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It's not his though. He's not moving, he's being thrown. It's not "his speed", it's the "speed he's being thrown at". Similar to how guns don't have their bullet speed equalized to movement speed in speed equal.
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Invincible Hero vs God of War! REDUX!
- Thread starter Firephoenixearl
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Then what speed is it?
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Oh btw Hl3, something to note. This is speed uequal.
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@Amlad
The superiority is just headcanon. Neither of us have numbers of how big "1 shot" or "stronger" is. Just leave it at "comparable".
No, it just looks like a speed amp and it's described to be "not a speed amp". Also i love how you say "he lost the eye so he couldn't use it" like that doesn't just reinforce the point of "it's not speed amp, just a wider view". As for "he'll be on the defense", how can you be on the defense against a dude you can't guard against?
No. He can make only parts of his body tangible while the rest is intangible. He can just make the surface of his fist tangible the moment it hits Doppo. Mirio's selling point is choosing what part becomes tangible and what becomes intangible. Hard to land a hit on someone like that.
You can't parry mirio. It's impossible. Check the 2nd link i sent above, to see why.
Nah, doppos Analytical Prediction says what he'll use, not when a dude exists physically or not. There's a major difference. About the "sensing the movements of the air" no. The feat you showed is just him having a good sense of smell mostly and noticing how people walk irregularly, not sensed the movement of the air, not to mention, Mirio usually only becomes tangible the moment he's about to land a hit, not the whole way through, so that's not gonna work either way.
The superiority is just headcanon. Neither of us have numbers of how big "1 shot" or "stronger" is. Just leave it at "comparable".
No, it just looks like a speed amp and it's described to be "not a speed amp". Also i love how you say "he lost the eye so he couldn't use it" like that doesn't just reinforce the point of "it's not speed amp, just a wider view". As for "he'll be on the defense", how can you be on the defense against a dude you can't guard against?
No. He can make only parts of his body tangible while the rest is intangible. He can just make the surface of his fist tangible the moment it hits Doppo. Mirio's selling point is choosing what part becomes tangible and what becomes intangible. Hard to land a hit on someone like that.
You can't parry mirio. It's impossible. Check the 2nd link i sent above, to see why.
Nah, doppos Analytical Prediction says what he'll use, not when a dude exists physically or not. There's a major difference. About the "sensing the movements of the air" no. The feat you showed is just him having a good sense of smell mostly and noticing how people walk irregularly, not sensed the movement of the air, not to mention, Mirio usually only becomes tangible the moment he's about to land a hit, not the whole way through, so that's not gonna work either way.
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5.7 > 4. It's just numbers no head canon. Nobody is going to be one shotting the other but Doppo scales to a slightly higher level of power.
Listen if you wanna make a full CRT on Sangan not being a speed amp go ahead. There's loads of proof for why it is though and it's currently accepted as such for it.
Hard but not impossible. Also he'll need to make a lot more of his body tangible if he wants to inflict any real damage on Doppo. Simply attacking with your knuckles will massively reduce the damage output and only give Doppo more time to figure out everything about Mirio.
You can't say it's impossible to parry him based solely on that fight. Mirio showed why it's extremely hard to parry him, but against someone like Doppo, he won't be able to repeat the same trick forever. Again, Doppo can both dodge and parry when needed.
I mean you already disproved yourself with what you said on this one. It's true that Doppo predicts what his opponent will do. That includes what parts of Mirio will be tangible. Simple as that. Combining that with his enhanced senses is what will help him.
Listen if you wanna make a full CRT on Sangan not being a speed amp go ahead. There's loads of proof for why it is though and it's currently accepted as such for it.
Hard but not impossible. Also he'll need to make a lot more of his body tangible if he wants to inflict any real damage on Doppo. Simply attacking with your knuckles will massively reduce the damage output and only give Doppo more time to figure out everything about Mirio.
You can't say it's impossible to parry him based solely on that fight. Mirio showed why it's extremely hard to parry him, but against someone like Doppo, he won't be able to repeat the same trick forever. Again, Doppo can both dodge and parry when needed.
I mean you already disproved yourself with what you said on this one. It's true that Doppo predicts what his opponent will do. That includes what parts of Mirio will be tangible. Simple as that. Combining that with his enhanced senses is what will help him.
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@Amlad
Except it's not. Those are the start of the scaling, not the end. Mirio scales from a 1 shot, what does Orochi scale from.
I was gonna do that but prom was onto the CRT making...which she never did. So i guess it'll be on the list.
It does not reduce the damage output, it's the same. If you're implying that mass changes so the AP will change too, don't. He basically uses just the surface of his foot and sends dudes flying.
On 2 fights, but it's the same thing. Doppo can't parry or block mirio as Mirio will just phase through anything he puts in his way.
He predicts moves, not which parts are physical and which are not. It's not the same thing. You'd need something in the realm of mind reading to reach this not simple battle prediction. And none of his senses help notice whether things are physically present. Then again it doesn't help as he still can't do anything about it. Even if he knows his fist is tangible unless he can blitz his thoughts (which even if we assume Sangan as a speed amp still isn't enough to achieve that), he can't do anything with that info.
Except it's not. Those are the start of the scaling, not the end. Mirio scales from a 1 shot, what does Orochi scale from.
I was gonna do that but prom was onto the CRT making...which she never did. So i guess it'll be on the list.
It does not reduce the damage output, it's the same. If you're implying that mass changes so the AP will change too, don't. He basically uses just the surface of his foot and sends dudes flying.
On 2 fights, but it's the same thing. Doppo can't parry or block mirio as Mirio will just phase through anything he puts in his way.
He predicts moves, not which parts are physical and which are not. It's not the same thing. You'd need something in the realm of mind reading to reach this not simple battle prediction. And none of his senses help notice whether things are physically present. Then again it doesn't help as he still can't do anything about it. Even if he knows his fist is tangible unless he can blitz his thoughts (which even if we assume Sangan as a speed amp still isn't enough to achieve that), he can't do anything with that info.
