JJK - Maki and Toji's Ap

[SunDaGamer]

Yeah so Maki and Toji still being 8-A just doesn't make sense.

Maki

1. For starters Maki's power while being fatigued and injured is still on the level of knocking Naoya out, a high tier first grade who can take a kick from Choso
2. After this Maki then undergoes training with Miyo, and comes out being stated "its like she suddenly grew", not too important, some might say only in senses but it should be overall since it was training to progress her body more.
3. Next we have Maki being stated to be an equal to Toji.
4. Included in JJH's main force alongside Yuta and Hakari, two characters we have rated at Low 7-C
5. Before Okkotsu and Takeba, they considered bringing in Maki, and Kenjaku admits to specifically surveying her, noting her physical prowess, and how he’ll need to be on guard with her.

Maki and Toji should be Low 7-C.

How Maki's would look.


Toji's can stay the same as most his scaling is derived from Maki's

Toji scales to 8-A from being superior to Hidden Inventory Arc Geto who was Grade 1 level at the time and then Teen Geto and Teen Gojo were equals with Geto not declaring Gojo the sole strongest until a year after Gojo learned RCT. Toji was bleeding after taking a Red from Gojo and Red is a x2 amp so it isn't even indexed as 8-A+ for Post-Awakening key Gojo.

Maki's final step before being fully realized was about gaining senses equal to Toji, not strengthening her body even more, Maki can just get a separate key for Shinjuku Showdown when we get feats for her

 

[Arkenis]

Toji scales to 8-A from being superior to Hidden Inventory Arc Geto who was Grade 1 level at the time and then Teen Geto and Teen Gojo were equals with Geto not declaring Gojo the sole strongest until a year after Gojo learned RCT. Toji was bleeding after taking a Red from Gojo and Red is a x2 amp so it isn't even indexed as 8-A+ for Post-Awakening key Gojo.

Maki's final step before being fully realized was about gaining senses equal to Toji, not strengthening her body even more, Maki can just get a separate key for Shinjuku Showdown when we get feats for her

Can you respond to the points I made? Why is Gojo even being brought up here?

 

[SunDaGamer]

Can you respond to the points I made? Why is Gojo even being brought up here?

My point is that Toji and Maki have nothing to scale them to Low 7-C other than Maki being included in the main fighting force after a timeskip where everybody got stronger, Maki before Shinjuku Showdown could be baseline 8-A+ (550 Tons) and have a scaling chain with one-shots but still be 8-A+ if she doesn't have any direct scaling to someone in the next tier

 

[Arkenis]

My point is that Toji and Maki have nothing to scale them to Low 7-C other than Maki being included in the main fighting force after a timeskip where evrybody got stronger

When is it said everyone got stronger? Or better yet when is it said Maki got stronger?

 

[SunDaGamer]

When is it said everyone got stronger? Or better yet when is it said Maki got stronger?

Everybody spent the time leading up to the arc preparing and training which Sukuna backs up by noting that the sorcerers he was fighting that drastically improved their fundamentals in Cursed Energy strengthening/reinforcement. I could also make the argument that what makes Maki apart of the main fighting force is the fact that she has a dura neg sword and is hard to detect due to her lack of Cursed Energy which sets her up for a one-shot sneak attack because Shinjuku Arc Maki is featless rn.

 

[Arkenis]

Everybody spent the time leading up to the arc preparing and training which Sukuna backs up by noting that the sorcerers he was fighting that drastically improved their fundamentals in Cursed Energy strengthening/reinforcement. I could also make the argument that what makes Maki apart of the main fighting force is the fact that she has a dura neg sword and is hard to detect due to her lack of Cursed Energy which sets her up for a one-shot sneak attack because Shinjuku Arc Maki is featless rn.

So the one thing you bring up for proving everyone got stronger is something Maki can't get stronger in? And you could argue that but given Kenjaku brings up her being a physically gifted awakened type, its he's wary of physical strength, not her sword nor her being untraceable. Also does Kenjaku even know about the sword?

Maki's final step before being fully realized was about gaining senses equal to Toji, not strengthening her body even more, Maki can just get a separate key for Shinjuku Showdown when we get feats for her

Maki is bringing up two things here that Toji could do which are physical feats and not sensing feats, him being able to handle everything at Naoya's speed, and him being able to jump high into the air. And think about it, Maki and Miyo engaged in 1000 bouts, bouts are a short period of intense activity of a specified kind.

