Issei vs. Dante

[DragonEmperor23]

Then can you define what makes a transformation a transformation?

"Devil Trigger isn't a normal transformation, it's basically Dante using his demonic side more to boost his Stats and this makes him looks as a Devil instead of Human."

Dude that's describing what he's doing, not how it's not a transformation.

"Because It would make his profile cluttered" isn't an excuse for inaccuracy.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

What is being disscused here exactly?

 

[Schnee_One]

A transformation is a permanent amp to the character that permanetly amps and changes their stats. An Amp is a very small temporary boost.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

A transformation is a permanent amp to the character that permanetly amps and changes their stats. An Amp is a very small temporary boost.

So your argument is that if the amp isn't permanent, then it's not a transformation?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

What is being disscused here exactly?

I thought Dante would start in DT as that is the strongest form of Anime Dante by SBA. However, Schnee said he would not as DT is an amp and not a transformation. We are now discussing the difference between an amp and a transformation.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

DT is a transformation that amps all his stats/abilities, and his mind set is totally diferent there. If he starts in that form he ain't fooling around and will one-shot Issei ASAP. But this key covers his base form and the DT is what grants a "far higher", dunno if it changes anything.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Okay, to stop derailing and get back into the fight, let's say he starts in base form.

Issei uses Boost and Divide multiple times. Depending on his level of enhanced senses, he would probably realize that Issei has taken his strength. He could turn into DT then and then Issei would use the same tactics again. Since Boost multiplies Issei's speed as well, Dante wouldn't be able to blitz him once he uses DT. (I'm not sure about this so I put this in parentheses but if Dante's DT is proportional to himself, as in the form is stronger/faster when his base is stronger/faster, then it would also be weakened/slower than it usually is due to the multiple Divides weakening Dante). Then Issei will be able to take the rest with his AP/Speed advantage and Flight(until Dante uses DT), along with his huge AOE (Being able to envelop entire mountains, a city, and islands with his attacks). The bombardment of AOE blasts that he can move with extreme maneuverability should make dodging pretty much impossible. I'm not sure what the Untouchable is but Penetrate should bypass it. Penetrate should also neg his Dreadnaught form's shell and Reflect should make any projectiles from Dante useless. Also, by SBA this starts at 4km and while Issei is able to attack from that range, I'm not sure if this Dante is because his range only has two keys. If he can't then that's another advantage for Issei, if he can then the rest still applies. Voting for Issei for my reasoning.

Penetrate: One of Ddraig's original abilities which were locked away in the depths of the Boosted Gear, it allows Issei to bypass and transmit his attacks through objects and any defensive ability that would impede him from directly touching the target, including abilities that can nullify his powers on contact, as shown when it bypassed the Sacred Gear Canceller. He can use it to see through solid obstacles.

I realize that I'm probably going to have to do the "Dante doesn't use his hax often" vs "Dante spams all his hax abilities at once" debate that I had to go through in the Dante vs Goku Black thread and it sucksssssssssss

 

[Ionliosite]

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[Ionliosite]

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[Ionliosite]

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[Ionliosite]

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[Ionliosite]

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[Ionliosite]

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[Tony_di_bugalu]

I have time now, leaving this so you dont fall in despair @Ionliosite :v

How often does Issei use Divide? How does it works? Does he need to touch him, at distance, etc?

DT is (AFAIK) proportional to his base stats to a large margin (enough to stomp someone comparable to him in one hit).

Dante could redirect the attacks with Royal Guard but since "Penetrate" seems to **** with in Dante could only redirect them and not stop them. Also, does the AoE carries the "Penetrate" effect too or just punching or the like? Also, does it works in a passive way or he has to activate it?

Dante does not have Dreadnought in this key. Any projectiles are just redirected with royal guard or probably evaded.

Dante can levitate in base/semi DT but is more easy to fly with his DT.

Finally, is Issei a long range fighter or a H2H? That changes a lot of your post.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I vote for Dante because:

If he notices losing strength while his enemy gets stronger then DT will come to play way to earlier meaning hax.

He can either redirect attacks or heal himself with Royal Guard, use a doppleganger to deal a lot of damage and end fast the battle, evade the wyverns since it seems they need to touch Dante to halve his strength (or even destroy them), freeze Issei with cerberus, keep Issei close at all times thanks to his teleportation or keep him in check with Artemis homing attack.

Untouchable makes him invulnerable for a shor period of time, dunno if "Penetrate" could bypass it.

If Dante manages to destroy the armor or expose Issei he can deal way more damage with his holy water or using Beowulf which can throw projectiles.

