Itachi Uchiha vs Sesshōmaru

[RavenSupreme]

I see. Has Sessho resisted Genjutsu on that level. That is kinda what Raven's vote hinges on iirc. If so, all the FRA will be counted.

See my post above. I hope I explained the logic behind good enough.

 

[HST_Master]

didnt Kakashi resist Kabuto's genjutsu??? Itachi trapped Kakashi in genjutsus for days

he didn't, Gai,Sakura and herself all dispelled it before it could take effect

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Naraku has at least an equally potent Mindtwist - Illusions which affect the Mind, the body and the soul at the same time from the same attack. Whereas Itachis only target the Mind and Body.

Irrelevent. The body and soul are not important, the mind his. Your logic is that Sessho resist soul manipulation, so a better mindhax will be inefective.

Kagome has resisted that form of mind-twist. Mind. Body. Soul. This was Chapter ~50 and first form Naraku. Naraku has in total 6 different forms.

Affecting the soul is not, in any way, mind hax, and it doesn't matter here. Mind hax only matters here, and he astonishingly lacks the feats.

Later forms of Naraku managed to mindtwist Kagome. Later Naraku forms also managed to mindtwist Inuyasha, who developed a resistance to it.

That is not impressive in the least compared to what Itachi scales from.

The final fight against EOS Naraku (5th to 6th form) took partially part INSIDE of Naraku. Where the corrupted Shikon Jewel automatically causes mindtwist and mindposession - sucessfully working on Inuyasha, who previously resisted Mindtwist from Naraku, who previously sucessfully managed to mindtwist Kagome, who previously resisted the Chapter 50 Mindtwist (mind, body soul).

Again, that still lacks the feats.

Sesshoumaru, being with Inuyasha was not affected by the Shikon Jewels autonoumus mindtwist and posession, as such the argument he has resistance to at least that level.

No. Fodderizing mind hax in the hundreds=/= affecting someone who resist a mindhax that affects a few people.

 

[Rocker1189]

My argument always has been pretty much the following:
Naraku has at least an equally potent Mindtwist - Illusions which affect the Mind, the body and the soul at the same time from the same attack. Whereas Itachis only target the Mind and Body.

Kagome has resisted that form of mind-twist. Mind. Body. Soul. This was Chapter ~50 and first form Naraku. Naraku has in total 6 different forms.

Later forms of Naraku managed to mindtwist Kagome. Later Naraku forms also managed to mindtwist Inuyasha, who developed a resistance to it.

The final fight against EOS Naraku (5th to 6th form) took partially part INSIDE of Naraku. Where the corrupted Shikon Jewel automatically causes mindtwist and mindposession - sucessfully working on Inuyasha, who previously resisted Mindtwist from Naraku, who previously sucessfully managed to mindtwist Kagome, who previously resisted the Chapter 50 Mindtwist (mind, body soul).

Sesshoumaru, being with Inuyasha was not affected by the Shikon Jewels autonoumus mindtwist and posession, as such the argument he has resistance to at least that level.

None of which has affected the same number of people as Niirvana which is faar below the level of Itachi.

This is what I said, that illusion technique that Naraku has is a technique with soul manipulation on top of it. Let us says that Sesshomura did escape it. That means he resisted mind hax that affects a couple of people at once and he also has soul resistance. The fact that the mind hax comes with soul resistance does not make it any better than mind hax that can trap you in your own mind and condense time at the user's discretion.

Secondly Sesshomura seems to smell his way through the illusions making think that the illusions do not control your 5 senses the same way genjutsu does. Meaning on the mind level it is on a lower leel than genjutsu. He could tell what was real and what was not because it did not have a smell.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

ke, litiraly, by your logic frisk resisting asgore's fire means that he can resist a fire hundreds of times hotter than anything they ever interacted with because asgore's flames hurt the soul too

 

[Rocker1189]

thats kinda death manipulation because he can make her die in her head and die in reality and it kinda ignore durability when you think about it lo wonder why this hasnt been added to his profile

Imagine we put it on the profile, people would cry so hard I can not be bothered lmao.

 

[RavenSupreme]

You are of a complete different believe and I dont think we will agree on that matter. I think we argue and debate to convince the people who are maybe not that well versed with the series and cast their votes given the made arguments. So I dont think this endless back and forth is really doing us any good.

I accept your opinion on the matter. Thats all I can say after 2 days of constant debating, But i disagree with it. No hard feelings.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

You are of a complete different believe and I dont think we will agree on that matter. I think we argue and debate to convince the people who are maybe not that well versed with the series and cast their votes given the made arguments. So I dont think this endless back and forth is really doing us any good.
I accept your opinion on the matter. Thats all I can say after 2 days of constant debating, But i disagree with it. No hard feelings.

But try to give a reason why then. Explain how does affecting the soul correlate to stronger mindhax? The two are completly different abilities, and you might disagree, but the wiki goes by certain standards, and mind-hax is counted by numbers.

 

[Rocker1189]

You are of a complete different believe and I dont think we will agree on that matter. I think we argue and debate to convince the people who are maybe not that well versed with the series and cast their votes given the made arguments. So I dont think this endless back and forth is really doing us any good.
I accept your opinion on the matter. Thats all I can say after 2 days of constant debating, But i disagree with it. No hard feelings.

Idm disagreements but it is up to us to convince the OP and it is also how the wiki has been doing these fights. If it randomly changed now that would be weird.

 

[Rocker1189]

ke, litiraly, by your logic frisk resisting asgore's fire means that he can resist a fire hundreds of times hotter than anything they ever interacted with because asgore's flames hurt the soul too

Good analogy.

