Invincible season 3 discussion

[ReturnofKhadz]

I always thought that was stupid and made no sense.

This would also explain why they think Mark growing that 238% in strength might well be enough to deal with Anissa; because that's just what the writers think it's enough to bridge the difference in their power.

Yeah tbf these types of numbers would often come up in Marvel/DC comics and other media regularly.

 

[ReturnofKhadz]

I lost all hope of power consistency in season two when the mauler twins started beating the shit out of invincible. Hard to take the threat of a viltrimite invasion seriously if an army of maulers can just bash in the skull of any viltrimite that decides to try and attack the planet. Also how do they nearly kill invincible yet an explosion that vaporizes them does nothing to mark? That's honestly my biggest peeve with this show.

Seems like this only happens to Mark which is funny. Other Viltrumites like Nolan and Anissa were portrayed more invulnerable than he was, at least from what I got watching them on Earth.

 

[Reyne]

Season 2 said Mark was holding back

Most heroes hold back, yes.

Now that I think about it, being as Mark is just about where he is for a while already, the Maulers being able to bleed him might put them on par with Dinosaurus. That is, only is Dinosaurus still can't slash or bite Invincible, but simply punch hard enough to draw some blood. We'll have to wait and see, especially is the show forgoes Allen's holding back line like they did in the Immortal scene.

 

[ReturnofKhadz]

Most heroes hold back, yes.

Now that I think about it, being as Mark is just about where he is for a while already, the Maulers being able to bleed him might put them on par with Dinosaurus. That is, only is Dinosaurus still can't slash or bite Invincible, but simply punch hard enough to draw some blood. We'll have to wait and see, especially is the show forgoes Allen's holding back line like they did in the Immortal scene.

They didn't Mark bleed in S3E3, if that's what you're referring to. S2E1 (when they bloodied Mark) took place 1 month after S1E8, 3 months before S2E2 (which had Mark no-sell Darkwing II, who could give them physical trouble at least a bit in S3E3), 5ish months before S2E4, 7ish months before S2E5 and (assuming E5-8 had no longer than a gap between them) 10 months before S3E1. There was likely also a tiny bit of time between S3E1-3, so that's more to add on. Don't see how they'd scale close at all. Maulers are about equal to a holding back Immortal, and FP Immortal was negged by Mark by S2E5/6 (stronger, faster statement). And I certainly hope you won't think Dinosaurus can be gored by the current version of Oliver.

 

[Tahoy49574]

Is the GDA upgrading from single teleportatition to Portal Creation ever addressed ?

 

[Reyne]

They didn't Mark bleed in S3E3, if that's what you're referring to. S2E1 (when they bloodied Mark) took place 1 month after S1E8, 3 months before S2E2 (which had Mark no-sell Darkwing II, who could give them physical trouble at least a bit in S3E3), 5ish months before S2E4, 7ish months before S2E5 and (assuming E5-8 had no longer than a gap between them) 10 months before S3E1. There was likely also a tiny bit of time between S3E1-3, so that's more to add on. Don't see how they'd scale close at all. Maulers are about equal to a holding back Immortal, and FP Immortal was negged by Mark by S2E5/6 (stronger, faster statement). And I certainly hope you won't think Dinosaurus can be gored by the current version of Oliver.

I was in fact referring to S2Ep1. Like I've said before, Mark could handle them there, and yet they could temporarily retraining in S3Ep3, which should not be even remotely possible. They also TKOed Immortal in one hit, which would be weirdly consistent with a power jump for themselves, but then Oliver does his thing. As we have surmised, the scaling is wonky. Oliver couldn't break Mark's grip, which is the scaling we would expect and is likely intended as a whole. I myself am hesitant about the whole teen Oliver upscaling that took place, so no, I don't think kid Oliver could fodderize Dinosaurus.

I love that they kept the bit where Mark says he can't move as fast when holding back, but boy does everyone seem slower than usual. If Mark wasn't going to get distracted like in the comic, I would've liked to see some casual blitzing in this more serious situation (nuke > Declaration of Independence).

 

[Tahoy49574]

I myself am hesitant about the whole teen Oliver upscaling that took place

The upscaling was based on his performance on the Viltrumite War and statements , at worst he downscales a bit. There'd be no point of bringing him along if he couldn't feasibly keep up with them and by proxy Mark wouldn't agree they'd "be screwed" if Thragg created an army of Tier 6s while he is Tier 5 lol

I guess we can give Oliver a "Kid Omni-Man" key to make that distinction, but until the High 6-C calc itself isn't looked into I wouldn't really push for it

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

I lost all hope of power consistency in season two when the mauler twins started beating the shit out of invincible. Hard to take the threat of a viltrimite invasion seriously if an army of maulers can just bash in the skull of any viltrimite that decides to try and attack the planet. Also how do they nearly kill invincible yet an explosion that vaporizes them does nothing to mark? That's honestly my biggest peeve with this show.

