Issue with qualitative superiority in God of War (downgrade)

[Donatien]

PoH Kratos and ascended Athena are currently placed at Low 1-C due to these pieces of evidence. However, looking at the thread that this upgrade was based on, this is extremely flawed and is based on a terrible understanding of what qualitative superiority is. These pieces of evidence were groundlessly interpreted as indicating qualitative superiority when they did no such thing Qualitative superiority specifically refers to superiority that is "on a higher tier of infinity" or "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size" as opposed to "being 2 times, 100 times or even infinite times more powerful or greater". Or, in short, uncountably infinite superiority. However, these clips merely present Athena as being brought to "a higher existence," "[ascending] to a higher realm/plane" with "more power," and "going to a place that is higher than everybody else."

None of this indicates uncountably infinite superiority whatsoever. All it does is describe her power as being "higher" or "more" to some unspecified extent. Due to Occam's Razor, it is absolutely ridiculous to simply assume that these statements of "higher" power, existence, and planes specifically refer to uncountably infinite superiority as those who upgraded these characters to Low 1-C did. The people backing the upgrade in the thread even insisted that these clips indicated dimensional superiority despite there being absolutely nothing in these clips that mention dimensionality at all. Due to this, PoH Kratos and ascended Athena's Low 1-C ratings should be removed, with them going back down to their old 2-C ratings.

 

[KLOL506]

@Planck69 @Theglassman12 @GilverTheProtoAngelo @Tanin_iver

Also this thread should be moved to Staff-Only, given just how much chaos it caused last time around.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

VsWiki standards don't dictate how fiction works. Qualitative superiority or uncomfortable infinite are not words used by fiction, especially a verse like GoW which isn't about mathematical powerscaling mumbo jumbo. Conch of Heimdal is as ******** as it gets.

As long as you have extra dimensions and power associated with it. It's enough for low1C.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

It's not just the gameplay shit tho, it's the interviews as well.

Any chance a summary would be given? Maybe the keywords as I can't see the videos? Like do they say athena is infinitely beyond what she was?

 

[KLOL506]

Any chance a summary would be given? Maybe the keywords as I can't see the videos?

The video links are in the original upgrade thread, they're at best a 1-2 minute watch.



36s to 2m

Like do they say athena is infinitely beyond what she was?

Again, why are we hyperfixating on the word "Infinitely" here?

@Emirp sumitpo @Just_a_Random_Butler @Elizhaa @Maverick_Zero_X Your opinions regarding this and Gilver's comment would be appreciated as well.

because it is

the whole HDE, Qualitative superiority, R>F difference, it's all made by us, and only for us (the battleboardian)

The funny thing is a lot of the other verses that have Tier 1 don't even use terms like this (KH and Bayo are a different case but even then they don't use the terms "qualitative superiority" or "each dimension being a level of infinite qualitative superiority higher than the last" because let's be ******* honest, it's dumb).

Not to be doing whataboutism here or saying those verses don't have a problem, but that is what battleboarding brainrot gets you.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Essentially, what I had previously expressed in the thread went unnoticed by most people. I'm grateful that someone finally understood my point of view. If you agree with me, I'm prepared to debate with the OP, even if it's limited to staff members only. Therefore, if you don't mind, I kindly request permission to speak if the conversation is moved to staff-only setting.

It's only fair that, just as the supporters of the verse were mentioned, the opponents should also have a chance to voice their opinions.

I hope that this time around, nobody becomes passive-aggressive or toxic like last time. It was challenging to communicate, and I recall that there were even some RvR reports of a back-and-forth between supporters and opponents (if I am not wrong)

 

[Georredannea15]

Nothing has changed for the likes of Athena. Wiki still doesn't recognise phrases like "higher plane" or "higher existence" as "high-dimensional existence" without the necessary context, statement and feats because the authors may have used the phrase figurativel.

as in Bleach, but you can qualify it with context and achievement, it will be "higher dimensional existence for realm and Athena, and we have plenty of those.

We have already combined these contexts, feats and statements with GoW's own UES to get Tier 1 and HDE.

And... GoW does not use any R>F.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Georr, I would appreciate it if we could engage in a respectful discussion and refrain from using arguments made by other staff members to support our own points. It is important to independently present and defend our own perspectives, as I am not here to counter someone else's argument in their absence.

