It's Time For 8-C Batman Again

[Armorchompy]

Damian's beaten like, half the Robins in fights. I get that he's a kid but I don't think you should be cutting him out of the scaling without proper research (aka a full downgrade thread/character revision)

 

[M3X_2.0]

Damian's beaten like, half the Robins in fights. I get that he's a kid but I don't think you should be cutting him out of the scaling without proper research (aka a full downgrade thread/character revision)

I’m doing that now as we speak, actually. Have scans for everyone in Batfam and Batman villains.

 

[Elizhaa]

I am fine wiht updating Batman's tier and those who would powerscaled from him to 8-C, based on the calculations that support the tier rating.

 

[M3X_2.0]

These are scans I have for the Batfam members against each other.

Nightwing:

• Fought Batman once, who was clearly holding back and barely attacks him. Nightwing questions if Batman's gonna hit him or not, and when he does, he knocked him down with 3 punches.
• Dominates Damian during their training.
• Beats jason Todd

Damian:

• Batman easily and casually deals with him.

Cass:

• They were both poisoned here and Batman says he doesn't want to hurt her. The fight ends without a clear winner.
• Easily stuns Nightwing with one punch

She has her own feats beating a bunch of dudes who would scale to 8-C and she canonically has super strength. So I'd say she has a better case than everyone here. @LordTracer can speak better about her.

Tim:

• Easily deals with Damian
• A brief fight against Nightwing (Batman atp)

Nightwing and Cass clearly scales but Tim and Damian don't, imo. Also, can we delete Alfred's profile? It's really bad and doesn't really anything. I'll link the sources later.

 

[Tomfer]

She has her own feats beating a bunch of dudes who would scale to 8-C and she canonically has super strength. So I'd say she has a better case than everyone here.

This is fair.

Nightwing and Cass clearly scales but Tim and Damian don't, imo.

With the scans you gave us, that looks good.

Also, can we delete Alfred's profile? It's really bad and doesn't really anything.

"Can train and even spar with Batman, although Batman likely limits himself when training with Alfred"

 

[M3X_2.0]

Characters with line are the ones I don't think should scale to 8-C

Spoiler: characters

• Green Arrow (Post-Crisis)
• Batman (Post-Crisis)
• Bane (Post-Crisis)
• The Joker (Post-Crisis)
• Catwoman (Post-Crisis)
• Red Hood (Post-Crisis)
• Cassandra Cain (Post-Crisis)
• Deadshot (Floyd Lawton)
• Harley Quinn (Post-Crisis)
• Nightwing (Post-Crisis)
• Poison Ivy (Post-Crisis)
• Black Canary (Post-Crisis)
• Killer Croc (Post-Crisis)
• Robin (Damian Wayne)
• Red Robin (Post-Crisis)
• Stephanie Brown (Post-Crisis)
• Barbara Gordon (Post-Crisis)
• Batwoman (Post-Crisis)
• KGBeast (Post-Crisis)
• Lex Luthor (Post-Crisis)
• Captain Boomerang Jr. (Post-Crisis)
• Katana (Post-Crisis)
• The Penguin (Post-Crisis)
• Ra's Al Ghul (Post-Crisis)
• Lady Shiva (Post-Crisis)
• Mr. Freeze (Post-Crisis)
• Anarky (Post-Crisis)
• Scarecrow (Post-Crisis)
• Two-Face (Post-Crisis)
• Batman (One Million)
• Riddler (Post-Crisis)
• Hush (Post-Crisis)
• Onomatopoeia (Post-Crisis)
• Black Mask (Post-Crisis)
• Firefly (Garfield Lynns) (Post-Crisis)
• Killer Moth (Post-Crisis)
• White Canary (very bad profile)
• Crazy Quilt (Post-Crisis)
• Catman (Post-Crisis)
• Question (Renee Montoya) (Post-Crisis)
• Alfred Pennyworth (Post-Crisis)
• Prometheus (Post-Crisis)
• Batman (Thomas Wayne)
• Owlman (Post-Crisis)
• Firestorm (Pre-Crisis)
• Captain Atom (Post-Crisis)
• I, Vampire (Pre-Flashpoint)
• David Cain (Post-Crisis)
• Karate Kid (Earth-Prime) (Armor help...)
• The Question (Vic Sage) (Post-Crisis)

[*]

 

[Qawsedf234]

Characters with line are the ones I don't think should scale to 8-C

Deadshot's Guns are at least 8-C since Batman acknowledges that he can kill him, but avoids it subconsciously.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Deadshot's Guns are at least 8-C since Batman acknowledges that he can kill him, but avoids it subconsciously.