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This was a great match, but I've gotta ask: why isn't this just a repeat of the last thread?
Mirio beats up Doppo fairly well, Doppo uses his Info Analysis and Analytical Prediction to figure out Mirio's attack patterns, style of fighting, and timing, Doppo tries a few parries and blocks, likely failing, Doppo uses process of elimination and timing to dodge Mirio's strike and Seiken whatever Mirio is trying to hit him with, rinse and repeat.
Mirio beats up Doppo fairly well, Doppo uses his Info Analysis and Analytical Prediction to figure out Mirio's attack patterns, style of fighting, and timing, Doppo tries a few parries and blocks, likely failing, Doppo uses process of elimination and timing to dodge Mirio's strike and Seiken whatever Mirio is trying to hit him with, rinse and repeat.
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So basically nothing changes at all except we have earl saying he's hear to somehow prove that Mirio wins this?
Just close the thread
Just close the thread
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I mean, I dunno for sure, but even Overhaul was able to outmaneuver Mirio's phasing through several surfaces. Doppo isn't likely to get hit by something like that as his analytical prediction is massively better than anything Overhaul is capable of. It's literally just a matter of timing and patience
Edit: 0:50 to ~1:20
https://youtu.be/LEoDK_LqueY
Edit: 0:50 to ~1:20
https://youtu.be/LEoDK_LqueY
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Figuring out the timing is really not gonna make you land a hit on him. If he sees you coming for a hit, he just makes that part intangible and hits you square in the face back.
Besides the Overhaul case, not only is overhaul >>>> Doppo (by virtue of his deconstruction and reconstruction ability since he can change the entire room into spikes), but overhaul never managed to land a hit on Mirio.
Besides the Overhaul case, not only is overhaul >>>> Doppo (by virtue of his deconstruction and reconstruction ability since he can change the entire room into spikes), but overhaul never managed to land a hit on Mirio.
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Well that's actually... the whole point of timing. If Mirio is going for a hit that Doppo has far and low predicted from a mile away, all Doppo has to do is time the hit for the last second to the point that neither of them could react in time and boom. Hit landed.
The Overhaul case was not to say he could land a hit, it was an example of Overhaul predicting Mirio's movements and dodging. That's even what I said almost verbatim in the last post. In terms of Analytical Prediction, Doppo >>>>>> Overhaul.
The Overhaul case was not to say he could land a hit, it was an example of Overhaul predicting Mirio's movements and dodging. That's even what I said almost verbatim in the last post. In terms of Analytical Prediction, Doppo >>>>>> Overhaul.
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He would have to be faster than Mirio's thought for that. To land a hit he would need to find a time when Mirio is tangible and hit fast enough to blitz Mirio's reaction (so that Mirio won't be able to make it go intangible). Otherwise Mirio will just go intangible and still punch Doppo square in the face.
Actually overhaul only predicted him once i believe, and that was when he went through the ground but that was an obvious case. Him dodging at 1:15 or so, is just him being fast enough to dodge, you can see him turning back, expecting mirio to be there, before realizing he's not there. And yes in terms of AP Doppo >>>> Overhaul, but Analytical Prediction doesn't always mean you can use it. Overhaul had better means of abusing what he had, he even used hostage attack because he was so desperate to land a hit on Mirio. If someone who practically room nukes to make spikes from all direction, couldn't land a hit despite using hostages to ensure he wouldn't dodge, i don't see a dude landing punches on him.
Actually overhaul only predicted him once i believe, and that was when he went through the ground but that was an obvious case. Him dodging at 1:15 or so, is just him being fast enough to dodge, you can see him turning back, expecting mirio to be there, before realizing he's not there. And yes in terms of AP Doppo >>>> Overhaul, but Analytical Prediction doesn't always mean you can use it. Overhaul had better means of abusing what he had, he even used hostage attack because he was so desperate to land a hit on Mirio. If someone who practically room nukes to make spikes from all direction, couldn't land a hit despite using hostages to ensure he wouldn't dodge, i don't see a dude landing punches on him.
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Well, not exactly, no. He doesn't need to outspeed Mirio's thoughts, just his reaction speed, which, considering their comparable speed, should be easy. If Mirio is moving to attack, assuming this is after a bit of Doppo trying and failing to counter or block, Doppo by then will have picked up on his attack pattern and be able to use his Analytical Prediction to its fullest extent, so he would gain insight as to where Mirio will be attacking from, where he intends to hit, and specifically when that hit will land. With this information, Doppo can easily start his counter at the exact moment in which contact would be made, allowing him to blitz both Mirio and himself, as it's not a matter of reacting, as he would've done that as soon as his Analytical Prediction kicked in, it's a matter of waiting and preparing for the golden moment. Take Kuroki Gensai vs Mikazuchi Rei for example. Gensai is completely blitzed by this guy, yet completely shuts down everything he can do. Why? Because he already knows where to place his body and when to counter.
https://imgur.com/a/17em4u9
The fact that a nobody in terms of Martial skill could predict him even once is a massive deciding fact against someone like Orochi. And no, just because Overhaul can throw hundreds of spikes at once has 0 barring on Doppo's chances. Overhaul is literally being a moron and trying to hit Mirio all over when Mirio can just Permeate like he has been doing over and over. With Analytical Prediction, the timing is so precise, Mirio cannot react, completely nullifying the one thing stopping Overhaul from making him Swiss cheese: Permeate
https://imgur.com/a/17em4u9
The fact that a nobody in terms of Martial skill could predict him even once is a massive deciding fact against someone like Orochi. And no, just because Overhaul can throw hundreds of spikes at once has 0 barring on Doppo's chances. Overhaul is literally being a moron and trying to hit Mirio all over when Mirio can just Permeate like he has been doing over and over. With Analytical Prediction, the timing is so precise, Mirio cannot react, completely nullifying the one thing stopping Overhaul from making him Swiss cheese: Permeate
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Being comparable in speed makes it impossible to blitz the thoughts. The speed at which you move your hand isn't gonna outpace the speed at which my brain processes stuff. Reaction speed >> movement speed. About the case of starting the counter while knowing where Mirio is gonna land his attack. You still missed the point. Only Mirio's hit will connect. Doppo will go for the counter to attack Mirio, who will be intangible, whereas mirio will attack with his tangible point in his fist which will hit Doppo. And the example is just dealing with speed advantage, which everyone skilled enough does, overhaul himself did this, but that is not the same as lacking the ability to hit your opponent at all. It just becomes 1 sided because only Mirio can hit him, whereas Doppo can't, it's a completely different scenario here.