Furthermore, you have restated my previous statement accurately. That the statement (from bleach/and character) was not an exaggeration as you claimed; rather, it was simply your viewpoint that only took account from the perspective of HDE. In that particular context, the statement holds validity of what it wanted to mean.

Let us move away from discussing Bleach for now, as it is not the focus of our conversation. My intention was simply to highlight certain flaws in the argument, as you mentioned that the context may be applicable to HDE, which, in my opinion, is fundamentally incorrect.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I watched the clips but there is nothing to really show the increase in power wasn't just a numerical amount or like a lot. What does being a higher existence entail? Is everyone completely fodder to her or did she just class up and vastly outstrips everyone while still very much existing in a similar way to what she did before.

 

[KLOL506]

Georr, I would appreciate it if we could engage in a respectful discussion and refrain from using arguments made by other staff members to support our own points. It is important to independently present and defend our own perspectives, as I am not here to counter someone else's argument in their absence.

There is nothing wrong with using other staff member's arguments to support your own points. Sometimes they just get the point across clearer than some, sometimes they don't. We don't have to scramble around finding every bit of data and then copypaste mindlessly.

 

[KLOL506]

I watched the clips but there is nothing to really show the increase in power wasn't just a numerical amount or like a lot. What does being a higher existence entail? Is everyone completely fodder to her or did she just class up and vastly outstrips everyone while still very much existing in a similar way to what she did before.

Athena literally states she is no longer existing the same way she did when Kratos asks that she still appears to be Olympian, Athena promptly stating in response that appearances can be deceiving.

Cory doubles down on this notion hard, stating her to become selfless when she died.

 

[Georredannea15]

Georr, I would appreciate it if we could engage in a respectful discussion and refrain from using arguments made by other staff members to support our own points. It is important to independently present and defend our own perspectives, as I am not here to counter someone else's argument in their absence.

Furthermore, you have restated my previous statement accurately. That the statement (from bleach/and character) was not an exaggeration as you claimed; rather, it was simply your viewpoint that only took account from the perspective of HDE. In that particular context, the statement holds validity of what it wanted to mean.

Let us move away from discussing Bleach for now, as it is not the focus of our conversation. My intention was simply to highlight certain flaws in the argument, as you mentioned that the context may be applicable to HDE, which, in my opinion, is fundamentally incorrect.

Of course, and what I mean is that what will be discussed here is HDE only, not tiers. They maintain their tiers because their power basically comes from the higher dimensional existence.

 

[KLOL506]

Athena literally states she is no longer existing the same way she did when Kratos asks that she still appears to be Olympian, Athena promptly stating in response that appearances can be deceiving.

Cory doubles down on this notion hard, stating her to become selfless when she died.

Not to mention all the sensing shenanigans we discussed ad nauseam in the previous thread.

 

[Georredannea15]

Athena literally states she is no longer existing the same way she did when Kratos asks that she still appears to be Olympian, Athena promptly stating in response that appearances can be deceiving.

Cory doubles down on this notion hard, stating her to become selfless when she died.

In fact, that no one can interact and no one perceives it is a support for this. This is because of the power from higher existence and after Athena's ascension to higher existence, she equated her dimensional existence with higher existence and she is a being that transcends the lower worlds like higher dimensional existence.

 

[Planck69]

Gilver has already made my stance on this clear. Its an an argument based entirely on the semantics of the phrase and not the context surrounding it, and nothing that wasn't already brought up in the initial downgrade. Disagree of course.

 

[KLOL506]

In fact, that no one can interact and no one perceives it is a support for this. This is because of the power from higher existence and after Athena's ascension to higher existence, she equated her dimensional existence with higher existence and she is a being that transcends the lower worlds like higher dimensional existence.

This too. The same Kratos who could interact with 4D Primordial Abstracts, can't do shit with Athena without the Power of Hope.

 

[ImmortalDread]

There is nothing wrong with using other staff member's arguments to support your own points. Sometimes they just get the point across clearer than some, sometimes they don't. We don't have to scramble around finding every bit of data and then copypaste mindlessly.

From my perspective, I find it incorrect to be obligated to refute someone else's argument. It is not my responsibility to engage in such a task. Additionally, Georr has a habit of taking other people's arguments and presenting them as absolute and indisputable statements, which is an unhealthy approach to sustaining a discussion.

Furthermore, if Georr were simply providing links to people's arguments, I wouldn't mind. However, he tends to interpret those arguments based on his own understanding, which can be tiresome to discuss.