The list is mostly about physicals and physical weapons like a staff for example. Guns are fine. They shouldn’t, the suit tanks it.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Gonna be honest it feels weird not scaling Joker to bats considering the Batman who Laughs business, but I'm not the comics guy and there's sure to be consistent times Batman kinda dogwalked the clown.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Deathstroke_(Post-Crisis)

You forgot Strokedeath BTW, but he's like, weird profile-wise.

 

[Qawsedf234]

You forgot Strokedeath BTW, but he's like, weird profile-wise.

Deathstroke is already 8-C through upscaling. He'd just be higher 8-C now, same with Bane's Venom statistic increase.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Deathstroke is already 8-C through upscaling. He'd just be higher 8-C now, same with Bane's Venom statistic increase.

Is baseline 8-C+ on the table? Only a 1.15 times gap.

 

[KingTempest]

@DaReaperMan Why wouldn't joker scale?

 

[DaReaperMan]

@DaReaperMan Why wouldn't joker scale?

I dunno ask him

Characters with line are the ones I don't think should scale to 8-C

Spoiler: characters

• The Joker (Post-Crisis)

[*]

 

[KingTempest]

...
oh?

 

[DaReaperMan]

...
oh?

Yep. Joker is among those with a line through him, so he's not gonna be scaling

 

[M3X_2.0]

Gonna be honest it feels weird not scaling Joker to bats considering the Batman who Laughs business, but I'm not the comics guy and there's sure to be consistent times Batman kinda dogwalked the clown.

This is Post Crisis only, batman Who Laughs is a Dark Nights thing, 2017. PC ended in 2011. And the reason I personally don't think Joker scales is that Batman is 99% stronger than him most of the times, Joker only harms him with gimmicks and caughting him off guard. In one of their most important stories, Batman beat him while weakened and wounded, KOs him with a punch and more recently, nearly beat him to death. Joker's thing isn't being on the same level physically as Batman, it's his mind games and everything around his gimmicks. Bane is one of the villains that has strength as his gimmick, and actually does break Batman, literally.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Deathstroke_(Post-Crisis) You forgot Strokedeath BTW, but he's like, weird profile-wise.

He's 8-C by upscaling already as others said.

@DaReaperMan Why wouldn't joker scale?

Explained above.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Deadshot's Guns are at least 8-C since Batman acknowledges that he can kill him, but avoids it subconsciously.

I'd say that it depends. Deadshot acknowledges that the Batsuit is bulletproof and can't get pass the suit even at point blan range. And even when he hits, the suit is mostly fine.

 

[Armorchompy]

Damian:

• Batman easily and casually deals with him.

Okay now. Just skimming a respect thread and our other profiles I found way more than that. He's beaten Talia, stomped Zsasz, chopped off a Man-Bat's wings, knocked Tim Drake's lights out, he's matched Connor Hawke (he lost but Hawke struggled and he's one of the strongest street tiers), fought KGBeast, even in the scan you posted he hurts Bruce through the suit hard enough to make him gasp.

EDIT: Went through people who scale to Tim RQ: Hit Stephanie Brown hard enough to make her feel ill, hurt KGBeast, hurt Boomerang Jr. He doesn't have as much because he's Tim Drake and nobody cares about Tim Drake but he still scales lol.

 

[M3X_2.0]

A very good case for 9-B or 9-A, not 8-C.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

A very good case for 9-B or 9-A, not 8-C.

Isn't Bat almost 8-C+?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Also Steph is historically the weakest and least skilled Batgirl IIRC

 

[DaReaperMan]

Isn't Bat almost 8-C+?