Invincible as a whole, comics and show, treats everyone like glass cannons. Anyone who's around the same tier can literally gore and rip each other in half given proper positioning and that just leads to weaker characters being able to harm stronger ones for whatever reason. Only way this doesn't happen is if you're a whole level above whoever you're fighting (ie with like Thragg/Battle Beast vs pretty much everyone else). Really stupid but eh

 

[Reyne]

The upscaling was based on his performance on the Viltrumite War and statements , at worst he downscales a bit. There'd be no point of bringing him along if he couldn't feasibly keep up with them and by proxy Mark wouldn't agree they'd "be screwed" if Thragg created an army of Tier 6s while he is Tier 5 lol

I guess we can give Oliver a "Kid Omni-Man" key to make that distinction, but until the High 6-C calc itself isn't looked into I wouldn't really push for it

The army was more so a threat to the Coalition than to the heavy hitters. They were explicit fodder, but there were simply too many of them to make any real progress, and as seen with Eve, to protect the more vulnerable allies.

But yeah, that's another matter for a different thread.

 

[Tahoy49574]

But yeah, that's another matter for a different thread.

I'd rather that be discussed right away, I'm doing another CRT , also that statement was made prior to the time skip and the way the dialogue is done presents it as they themselves would also fall in the fight, as opposed to their enemies falling appart the moment they get punched

 

[Tahoy49574]

Invincible as a whole, comics and show, treats everyone like glass cannons. Anyone who's around the same tier can literally gore and rip each other in half given proper positioning and that just leads to weaker characters being able to harm stronger ones for whatever reason. Only way this doesn't happen is if you're a whole level above whoever you're fighting (ie with like Thragg/Battle Beast vs pretty much everyone else). Really stupid but eh

Calc mod, please take a look at this :"

 

[Tahoy49574]

Also, the scaling is undeniably wonkier in the show

 

[Alexander]

Also, the scaling is undeniably wonkier in the show

from Omni man being able to stop a meteor the size of texas, to mark bench pressing the moon

 

[ReturnofKhadz]

I was in fact referring to S2Ep1.

Yeah so no scaling there.

Like I've said before, Mark could handle them there, and yet they could temporarily retraining in S3Ep3, which should not be even remotely possible.

It wouldn't be if Mark didn't just get hit by the paralyser gun, which clearly took effect in some way. He's also blatantly holding back, otherwise he'd fly through them easier than Oliver did. I'd say holding back to a certain level, as not kill them by accident and also not get ragdolled 10 times outta 10, when fighting would actually take a similar amount of concentration and effort than just exerting (close to) full strength. It's like balancing. It probably doesn't work linearly for Viltrumites - like I don't think they'd be hard pressed in lowering themselves down enough to tap on a table like a person or sth, they could probably use the same perceived effort in doing that. It likely gets harder when exerting levels of super strength that are still strong, but nowhere near their upper limits. In cases like these, the handbook statement works well.

They also TKOed Immortal in one hit, which would be weirdly consistent with a power jump for themselves, but then Oliver does his thing. As we have surmised, the scaling is wonky. Oliver couldn't break Mark's grip, which is the scaling we would expect and is likely intended as a whole. I myself am hesitant about the whole teen Oliver upscaling that took place, so no, I don't think kid Oliver could fodderize Dinosaurus.

I think it sort of makes sense, if you consider Immortal being a smidge above S2E1 Mark in strength/maybe durability (if we equate S2 opening versions to main, which I think is fine).

I love that they kept the bit where Mark says he can't move as fast when holding back, but boy does everyone seem slower than usual. If Mark wasn't going to get distracted like in the comic, I would've liked to see some casual blitzing in this more serious situation (nuke > Declaration of Independence).