Please understand that I am not here with the intention of refuting anyone's argument.

 

[Planck69]

Aite fam now make the thread staff-only and give Georr and Dread their one shot.

Is it that necessary?

 

[KLOL506]

From my perspective, I find it incorrect to be obligated to refute someone else's argument. It is not my responsibility to engage in such a task. Additionally, Georr has a habit of taking other people's arguments and presenting them as absolute and indisputable statements, which is an unhealthy approach to sustaining a discussion.

I mean, I'm trying my damned hardest to keep Ygg out of Tier 1 because Ultima and DT said so, but I wouldn't be doing that if I didn't trust their judgment.

Furthermore, if Georr were simply providing links to people's arguments, I wouldn't mind. However, he tends to interpret those arguments based on his own understanding, which can be tiresome to discuss.

Understandable.

Please understand that I am not here with the intention of refuting anyone's argument.

I can respect that. That is the norm of most threads where staff honestly don't have to go refuting other people's arguments.

 

[Georredannea15]

From my perspective, I find it incorrect to be obligated to refute someone else's argument. It is not my responsibility to engage in such a task. Additionally, Georr has a habit of taking other people's arguments and presenting them as absolute and indisputable statements, which is an unhealthy approach to sustaining a discussion.

Furthermore, if Georr were simply providing links to people's arguments, I wouldn't mind. However, he tends to interpret those arguments based on his own understanding, which can be tiresome to discuss.

Please understand that I am not here with the intention of refuting anyone's argument.

But everyone uses a counter-argument of rebuttal to the argument presented. That's the purpose anyway. This is my last post until any staff come.

 

[KLOL506]

Is it that necessary?

Given what happened last time, I don't wanna take any chances.

 

[KLOL506]

But everyone uses a counter-argument of rebuttal to the argument presented. That's the purpose anyway. This is my last post until any staff come.

Next time, just link the arguments and be on your merry way.

Or you can ask me personally and I will try asking them what exactly they meant. I am always available for that.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Athena literally states she is no longer existing the same way she did when Kratos asks that she still appears to be Olympian, Athena promptly stating in response that appearances can be deceiving.

Cory doubles down on this notion hard, stating her to become selfless when she died.

How does existing in another way give her infinitely more power? That's what the op disagrees with if I understood it correctly. Also the selfless part to me in the video seemed to refer to athena trying to save zeus while she was a god which is something gods don't do because they are egotistical. However athena gaining more power leads to her becoming just another evil bastard so she became the same as a god even though she surpasses them in power. Did i misunderstand the video somehow?

 

[KLOL506]

How does existing in another way give her infinitely more power?

Higher power statements, duh.

That's what the op disagrees with if I understood it correctly.

Which honestly sounds like borderline semantics now.

Also the selfless part to me in the video seemed to refer to athena trying to save zeus while she was a god which is something gods don't do because they are egotistical.

And it has massive consequences for her state of being too.

However athena gaining more power leads to her becoming just another evil bastard so she became the same as a god even though she surpasses them in power.

Yeah and? That's not where this stops tho, as every other part we've elaborated upon from Kratos being unable to sense or even interact with her despite his powers and skills, to Athena literally herself saying she ain't the same physiology-wise.

Did i misunderstand the video somehow?

Well, you did ignore a lot of the underlying context surrounding these events.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Higher power statements, duh.


Which honestly sounds like borderline semantics now.


And it has massive consequences for her state of being too.


Yeah and? That's not where this stops tho, as every other part we've elaborated upon from Kratos being unable to sense or even interact with her despite his powers and skills, to Athena literally herself saying she ain't the same physiology-wise.


Well, you did ignore a lot of the underlying context surrounding these events.

Okay i guess this thread will go to staff only. if not I will wait for the arguments of other people. As it is I can agree to either way.

 

[KLOL506]

Anyway, count me in for disagreeing to OP due to the reasonings I, Planck, Gilver and Georr gave.

Moving on.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I will address Gilver's points unless this will turn to a staff-only, I may require a permission.

 

[Georredannea15]

In fact, these were asked of Tier 1 experts before ascending to Athena and higher existence 5-D, and ascended accordingly.

I can more or less predict what will happen again from something that has already been discussed.

Anyway, I agree with Gilver, KLOL and Planck and disagree with the OP

 

[ImmortalDread]

I don't think both of them presented any counter-arguments to OP, they simply agreed with Gilver, or did I miss anything?