Analytical Prediction doesn't make you so that your opponent can't make a thought before you attack (since all he needs is a thought to go intangible to render the attack useless). It doesn't work like that, Analytical Prediction cannot produce such effects, it makes it possible to deal with faster opponents, but cannot be used to blitz.
Analytical Prediction doesn't make you so that your opponent can't make a thought before you attack (since all he needs is a thought to go intangible to render the attack useless). It doesn't work like that, Analytical Prediction cannot produce such effects, it makes it possible to deal with faster opponents, but cannot be used to blitz.
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If we're talking in terms of reaction speed, as I said, Doppo is reacting to Mirio's actions practically before they happen, so he wins out massively there. At the very least, Mirio is never going to hit him beyond the point that Doppo's Analytical Prediction peaks out, and Doppo could always do what he did to Ali Jr and burst Mirio's knuckles any and every time he tries to hit Doppo in the face. That not what I'm saying in terms of the counter. Doppo's counter will come before Mirio can hit, since Doppo literally knows everything about the attack before it's even initiated, all he's waiting for is a moment where he can catch Mirio off guard or outspeed his reaction or even come from a blind spot and Seiken whatever is tangible. Hell, he could even throw the punch through Mirio's own arm and fist and destroy his knuckles since Mirio attacks by only making his knuckles tangible (same with leg and the sole of his foot for a kick). The same rule applies here, just trade outspeeding with tangibility. Both are problems solved with timing, since there is a window of time in which Mirio needs to be tangible even if it's just a small fraction of his body or he wouldn't be able to make physical contact. All Doppo has to do is time his strike to Seiken Mirio's fist or foot and he'd smash his knuckle(s) or foot pad. Mirio will never be able to touch Doppo once Doppo realizes there are no benefits to blocking or parrying and that letting himself get hit won't create an opening. If this becomes a battle of endurance as to Doppo dodging and Mirio attacking, Mirio is just going to flat out lose.
With precise enough movement, that's exactly what it can be used for. For example, we have Rei "clearly outmatching" Gensai in speed, yet Gensai is able to tag him due to prediction and timing. Same idea here. Be it taking advantage that Mirio's body is intangible but not invisible, allowing Doppo to strike toward himself to burst Mirio's knuckles upon impact, cloaked by Mirio's own body, or be it baiting Mirio with a block or punch only to use the technique he did against Ali Jr and burst his knuckles, Doppo is way more likely to hit Mirio then Mirio hit Doppo.
https://m.imgur.com/a/nU97JHH
With precise enough movement, that's exactly what it can be used for. For example, we have Rei "clearly outmatching" Gensai in speed, yet Gensai is able to tag him due to prediction and timing. Same idea here. Be it taking advantage that Mirio's body is intangible but not invisible, allowing Doppo to strike toward himself to burst Mirio's knuckles upon impact, cloaked by Mirio's own body, or be it baiting Mirio with a block or punch only to use the technique he did against Ali Jr and burst his knuckles, Doppo is way more likely to hit Mirio then Mirio hit Doppo.
https://m.imgur.com/a/nU97JHH
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Yeah, pretty sure it goes like the other time. Orochi fra.
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If I hadn't made it clear, I'm also voting Doppo, and based on what @Soda said before, it's likely he is too
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If we're talking in terms of reaction speed, as I said, Doppo is reacting to Mirio's actions practically before they happen, so he wins out massively there.
Technically yes, but he still cannot stop Mirio's attacks. They cannot be blocked or parried.
At the very least, Mirio is never going to hit him beyond the point that Doppo's Analytical Prediction peaks out, and Doppo could always do what he did to Ali Jr and burst Mirio's knuckles any and every time he tries to hit Doppo in the face.
Going to hardly be the case, he would have to dodge each attack, which is excessively difficult in speed equal. And again, he cannot use any form of deflection or parry, he would have to purely dodge, which again, Analytical Prediction or not, is gonna be excessively hard especially for someone who's not very reliant on dodging in the first place.
Doppo's counter will come before Mirio can hit, since Doppo literally knows everything about the attack before it's even initiated, all he's waiting for is a moment where he can catch Mirio off guard or outspeed his Reaction
Catching Mirio off guard is gonna happen, but he can't abuse it due to intangibility. This is not a pure martial arts fight where "catching off guard" can happen. Catching off guard exists because the opponent may be in a situation or position where he is taken by surprise and therefore is unable to make enough movement to block or dodge, so he's gonna get hit either way. It's not about blitzing reaction and again, you cannot blitz with speed equal, analytical prediction or not. Analytical Prediction makes you deal with faster opponent, but it doesn't make your opponent suddenly not be able to proces you moving fast enough. Again thought speed >>>>>>>> movement speed, it just won't happen. You can use Analytical Prediction in a martial arts where as i said the opponent needs movement to deal with your attacks, not against someone who only needs to think to no sell anything you can do.
or even come from a blind spot and Seiken whatever is tangible
Blind spot attacks don't work on Mirio. 0:55 And seiken is useless in this match (due to as i said, thought speed isn't gonna get blitzed no matter how you spin it).