Seems Mark only ever utilises super-speed in the most serious occasions, like against Reanimen once the frequency was blocked. Even then, he seemed to use it sparingly. Maybe usage of powers in these ways count as "skill" for Viltrumites. Like, instead martial art fighting style bs, skill could be referring to raw competence in using abilities like super-speed (specifically accelerated perception). It may take actual skill to utilise this more often, and could separate 2 Viltrumites with identical stats, including speed itself. We honestly don't know the nuances of having biology like this. We know these guys can f..k humans, feel, not crush them. A blanket assumption would be they shouldn't at all detect any nerve feeling from stuff this weak in proportion to them, no? But they do, and they'd probably feel a human's punch too in this case. Maybe they'd actually feel slight pain from a city level attack, but feel equal amount of minor pain from a country-busting attack. Who knows? Same would go for super-speed - using speed is like exerting a muslce; and no one knows how it'd feel like to "turn on" super-speed perception, since they don't have Red Rush-type 24/7 super-speed. Went off on a bit of tangent there, but eh. Very curious.

 

[ReturnofKhadz]

Invincible as a whole, comics and show, treats everyone like glass cannons. Anyone who's around the same tier can literally gore and rip each other in half given proper positioning and that just leads to weaker characters being able to harm stronger ones for whatever reason. Only way this doesn't happen is if you're a whole level above whoever you're fighting (ie with like Thragg/Battle Beast vs pretty much everyone else). Really stupid but eh

I agree w/ everything but the rip in half part. Only Thragg's done that to others. You won't see Viltrumite stat peers do something that drastic. Viltrumites in the purging were weak as shit compared to the ones who survived - the handbook refers to the ones who survived as literal superhumans in relation to the standard population/fodder half who died, so the way normal humans and some superhumans in fiction interact; this why this is the only other circumstance where you'd see the Viltrumite bisecting ish.

 

[Gitagon]

Strength seems to be >>> durability for most characters in this series.

 

[Tahoy49574]

Strength seems to be >>> durability for most characters in this series.

I really hate this train of thought. What does it even mean ? Their hands and legs are more durable than the rest of the body ? They'd injure themselves every time they punch if that was the case. There's no more science to it other than they can get away with gore

 

[ReturnofKhadz]

Strength seems to be >>> durability for most characters in this series.

Except maybe Thragg/BB. These guys took days until one actually gored the other. And said goring started from a large open self-inflicted wound made before the fight.

 

[ReturnofKhadz]

I really hate this train of thought. What does it even mean ? Their hands and legs are more durable than the rest of the body ? They'd injure themselves every time they punch if that was the case. There's no more science to it other than they can get away with gore

Their torso area probably is just a little weaker than their arms/legs. No biggie.

 

[Reyne]

Yeah so no scaling there.

It wouldn't be if Mark didn't just get hit by the paralyser gun, which clearly took effect in some way. He's also blatantly holding back, otherwise he'd fly through them easier than Oliver did. I'd say holding back to a certain level, as not kill them by accident and also not get ragdolled 10 times outta 10, when fighting would actually take a similar amount of concentration and effort than just exerting (close to) full strength. It's like balancing. It probably doesn't work linearly for Viltrumites - like I don't think they'd be hard pressed in lowering themselves down enough to tap on a table like a person or sth, they could probably use the same perceived effort in doing that. It likely gets harder when exerting levels of super strength that are still strong, but nowhere near their upper limits. In cases like these, the handbook statement works well.


I think it sort of makes sense, if you consider Immortal being a smidge above S2E1 Mark in strength/maybe durability (if we equate S2 opening versions to main, which I think is fine).


Seems Mark only ever utilises super-speed in the most serious occasions, like against Reanimen once the frequency was blocked. Even then, he seemed to use it sparingly. Maybe usage of powers in these ways count as "skill" for Viltrumites. Like, instead martial art fighting style bs, skill could be referring to raw competence in using abilities like super-speed (specifically accelerated perception). It may take actual skill to utilise this more often, and could separate 2 Viltrumites with identical stats, including speed itself. We honestly don't know the nuances of having biology like this. We know these guys can f..k humans, feel, not crush them. A blanket assumption would be they shouldn't at all detect any nerve feeling from stuff this weak in proportion to them, no? But they do, and they'd probably feel a human's punch too in this case. Maybe they'd actually feel slight pain from a city level attack, but feel equal amount of minor pain from a country-busting attack. Who knows? Same would go for super-speed - using speed is like exerting a muslce; and no one knows how it'd feel like to "turn on" super-speed perception, since they don't have Red Rush-type 24/7 super-speed. Went off on a bit of tangent there, but eh. Very curious.