 

[KLOL506]

I don't think both of them presented any counter-arguments to OP, they simply agreed with Gilver, or did I miss anything?

Uhhhh... did you literally just ignore everything Georre and I just said about the whole sensing and interactibility gimmick and the context stuff that Planck also talked about?

 

[Georredannea15]

I don't think both of them presented any counter-arguments to OP, they simply agreed with Gilver, or did I miss anything?

I think Planck expresses his disagreement for GoW as these are topics that have been extensively discussed before and are accepted by tier 1 experts. Apart from that, KLOL and I explained the nature of higher existence with Athena, and Gilver explained some of the requirements and contexts.

And as I said, the only thing to discuss here is HDE, not tier.(According the new standarts)

 

[KLOL506]

Basically, Gilver and Planck's counterargument is that OP is hyperfixating on the semantics of the phrase and not on the context behind it. To which I and Georr further explained what the context actually entails.

 

[KLOL506]

@Emirp sumitpo @Planck69 @Theglassman12 Would either of you be able to shift the thread to Staff-Only and give Georr, Dread, Tanin and Gilver one-time commenting permissions?

 

[Georredannea15]

Basically for a phrase to be considered "figurative", there must be a contradiction within the verse against that phrase.

And it is not found in GoW.

Other than that, for statements like higher existence to be considered "higher dimensional existence" it takes a few contexts and feats.

Athena has so many contexts and feats in the verse and there are statements that Cory supports all of them.( Already KLOL and I have explained this above.)

 

[KLOL506]

Basically for a phrase to be considered "figurative", there must be a contradiction within the verse against that phrase.

And it is not found in GoW.

Not even what's being argued anymore. Just clarifying that.

 

[Planck69]

Shifting this to Staff-Only I suppose.

@ImmortalDread @Georredannea15 @GilverTheProtoAngelo @Tanin_iver

I've given you all permission to make one concise post with your views.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Shifting this to Staff-Only I suppose.

@ImmortalDread @Georredannea15 @GilverTheProtoAngelo @Tanin_iver

I've given you all permission to make one concise post with your views.

Thank you for granting me permission. It appears that I will no longer have the opportunity to respond to any further comments. Therefore, please disregard any subsequent remarks as I intend to provide a detailed and concise analysis.

Arguments against Low 1-C and HDE​

---

First and foremost, I will now proceed to examine each piece of evidence that is being utilized to support the justification.

The primary evidence in question is the central statement within the verse, which is derived directly from the canon itself and not from the author or any interviews. Hence, it holds the significance of serving as the foremost substantiating factor.

My sacrifice to save Zeus has brought me to a higher existence - 0:21 in this video

Second statement being used for the justification is: (from author's interpretation)

she was the one Greek God who did something selfless, she sacrificed herself to protect Zeus and that actually allowed her to ascend to higher realm, and she ended up realising: oh look there is more power up here, so its sort of corrupts her a little - 0:47 in this video

The third link leads to the same content but from a different timeframe.

Based on my initial analysis of the video, which is currently 2 minutes and 41 seconds long, it seems that a comprehensive understanding or interpretation does not necessarily require an extensive amount of knowledge or context. However, if additional context is deemed necessary, it is the responsibility of the supporter to provide it as a means of justifying their statements. Therefore, when we commonly assert that "context is needed," it does not necessarily imply that a statement should be understood solely within the framework of an interview or author's statements, separate from the video clip itself.

The video begins with Kratos making a statement indicating that he and Zeus are not yet finished. This suggests that there may have been a previous conflict or battle between them, and Kratos, in his own way, refuses to acknowledge his defeat. Furthermore, his mention of "The Gates of Hades have never held me" reinforces this interpretation, serving as an expression indicating that he has never been overcome by significant challenges or adversities. It conveys a sense of resilience, strength, and the ability to surmount obstacles.

For those who may not be familiar with the concept, in Greek mythology, the Gates of Hades, also known as the Gates of the Underworld, symbolize the entrance to the realm of the dead ruled by the god Hades.

Subsequently, Athena enters the scene and utters the statement, "Death cannot hold those with purpose, Kratos." This remark suggests that individuals, like Kratos in this instance, who possess a strong sense of purpose or a profound drive in their lives, are not easily defeated by death or the powers of Hades. It implies that individuals driven by a higher cause or those who possess a clear mission or goal in life are capable of transcending the limitations of mortality.