Hell, he could even throw the punch through Mirio's own arm and fist and destroy his knuckles since Mirio attacks by only making his knuckles tangible (same with leg and the sole of his foot for a kick).
Won't work, Mirio will make his knuckless intangible up to the very moment it's gonna connect with his opponent's face. 2:31 (deku tried the exact same thing you're proposing, predict his position and attack through his body, still got owned). And 1:16 his foot was still inside the girl's head while he kicked the hell out of the dude (so no matter what kind of obstacle you try to put he'll just phase through it and still hit you even if it's that close).
The same rule applies here, just trade outspeeding with tangibility.
Same as the other points, Doppo ain't outspeeding thoughts.
Both are problems solved with timing, since there is a window of time in which Mirio needs to be tangible even if it's just a small fraction of his body or he wouldn't be able to make physical contact.
Nope, there is no such window, he only becomes tangible when his attacks are about to connect, and it's not his whole body, only the surface that's gonna hit (the example above at 1:16 and) 2:28. So yes he does make physical contact while still being intangible.
All Dopp has to do is time his strike to Seiken Mirio's fist or foot and he'd smash his knuckle(s) or foot pad.
Same as i've said before timing can allow you to get a form of head start, but can never blitz thoughts.
For example, we have Rei "clearly outmatching" Gensai in speed, yet Gensai is able to tag him due to prediction and timing.
As i said this is false equivalency. What he's doing is getting that head start so that Rei is unable to "dodge in time" (unable to make enough movement), but he is not blitzing his thoughts. It completely goes against what Analytical Prediction is or does.
Be it taking advantage that Mirio's body is intangible but not invisible, allowing Doppo to strike toward himself to burst Mirio's knuckles upon impact, cloaked by Mirio's own body, or be it baiting Mirio with a block or punch only to use the technique he did against Ali Jr and burst his knuckles
I showed you cases and explained why these won't work. They tried this, but intangibility is extremely hard to deal with It is basically a case of. "Only Mirio can land a hit" and as for dodging, don't be so sure, Doppo is not one who dodges much, his dodging skill wouldn't scale to his other skills.
Technically yes, but he still cannot stop Mirio's attacks. They cannot be blocked or parried.
At the very least, Mirio is never going to hit him beyond the point that Doppo's Analytical Prediction peaks out, and Doppo could always do what he did to Ali Jr and burst Mirio's knuckles any and every time he tries to hit Doppo in the face.
Going to hardly be the case, he would have to dodge each attack, which is excessively difficult in speed equal. And again, he cannot use any form of deflection or parry, he would have to purely dodge, which again, Analytical Prediction or not, is gonna be excessively hard especially for someone who's not very reliant on dodging in the first place.
Doppo's counter will come before Mirio can hit, since Doppo literally knows everything about the attack before it's even initiated, all he's waiting for is a moment where he can catch Mirio off guard or outspeed his Reaction
Catching Mirio off guard is gonna happen, but he can't abuse it due to intangibility. This is not a pure martial arts fight where "catching off guard" can happen. Catching off guard exists because the opponent may be in a situation or position where he is taken by surprise and therefore is unable to make enough movement to block or dodge, so he's gonna get hit either way. It's not about blitzing reaction and again, you cannot blitz with speed equal, analytical prediction or not. Analytical Prediction makes you deal with faster opponent, but it doesn't make your opponent suddenly not be able to proces you moving fast enough. Again thought speed >>>>>>>> movement speed, it just won't happen. You can use Analytical Prediction in a martial arts where as i said the opponent needs movement to deal with your attacks, not against someone who only needs to think to no sell anything you can do.
or even come from a blind spot and Seiken whatever is tangible
Blind spot attacks don't work on Mirio. 0:55 And seiken is useless in this match (due to as i said, thought speed isn't gonna get blitzed no matter how you spin it).
Hell, he could even throw the punch through Mirio's own arm and fist and destroy his knuckles since Mirio attacks by only making his knuckles tangible (same with leg and the sole of his foot for a kick).
Won't work, Mirio will make his knuckless intangible up to the very moment it's gonna connect with his opponent's face. 2:31 (deku tried the exact same thing you're proposing, predict his position and attack through his body, still got owned). And 1:16 his foot was still inside the girl's head while he kicked the hell out of the dude (so no matter what kind of obstacle you try to put he'll just phase through it and still hit you even if it's that close).
The same rule applies here, just trade outspeeding with tangibility.
Same as the other points, Doppo ain't outspeeding thoughts.
Both are problems solved with timing, since there is a window of time in which Mirio needs to be tangible even if it's just a small fraction of his body or he wouldn't be able to make physical contact.
Nope, there is no such window, he only becomes tangible when his attacks are about to connect, and it's not his whole body, only the surface that's gonna hit (the example above at 1:16 and) 2:28. So yes he does make physical contact while still being intangible.
All Dopp has to do is time his strike to Seiken Mirio's fist or foot and he'd smash his knuckle(s) or foot pad.
Same as i've said before timing can allow you to get a form of head start, but can never blitz thoughts.
For example, we have Rei "clearly outmatching" Gensai in speed, yet Gensai is able to tag him due to prediction and timing.
As i said this is false equivalency. What he's doing is getting that head start so that Rei is unable to "dodge in time" (unable to make enough movement), but he is not blitzing his thoughts. It completely goes against what Analytical Prediction is or does.
Be it taking advantage that Mirio's body is intangible but not invisible, allowing Doppo to strike toward himself to burst Mirio's knuckles upon impact, cloaked by Mirio's own body, or be it baiting Mirio with a block or punch only to use the technique he did against Ali Jr and burst his knuckles
I showed you cases and explained why these won't work. They tried this, but intangibility is extremely hard to deal with It is basically a case of. "Only Mirio can land a hit" and as for dodging, don't be so sure, Doppo is not one who dodges much, his dodging skill wouldn't scale to his other skills.