It's a very convenient excuse to say that feeling is effectively the same from base human to touch up until their respective tier of durability of reach. It's a thought that has crossed my mind when thinking about fictional characters and how they interact with the world. How strong characters reach to weaker characters vary from verse to verse and medium to medium. Invincible has a lot of moments where the top tiers shrug off bottom tiers, and a few for tops vs mids, though it obviously wasn't perfect. The show really screwed the pooch with Battle Beast getting burned by a Robot drones ultimate move (Mark says the 2.0s can harm them, but even the Thragg buster thing didn't do shit) and Monster Girl literally putting him on the back foot for a literal second. He poned Invincible, Bulletproof, and Samson off panel, so there was notm issue before. I can mostly excuse Mark not simply flying out of the Mauler's grip and through the wall, but grunting is one of those factors that makes determining harm a bit hairy. Anissa, for instance grimaced when Mark punched her, but didn't make a sound (she might have made a sound as she dodged the follow ups, but that's an audio quirk). Mark grimaced when he blocked a Reanimen punch in the white room, but he didn't grunt (that fight was so slow and boring).

Honestly, what's the point of my saying any of this. Nolan got dogged on by some Gen 2 Reanimen. Inconsistencies can be so annoying, especially in power scaling. It would help if the writing was better, but I'm still on the comic > show train.

 

[ReturnofKhadz]

(Mark says the 2.0s can harm them, but even the Thragg buster thing didn't do shit) and Monster Girl literally putting him on the back foot for a literal second. He poned Invincible, Bulletproof, and Samson off panel, so there was notm issue before

Monster Girl was also tearing apart 2.0 drones which Viltrumite War level Mark couldn't one-shot, even when in space. Not only that, but we know Monster girl's monster form strength is inversely proportional to her appeared age (handbook + Kirkman). Kirkman said older-looking Amanda near the end of her story had a monster form which should've looked around the size of a large bodybuilder, but it wasn't conveyed properly. With this in mind, it'd mean Beginning of series Monster girl>>End of series Monster girl~EoS pre-500 year Mark (drones bled his mouth in the final arc)>Viltrumite War Mark, Nolan, etc. Comic has plenty of iffy scaling moments. Unless you wanna buy Monster girl is small planetary off the bat and gaps 90% of Viltrumites.

. I can mostly excuse Mark not simply flying out of the Mauler's grip and through the wall, but grunting is one of those factors that makes determining harm a bit hairy.

I honestly don't see any indication of pain anywhere there. Usually blood is an indicator of even the slightest bit of damage, but discounting that it mostly just seems like Mark struggling to immediately break the Mauler's grip - he was still feeling relatively groggy from the paralyser gun so it seemed like his muscles were numb and unexertive in those moments. I also think that was the reason why he dozed off after the nuke (despite no physical damage being received) and partially why he initally struggled to keep up with Oliver, despite it being established earlier that he's MUCH faster.

Anissa, for instance grimaced when Mark punched her, but didn't make a sound (she might have made a sound as she dodged the follow ups, but that's an audio quirk). Mark grimaced when he blocked a Reanimen punch in the white room, but he didn't grunt (that fight was so slow and boring).

Tbh, Steven Yeun is a fairly expressive VA. He makes sounds for Mark, that'd be interpreted as struggle, on occasions where he's doing the most mundane activity. Example off the top of my head is when Mark play-fights the headlamp thingy on the Atlantis monster's head, thinking it was the tiny fish he was supposed to face in trial-by-combat. It was jokingly, but he made it sound like somewhat of a struggle when he hugged it. This is only 1 minor example - I got that from Yeun a lot. His expressiveness is what makes him such a good VA. Simmons sometimes does similar stuff, but more of a roar type noise. Most recently made a similar type of noise in the S3 flashback.

Nolan got dogged on by some Gen 2 Reanimen. Inconsistencies can be so annoying, especially in power scaling. It would help if the writing was better, but I'm still on the comic > show train.

This is one part I don't find inconsistent at all. I've seen a lot of people mention it already. Nolan didn't get "dogged on". He was bombarded with a bunch after already getting slowed by a ton of shit, like the orbital laser, which at least hurt him. After he locked in he pretty much just tore them apart with the same ease Mark did. No physical damage inflicted on him - they couldn't even make him bleed after biting his noise and his skin and actually pulling out with the bite. A barrage of punches from those things made some pretty hefty bruises on Mark's back. I wouldn't say minor discrepancies in some fights relative to others is a genuine claim to "weak writing" or counted as an instance of one. The writing in the show for what matters is great, and minor power level shit is passable. Viltrumites above all will always be kept at least somewhat consistent.