It is important to note that the intent of this interpretation is not to argue that Kratos is immortal (he is proven to be one, later on), as that is not the focus. Rather, it is to underscore the idea that individuals who are motivated by their goals, values, or ideals have the capacity to achieve remarkable feats and leave a lasting impact on the world, even in the face of mortality.

Kratos expresses curiosity regarding Athena's appearance, while she seems to have missed him. Although this exchange of conversation occurs, let us not dwell on it, as it is a minor aspect of the overall context.

Subsequently, she articulates the following proposition:

My sacrifice to save Zeus has brought me to a higher existence

This aspect holds utmost significance, yet it seems to be largely overlooked. In examining the initial response provided by Kratos, it becomes apparent that...

You still appear to be an Olympian

This statement does not align with the concept of higher-dimensional existence (HDE) in mathematics, nor does it correspond to a contextual representation of a low 1-C statement. To be frank, it can be considered an anti-feat. Kratos made this statement in response to the notion of a "higher existence" being mentioned, and it is evident that the appearance of this entity has changed. It is important to note that the term "higher existence" does not imply the ability to universally influence, create, or destroy spatial entities of magnitudes that surpass those of a space-time continuum by one to two levels of infinity.

In fact, if one were to argue that this statement is an example of an HDE statement, it raises the question of why Kratos initially responded by referring to the woman's appearance. This contextual inconsistency is quite perplexing.

It is possible that my perspective is incorrect due to a lack of familiarity with the verse. To address this, let us examine the next statement that provides evidence supporting the idea that this “higher existence” was indeed referring to physical appearance:

Appearances can be deceiving, Kratos

Subsequently, the ensuing conversation revolves around their previous disputes. However, a noteworthy aspect emerges, wherein her selfless act yields a distinct advantage:

I see truths where I did not before.

Following a discussion, she acquired the blades of exile from Kratos' body, which had previously sustained damage.

Subsequently, she departed and vanished. Eventually, the gameplay became visible.

Now, let us delve into the topic of scaling and powerscaling in this video. The concept of a higher existence encompasses her manifestation, which aligns with Kratos' assertions. Through her sacrificial act, she possesses the ability to perceive truths and traverse the physical vessels of individuals in order to seize them. However, these factors hold no relevance in the context of low 1-C scaling.

Considering the broader context, it is difficult to perceive how any of this suggests low 1-C or HDE (the current HDE necessitates more comprehensive mathematical and dimensional explanations). Rather, these aspects predominantly pertain to spiritual realms.

Author's interpretation​

---

Now, I will proceed to the second video in which the author provides an explanation. The author focuses on emphasizing the significance of Athena's character art and the importance of paying attention to its intricate details. Let us now examine how this understanding contributes to justifying Athena's placement at the low 1-C level.

The author initially highlights the importance of Athena's character art and subsequently presents a justification for her ascension to a higher realm through a significant sacrifice.

To clarify, the primary evidence presented employs the term "existence," which the author interprets as "realm." Furthermore, the author uses the term "plane" and also describes the act of "going to a place that is higher than anyone else." After analyzing the author's arguments, it is apparent that these terms are meant to refer to a place, realm, or plane of existence, rather than a mere state of being. Therefore, the consideration of additional dimensions or axes, as suggested by the concept of HDE, is unwarranted in this context.

The situation is analogous to Mori's case, where he also ascends to a higher plane. While some argue that a comparison between the two cases may be unfair, citing the need for more context, I will reserve judgment until such context is presented.

Upon watching the entire video, the author confirms the notion I previously mentioned, namely, the corruption being a significant aspect. It is important to emphasize that the higher power that many individuals equate with a “higher existence” is fundamentally incorrect. Instead, the term “higher power” simply implies that one gains power upon entering this higher realm.

This is a crucial point because it necessitates defining the nature and capabilities of this higher power. Thus far, I have not encountered any instances where this power universally affects or destroys objects that possess spatial dimensions corresponding to one to two levels of infinity greater than a space-time continuum.

If such instances exist, I request that you kindly bring them to my attention. As of now, the assertion that this higher realm and power are synonymous is entirely false.

In fact, within the narrative and contextual context, these terms are used distinctively. While ascending to a higher realm grants an individual higher power, it does not indicate the extent or potency of that power. The videos I have observed thus far do not provide a definitive definition for this power, and I remain skeptical that one exists.