 

[HST_Master]

Again Kakashi and co. didn't resist this, they dispelled it before it could take effect

Resisting would be that it already took effect and they were no selling it.

 

[AstralKing7]

didnt Kakashi resist Kabuto's genjutsu??? Itachi trapped Kakashi in genjutsus for days

he didn't, Gai,Sakura and herself all dispelled it before it could take effect

If they dispelledi it that means she is resistant lol Kakashi even said he was right to have taught her how genjutsu before the exams. That means Kakashi himself dispelled the genjutsu if Sakura wasnt effected by it.

 

[RavenSupreme]

I have explained my reasoning for an extended period of time. I am not mad, angry or whatever at how you view these things. The only thing which I will add as a last thing is that the supposed "standard" for how to treat and scale mindhax as a whole is something which needs to be reworked. Another user linked a discussion regarding the topic and I will create a revision thread for it. The discussion was also inconclusive from what I recall, which also is what I got from the rules:

Generally speaking, we judge the potency of Mind Manipulation both by what it can do and by how many people its user can affect at once with it. This may range from only a few people at a time to entire planetary populations.

Both being the important word.

Its not exclusive the quantity which is the deciding factor.

 

[Rocker1189]

Again Kakashi and co. didn't resist this, they dispelled it before it could take effect

Resisting would be that it already took effect and they were no selling it.

That is not our point anymore, we are talking about whether the level of resistance surpasses even Nirvana and whether Sesshomura resisted it in the first place.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Again Kakashi and co. didn't resist this, they dispelled it before it could take effect
Resisting would be that it already took effect and they were no selling it.

And that matters how..? Tsukoyomi still fodderizes it, as its completly impossible to dispell while this was dispelled by a geni

 

[Lightbuster30]

Sesshomaru fra.

 

[Rocker1189]

I have explained my reasoning for an extended period of time. I am not mad, angry or whatever at how you view these things. The only thing which I will add as a last thing is that the supposed "standard" for how to treat and scale mindhax as a whole is something which needs to be reworked. Another user linked a discussion regarding the topic and I will create a revision thread for it. The discussion was also inconclusive from what I recall, which also is what I got from the rules:
Generally speaking, we judge the potency of Mind Manipulation both by what it can do and by how many people its user can affect at once with it. This may range from only a few people at a time to entire planetary populations.

Both being the important word.

Its not exclusive the quantity which is the deciding factor.

It is not exclusive but it is generally the main factor and that was so called inconclusive because it chanaged nothing the standard remained the same. Also if you want to argue it you would have to make the thread now not after wards.

No one said you are mad.

Also again the soul aspect is just another part of it, and does not add to mind resistance that is soul resistance. And again you have not proved that Sesshomura actually resisted it it just looks like he breaks the illusions because he knows they are not real.

 

[AstralKing7]

wtf lmfao the fact that they dispelled it means they resisted it. THats how it works, Naruto almost dispelled Itachi's finger genjutsu but failed because he didnt have perfect control over his chakra

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Generally speaking, we judge the potency of Mind Manipulation both by what it can do and by how many people its user can affect at once with it. This may range from only a few people at a time to entire planetary populations.

Yes, however the point is the fact that effecting the soul is Soul Manipulation, not Mind Manipulation. If said ability attacks the mind and soul, then it is both powers. This does not strengthen one or the other. It never has.

 

[HST_Master]

@Astral

No...no it doesn't

Kakashi and co. were able to dispel it BEFORE it takes effect not DURING

@Ricsi

Because Tsukuyomi is being scaled from this when this didn't even have a chance to work in the 1st place

To put it simply

Nirvana = Didn't hit

Tsukuyomi = Hit

it would be completely different if Kakashi got trapped under Nirvana and was resisting it.

 

[Rocker1189]

@Astral
No...no it doesn't

Kakashi and co. were able to dispel it BEFORE it takes effect not DURING

@Ricsi

Because Tsukuyomi is being scaled from this when this didn't even have a chance to work in the 1st place

To put it simply

Nirvana = Didn't hit

Tsukuyomi = Hit

it would be completely different if Kakashi got trapped under Nirvana and was resisting it.

Nirvana did hit if not they would not see the feathers. The feathers are not real. If it did not hit they would not hae seen the feathers. And anyway Naraku's mind hax has not affected even 1/10 of the people that Nirvana has.

 

[AstralKing7]

do you not see the people asleep?? The fact that they are asleep means it already took effect but they resisted it by releasing the genjutsu.

That logic your using is like saying that Itachi's genjutsu didnt work on killer bee because Gyuki dispelled it lol.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Because Tsukuyomi is being scaled from this when this didn't even have a chance to work in the 1st place

To put it simply

Nirvana = Didn't hit

Tsukuyomi = Hit

it would be completely different if Kakashi got trapped under Nirvana and was resisting it.

What are you talking about? Mirvana did work on dozens to houndreds, the fact that genin could break it doesn't mean it cannot affect that amount of people. That's like saying the IT is not planetary because it was blocked by Sasuke..

No, kakashi's resistance has nothing to do with any of this. Tsuku is plain out stated to be stronger than this genjutsu. Kakashi doesn't even matter

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

My god. The reasoning above is litiraly that resistence to soul manipulation allows him to resist a much better mindhax. If this ever gets added I'll just ask it to be removed, as the wiki's standards of mindhax go litiraly against that

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I am closing this until Raven make that thread. Because this is getting ridiculous. I never expected a Naruto vs Inuyasha match to have this issue.