On top of all Dante has actual Regenerationn meaning if Issei manages to debilitate him he can regen again and seal him.

TL;DR: Dante one shots using everything at once if he loses power or after a long battle he seals.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

"Since it seems they need to touch Dante to halve his strength"


Dividing Wyvern Fairy: Issei summons several small white dragons from the jewels in his armor. He can control and direct them with his thoughts, and they can reflect attacks and also use 'Divide' to halve the power of targets. He can change the colour of the wyverns into red, granting them the ability to use 'Boost', 'Transfer' and 'Penetrate'.

Where did you get that from?


Since DT is proportional, then that means Dante won't be as strong or fast when he transforms.

Penetrate negs both Untouchable and the healing aspect of Royal Guard, I posted the description of how it works.

The armor regens so destroying it won't do much and Issei will have a large AP advantage near the start so doing that will be tough. Beowulf's projectiles will just be turned back against Dante by Reflect.

Dante's regen is weakened the more times he uses it so Issei just has to hit him several times, which isn't going to be hard with his homing attacks that have giant AOE.

Dante's used Sealing all of one time and he's been in life threatening situations since then and not used it, so he's not going to use it on Issei.

Also, you're saying that Dante will use Doppelganger, holy water, Artemis, Royal Guard, and Beowulf. It's already been said that him only being able to use one Style at a time is game mechanics so that's not what I'm asking about but where did you get Dante using all of these abilities and weapons at the same time so efficiently from? Like, as that being something in character for him to do.

 

[Schnee_One]

Issei for Dragon's reasons

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Issei FRA.

 

[B4Bedo]

Dante FRA

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

From Vali's profile. I was asuming, those things also needed to touch something to divide.

I'll respond later.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

I believe contact is needed for the normal usage of Divide, but after it is done, there's no longer any need for it again. Both individual stats and power of attacks would be reduced automatically. There was a time Vali used it on Loki's attacks without making contact first, but Ise said "Is that an applied move of his technique to halve his territory?", implying it could have been Half Dimension (which is what I believe he did, though some disagree with this).

But really, Divide isn't needed for direct usage here as he just needs enough Boosts which is easy as he can use it dozens of times in an exhausted state. Btw, the amount of Boosts he starts with is more like twelve to fourteen on the average (ex: Diodora, Cao Cao, Loki, Apophis, etc). He used it ten times against Dulio, but that was after the partial DxD transformation which takes a lot of stamina. Aside from Boost (which also affects durability), he has amps in all basic areas of offence and defense too, although not quantifiable.

Just skimming through the thread, the wyverns can be recreated when destroyed. It's highly unlikely that ranged attacks will have much effect due to them. Holy water is hardly useful against High-class devils and above (how much does Dante use it anyway?) so it should have very little relevance here except I'm missing something.

The thing I'm holding on to is a small bottle that contains holy water. This was the other thing I prepared before I came here.

An item that doesn't have that much effect against High-class Devils. If the Devils here in the hall sees this, then they will have just laughed with their nose.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

@Dragon I ask again, is Issei a H2H fighter or he just flies away and spams long range projectiles?

Dante can redirect/reflect attacks back too, also, Dante's regen is not weakened the more he uses it/the longer a fight goes, dunno why he still has such weaknesses when nothing points to something like that.

>Dante's used Sealing all of one time and he's been in life threatening situations since then and not used it

I belive getting bombarded from all places (if he likes long range play) while becoming weaker every moment and having the options cut is one hell of a life threatening situation. In short, he'll use it.

Dante has a mastery over every weapon he finds, three of the styles in game are bs since they are just better use of guns, better use of melee weapons and dashes plus teleport which he should be able to do by default, doppleganger can use one set of weapons while Dante uses another one and DP is a last resort but seeing he is losing his power with every second he will just use everything.

@BFF

Just to clafiry, does Isse use Divide in character or does he spams it or it is more like an hidden As?

Also, Dante can probably sense Issei is a demon, he may not use it ASAP but he will use it, if the armor is on then nothing and if it breaks and he uses it in that moment then nothing too going by your post. In gamplay you can hurt Mundus with it but those probably are game mechanics.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

With a match from 4km away he's going to use projectile spam.

With Royal Guard right? Penetrate would neg that.

For the regen weakness thing, you should make a CRT for that as that's been on his profile for a long time.

"I belive getting bombarded from all places (if he likes long range play) while becoming weaker every moment and having the options cut is one hell of a life threatening situation. In short, he'll use it."

