Is this feat High 3-A, Low 2-C, or Unquantifiable?

[Assaltwaffle]

I am looking to create a profile for the Spirit Beast of RuneScape.

The Beast's best feat is a space-time destroying feat. In order to get back to the real world, it decides to claw its way straight through the realm connecting universes instead of entering it and then leaving it.

This clawing left large parts of the Abyssal universe destroyed, leaving huge voids where space, time, energy, and matter. This lead to the creation of an entirely separate realm known as The Void.

Unlike most voids in fiction, this one lives up to the name. There is nothing here. Space and time have literally been torn apart around it and nothing remains.

So, is this really high tier Space manipulation, or is it true, quantifiable 4-D space-time destruction? If it is, is being able to carve apart a universal space-time continuum and leave a void in its place High 3-A or true Low 2-C?

Any input is appreciated.

 

[Kaltias]

It sounds like a High 3-A feat, Low 2-C would be destroying the space-time of the entire universe

 

[Assaltwaffle]

High 3-A makes sense. Would the Beast get Infinite speed for creating and residing in this timeless realm?

 

[Kaltias]

If it's the natural environment of the Spirit Beast, infinite speed should be acceptable. People like Solaris and SCP-239 are infinite in speed for this reason

 

[Assaltwaffle]

The thing is, it only became its natural environment after it created the realm. It was previously a denizen of the Spirit Realm before it created this realm of nonexistence that it now resides in.

 

[Kaltias]

This should warrant an infinite speed rating I think

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Is it regularly tagged by people nowhere near infinite speed or show speeds far lower? If so then probably not, but if not then nothing should contradict it having that speed.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Good point. It is fought by people who lack infinite speed. Even though it has the timeless Void as its realm it doesn't seem to be able to retain that speed outside the Void.

 

[Kaltias]

I mean, there is scaling.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

It would be a grievous outlier for the verse though. Nothing else comes close to that. The Elder Gods are MFTL+ for universal travel, but other characters are able to react to the Spirit beast, characters far FAR weaker than it. The AP rating makes sense since you can only hurt it by hitting it with negative energy and playing against its natural weaknesses, not directly fighting it.

 

[Kaltias]

If it's an outlier for those who scale, just consider the SB as infinite without scaling the others. Especially if they don't scale anyway

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Well the player and spirits are able to engage it in combat, they just can't hurt it naturally. They have to lure it to certain locations that have negative spirit energy to force it to take physical form and trap it. But that whole plan relies on the fact that they can move faster than or the same speed as the SB. If SB is Infinite it should have zero trouble instantly eating everyone's soul.

 

[Kaltias]

I mean, that's the exact same thing as Sonic with Solaris

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Huh. I guess you're right. I guess the SB could be infinite. Hopefully some other members will reply, because I can absolutely be convinced to go either way right now.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Spirit Beast

I went ahead and made the profile. We can adjust as needed from its profile, but I wanted to get it up.

 

[Antvasima]

This seems like a High 3-A feat, yes.

However, we have changed our standards for immeasurable and infinite speed, so being able to move in a void without time no longer qualifies characters for the ratings.

 

[Kaltias]

Then what qualifies as infinite speed exactly? Other than travelling an infinite distance

 

[Antvasima]

Travelling anywhere instantly, or moving while time literally stands still within a regular continuum, where time and distance applies.

 

[Kaltias]

We would call the former hyperbole 99,9999999999999999999% of the time and the latter "resistance to time stop" though

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it depends on if it is played straight or not. Zoom (Hunter Zolomon) (Post-Crisis) has infinite speed for example.

Regarding movement in a void supposedly without time:

DarkLK likened it to different environments with different rules that do not apply to each other, or more specifically not being able to swim on land.

Others simply stated that since the d/t=v formula does not apply for environments where t is nonexistent, we cannot draw any conclusions for how v works when t is not a factor to be counted.

Yet another point is that moving in a void bereft of universal time is a common plot convenience that is almost never shown to affect movement speed within a continuum.

As such, it should be considered as a separate hax ability, not as a speed, unless it is stated outright within the story that it requires the ability to transcend time to do so.

 

[Kaltias]

I mean, the difference in speed between me swimming and me running is nowhere near infinite.

Also if t is not necessary for you to move, this shows that it's value isn't relevant -> infinite speed because you can move when t=0

Living in a void without time is far different from simply moving into one. If you are performing a feat 24/7, it can't be simply PIS.

This means that it would be about author intent though.