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I'm just going to cut to the chase, as I gotta hit the hay. I'll be back later though.
Doppo is going to be able to block, parry, and counter every single attack Mirio makes with his speed amp from Sangan (from being completely blitzed by Yujiro to parrying his individual strikes) and the acceleration amp from Hand Pocket (completely blitzed by Ali Jr. to blitzing Ali Jr. https://************.com/chapter/new_grappler_baki/chapter_246)
Actually, Analytical Prediction makes dodging even under a certain degree of speed disadvantage easy, as seen in my posts from Gensai v Rei. Under comparable speeds, Mirio just won't ever touch Doppo
Mirio literally can't see through himself, so Doppo can literally attack by striking toward himself from inside Mirio.
That was hardly a blind spot, we're talking about an attack he literally cannot see from a person predicting entire fights ahead of him
See, this is different, as Deku isn't a master martial artist with over 40 years of experience and insanely good analytical skill. The whole reason why what I'm preposing works is because Doppo knows every single time Mirio attacks when contact will be made before Mirio even moves. Quite a different set of circumstances
Hand Pocket+Sangan= blitz
"he only becomes tangible when his attacks are about to connect" This is literally the window of time that I just mentioned. His knuckles will be tangible as he makes physical contact, Doppo smashes Mirio's knuckles between his fist and his own face...
Sangan+Handpocket can blitz Mirio's reaction speed though
Thats not true, it even says in that very same fight that Gensai is positioning his body with perfect timing to counter the massive speed gap
Mirio will never land a hit, guaranteed. It sounds a little pompous, but we are honestly trying to say that 1) Doppo isn't a skilled dodger, which barely makes sense and 2) Doppo would have to even be remotely skilled in dodging despite knowing everything Mirio is going to do for the entire fight after fighting for a decent amount of time and with Sangan making his reaction speed considerably faster. Faster reaction plus full battle length prediction comes out to Mirio never landing a hit, even if Doppo had stubs for legs
Doppo is going to be able to block, parry, and counter every single attack Mirio makes with his speed amp from Sangan (from being completely blitzed by Yujiro to parrying his individual strikes) and the acceleration amp from Hand Pocket (completely blitzed by Ali Jr. to blitzing Ali Jr. https://************.com/chapter/new_grappler_baki/chapter_246)
Actually, Analytical Prediction makes dodging even under a certain degree of speed disadvantage easy, as seen in my posts from Gensai v Rei. Under comparable speeds, Mirio just won't ever touch Doppo
Mirio literally can't see through himself, so Doppo can literally attack by striking toward himself from inside Mirio.
That was hardly a blind spot, we're talking about an attack he literally cannot see from a person predicting entire fights ahead of him
See, this is different, as Deku isn't a master martial artist with over 40 years of experience and insanely good analytical skill. The whole reason why what I'm preposing works is because Doppo knows every single time Mirio attacks when contact will be made before Mirio even moves. Quite a different set of circumstances
Hand Pocket+Sangan= blitz
"he only becomes tangible when his attacks are about to connect" This is literally the window of time that I just mentioned. His knuckles will be tangible as he makes physical contact, Doppo smashes Mirio's knuckles between his fist and his own face...
Sangan+Handpocket can blitz Mirio's reaction speed though
Thats not true, it even says in that very same fight that Gensai is positioning his body with perfect timing to counter the massive speed gap
Mirio will never land a hit, guaranteed. It sounds a little pompous, but we are honestly trying to say that 1) Doppo isn't a skilled dodger, which barely makes sense and 2) Doppo would have to even be remotely skilled in dodging despite knowing everything Mirio is going to do for the entire fight after fighting for a decent amount of time and with Sangan making his reaction speed considerably faster. Faster reaction plus full battle length prediction comes out to Mirio never landing a hit, even if Doppo had stubs for legs
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>Going to be able to block parry ...
No, as i said, he'll phase through any defense.
Actually yes Analytical Prediction makes it possible, but not always. In the fight you showed for example he used a form of parry not pure dodge (used his hand). And it's only possible because the opponent cannot go for wide AoE strikes because they will be too slow and he'll just get parried or hit. Mirio does not have to worry about such things as he'll phase through anything.
He can doe, are you implying Doppo's arm is smaller than Mirio's? Besides as i showed, it does not work, cus even somehow assuming Mirio has a far thicker arm than Doppo, even if Mirio cannot see the fist itself he will see the attack start and go into his fist, he will see the arm that's going into it. Very flawed reasoning there, Doppo is a whole body construct, not a grain of sand that will hide inside people.
How is an attack to the back of the head not a blind spot? The back and top of someone's head are absolute blind spots, you cannot see there if you wanted to.
Experience means nothing in the face of phasing. It's not experience that is holding them back, it's the inablity to deal with phasing.
Neither of them were ever good enough to blitz thoughts. Not fast enough.
How is he gonna crush an intangible thing? Also that's kind of assuming Doppo is just gonna tank his punches like nothing's happening and crush it. They are comparable, a hit to the jaw is a knockout (because yes a jaw hit from a comparable opponent can KO).
Same as above, it can blitz his reaction (so cannot dodge), but not his though (so he'll still process the hit coming, he just won't be able to move away from it but he doesn't need to).
Yes he is positioning his body, but he's not blitzing thoughts. Right here you can see him hitting away his attack. But anyway this is Doppo not Gensai so let's not derail.
Doppo will get a damn good bunch of hits (3 at the very least), before he even realizes he cannot block. Doppo's analytical prediction isn't as quick to kick in. The Dorian case kicked in severely late into the fight. It's not precog, he needs info to work with. And no Doppo isn't really a skilled dodger, he never dodges.
No, as i said, he'll phase through any defense.
Actually yes Analytical Prediction makes it possible, but not always. In the fight you showed for example he used a form of parry not pure dodge (used his hand). And it's only possible because the opponent cannot go for wide AoE strikes because they will be too slow and he'll just get parried or hit. Mirio does not have to worry about such things as he'll phase through anything.
