Is Centripetal Force a Valid Method of Getting Lifting Strength?

[ElajRuengies]

Let's say a character swings in a circle a wrecking ball that weighs 800 kg- obviously the weight of the wrecking ball itself already is Class 1 LS.

But swinging the wrecking ball at, say, 10 meters per second tangential to the circle, at a radius of 1 meter, will create a tension force on the cable (and the swinger's arms) that will be much higher than the force of gravity from just picking the wrecking ball up. Specifically it'll be-

• F = (m * v^2) / r
• (800 * 10^2) / 1 = 80000

80,000 Newtons of force, or Class 10.
Since the character's arms are capable of swinging the ball despite there being over eight tonnes of force on them, would it be okay to say that they have Class 10 Lifting Strength?

 

[KLOL506]

Hmmmmmm. Following. This is the first time someone has recommended centripetal force for LS.

 

[ElajRuengies]

I mean, I figure it's a similar situation to decelerating a car, where the amount of force it takes to do the action on the object is much higher than actually lifting the object off the ground, but it's still okay a feat. Although I could be wrong.

 

[ElajRuengies]

Bump
(You can bump every 12 hours, right?)

 

[Bernkastelll]

Bump
(You can bump every 12 hours, right?)

idk, i bump after some hours, or I just delete the previous bump and send a new one

 

[KLOL506]

Bump
(You can bump every 12 hours, right?)

6-12 hours, yeah

 

[ElajRuengies]

6-12 hours, yeah

Aight cool

 

[ElajRuengies]

Hmmmmmm. Following. This is the first time someone has recommended centripetal force for LS.

Should I have put this in calc group discussions instead?

 

[Blahblah9755]

You should try asking here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/official-calculations-discussion-thread.123478/

 

[ElajRuengies]

You should try asking here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/official-calculations-discussion-thread.123478/

Ah, thanks!

 

[FinePoint]

I see no reason why physically there should be an issue with this.
Other than perhaps it being a durability feat for their arms, but that feels like reaching.

 

[Chariot190]

Interested in this, if legit I could use this for a few things.

 

[ElajRuengies]

Interested in this, if legit I could use this for a few things.

I've gotten some responses on the calculations discussions thread, but I wanna see what a Calc Group Members says

Also gonna put in this tidbit-
The World Record Men's Hammer Throw was thrown at a speed of 30.7 m/s, the hammer weighs 7.26 kg, and the chain is 1.213 meters long. However, as the hammer speeds up the thrower's entire body is spinning, so the radius will also include the thrower's arms. Average person's arm is about 64 cm long (Source: Google it), meaning-

• (7.26 * 30.7^2) / (1.213 + 0.64) = 3692.648354 Newtons
• 3692.648354 / 9.806 m/s2 = 376.5702992

The Hammer Throw World Record required ~376.57 kg of force, which is Peak Human level, so I'd say that it's consistent with reality.

 

[Chariot190]

Contact some calc members maybe?

 

[ElajRuengies]

Done

 

[CloverDragon03]

I think this makes sense, especially since swinging a wrecking ball (in this example) would definitely be a more impressive feat than just lifting it.

 

[KieranH10]

I also agree with this. In a way, the way Force is applied by an object, as long as it's sustainable (Not just a punch or kick) shouldn't matter in terms of Lifting Strength in most cases, Swinging, Lifting, Pushing, and anything else that requires similar force should be fine.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Also since the two seem to go together, I want to say this now, centrifugal force can't be used for this because it's a fictitious force, meaning it doesn't actually exist.

 

[ElajRuengies]

Also since the two seem to go together, I want to say this now, centrifugal force can't be used for this because it's a fictitious force, meaning it doesn't actually exist.

Yeah I agree-
(Talked a bit more about it here- https://vsbattles.com/threads/official-calculations-discussion-thread.123478/post-4430519)

Anywho, Centrifugal Force is a No- this is about Centripetal Force

Thanks for answering @DragonGamerZ913 and @KieranH10 : D

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I...

Hm.

I find issue with this, actually. The way centripedal force works is that more often than not it is carried by its own momentum, which is slowly built up by the carrier. Take for example Olympic athletes in the Hammer Throw to get an idea of what I'm talking about. The force of the object is not necessarily equal to what they can lift in that scenario- because it is building its own momentum on top of what the athlete is contributing.

I hope I'm making sense, I woke up just a few minutes ago.

 

[Chariot190]

What about in cases where a character builds that momentum in a nigh instant? Something like the good ol gay Bowser perhaps might be iffy, but what about in a situation Mario, for example, got Koopa to full spin and did a full rotation from a standstill in less than half a second or something?

 

[FinePoint]

I...

Hm.

I find issue with this, actually. The way centripedal force works is that more often than not it is carried by its own momentum, which is slowly built up by the carrier. Take for example Olympic athletes in the Hammer Throw to get an idea of what I'm talking about. The force of the object is not necessarily equal to what they can lift in that scenario- because it is building its own momentum on top of what the athlete is contributing.

I hope I'm making sense, I woke up just a few minutes ago.