No matter how you wanna spin this her body was being trained here and Kamo and Daido both acknowledge she's completely changed without any knowledge of her gaining new sensory capabilities.

 

[SunDaGamer]

So the one thing you bring up for proving everyone got stronger is something Maki can't get stronger in?

Everybody spent the time leading up to the arc preparing and training

If everyone was spending time improving their CE reinforcement then they were training, all it does is shed doubt on the assumption that Maki was doing nothing during that timeskip.

And you could argue that but given Kenjaku brings up her being a physically gifted awakened type, its he's wary of physical strength, not her sword nor her being untraceable.

Kenjaku was on guard against everybody here, he notes Maki as another person who's after him on top of potentially any other sorcerers.

Maki is bringing up two things here that Toji could do which are physical feats and not sensing feats, him being able to handle everything at Naoya's speed, and him being able to jump high into the air.

Literally both of those things you listed as physical feats were things made possible to Maki through gaining Toji's senses. Maki is able to intercept Naoya thanks to being able to predict him with her heightened senses, these senses are the same reason why she can freely jump in the air now, she isn't air jumping through pure strength. It's pretty heavily framed that what Maki was missing from being equal to Toji was senses.

And think about it, Maki and Miyo engaged in 1000 bouts, bouts are a short period of intense activity of a specified kind.

And there's nothing to indicate Maki jumped tiers in strength off of that especially when the main focus is on Maki's new senses.

No matter how you wanna spin this her body was being trained here and Kamo and Daido both acknowledge she's completely changed without any knowledge of her gaining new sensory capabilities.

That doesn't really tell us she got stronger and when we are shown what changed, the focus is on senses

 

[Arkenis]

If everyone was spending time improving their CE reinforcement then they were training, all it does is shed doubt on the assumption that Maki was doing nothing during that timeskip.

It still does not prove she got stronger. I'm sure she did but it really does not matter to this crt.

Kenjaku was on guard against everybody here, he notes Maki as another person who's after him on top of potentially any other sorcerers.

How does this address my point when he's wary of her due to her gifted body, address that.

Literally both of those things you listed as physical feats were things made possible to Maki through gaining Toji's senses. Maki is able to intercept Naoya thanks to being able to predict him with her heightened senses, these senses are the same reason why she can freely jump in the air now, she isn't air jumping through pure strength. It's pretty heavily framed that what Maki was missing from being equal to Toji was senses.

Read the page again, Maki says Toji would be able to handle everything at that speed, this means her body's ability to move at that speed and react not just senses. Do you think Maki was just always Mach 3 but just couldn't move that speed cuz of her senses?

And there's nothing to indicate Maki jumped tiers in strength off of that especially when the main focus is on Maki's new senses.

Well its clearly not just her senses when two different characters noticed she's changed completely from the 1000 bouts. Why ignore this entire point? And no one said she jumped tiers lmao, her scaling even while weakened puts her above 8-A characters like Choso and Naoya, and I'm now arguing she's Low 7-C, seems like you tryna exaggerate what I'm proposing here when its simple scaling.

That doesn't really tell us she got stronger and when we are shown what changed, the focus is on senses

No the focus is not only senses, its her as a fighter overall. You are deliberately ignoring the fact that her body would have been trained during the 1000 bouts but you're fine with saying she got stronger over the month timeskip when you have no idea what she did for the whole month. You aren't making sense here.

 

[SunDaGamer]

How does this address my point when he's wary of her due to her gifted body, address that.

I've used barrier techniques to conceal cursed spirits around myself and Shinjuku. They're on the lookout for certain things. One is cursed energy volume. I know the aggregate cursed energy for all the sorcerers... If even one leaves, I'll know it.... Of course, I have shared vision with all the cursed spirits... In addition to Maki Zenin, a physically gifted awakened type, there's Mei-Mei's younger brother.... which means I can't only be on guard against sorcerers.

Where does it say he's wary because of her strength, he's talking about how he's accounting for every fighter and keeping track of them here in this scene.

Read the page again, Maki says Toji would be able to handle everything at that speed, this means her body's ability to move at that speed and react not just senses. Do you think Maki was just always Mach 3 but just couldn't move that speed cuz of her senses?