 

[Antoniofer]

I think that DarkLK already explained the conditions to be infinite/immesurable in speed; I think that you would need an statement now to rate someone as infinity. Also, even that wasn't mentioned, a character with supposed infinite speed shouldn't stop having that rating if there's someone faster.

 

[Antvasima]

DarkLK was speaking allegorically, not literally.

The point is that t is not equal to 0 in a void without time, the variable itself has been removed from the equation.

The problem is that it is common for fictional characters to move within such voids, whether or not they originated there or not, and for other characters with far more limited speed feats to keep up with them anyway.

As such, we can only use these types of feats when it is stated outright that they require infinite speed, or the ability to transcend linear time altogether.

 

[Kaltias]

Ok, but the difference between moving in space-time and moving in water is absurd. Especially because water and air are both fluids, one is just denser. Space-time and a void aren't.

If it can be removed, it means that it's irrelevant for the result. Why you don't need temperature to calculate KE? Because it doesn't affect the result.

As explained above, you just have to look at the consistency of the feat. If they do it 24/7, it can be an outlier for the one who tagged them, but not for them.

That's still taking author intent into account too much. If two characters perform the same feat, they should be rated the same.

 

[The_Everlasting]

"As such, we can only use these types of feats when it is stated outright that they require infinite speed, or the ability to transcend linear time altogether."

I have said it before, and I'll say it again.

Literally no verse does this.

 

[Antvasima]

The intended point was that you cannot move in the same way in different environments with entirely different rules.

We had a long discussion about this before deciding upon these standards.

By your reasoning we would end up with a massive amount of characters rated with immeasurable or infinite speed while never ever demonstrating such a ridiculous speed advantage against regular opponents.

If it helps, here are the current standards in our speed page:

Infinite Speed (Able to move indefinitely while time literally stands still, or to travel anywhere instantly. Teleportation does not count.)

Immeasurable (Movement beyond linear time. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed.)

Note 4:

Movement in a realm without space or time does not mean that a character has immeasurable speed within a realm of space and time, because there is no distance or time to be measured in the first place.

Note 5:

Characters that are able to move backwards and forwards through time by movement alone qualify for immeasurable speed. However, due to general inconsistencies, and the fact that several fictions grant this ability to any character able to move FTL, they may be assigned an additional, independent, speed rating for the ability. This should preferably be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

 

[Schnee_One]

"Stated outright that they require infinite speed"

When was this done?

 

[The_Everlasting]

"By your reasoning we would end up with a massive amount of characters rated with immeasurable or infinite speed while never ever demonstrating such a ridiculous speed advantage against regular opponents."

PIS exists you know.

Or those people actually scale.

Regardless, I'm pretty sure Matthew was going to talk about this with DarkLK, and he brought up a lot of valid points on how frankly nonsensical our current requirements are.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, our current standards were worked out by asking DarkLK and Sera for information. Sera has left the wiki, but DarkLK might be willing to help.

 

[Schnee_One]

Quick question to Ever.

How fast is someone who exists outside the axis of time?

 

[Antvasima]

If they genuinely transcend time, they have immeasurable speed, but if they simply exist outside of time, we would have to go by feats inside of its confines.

 

[The_Everlasting]

I'm pretty sure transcending time is Infinite, while transcending time and space is Immeasurable.

 

[Schnee_One]

Thanks

 

[Antvasima]

Actually, transcending linear time means immeasurable, whereas transcending the concept of dimensions themselves means irrelevant.

 

[Antoniofer]

Can someone trascend time without transcending space? I mean, space is 3-D and time 4-D, infinite should be either crossing infinite distance in a finite time, or crossing a finite distance in t = 0.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

For the record, Sera doesn't agree to our requirements for Infinite Speed I'm pretty sure.

Secondly...

I have to agree with Ever.

What is the difference between transcending time and existing outside of time?

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I am about to fall over from overwork here today, so I cannot continue to argue about this.

However, the problem is that the current standards are the best option that we were able to work out when our most knowledgeable members about the subject helped out with evaluating the issue. We have no better/more rational system to replace it with.

 

[Antvasima]

I am the wrong person to ask, but as far as I have had it explained to me, existing outside of time is not the same thing as possessing multiple dimensions of time, or being able to move backwards and forwards through it at different rates via speed alone.

 

[Antvasima]

Time and lack of time are entirely different environments with entirely different rules.

 

[Antvasima]

In any case, if you wish to change our standards, you have to have indepth talks with the available people who actually understand the concept well, including DarkLK.

We cannot start randomly changing our standards without a coherent plan, just because we want to have a greater amount of highly rated characters.