Conclusion​

---

The following points outline the key concepts discussed:

• The term “higher existence” pertains to a superior plane, realm, or place, and does not imply a higher power.
• In this particular context, “higher power” signifies the attainment of an elevated plane, which may or may not involve extra-dimensionality or physicality.
• There is no evidence supporting the notion of higher dimensionality or qualitative superiority.
• The concept of Higher Dimensional Existence does not apply to these instances and justification.
• The idea that appearance is corrupted after comprehending the author's explanation is also expressed.

It is possible to achieve qualitative superiority through the acquisition of higher power, which encompasses various forms of transcendence. However, without proper context or evidence showcasing the capabilities of this power, it cannot be incorporated into our tiering system. As no feats or scenes demonstrating such powers have been observed.

Assuming the interpretation of higher planes in the same manner as in Mori's case is not an entirely incorrect proposition. However, it is important to distinguish this particular situation from the fact that it involves a low 1-C classification, based solely on the usage of the term “higher power” being equated with a “higher plane." This misconception arises from the assumption that the term “higher plane” carries a mathematical connotation, which is fundamentally flawed (as I have previously stated). It should be noted that none of the evidence presented provides any mathematical references or contexts and purely based on mythological and theological context.

To summarize, there is a lack of evidence, including any notable accomplishments, to support the existence of an additional spatial dimensionality. This lack of evidence extends to any consideration of a low 1-C rating or any plausible rating. Furthermore, it is important to highlight that the term "higher place" is used within a theological framework rather than a mathematical one, as it does not find application in any other context.

 

[Georredannea15]

Thank you for granting me permission. It appears that I will no longer have the opportunity to respond to any further comments. Therefore, please disregard any subsequent remarks as I intend to provide a detailed and concise analysis.

First and foremost, I will now proceed to examine each piece of evidence that is being utilized to support the justification.

The primary evidence in question is the central statement within the verse, which is derived directly from the canon itself and not from the author or any interviews. Hence, it holds the significance of serving as the foremost substantiating factor.

Second statement being used for the justification is: (from author's interpretation)

The third link leads to the same content but from a different timeframe.

Based on my initial analysis of the video, which is currently 2 minutes and 41 seconds long, it seems that a comprehensive understanding or interpretation does not necessarily require an extensive amount of knowledge or context. However, if additional context is deemed necessary, it is the responsibility of the supporter to provide it as a means of justifying their statements. Therefore, when we commonly assert that "context is needed," it does not necessarily imply that a statement should be understood solely within the framework of an interview or author's statements, separate from the video clip itself.

The video begins with Kratos making a statement indicating that he and Zeus are not yet finished. This suggests that there may have been a previous conflict or battle between them, and Kratos, in his own way, refuses to acknowledge his defeat. Furthermore, his mention of "The Gates of Hades have never held me" reinforces this interpretation, serving as an expression indicating that he has never been overcome by significant challenges or adversities. It conveys a sense of resilience, strength, and the ability to surmount obstacles.

For those who may not be familiar with the concept, in Greek mythology, the Gates of Hades, also known as the Gates of the Underworld, symbolize the entrance to the realm of the dead ruled by the god Hades.

Subsequently, Athena enters the scene and utters the statement, "Death cannot hold those with purpose, Kratos." This remark suggests that individuals, like Kratos in this instance, who possess a strong sense of purpose or a profound drive in their lives, are not easily defeated by death or the powers of Hades. It implies that individuals driven by a higher cause or those who possess a clear mission or goal in life are capable of transcending the limitations of mortality.

It is important to note that the intent of this interpretation is not to argue that Kratos is immortal (he is proven to be one, later on), as that is not the focus. Rather, it is to underscore the idea that individuals who are motivated by their goals, values, or ideals have the capacity to achieve remarkable feats and leave a lasting impact on the world, even in the face of mortality.

Kratos expresses curiosity regarding Athena's appearance, while she seems to have missed him. Although this exchange of conversation occurs, let us not dwell on it, as it is a minor aspect of the overall context.

Subsequently, she articulates the following proposition:

This aspect holds utmost significance, yet it seems to be largely overlooked. In examining the initial response provided by Kratos, it becomes apparent that...