She's saying Toji would be able to handle Mach 3 Naoya charging at him instead of being completely blitzed (we literally get shown a flashback to that scene which shows that's the situation she's talking about). Deflecting a moving object coming toward you doesn't make you scale 1:1 with its speed, a character can be subsonic and cut supersonic bullets in half if they start reacting when it's far away enough, then a character with analytical prediction can do that even more easily.

Well its clearly not just her senses when two different characters noticed she's changed completely from the 1000 bouts. Why ignore this entire point? And no one said she jumped tiers lmao, her scaling even while weakened puts her above 8-A characters like Choso and Naoya, and I'm now arguing she's Low 7-C, seems like you tryna exaggerate what I'm proposing here when its simple scaling.

They notice she's different and then we're shown the difference when the narrative gets all fixated senses (Maki literally meantions sight like 6 times). When she does get to the end of her bouts, Miyo's talking about senses when it comes to Maki seeking what she was missing out on there's nothing about getting significantly stronger.
We currently have Toji bleeding after being ragdolled by an attack that isn't even indexed at 8-A+ and 10% 15F Sukuna not even scaling to 200 tons of TNT, scaling Maki off of being put besides Hakari and Yuta isn't gonna work rn until we actually get more feats from her.

No the focus is not only senses, its her as a fighter overall. You are deliberately ignoring the fact that her body would have been trained during the 1000 bouts but you're fine with saying she got stronger over the month timeskip when you have no idea what she did for the whole month. You aren't making sense here.

Besides the fact that Sumo bouts usually don't even last for more than a few seconds and have a maximum limit of 4 minutes so the time to do 1000 bouts is a fraction of even a week and that 50% of the dudes with the main Jujutsu group are probably stronger sparring partners:

scaling Maki off of being put besides Hakari and Yuta isn't gonna work rn until we actually get more feats from her.

 

[Arkenis]

Where does it say he's wary because of her strength, he's talking about how he's accounting for every fighter and keeping track of them here in this scene.

Her being a physically awakened gifted type is all about one's physicals, you're joking if you think this has nothing to do with how strong she is.

She's saying Toji would be able to handle Mach 3 Naoya charging at him instead of being completely blitzed (we literally get shown a flashback to that scene which shows that's the situation she's talking about). Deflecting a moving object coming toward you doesn't make you scale 1:1 with its speed, a character can be subsonic and cut supersonic bullets in half if they start reacting when it's far away enough, then a character with analytical prediction can do that even more easily.

I'd agree with you if it wasn't for how its worded, she says he can handle everything at that speed, its not about him just reacting to Naoya and the fact we later see Maki can outrun him I think is enough proof to show you this is about their speed overall.

They notice she's different and then we're shown the difference when the narrative gets all fixated senses (Maki literally meantions sight like 6 times). When she does get to the end of her bouts, Miyo's talking about senses when it comes to Maki seeking what she was missing out on.
We currently have Toji bleeding after being ragdolled by an attack that isn't even indexed at 8-A+, scaling Maki off of being put besides Hakari and Yuta isn't gonna work rn until we actually get more feats from her.

Why does Gojo matter here? Toji and Maki's scaling has zero to do with Gojo lmao, this Red point is not at relevant to the overall scaling and is just a side-note if anything so why act as though it should halt their scaling? And the Maki statement about her being part of the main force is after the time skip my guy, why do you think we need feats for something that's already told to us?

Besides the fact that Sumo bouts usually don't even last for more than a few seconds and have a maximum limit of 4 minutes so the time to do 1000 bouts is a fraction of even a week and that 50% of the dudes with the main Jujutsu group are probably stronger sparring partners:

Yet she came out a completely different person to Kamo and Daido, and then can outrun Naoya, something she previously was unable to do.

 

[SunDaGamer]

Maki can outrun him I think is enough proof to show you this is about their speed overall.

She never outran a Naoya who had built up significant speed (keeping in mind how long and far it takes Naoya to hit Mach 3), here he is covering way more distance than Maki in the same timeframe. When she does intercept Naoya, it's against a Naoya who had stopped his acceleration and had just begun it again.

Why does Gojo matter here? Toji and Maki's scaling has zero to do with Gojo lmao, this Red point is not at relevant to the overall scaling and is just a side-note if anything so why act as though it should halt their scaling? And the Maki statement about her being part of the main force is after the time skip my guy, why do you think we need feats for something that's already told to us?