You misunderstood what I said. I said that Dante has only used his Sealing one time ever. Since then, Dante has been in situations where he could die and at no point did he use Sealing. So when he loses here, he will not use Sealing at any point during the fight.

"Dante has a mastery over every weapon he finds, three of the styles in game are bs since they are just better use of guns, better use of melee weapons and dashes plus teleport which he should be able to do by default, doppleganger can use one set of weapons while Dante uses another one and DP is a last resort but seeing he is losing his power with every second he will just use everything."

I didn't say he can't do that, I'm saying where does him spamming all his abilities at once being in character come from?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

In all seriousness though, going with Dante via hax and his wide arsenal

You know that having more abilities doesn't mean you win right? This Dante doesn't have any durability negating hax either.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I mean, I expected him to try and get closer but Teleport would close the gap pretty fast and will force Isse into H2H.

Penetrate has feats of bypassing attack reflection? If not Dante can Royal Release everything back at him.

The only time Dante was in a sitation in which he could die was during DMC5 against Urizen and he could not even destroy his barrier and got one shotted, twice :v

It's not really in character but once he gets serious (DT form) there is no holdback for him and will try to end it ASAP.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Penetrate: One of Ddraig's original abilities which were locked away in the depths of the Boosted Gear, it allows Issei to bypass and transmit his attacks through objects and any defensive ability that would impede him from directly touching the target, including abilities that can nullify his powers on contact, as shown when it bypassed the Sacred Gear Canceller. He can use it to see through solid obstacles.

^This would work.

"The only time Dante was in a sitation in which he could die was during DMC5 against Urizen and he could not even destroy his barrier and got one shotted, twice :v"

Right. And he didn't use Sealing at any of those points in the battle.


"It's not really in character but once he gets serious (DT form) there is no holdback for him and will try to end it ASAP."

There's a difference between being serious and using all your abilities at once. The former is easy to say a character will be, Dante was plenty serious against Urizen. The latter is not and requires evidence. Dante didn't do any of this ability spam against Urizen.

"I mean, I expected him to try and get closer but Teleport would close the gap pretty fast and will force Isse into H2H."

What's his teleport range?

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I mean, the attack is touching Dante, he just redirects/reflects it back at you.

>Right. And he didn't use Sealing at any of those points in the battle.

Because it was Vergil and he wants him dead, nor sealed. Besides, there was a barrier between them. And Urizen didn't do much besides one shottin his ass

I concede there, he might not use them ASAP in DT but they will come into play rather soon if Issei keeps becoming stronger/faster than him.

>What's his teleport range?

I can't belive I don't really know this one In gamplay not much, but he can spam it. That's why I said he can close the gap pretty fast.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

That's true but teleport is not even in character.

Penetrate bypassed power null and supposedly bypasses all forms of defense so it should bypass even attack reflection since AR is a thing in verse. But again royal guard or release haven't even ever been used in canon. You can't go like oh royal guard gg. It's an option so you can argue he'll use it if he's being severely pushed almost killed since he didn't even use it against vergil.

DT form means serious as in not holding back, not using every hax he's never used.

And regen can be tired and he has never survived something like decapitation so issei crushing his head is pretty easy. But again the regen will not hold out for long.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

The Sealing is a projectile too right? Issei can Reflect it back at Dante.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

>Getting close to a guy who is spaming lasers like there is no tomorrow is not in character.

Sure, why not.

Which Vergil?, because we only have cutscenes of the moments before the fight and when the fight is over. And I'm not saying it's RG GG.

"I concede there, he might not use them ASAP in DT but they will come into play rather soon if Issei keeps becoming stronger/faster than him."

You have played the games AFAIK, can you show evidence of his Regen getting tired? Or his regen being taxed? Neither Issei can survive decapitation and going by BFF post he is not really into spaming Divide rather using Boost which could only close the gap between the 2.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

But really, Divide isn't needed for direct usage here as he just needs enough Boosts which is easy as he can use it dozens of times in an exhausted state. Btw, the amount of Boosts he starts with is more like twelve to fourteen on the average (ex: Diodora, Cao Cao, Loki, Apophis, etc). He used it ten times against Dulio, but that was after the partial DxD transformation which takes a lot of stamina. Aside from Boost (which also affects durability), he has amps in all basic areas of offence and defense too, although not quantifiable.

Burning said that he doesn't need Divide to win here, not that he doesn't use it.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I understood wrong his post, shieeeet

"Just to clafiry, does Isse use Divide in character or does he spams it or it is more like an hidden As?"