This statement does not align with the concept of higher-dimensional existence (HDE) in mathematics, nor does it correspond to a contextual representation of a low 1-C statement. To be frank, it can be considered an anti-feat. Kratos made this statement in response to the notion of a "higher existence" being mentioned, and it is evident that the appearance of this entity has changed. It is important to note that the term "higher existence" does not imply the ability to universally influence, create, or destroy spatial entities of magnitudes that surpass those of a space-time continuum by one to two levels of infinity.

In fact, if one were to argue that this statement is an example of an HDE statement, it raises the question of why Kratos initially responded by referring to the woman's appearance. This contextual inconsistency is quite perplexing.

It is possible that my perspective is incorrect due to a lack of familiarity with the verse. To address this, let us examine the next statement that provides evidence supporting the idea that this “higher existence” was indeed referring to physical appearance:

Subsequently, the ensuing conversation revolves around their previous disputes. However, a noteworthy aspect emerges, wherein her selfless act yields a distinct advantage:

Following a discussion, she acquired the blades of exile from Kratos' body, which had previously sustained damage.

Subsequently, she departed and vanished. Eventually, the gameplay became visible.

Now, let us delve into the topic of scaling and powerscaling in this video. The concept of a higher existence encompasses her manifestation, which aligns with Kratos' assertions. Through her sacrificial act, she possesses the ability to perceive truths and traverse the physical vessels of individuals in order to seize them. However, these factors hold no relevance in the context of low 1-C scaling.

Considering the broader context, it is difficult to perceive how any of this suggests low 1-C or HDE (the current HDE necessitates more comprehensive mathematical and dimensional explanations). Rather, these aspects predominantly pertain to spiritual realms.

Author's interpretation​

---

Now, I will proceed to the second video in which the author provides an explanation. The author focuses on emphasizing the significance of Athena's character art and the importance of paying attention to its intricate details. Let us now examine how this understanding contributes to justifying Athena's placement at the low 1-C level.

The author initially highlights the importance of Athena's character art and subsequently presents a justification for her ascension to a higher realm through a significant sacrifice.

To clarify, the primary evidence presented employs the term "existence," which the author interprets as "realm." Furthermore, the author uses the term "plane" and also describes the act of "going to a place that is higher than anyone else." After analyzing the author's arguments, it is apparent that these terms are meant to refer to a place, realm, or plane of existence, rather than a mere state of being. Therefore, the consideration of additional dimensions or axes, as suggested by the concept of HDE, is unwarranted in this context.

The situation is analogous to Mori's case, where he also ascends to a higher plane. While some argue that a comparison between the two cases may be unfair, citing the need for more context, I will reserve judgment until such context is presented.

Upon watching the entire video, the author confirms the notion I previously mentioned, namely, the corruption being a significant aspect. It is important to emphasize that the higher power that many individuals equate with a “higher existence” is fundamentally incorrect. Instead, the term “higher power” simply implies that one gains power upon entering this higher realm.

This is a crucial point because it necessitates defining the nature and capabilities of this higher power. Thus far, I have not encountered any instances where this power universally affects or destroys objects that possess spatial dimensions corresponding to one to two levels of infinity greater than a space-time continuum. If such instances exist, I request that you kindly bring them to my attention. As of now, the assertion that this higher realm and power are synonymous is entirely false. In fact, within the narrative and contextual context, these terms are used distinctively. While ascending to a higher realm grants an individual higher power, it does not indicate the extent or potency of that power. The videos I have observed thus far do not provide a definitive definition for this power, and I remain skeptical that one exists.

The following points outline the key concepts discussed:

• The term “higher existence” pertains to a superior plane, realm, or place, and does not imply a higher power.
• In this particular context, “higher power” signifies the attainment of an elevated plane, which may or may not involve extra-dimensionality or physicality.
• There is no evidence supporting the notion of higher dimensionality or qualitative superiority.
• The concept of Higher Dimensional Existence does not apply to these instances and justification.
• The idea that appearance is corrupted after comprehending the author's explanation is also expressed.

It is possible to achieve qualitative superiority through the acquisition of higher power, which encompasses various forms of transcendence. However, without proper context or evidence showcasing the capabilities of this power, it cannot be incorporated into our tiering system. As no feats or scenes demonstrating such powers have been observed.

1- Author statements and such secondary canon statements are valid only if they are supported or mentioned in the verse.

The statement of higher existence and the inability of 4-dimensional beings to can't interact with Athena, as well as transcending infinite 4D universes and evolving to a higher plane of existence, are contexts that show that higher existence is actually higher-dimensional existence, and these are supported by achievements in the verse. In short, if the statements contradict in the verse, we do not accept them.