This thread is separating Batman's scaling from a lot of people because he holds back a lot against people.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Also Steph is historically the weakest and least skilled Batgirl IIRC

Also just read through Armor’s comment and the only viable scaling there is Connor but that is from PFP and not PC. He gets schooled by Bruce, Dick and Tim which is insane cause Tim is probably one of the weakest as well.

So just to not let them have a gazillion times difference in AP (9-B vs 8-C) I’ll probably calc feats from these characters like Damian and Tim, feats that are clearly in the 9-A range.

 

[M3X_2.0]

This thread is separating Batman's scaling from a lot of people because he holds back a lot against people.

And also because he stomps said people more frequently than not

 

[KingTempest]

Does PFP Batman upscale in strength from PC Batman? Sorry ik it's offtopic but if this changes PC then I wanna know if it affects that scaling too

 

[M3X_2.0]

Does PFP Batman upscale in strength from PC Batman? Sorry ik it's offtopic but if this changes PC then I wanna know if it affects that scaling too

I still gotta read further into PFP but IIRC Batman became one with all his versions.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I still gotta read further into PFP but IIRC Batman became one with all his versions.

His profile currently has this scan of Superman comparing him to his Post-Crisis self.

 

[Armorchompy]

Also just read through Armor’s comment and the only viable scaling there is Connor but that is from PFP and not PC.

How is the Zsasz and Man-Bat stuff not scaling? Unless you're saying they're not 8-C which I can see for Zsasz just cause I don't know him but Man-Bat definitely is.

 

[Planck69]

Agree with the upgrade. I'll wait on others more knowledgeable than me to sort out the actual scaling.

 

[M3X_2.0]

How is the Zsasz and Man-Bat stuff not scaling? Unless you're saying they're not 8-C which I can see for Zsasz just cause I don't know him but Man-Bat definitely is.

The only Man-Bat that would consistently go against Batman and actually surpass him in strength was Kirk Langstrom, regular Man-Bat are fodder and easily defeated by Batman even if there are dozens of them. First few pages of Batman (1940) #656 Batman took 6 Man-Bats at once and was hit once, and later he fights dozens of them, and only gets overwhelmed because of the amount of Man-Bats holding and attacking him.

 

[Armorchompy]

The only Man-Bat that would consistently go against Batman and actually surpass him in strength was Kirk Langstrom, regular Man-Bat are fodder and easily defeated by Batman even if there are dozens of them. First few pages of Batman (1940) #656 Batman took 6 Man-Bats at once and was hit once, and later he fights dozens of them, and only gets overwhelmed because of the amount of Man-Bats holding and attacking him.

yo what the hell is issue 663, i went back to check if there was context and uh, it's quite bizarre

Fair enough. Though even if they can only threaten him in groups that would be a downscale.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I was reading through some of the characters I think shouldn't be 8-C and oh my God. They have NOTHING. You'd think they have some wall busting feats or anything but no, only Cassandra has those and she is blatantly a super-human, like, canonically.

 

[ManhwaGrace]

Wait, I think I cooked up a way to get the feat higher, I was talking with my friend on discord and he said this:

I dunno the calculations fine, but if he angsized it and used pythag it'd get the value higher cause scaling a line like that doesn't get you good numbers. It's not even wank cause it's just another method.

I think we can get 8-B batman...

 

[ManhwaGrace]

Oh and for the second feat where he tanks it, my friend said:

That's the best part of the calculation, but if you wanna wank (not really) you should minus the diameter of a steel drum because he scaled to the front of it, you'd probably get like 8-B

 

[DaReaperMan]

8-B would 100% be an outlier for batbaby...

 

[ManhwaGrace]

Aw man, it was worth a try.

 

[Random-Helper323]

OP looks okay.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Oh and for the second feat where he tanks it, my friend said:

Tell your friend the explosion is only High 8-C and it is impossible for Batman to tank more than that value.

And tell him I don’t want to get any value higher, I don’t want to wank anything. The calc will stay as it is now.

 

[Dalesean027]

Bump

 

[M3X_2.0]

I was reading through some of the characters I think shouldn't be 8-C and oh my God. They have NOTHING. You'd think they have some wall busting feats or anything but no, only Cassandra has those and she is blatantly a super-human, like, canonically.

Gotta find something for those who don't scale.