Toji is hurt and bleeding from an attack that isn't even scaled to be 8-A+ and has to rely on the ISoH which nullifies techniques to block it. We have the statement of Shinjuku Showdown Arc Maki being apart of the main force but haven't seen her do anything yet, I'd rather wait for her part in the arc to conclude before updating profiles.

 

[Arkenis]

She never outran a Naoya who had built up significant speed (keeping in mind how long and far it takes Naoya to hit Mach 3), here he is covering way more distance than Maki in the same timeframe. When she does intercept Naoya, it's against a Naoya who had stopped his acceleration and had just begun it again.

Why did you leave the panel before out? He's tryna catch her and she's running around the city with him never touching her.

Toji is hurt and bleeding from an attack that isn't even scaled to be 8-A+ and has to rely on the ISoH which nullifies techniques to block it. We have the statement of Shinjuku Showdown Arc Maki being apart of the main force but haven't seen her do anything yet, I'd rather wait for her part in the arc to conclude before updating profiles.

Again saying Toji scales lower due to Red ignores the scaling that's already been put forward.

 

[KingTempest]

Why did you leave the panel before out? He's tryna catch her and she's running around the city with him never touching her.

She didn't outrun him in a single scenario.

We see him outrun her, her senses just let her dodge better.

 

[Jo-Smooth]

I’m neutral towards Low 7-C Maki, but what I dont think using points 3, 4, and 5 are valid justifications. Toji doesn’t have low 7-C scaling and Kenjaku calling her a heavy hitter and being weary of her isn’t necessarily valid justification. Kenjaku is on the outside looking in and is always extra cautious and careful by nature. One could argue that it doesn’t mean Maki’s on Yuta and Hakari’s level, but that she’s the 3rd strongest among the Jujutsu faction, despite not scaling to them. And with Kenjaku having Geto’s memories and knowledge of a heavenly restricted beings properties and the fact that their the goats of sneak attacks due to said properties, it makes sense.

Supporting evidence is that after hearing that Kenjaku killed Yuki, Maki blatantly admits they can’t beat Kenjaku by conventional means, which is her admitting inferiority to Yuki who most would say is in the same tier as or weaker than Yuta with the ‘Second only to Gojo’ statement. Or at the very least, she doesn’t consider herself to be on that Special Grade Sorcerer tier despite being = to Toji (who himself never has Special Grade Sorcerer tier scaling as he beat very high tier Grade 1 Sorcerers and a Disaster Curse)

After the one month skip and most likely seeing everyone’s current levels and knowing Maki is at least equal to Toji, if not surpassing him during the one month if she trained too, Gojo considers Yuta and Hakari as the first 2 that should jump in to help take on Sukuna. (Via Hakari’s words). In this same scene Maki offers to go since she sees Yuta as too valuable of an asset to go. Again somewhat implying inferiority to him

In a different scene Yuta also expresses that Kenjaku can’t complete his plan as long as he and Hakari are around, also implying that those 2 stand at the top of the Jujutsu High Hierarchy

There’s also the fact that Uraume casually (attack speed) blitzed one shot (sealed) an on guard Maki…casually being a word used loosely since she used Maximum Output but otherwise didn’t seem too concerned…but then when fighting Hakari, he literally lands 2 clean hits on them and Uraume goes into a monologue about Hakari and says they need to go all out against him. Not the most direct way of saying Hakari > Maki, but it’s implications

Whether she scales to Low 7-C or not, I don’t think points 3-5 are valid justification. Even points 1 and 2 are shaky as scaling above 8-A’s and getting stronger doesn’t necessarily mean you’re in the next tier, but I’m neutral on those points

 

[KingTempest]

Can't Maki canonically not get stronger due to her body being fully realized?

Before Mai's death it was stated that she couldn't grow, then after it she was "fully realized".

Maki's incapable of growing in strength

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Can't Maki canonically not get stronger due to her body being fully realized?

Before Mai's death it was stated that she couldn't grow, then after it she was "fully realized".

Maki's incapable of growing in strength

Can I see the statement I forgot about that.

Btw now that @SunDaGamer & @Jo-Smooth made some good arguments I think it's better to wait for current arc to end. Maki & Toji should keep 8-A rating, Maki can get a new key for current arc if we have something to say she grow stronger like Sun stated.