He can doe, are you implying Doppo's arm is smaller than Mirio's? Besides as i showed, it does not work, cus even somehow assuming Mirio has a far thicker arm than Doppo, even if Mirio cannot see the fist itself he will see the attack start and go into his fist, he will see the arm that's going into it. Very flawed reasoning there, Doppo is a whole body construct, not a grain of sand that will hide inside people.
How is an attack to the back of the head not a blind spot? The back and top of someone's head are absolute blind spots, you cannot see there if you wanted to.
Experience means nothing in the face of phasing. It's not experience that is holding them back, it's the inablity to deal with phasing.
Neither of them were ever good enough to blitz thoughts. Not fast enough.
How is he gonna crush an intangible thing? Also that's kind of assuming Doppo is just gonna tank his punches like nothing's happening and crush it. They are comparable, a hit to the jaw is a knockout (because yes a jaw hit from a comparable opponent can KO).
Same as above, it can blitz his reaction (so cannot dodge), but not his though (so he'll still process the hit coming, he just won't be able to move away from it but he doesn't need to).
Yes he is positioning his body, but he's not blitzing thoughts. Right here you can see him hitting away his attack. But anyway this is Doppo not Gensai so let's not derail.
Doppo will get a damn good bunch of hits (3 at the very least), before he even realizes he cannot block. Doppo's analytical prediction isn't as quick to kick in. The Dorian case kicked in severely late into the fight. It's not precog, he needs info to work with. And no Doppo isn't really a skilled dodger, he never dodges.
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Granted, blocking isn't an option, however, Mirio will not be able to Permeate the parry if he wants to ever land a hit. It's a single move where Mirio either has to phase through and not hit Doppo or get parried as soon as he makes physical contact via Sangan blitzing reaction speed and Analytical Prediction. Gensai is dealing with someone that blitzed his combat and movement speed, Doppo has a massive reaction speed advantage on top of the predictive skill. Unless Mirio can produce Overhaul levels of AOE, he is never going to hit.
It was an idea, but first off, it's not necessary since Mirio is quite massively outsped and secondly, Analytical Prediction. I honestly don't know or care too much about the blind spot idea, it's a nice addition, but there's nothing lost if it doesn't work. Also, you're not understanding what I'm saying as is evident by the "Doppo isn't sand" comment, but it's irrelevant anyway. Let's move on
Sorry, I was looking at the wrong part of the video, that's my mistake. Regardless though, like I mentioned in the point above, the blind spot idea isn't really necessary
Uhhhh... what? Experiencing Mirio's attack pattern, combat habits, and Permeating is literally how Doppo wins this fight, let alone his 40+ years of fighting. He literally gains the ability to combat this ability by experiencing it and adapting his style to counter, which might I add is also something only an experienced martial artist would effectively be capable of doing, so...
Still don't have to blitz thought, both of those amps blitz Mirio's reaction speed
Because it literally cannot be intangible on the point of contact or it would just phase through Doppo. And no, in the link I showed you alone, Doppo takes 2 shots to the nose and chin 1) barely backs off and 2) gets right back up barely harmed respectively, and these are shots from Ali Jr, who beats both him and Shibukawa in just a few punches.
No, it can blitz reaction, so he can't react to it. It doesn't matter how fast his reaction (Permeating) is, as the move is hitting him faster that his brain can process. If his reaction speed is getting blitzed, regardless of how fast Permeate is, he can't do it as a reaction in time to stop Doppo.
No, that's not necessarily true. Doppo had Dorian completely figured out from the second the second fight began, as we see Doppo predicting him constantly throughout the fight, it just increases in accuracy as they fight, having a 100% read of everything Dorian intends to do by ~2-5 actual skirmishes or exchanges into the fight. Doppo can easily hold out getting smacked around a bit, but that's only to say Doppo doesn't just use Sangan after all of his hit phase through someone (similar effect to Afterimage, which to Doppo means he's getting blitzed, which would envoke Sangan). Mirio is highly unlikely to hit Doppo, and then after AP gets working, Mirio just flat out won't hit. As far as dodging, that's ridiculous to begin with, however, we've never seen Doppo fight a person he physically cannot hit, so claiming that because he doesn't dodge in character that he either wouldn't dodge or is a bad dodger is a weird and wrong argument. Not only would his dodging ability scale to his combat speed and reaction as well as his general martial prowess, but as I mentioned, Sangan+AP means even if Doppo had ice cubes for feet, Mirio couldn't hit Doppo.
It was an idea, but first off, it's not necessary since Mirio is quite massively outsped and secondly, Analytical Prediction. I honestly don't know or care too much about the blind spot idea, it's a nice addition, but there's nothing lost if it doesn't work. Also, you're not understanding what I'm saying as is evident by the "Doppo isn't sand" comment, but it's irrelevant anyway. Let's move on
Sorry, I was looking at the wrong part of the video, that's my mistake. Regardless though, like I mentioned in the point above, the blind spot idea isn't really necessary
Uhhhh... what? Experiencing Mirio's attack pattern, combat habits, and Permeating is literally how Doppo wins this fight, let alone his 40+ years of fighting. He literally gains the ability to combat this ability by experiencing it and adapting his style to counter, which might I add is also something only an experienced martial artist would effectively be capable of doing, so...
Still don't have to blitz thought, both of those amps blitz Mirio's reaction speed
Because it literally cannot be intangible on the point of contact or it would just phase through Doppo. And no, in the link I showed you alone, Doppo takes 2 shots to the nose and chin 1) barely backs off and 2) gets right back up barely harmed respectively, and these are shots from Ali Jr, who beats both him and Shibukawa in just a few punches.