Their arms will still be receiving the full extent of the centripetal force once it's fully accelerated, though.
The strength required to get it to the point of swinging is a different math problem, and one where you would be right that the momentum is building up and making it easier.

If you have anything heavy you can swing, you can test it yourself. Once it's spinning real fast, you will feel yourself being dragged outwards (and around) by the momentum of the spinning object.
To stay firmly in one place and resist this extra motion, you have to exert enough centripetal force, which can be calculated.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Their arms being affected by force is not indicative of lifting strength. At that point you're dealing in the realms of durability.

Sure, I guess, but this doesn't totally negate what I said. Momentum plays a heavy role in this and means not 100% of the LS can be assumed to come from the lifter. So I'd be against it.

 

[FinePoint]

Their arms being affected by force is not indicative of lifting strength. At that point you're dealing in the realms of durability.

Sure, I guess, but this doesn't totally negate what I said. Momentum plays a heavy role in this and means not 100% of the LS can be assumed to come from the lifter. So I'd be against it.

Where else would it be coming from?
The momentum does not help in keeping the object close, it's technically what's making it difficult.

 

[Blahblah9755]

Their arms being affected by force is not indicative of lifting strength. At that point you're dealing in the realms of durability.

Sure, I guess, but this doesn't totally negate what I said. Momentum plays a heavy role in this and means not 100% of the LS can be assumed to come from the lifter. So I'd be against it.

This sounds like you fundamentally misunderstand how centripetal force works. Centripetal force is the force needed to pull an object inwards to keep it in rotational motion, since otherwise it would just fly away due to the velocity it has perpendicular to the centripetal force. This force has to come entirely from whatever is holding it in revolution. For this to be a matter of durability, you’d basically need to have someone tied to whatever object they’re holding and the ground in some way where they can’t let go or move. If they’re holding the object and standing, then it would require their lifting strength to hold that object without having their grip broken, and stay in place without getting pulled away.
Additionally, the force being applied to give it momentum and the force being applied to pull this object into a rotational motion are completely different things, one is perpendicular to the motion, the other is in the direction of the motion. In fact it’s literally impossible for these two forces to contribute to one another due to the fact that they’re perpendicular.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

By technicality, aye, though others in the thread seemed to imply they were talking about the force of the object when they referred to centripedal force, rather than the force being subjected onto the thrower (namely the comment regarding swinging a wrecking ball). You are right that I misunderstood with the durability comment, however.

 

[FinePoint]

By technicality, aye, though others in the thread seemed to imply they were talking about the force of the object when they referred to centripedal force, rather than the force being subjected onto the thrower (namely the comment regarding swinging a wrecking ball). You are right that I misunderstood with the durability comment, however.

I have a lot of respect for people who can admit they were wrong. It's fine.

You are right that there are a couple things to consider that might invalidate the feat. The radius and velocity are divisors and can allow someone to spin an object in the air even if they couldn't normally lift it with the same ease.

For example, even if a a 62kg person can't do a pull-up they can still likely spin another 62kg person around by holding their hands and first dragging them along the ground (Holding the hands increases the radius which makes it easier.)
If you have or spend time with energetic kids, you may notice it's mechanically far easier to spin them this way than lift them with just your hands. Therefore, if they can spin a wrecking ball at a wide radius and this value yields less force than its weight, but they have to first drag it along the ground, then this spinning value should be used instead of the weight. Assuming, of course, that the frictional force of dragging it is also less than its weight. If they can simply lift it normally, then them spinning it can still provide an even higher value which is usable.

Additionally, if while spinning the object they are dragged around in a spiral pattern and/or can't maintain their footing it shouldn't be used.
This is direct proof they're not strong enough, since this is evidence of the object following its tangential velocity to some degree despite the force. They should be able to spin in place if they are strong enough.

Oh, yes, and them being able to accelerate the object to this speed is difficult and pointless to calc, as the building momentum makes it easier and easier.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

This seems logical, there are different levels of lifting something, being able to swing something around being something very impressive

 

[Mariogoods]

Interested in this, if legit I could use this for a few things.

Such as Sun Wukongs' lifting strength.

 

[KLOL506]

Sorry for the necro but uh, this seems interesting enough to follow.

@DontTalkDT What do you think?

 

[ElajRuengies]

Sorry for the necro but uh, this seems interesting enough to follow.

@DontTalkDT What do you think?

Oh uh- I thought I had the OK so I already made the Centripetal Force calc...

(Also I noticed that there was already an accepted centripetal force calc)

 

[DontTalkDT]

@DontTalkDT What do you think?

Probably.

 

[KLOL506]

Probably.

So uh... is that a yes or a no for using centripetal force for LS?

 

[DontTalkDT]

So uh... is that a yes or a no for using centripetal force for LS?

Spoiler

It's a yes. As long as there is no leverage and the stuff is held, and not tied on, of course.

 

[KLOL506]

Spoiler

It's a yes. As long as there is no leverage and the stuff is held, and not tied on, of course.

BASED

 

[ElajRuengies]

BASED

So the method for two of these calcs is valid- noice.