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Spamming lasers... you mean like half of the things dante has to fight? Also his teleport is like 10m. He needs 400 teleports to close the distance. Yeah I can definitely see that happening.

First fight and second fight with vergil in DMC 3. Second fight a bit less, but first fight is like almost a full cut scene fight. Yet no signs of royal guard. There were plenty of cases to use it he still didn't.

Hmm basic case off the top of my head. In dmc5 when vergil first appears he says "go heal your wounds dante". If his regen were limitless he wouldn't need to heal his wounds considering how stupidly fast that can heal him.

Never said he could but he does mostly use divide against ranged attacks, pretty in character. And know what is also pretty in character? Ebony and Ivory. Which would be more in character than rebelion given the range here.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I understood wrong his post, shieeeet

"Just to clafiry, does Isse use Divide in character or does he spams it or it is more like an hidden As?"

He does only against ranged stuff though.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

None of the guys who spams lasers are more than a dozen of meters away from him.

First fight: in cutscene they talk and fight starts. The second cutscene shows Dante getting thrown around, some talk then a tired/ouclassed Dante gets impaled twice and more talk, there was no fight there. And there are no more escenes of him fighting, just beginning and end of the battle.

The previous moment debunks this, he is A-Ok when he finish his fight with Urizen, albeit somewhat tired, then a full power Vergil appears and throws that line, and nothing more. Not a show of his healing factor/Regenerationn getting taxed.

Dante is more of a H2H fighter, he rarely takes things to a large range game and uses them along with Rebellion, just look at the DMC3 cutscenes, heck before Urizen one-shots his ass he was getting close to Urizen never shotting a single bullet.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Which is his teleport range. If he doesn't use teleport in range you think he gonna use it 400 times in a row?

They still fight they shoot, fight, clash etc. Doesn't change the fact that royal guard has NEVER been used. Don't even try to say it will come out anytime soon.

Yeah that says he's tired. That changes the fact that vergil himself says go heal your wounds how exactly? If he needs to heal his wounds his regen can be tired.

He did shoot at urizen, echidna, berial, vergil, Nero, the knights in DMC 4 etc. Don't even try to say e&I are not ic. They are his number one way to start and end a fight.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

So, what does Dante use in character then? This is anime Dante, can't the show be used to gauge this?

Also, Dante can probably sense Issei is a demon, he may not use it ASAP but he will use it, if the armor is on then nothing and if it breaks and he uses it in that moment then nothing too going by your post.

Boost won't merely close the gap, it'd surpass it. Dante would not be able to break his armour to that extent in close combat as he would have used Boost enough times in advance and it affects defense. Assuming he doesn't, he would have known in advance that Dante's stronger, and then simply combine Rook + Boost to amplify his defense so Dante cannot go through the armour, as he did against Euclid who was superior to him. But if it hits him, it wouldn't count for much as holy water is in the bottom tier of things effective against demons in DxD and he's withstood better stuff from a Seraph level angel and ran straight through light techniques used by Loki with little trouble.

(Note: Never mind about the holy water stuff, I somehow completely misunderstood your statement..)

Reminds me though, could Ascalon be useful here? He does use it against people who wield melee weapons. I recognise Dante has resistance, but the holy weapons seem to be better as they do say it can make devils' existence vanish without a trace and weaken their power.

"It's the damage caused by the holy-sword. Devils and fallen-angels get their power and existence erased by receiving damage from the holy-sword to their body. If it were a bit deeper, then it would have been critical."

"Did you know you almost died just now? Pierced by the holy spear, you were almost erased. Death is surprisingly simple, no?"

Cao Cao laughed lightly.

...You said I almost died just now? Really. Yes, it was a critical wound right in the belly, but I've had had similar in the past, and I could still move. I was even thinking of sending a punch to your face as a counter.

—- Almost erased?

Was it referring to devils disappearing without trace from holy attacks? ...I was in that state just now? ...Smoking all over my body, my existence was about to disappear?

Realizing that, I had reason to shudder.

If not, he could simply use Boost to massively amplify the effects as he did against Riser using holy water. Normally, Riser would be able to ignore the effects of holy water, but after the power was increased, he took heavy damage from it and could not control his powers properly again.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Yeah, that's a valid argument I didn't think about. Issei has his own anti devil weapons that he can use on Dante.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

I looked up vids of anime Dante fighting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw8UswJlo68

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPMNWFmD5Qw

He doesn't seem to use Styles at all, just his swords and guns.

 

[Schnee_One]

Even against Abigail he didn't use them btw