, and then obviously against a foe like cursed Naoya.

 

[Arkenis]

So thinking, since Toji's soul information wasn't carried over, he should have resistance to soul manip since its not in the real world yeah?

 

[Dr._whiteee]

So thinking, since Toji's soul information wasn't carried over, he should have resistance to soul manip since its not in the real world yeah?

Doubtful for zombie Toji as he was arguably utilizing Oogami's grandson's soul and just took over with his body info alone. Living Toji obviously wouldn't benefit since his soul is in his body.

 

[Shey]

. And I'm pretty sure it is said that Puppet Toji gets weaker over time and is considerably inferior

Puppet of Carnage Toji is actually his Prime, the seance Technique summoned him as Toji Zen'in instead of Toji Fushiguro which was his Prime.
Him getting weaker also isn't a thing cause Toji's body doesn't use CE so it's indefinite.

That key is definitely superior to Hidden Inventory Toji

 

[Arkenis]

bump

 

[Arkenis]

bump

 

[Catpija]

Maki should has resistance to possession as Heavenly Restriction could clash with Kenjaku's technique which can take over the body.

Q: Has he ever considered to take over Gojo Satoru and Fushiguro Touji?
A: Gojo is impossible. To put it simply, he can’t be killed. Touji isn’t impossible, but if he is to take over Touji’s body, there’s a fear that Touji’s Heavenly Restriction and his technique may clash, so there’s not a lot reason to take over the two of them.

 

[Arkenis]

Maki should has resistance to possession as Heavenly Restriction could clash with Kenjaku's technique which can take over the body.

Q: Has he ever considered to take over Gojo Satoru and Fushiguro Touji?
A: Gojo is impossible. To put it simply, he can’t be killed. Touji isn’t impossible, but if he is to take over Touji’s body, there’s a fear that Touji’s Heavenly Restriction and his technique may clash, so there’s not a lot reason to take over the two of them.

Alright

 

[Duedate8898]

Potential resistance here, just because it's less Kenjaku knows for sure and more Kenjaku doesn't want make that bet in the first place.

 

[Arkenis]

Potential resistance here, just because it's less Kenjaku knows for sure and more Kenjaku doesn't want make that bet in the first place.

I listed it as limited. I was a bit iffy on it as well. Would possibly be fine?

 

[Catpija]

Potential resistance here, just because it's less Kenjaku knows for sure and more Kenjaku doesn't want make that bet in the first place.

It should be consistent with how Toji can overpower the soul's information with his body's information to take over.

 

[Arkenis]

It should be consistent with how Toji can overpower the soul's information with his body's information to take over.

His body info did that. It's unknown if that was because of heavenly restriction.

 

[Catpija]

His body info did that. It's unknown if that was because of heavenly restriction.

Didn't Heavenly Restriction affect the body? Its not far-fetched to say that it was due to Heavenly Restriction.

Maybe it should be likely resistance?

 

[Arkenis]

Didn't Heavenly Restriction affect the body? Its not far-fetched to say that it was due to Heavenly Restriction.

Maybe it should be likely resistance?

U know what relooking at it, Toji actually does imply its due to the body aka HR so it should just be outright resistance for both

Edit: I do wanna also add that Kenjaku's possession vs Granny's seance tech are likely different with Kenjaku simply taking control over the body via swapping brains while Granny's is about summoning the body info onto a new body

 

[SunDaGamer]

U know what relooking at it, Toji actually does imply its due to the body aka HR so it should just be outright resistance for both

Edit: I do wanna also add that Kenjaku's possession vs Granny's seance tech are likely different with Kenjaku simply taking control over the body via swapping brains while Granny's is about summoning the body info onto a new body

Wouldn't Kenjaku taking over Toji's original body result in the same effect? Geto's body acted out against Kenjaku when Gojo attempted to reach out to Geto leading to Kenjaku's conclusion that the body is the soul and the soul the body as opposed to Mahito's interpretation of the soul preceeding the body which then served as foreshadowing for Ogami's Seance Technique reviving Toji.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Has this been concluded?

 

[Arkenis]

need one more mod

 

[Arkenis]

bump

 

[Arkenis]

bump

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Ask @DarkDragonMedeus on his wall

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good to me.

 

[Arkenis]

Looks good to me.

will apply changes rn. this can be closed also

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Alright, will do and thank you for helping out.