No, it can blitz reaction, so he can't react to it. It doesn't matter how fast his reaction (Permeating) is, as the move is hitting him faster that his brain can process. If his reaction speed is getting blitzed, regardless of how fast Permeate is, he can't do it as a reaction in time to stop Doppo.
No, that's not necessarily true. Doppo had Dorian completely figured out from the second the second fight began, as we see Doppo predicting him constantly throughout the fight, it just increases in accuracy as they fight, having a 100% read of everything Dorian intends to do by ~2-5 actual skirmishes or exchanges into the fight. Doppo can easily hold out getting smacked around a bit, but that's only to say Doppo doesn't just use Sangan after all of his hit phase through someone (similar effect to Afterimage, which to Doppo means he's getting blitzed, which would envoke Sangan). Mirio is highly unlikely to hit Doppo, and then after AP gets working, Mirio just flat out won't hit. As far as dodging, that's ridiculous to begin with, however, we've never seen Doppo fight a person he physically cannot hit, so claiming that because he doesn't dodge in character that he either wouldn't dodge or is a bad dodger is a weird and wrong argument. Not only would his dodging ability scale to his combat speed and reaction as well as his general martial prowess, but as I mentioned, Sangan+AP means even if Doppo had ice cubes for feet, Mirio couldn't hit Doppo.
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I still feel like this should be close but if it's gonna continue for some reason Doppo FRA.
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Nothing has changed since the last one and Doppo won pretty decisively, so there's no harm in it, especially seeing as it's already 3-1NotoriouSoda said:
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No? Cus he makes the tip of his fist tangible after he phases past the parry or block attempts. You can't condition Mirio like that, he does not care about Martial arts as he has the means through literally anything martial arts can do with Phasing, no martial arts is created to beat a phasing opponent. And again Sangan won't be able to blitz thought speed which is what Doppo needs to fight against here.
If Doppo initiates an attack he'll never dodge in time. He'd need movement speed for that, so yes quite a bit is lost if he keeps trying things that won't work. The idea is, Doppo can't hide inside of Mirio's strikes.
Ok, no blind spots.
Not exactly doe. Even if you figure out what Mirio can do, it's not like you can stop him from doing it. The idea is, no matter how hard Doppo tries, he can only dodge at best, and he has like 4 attempts in total (2 of which will be before he even realizes how Mirio's quirk works). Does 4 hits sound like a fair assumption on the amount of attacks needed for KO?
They do need to do that though. The permation is thought based. To reach a conclusion where you land a hit without Mirio being able to go intangible you'd need to blitz his thought speed (so he literally should not have enough time to think about going intangible if you want to land a hit). Blitzing reaction is not gonna do anything, cus Mirio doesn't need to react to the punch, just process the thought.
That's exactly what being tangible only in the point of contact means doe. It won't go through. You can see in 1 of the links i sent you above. Where he kicks the dude while 80% of his foot is still inside of the girl's head.
...Reaction is not thought speed doe. Just a quick lecture here, reaction is the time it takes for this process to happen "sensors take the info, the mind processes it, the mind sends the signals to the muscles, the muscles start moving", this is reaction which is why Instinctive Reaction is called instinctive reaction. Thought speed is just the 1st part "The sensors take the info, the mind processes it". So what you're saying is Doppo will be fast enough to blitz his thought process which is just not happening. Im sorry no matter how you try to spin this, the amp is not big enough to achieve that. Just to put that into perspective even assuming the amps are 10x (which would be an almost outlierish highball as from what im seeing from the calcs the difference in speed from Amped Doppo to Mirio is less than 3x), it would still be "Doppo can move 1m while Mirio can move 10 cm". The difference is not as great as you think it is. No matter what, it ain't blitzing, this isn't about arguing now, it's about being plain wrong, it just ain't happening, not with such a small speed difference.
Doppo had fought Dorian previously so there's that. About dodging, well it scales to speed, but dodging isn't just speed it takes skill and Doppo's kind of karate is not very reliant on dodging so him dodging, and mirio is faster at first, so Mirio will have a pretty easy time taking Doppo for a ride at first especially if he decides to use Phantom Threat which is pretty in character and Doppo has no way around.
Also Mirio will know what Doppo would be using due to Analytical Prediction. So the Analytical Prediction just ends up being averaged out as each will be moves ahead and will be seeing the attacks coming.
If Doppo initiates an attack he'll never dodge in time. He'd need movement speed for that, so yes quite a bit is lost if he keeps trying things that won't work. The idea is, Doppo can't hide inside of Mirio's strikes.
Ok, no blind spots.
Not exactly doe. Even if you figure out what Mirio can do, it's not like you can stop him from doing it. The idea is, no matter how hard Doppo tries, he can only dodge at best, and he has like 4 attempts in total (2 of which will be before he even realizes how Mirio's quirk works). Does 4 hits sound like a fair assumption on the amount of attacks needed for KO?
They do need to do that though. The permation is thought based. To reach a conclusion where you land a hit without Mirio being able to go intangible you'd need to blitz his thought speed (so he literally should not have enough time to think about going intangible if you want to land a hit). Blitzing reaction is not gonna do anything, cus Mirio doesn't need to react to the punch, just process the thought.
That's exactly what being tangible only in the point of contact means doe. It won't go through. You can see in 1 of the links i sent you above. Where he kicks the dude while 80% of his foot is still inside of the girl's head.
...Reaction is not thought speed doe. Just a quick lecture here, reaction is the time it takes for this process to happen "sensors take the info, the mind processes it, the mind sends the signals to the muscles, the muscles start moving", this is reaction which is why Instinctive Reaction is called instinctive reaction. Thought speed is just the 1st part "The sensors take the info, the mind processes it". So what you're saying is Doppo will be fast enough to blitz his thought process which is just not happening. Im sorry no matter how you try to spin this, the amp is not big enough to achieve that. Just to put that into perspective even assuming the amps are 10x (which would be an almost outlierish highball as from what im seeing from the calcs the difference in speed from Amped Doppo to Mirio is less than 3x), it would still be "Doppo can move 1m while Mirio can move 10 cm". The difference is not as great as you think it is. No matter what, it ain't blitzing, this isn't about arguing now, it's about being plain wrong, it just ain't happening, not with such a small speed difference.