 

[JnSteHar002]

I’m neutral towards Low 7-C Maki, but what I dont think using points 3, 4, and 5 are valid justifications. Toji doesn’t have low 7-C scaling and Kenjaku calling her a heavy hitter and being weary of her isn’t necessarily valid justification. Kenjaku is on the outside looking in and is always extra cautious and careful by nature. One could argue that it doesn’t mean Maki’s on Yuta and Hakari’s level, but that she’s the 3rd strongest among the Jujutsu faction, despite not scaling to them. And with Kenjaku having Geto’s memories and knowledge of a heavenly restricted beings properties and the fact that their the goats of sneak attacks due to said properties, it makes sense.

Supporting evidence is that after hearing that Kenjaku killed Yuki, Maki blatantly admits they can’t beat Kenjaku by conventional means, which is her admitting inferiority to Yuki who most would say is in the same tier as or weaker than Yuta with the ‘Second only to Gojo’ statement. Or at the very least, she doesn’t consider herself to be on that Special Grade Sorcerer tier despite being = to Toji (who himself never has Special Grade Sorcerer tier scaling as he beat very high tier Grade 1 Sorcerers and a Disaster Curse)

After the one month skip and most likely seeing everyone’s current levels and knowing Maki is at least equal to Toji, if not surpassing him during the one month if she trained too, Gojo considers Yuta and Hakari as the first 2 that should jump in to help take on Sukuna. (Via Hakari’s words). In this same scene Maki offers to go since she sees Yuta as too valuable of an asset to go. Again somewhat implying inferiority to him

In a different scene Yuta also expresses that Kenjaku can’t complete his plan as long as he and Hakari are around, also implying that those 2 stand at the top of the Jujutsu High Hierarchy

There’s also the fact that Uraume casually (attack speed) blitzed one shot (sealed) an on guard Maki…casually being a word used loosely since she used Maximum Output but otherwise didn’t seem too concerned…but then when fighting Hakari, he literally lands 2 clean hits on them and Uraume goes into a monologue about Hakari and says they need to go all out against him. Not the most direct way of saying Hakari > Maki, but it’s implications

Whether she scales to Low 7-C or not, I don’t think points 3-5 are valid justification. Even points 1 and 2 are shaky as scaling above 8-A’s and getting stronger doesn’t necessarily mean you’re in the next tier, but I’m neutral on those points

I can't deny that I see your points, but I'd still argue for the upgrade.

Specifically, I'm arguing that Maki/Toji would get an upgrade in physical abilities and that wouldn't mean they could absolutely beat Kenjaku, Yuta or Hakari in a no holds barred fight. If this was purely hand-to-hand (taking CE enforcement into account), I'd say it's an even fight and Maki/Toji would probably win. Heck, if I'm feeling particularly wanky, I'd say the same for Gojo and Sukuna. In any other scenario, where all of their techniques and hax abilities are on the table, the chances for Maki and Toji take a noticeable decrease and their plans have to rely on appropriate cursed tools and sneak attacks.

Can't Maki canonically not get stronger due to her body being fully realized?

Before Mai's death it was stated that she couldn't grow, then after it she was "fully realized".

Maki's incapable of growing in strength

It's been a while since I've read that fight/moment; I remember it as she's no longer being held back by that little bit of cursed energy and can still get stronger. It's like she's been stuck wearing vest along w/those ankle and/or wrist weights.

 

[KingTempest]

Can't Maki canonically not get stronger due to her body being fully realized?

Before Mai's death it was stated that she couldn't grow, then after it she was "fully realized".

Maki's incapable of growing in strength

 

[Duedate8898]

It isn't stated that she couldn't get stronger, Mai says as long as she's around Maki can't fully develop. She's stunting her growth but not making it impossible.

And the statement from the manga isn't that she's fully realized, is that a Demonic fighter equal to Toji was fully realized. So it shouldn't cap her, just lets us know she's now on Toji's level.

 

[JnSteHar002]

Hi, anyone still here?

 

[Arkenis]

Yeah. This was basically rejected and a lot of ap scaling will be changing soon

 

[JnSteHar002]

Yeah. This was basically rejected and a lot of ap scaling will be changing soon

Aw man.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Yeah. This was basically rejected and a lot of ap scaling will be changing soon

What was the basis of rejection?

 

[Arkenis]

What was the basis of rejection?

No one understands the core of curse energy like I did for the Zenins