• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

is heaven considered a universe in dragon ball?

Status
Not open for further replies.
No, I don't think we considered Heaven a universe. Currently the characters are scaling to 3 universes for destruction of the Macrocosm but I don't think Heaven is one of those universes, at least from what I checked. Could be wrong though, I don't follow the dragon ball cosmology stuff like that.
 
No, I don't think we considered Heaven a universe. Currently the characters are scaling to 3 universes for destruction of the Macrocosm but I don't think Heaven is one of those universes, at least from what I checked. Could be wrong though, I don't follow the dragon ball cosmology stuff like that.
People are telling me Goku scales to 9 universes, not 3..
 
No, I don't think we considered Heaven a universe. Currently the characters are scaling to 3 universes for destruction of the Macrocosm but I don't think Heaven is one of those universes, at least from what I checked. Could be wrong though, I don't follow the dragon ball cosmology stuff like that.
Heaven is said to be as big as the universe, although i don't know if it is the Universe, but there is several evidence that it is the size of a.

 
Last edited:
People are telling me Goku scales to 9 universes, not 3..
Yes, in Dragon Ball's cosmology there are three Universal-sized spacetimes, and Goku and Jiren are superior to some gods, and in the other Universe there are several other afterlife kingdoms

So you are destroying 9 Universes that are separated by spacetime.
 
If you look at what a universe looks like, you can see that Heaven is a really huge planet within a Universe, which is 40% universe and 60% Other World:
latest
 
the sky is the size of the universe, but it is part of the other world, they consider the other world as a universe that has the sky the size of the universe within it.
 
Using something visual to say that something is not the size of the universe or infinite is practically discrediting all verses.
ok lets talk more about it
Everyone knows the famous scan:

No Caption Provided
that states heaven is as wide as the universe thus making it equal to the mortal universe in dragon ball.

I do not have the official translation so correct me if im wrong but I believe this is a mistranslation

The reason is because the word used could of likely been "sekai" which also means world


No Caption Provided
Meaning heaven could potentially just be equal to the Earth in size.

There is more proof because one:

Daio kaio planet is visible in heaven.


No Caption ProvidedNo Caption ProvidedNo Caption Provided
How is this relevant to heaven though? Because the daio kaio planet is stated to be a small planet:

No Caption ProvidedNo Caption Provided
and as seen here ^ the mansion is even visible on the daio kaio planet which shows how small it is. How would such a small planet be visible in heaven when its supposed to be the size of the universe?

Planes can also travel to heaven


No Caption Provided
That would mean that planes would have to be traveling trillions of times the speed of light.

such as the one below traveling to daio kaio's planet as well


No Caption Provided
as seen here a small planet is visible above the surface of heaven(which looks very much like a planets surface)

Heaven can't also be seen from the bottom of the afterlife


No Caption Provided
which doesn't make sense at all, if heaven was truly universal sized it would make up 25% of the DB macrocosm.

Here's why.

The living world is stated to be HALF of the DB macrocosm


No Caption Provided
and outer space is stated to be HALF of the living world, meaning its 25% of the DB macrocosm. The DB macrocosm is 4x greater in size than the mortal universe.

No Caption Provided
which is equal the observable universe.

If heaven was truly equal to that in size than why does it not take up 25% of the macrocosm? Why is a small planet visible above it as well by statements and visually?

and lastly


No Caption Provided
The afterlife is divine into three areas. Hell, King Enma realm and the Kaio Realm. Heaven belongs to the Kaio Realm meaning the Kaio Realm as a whole>>Heaven which again contradicts Heaven being universal sized as that would make Heaven 25% of the DB macrocosm. The After life>>Kaio Realm>>heaven.

1. Daio Kaio planet is small planet is visible above Heaven visually and by statement

Daio kaio planet is likely just 100x bigger than king kai's planet since king kai's planet used to be 100x greater in size


No Caption Provided
2. Heaven being universal in size makes no sense as its a mere speck inside the DB macrocosm while the mortal universe and the demon realm on the other hand both each make up 25% of the DB macrocosm and together make up half of it.

3. Heaven is stated to be a part of the Kaio Realm which one of the 3 areas of the after life which contradicts heaven being 25% of the DB macrocosm.

I think Heaven is not universal sized and its likely a mistranslation unless someone can give me the actual translation of the guide. Heaven is only stated to be the size of the universe in the scan and in an anime filler scene.
 
ok lets talk more about it
Everyone knows the famous scan:

No Caption Provided
that states heaven is as wide as the universe thus making it equal to the mortal universe in dragon ball.

I do not have the official translation so correct me if im wrong but I believe this is a mistranslation

The reason is because the word used could of likely been "sekai" which also means world


No Caption Provided
Meaning heaven could potentially just be equal to the Earth in size.

There is more proof because one:

Daio kaio planet is visible in heaven.


No Caption ProvidedNo Caption ProvidedNo Caption Provided
How is this relevant to heaven though? Because the daio kaio planet is stated to be a small planet:

No Caption ProvidedNo Caption Provided
and as seen here ^ the mansion is even visible on the daio kaio planet which shows how small it is. How would such a small planet be visible in heaven when its supposed to be the size of the universe?

Planes can also travel to heaven


No Caption Provided
That would mean that planes would have to be traveling trillions of times the speed of light.

such as the one below traveling to daio kaio's planet as well


No Caption Provided
as seen here a small planet is visible above the surface of heaven(which looks very much like a planets surface)

Heaven can't also be seen from the bottom of the afterlife


No Caption Provided
which doesn't make sense at all, if heaven was truly universal sized it would make up 25% of the DB macrocosm.