2- Let's see what the author means when he says "higher existence" and "higher plane".

Cory Barlog calls the realm Athena ascends to the "higher plane of existence" and is a higher dimensional plane of existence with these extra contexts.

And when Athena ascended into this realm, her spiritual, mental, and physical existence, in short, her entire dimensional existence, was elevated to the same level as this higher dimensional plane/realm.

This was the reason Athena was corrupt. When Athena evolves into higher existence, she expresses that she sees all reality and has all the power in this realm thanks to UES. This is another reason for Athena's corruption.

3- The statement "power and existence that transcends all beings in the Greek realm" and "higher existence" were not distinguished by Cory Barlog, on the contrary, Barlog states that the reason for this is Athena's ascending to the higher plane of existence, in short, higher-dimensional existence, and that is why she degenerates.

Also, given Mori's case, the only context was that he simply evolved to the intersection of space-time, we don't see the consequences of equating existence there like Athena, or we can't see any more context behind it. This is exactly what Mori lacks.

4- Kratos is deceived by Athena's appearance and tells her that she looks like an Olympian, but Athena expresses that the view of her deceptive by her very existence. Also, a higher dimensional being may be human sized, which doesn't mean it doesn't have an extra axis.

We also see higher existence in the comic, this time depicted as a space that encompasses all of Egypt and beyond.

Edit: The reason why the realm is higher dimensional is that the phrase "higher plane of existence" actually transcends the infinite 4D realms and the mind, soul and body,4 dimensional beings cannot perceive and reach this realm, which is a higher plane of existence.

And Athena, after ascending to this realm, transcended all beings in the lower plane and infinite 4-D worlds like "higher existence", and ascended to the plane of existence that they cannot reach and reason with, and her power has accordingly increased both from the higher dimensional realm and because of her existence. Because of UES bullshit.

To explain the UES, of a character in GoW has a 5 dimensional existence or is powered by the 5 dimensional realm, their mental, spiritual, magical and physical power will scale fully into this realm.

Also, Kratos has no trouble interacting with beings that have a 4-dimensional existence, but he can never interact with the ascended Athena in pre-hope form.

To sum it all up ;

- The statement "higher plane of existence" in the series is actually a realm that completely transcends lower planes and infinite 4D structures as well as 4D beings, making interaction and perception impossible. No being and power on the lower plane (including 4-D beings) can't sense, interact or access this realm.

- When Athena ascended here, not only did her existence ascend to this plane, but her power also scaled to this realm thanks to the UES, because it was here that she gained her power and equated her completely existence with here.

- In Fiction, you can have a higher dimensional existence, in short, have an additional axis and be human-sized.(like a 4 dimensional cube the size of a standard cube...)
However, despite this, this confusion is cleared up in the verse and states that the appearance of Athena is a deception according to existence.

- The higher existence we see in the comic spans the entire Egypt realm and is completely beyond it. This is another proof of a higher dimensional plane of existence.
A small addition to encompass not the entire egyptian realm, also all the mythologies and realms found in GoW, plus a higher existence that completely transcends them.

I guess you don't know, but everything you've said has been discussed over at least 2 or 3 revisions, and people knowledgeable about Tier 1 have confirmed the existence of higher existence and Athena.

It's not the statement that matters, it's the context behind it and the feats that support them. And GoW has a lot of them.

 

[Just_a_Random_Butler]

@Emirp sumitpo @Just_a_Random_Butler @Elizhaa @Maverick_Zero_X Your opinions regarding this and Gilver's comment would be appreciated as well.

I'll have to choose to opt out of this one since I'm still occupied with wiki work.

 

[KLOL506]

I'll have to choose to opt out of this one since I'm still occupied with wiki work.

No worries my brother.

Georr, I suggest you delete your current comment, remake your argument using the points you used with a special emphasis on focusing it on OP like Dread did, instead of responding to other people's comment-arguments.

I will tell Tanin and Gilver to do the same.

And @ImmortalDread, I should warn you strongly not to respond to those counter-arguments against OP either. You've said your piece, it's done. You had your one shot, it's gone. Once all the arguments are in place, staff will vote accordingly.

Anybody unwilling to abide by these following comments from here onwards will meet my wrath and will be swiftly expelled from this thread, and reported directly to RVT.