 

[Phoenks]

Mark in the beginning of S3: Almost gets every superhero killed because he can't beat some earth worms.

Reanimen come in and stomp the **** out of them.

Mark immediate after then just runs through armies of the things?

Like is Mark just purposefully holding back to the point that he risks getting everyone killed constantly?

I hate the scaling of this show it's so bad it is actually a negative.

 

[Tahoy49574]

Like is Mark just purposefully holding back to the point that he risks getting everyone killed constantly?

If the way they screw over the Thraxa arc is anything to go by, yes

 

[Phoenks]

Bro is stupid

 

[Reyne]

Monster Girl was also tearing apart 2.0 drones which Viltrumite War level Mark couldn't one-shot, even when in space. Not only that, but we know Monster girl's monster form strength is inversely proportional to her appeared age (handbook + Kirkman). Kirkman said older-looking Amanda near the end of her story had a monster form which should've looked around the size of a large bodybuilder, but it wasn't conveyed properly. With this in mind, it'd mean Beginning of series Monster girl>>End of series Monster girl~EoS pre-500 year Mark (drones bled his mouth in the final arc)>Viltrumite War Mark, Nolan, etc. Comic has plenty of iffy scaling moments. Unless you wanna buy Monster girl is small planetary off the bat and gaps 90% of Viltrumites.

I honestly don't see any indication of pain anywhere there. Usually blood is an indicator of even the slightest bit of damage, but discounting that it mostly just seems like Mark struggling to immediately break the Mauler's grip - he was still feeling relatively groggy from the paralyser gun so it seemed like his muscles were numb and unexertive in those moments. I also think that was the reason why he dozed off after the nuke (despite no physical damage being received) and partially why he initally struggled to keep up with Oliver, despite it being established earlier that he's MUCH faster.

Tbh, Steven Yeun is a fairly expressive VA. He makes sounds for Mark, that'd be interpreted as struggle, on occasions where he's doing the most mundane activity. Example off the top of my head is when Mark play-fights the headlamp thingy on the Atlantis monster's head, thinking it was the tiny fish he was supposed to face in trial-by-combat. It was jokingly, but he made it sound like somewhat of a struggle when he hugged it. This is only 1 minor example - I got that from Yeun a lot. His expressiveness is what makes him such a good VA. Simmons sometimes does similar stuff, but more of a roar type noise. Most recently made a similar type of noise in the S3 flashback.


This is one part I don't find inconsistent at all. I've seen a lot of people mention it already. Nolan didn't get "dogged on". He was bombarded with a bunch after already getting slowed by a ton of shit, like the orbital laser, which at least hurt him. After he locked in he pretty much just tore them apart with the same ease Mark did. No physical damage inflicted on him - they couldn't even make him bleed after biting his noise and his skin and actually pulling out with the bite. A barrage of punches from those things made some pretty hefty bruises on Mark's back. I wouldn't say minor discrepancies in some fights relative to others is a genuine claim to "weak writing" or counted as an instance of one. The writing in the show for what matters is great, and minor power level shit is passable. Viltrumites above all will always be kept at least somewhat consistent.

Aside from Brit's son in a single boot, Monster Girl was the only one shown on panel destroying the volcanic drones. It reads good for Monster Girl, but we know Brit has fodder AP and no one else does in the final battle. Mark said not to hit the drones too hard, as if they weren't deadly enough that there'd be no other option. Everyone and their kids were there, including Immortal's kids, who were seen flying away with one of them. Mark being hit hard enough to bleed from the mouth (seriously, bled gums aren't much better than nose bleeds), it would be because he was pinned from the vibrations and being wailed on.

That's fair. I wrote it off because he could barely stand, and then he acted fine, but there was very little time in between to say for certain.

Nolan was very much struggling with those things, or as I said, was being dogged on (the cape wrap was something else). It took him a minute to get his bearings during that beatdown. Mark, who is still weaker than his father, just got done getting beat up by the core insects and still fodderized better Reanimen. That's some strong inconsistency I don't agree can be explained away by the nose bleed cannon.

 

[Reyne]

Mark in the beginning of S3: Almost gets every superhero killed because he can't beat some earth worms.

Reanimen come in and stomp the **** out of them.

Mark immediate after then just runs through armies of the things?

Like is Mark just purposefully holding back to the point that he risks getting everyone killed constantly?

I hate the scaling of this show it's so bad it is actually a negative.

Granted, it was the centipedes that were unbeatable, and they only left after Seismic was captured.