Here's why.

The living world is stated to be HALF of the DB macrocosm


No Caption Provided
and outer space is stated to be HALF of the living world, meaning its 25% of the DB macrocosm. The DB macrocosm is 4x greater in size than the mortal universe.

No Caption Provided
which is equal the observable universe.

If heaven was truly equal to that in size than why does it not take up 25% of the macrocosm? Why is a small planet visible above it as well by statements and visually?

and lastly


No Caption Provided
The afterlife is divine into three areas. Hell, King Enma realm and the Kaio Realm. Heaven belongs to the Kaio Realm meaning the Kaio Realm as a whole>>Heaven which again contradicts Heaven being universal sized as that would make Heaven 25% of the DB macrocosm. The After life>>Kaio Realm>>heaven.

1. Daio Kaio planet is small planet is visible above Heaven visually and by statement

Daio kaio planet is likely just 100x bigger than king kai's planet since king kai's planet used to be 100x greater in size


No Caption Provided
2. Heaven being universal in size makes no sense as its a mere speck inside the DB macrocosm while the mortal universe and the demon realm on the other hand both each make up 25% of the DB macrocosm and together make up half of it.

3. Heaven is stated to be a part of the Kaio Realm which one of the 3 areas of the after life which contradicts heaven being 25% of the DB macrocosm.

I think Heaven is not universal sized and its likely a mistranslation unless someone can give me the actual translation of the guide. Heaven is only stated to be the size of the universe in the scan and in an anime filler scene.
as such it is not a translation error and there are no fillers for the cosmologies we use now.

In addition, we did not use the visual representation of the macrocosm to scale the sizes, since it was discarded because the drawings were not to scale.
 

Heaven is universe-sized, but that’s different from being directly called a universe. Though a space-time must be universe-sized to be Low 2-C rather than remain an untiered 4-D construct, being universe-sized doesn’t make something an isolated continuum unless it’s said be a universe in its own right, which we recognize as indicating a separate space-time by default.

Regardless, as discussed in the thread linked above, Heaven is directly disqualified from being Low 2-C as it seems to be isolated from the other dimensions by a cloud barrier, which is a hard disqualifier for something being a space-time continuum. Separate universes must be isolated by a higher-dimensional barrier, or one that explicitly restricts movement on a 3-Dimensional level.
No offense to you specifically, but I’m surprised to see this old argument still being used. It’s right below “the macrocosm is 4 galaxies large at best” and “the shockwaves from Goku and Beerus got stronger on their own” in the hall of fame of comicvine-grade debunks against Dragon Ball.

Goku had already seen Heaven and called it huge, after which King Kai pointed out they were arriving at the Grand Kaio’s world, which Goku had called a small planet as it was the actual “small planet” Goku was referencing here.
Then again…
like bro heaven is so small it cannot be seen from the bottom of the after life
8152857-6761534023-23.pn.png
IMG-1061.jpg
It seems you’re copy-pasting debunks directly from comicvine, so you likely know the problems at hand already.
 

Heaven is universe-sized, but that’s different from being directly called a universe. Though a space-time must be universe-sized to be Low 2-C rather than remain an untiered 4-D construct, being universe-sized doesn’t make something an isolated continuum unless it’s said be a universe in its own right, which we recognize as indicating a separate space-time by default.

Regardless, as discussed in the thread linked above, Heaven is directly disqualified from being Low 2-C as it seems to be isolated from the other dimensions by a cloud barrier, which is a hard disqualifier for something being a space-time continuum. Separate universes must be isolated by a higher-dimensional barrier, or one that explicitly restricts movement on a 3-Dimensional level.

No offense to you specifically, but I’m surprised to see this old argument still being used. It’s right below “the macrocosm is 4 galaxies large at best” and “the shockwaves from Goku and Beerus got stronger on their own” in the hall of fame of comicvine-grade debunks against Dragon Ball.

Goku had already seen Heaven and called it huge, after which King Kai pointed out they were arriving at the Grand Kaio’s world, which Goku had called a small planet as it was the actual “small planet” Goku was referencing here.

Then again…


It seems you’re copy-pasting debunks directly from comicvine, so you likely know the problems at hand already.
thank you
 

Heaven is universe-sized, but that’s different from being directly called a universe. Though a space-time must be universe-sized to be Low 2-C rather than remain an untiered 4-D construct, being universe-sized doesn’t make something an isolated continuum unless it’s said be a universe in its own right, which we recognize as indicating a separate space-time by default.

Regardless, as discussed in the thread linked above, Heaven is directly disqualified from being Low 2-C as it seems to be isolated from the other dimensions by a cloud barrier, which is a hard disqualifier for something being a space-time continuum. Separate universes must be isolated by a higher-dimensional barrier, or one that explicitly restricts movement on a 3-Dimensional level.

No offense to you specifically, but I’m surprised to see this old argument still being used. It’s right below “the macrocosm is 4 galaxies large at best” and “the shockwaves from Goku and Beerus got stronger on their own” in the hall of fame of comicvine-grade debunks against Dragon Ball.

Goku had already seen Heaven and called it huge, after which King Kai pointed out they were arriving at the Grand Kaio’s world, which Goku had called a small planet as it was the actual “small planet” Goku was referencing here.

Then again…


It seems you’re copy-pasting debunks directly from comicvine, so you likely know the problems at hand already.
Profectus saving DB powerscaling again
 
they scale to 6 universal space times via scaling to GoD who can destroy 2 macrocosms with 3 universal space times in each
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top