Doppo had fought Dorian previously so there's that. About dodging, well it scales to speed, but dodging isn't just speed it takes skill and Doppo's kind of karate is not very reliant on dodging so him dodging, and mirio is faster at first, so Mirio will have a pretty easy time taking Doppo for a ride at first especially if he decides to use Phantom Threat which is pretty in character and Doppo has no way around.
Also Mirio will know what Doppo would be using due to Analytical Prediction. So the Analytical Prediction just ends up being averaged out as each will be moves ahead and will be seeing the attacks coming.
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While i don't want to, im afraid i can't count the current Doppo votes. The reasoning is reliant on him blitzing thought speed which the speed difference is not NEARLY enough to achieve.NotoriouSoda said:
Anyway to summarize:
- Analytical Prediction: Both sides have it, Mirio's version kicks in quicker. So Mirio will have the advantage for quite a while before the analytical predictions averaging out.
- Blocking: Completely useless. Mirio's intangibility is made to counter that.
- Speed: Mirio has the speed advantage at first i believe (unless there is a calc im missing). Then it becomes around 3x in favor of Doppo, not enough to do blitz movement let alone blitz thoughts.
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To answer most of these points
Sangan blitzes Mirio's reaction speed, so Mirio's reaction is outsped, which he would have to react before he permeates. Hand Pocket also blitzed Mirio's reaction, so attack and defense both blitz
He doesn't need to hide his hits anyway, so the point is irrelevant
Absoultely not. Doppo has take a shit ton more hits from Yujiro, and even after a Demon Back assault, though he was in bad condition, he was still up. Mirio is just flat out not putting Doppo down. He doesn't have the raw AP to know our Doppo, he doesn't have the martial knowledge of placing his shots at the proper angles, the best targets, etc, and again, with Sangan and eventually Analytical Prediction, Mirio isn't even going to land a hit to begin with.
Actually, no. Mirio Permeates as a reaction to someone or something trying to hit him, key word being he reacts. If he cannot react to an attack (Hand Pocket), he cannot Permeate.
So that's when he'll hit. I cannot explain it more simply than "Doppo will hit whatever is tangible whenever it's tangible".
That is not how I've been told that works. Reaction is reaction, you either can or cannot react to something in enough time. Ali Jr., who was so fast Doppo literally couldn't even dodge despite having things like Analytical Prediction, got outsped so badly, Doppo hit him despite having not moved until Jr. was well into his punch and he still got blitzed to the point that he didn't even see the hit. Mirio isn't even going to be able to register the attack before Doppo hits him.
For a total of like 3 hits total between them, hardly an actual fight. Dodging takes skill, sure, but Mirio is barely faster and Doppo's Sangan makes his reaction much faster, not to mention that even Dorian can casually shift and tilt slightly to dodge a rush from even Katou, a B-A rank Underground fighter, and it is heavily implied that Doppo is considerably more skilled than Dorian. Mirio might get in a Phantom Thread before Doppo uses Sangan, and that's under the massively unlikely circumstances that 1) Doppo doesn't try and fail to hit him despite "clearly not missing" and/or 2) Mirio leads with Phantom Thread. After Sangan activates, Mirio will be hard pressed to land a hit, and then come AP.
Mirio has like a baseline AP as he needs a general idea of what the enemy will do when he phases into objects. Mirio is going to get massively outpredicted every single time he tries to AP, likely putting himself in an even more disadvantageous position.
Sangan blitzes Mirio's reaction speed, so Mirio's reaction is outsped, which he would have to react before he permeates. Hand Pocket also blitzed Mirio's reaction, so attack and defense both blitz
He doesn't need to hide his hits anyway, so the point is irrelevant
Absoultely not. Doppo has take a shit ton more hits from Yujiro, and even after a Demon Back assault, though he was in bad condition, he was still up. Mirio is just flat out not putting Doppo down. He doesn't have the raw AP to know our Doppo, he doesn't have the martial knowledge of placing his shots at the proper angles, the best targets, etc, and again, with Sangan and eventually Analytical Prediction, Mirio isn't even going to land a hit to begin with.
Actually, no. Mirio Permeates as a reaction to someone or something trying to hit him, key word being he reacts. If he cannot react to an attack (Hand Pocket), he cannot Permeate.
So that's when he'll hit. I cannot explain it more simply than "Doppo will hit whatever is tangible whenever it's tangible".
That is not how I've been told that works. Reaction is reaction, you either can or cannot react to something in enough time. Ali Jr., who was so fast Doppo literally couldn't even dodge despite having things like Analytical Prediction, got outsped so badly, Doppo hit him despite having not moved until Jr. was well into his punch and he still got blitzed to the point that he didn't even see the hit. Mirio isn't even going to be able to register the attack before Doppo hits him.
For a total of like 3 hits total between them, hardly an actual fight. Dodging takes skill, sure, but Mirio is barely faster and Doppo's Sangan makes his reaction much faster, not to mention that even Dorian can casually shift and tilt slightly to dodge a rush from even Katou, a B-A rank Underground fighter, and it is heavily implied that Doppo is considerably more skilled than Dorian. Mirio might get in a Phantom Thread before Doppo uses Sangan, and that's under the massively unlikely circumstances that 1) Doppo doesn't try and fail to hit him despite "clearly not missing" and/or 2) Mirio leads with Phantom Thread. After Sangan activates, Mirio will be hard pressed to land a hit, and then come AP.
Mirio has like a baseline AP as he needs a general idea of what the enemy will do when he phases into objects. Mirio is going to get massively outpredicted every single time he tries to AP, likely putting himself in an even more disadvantageous position.
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That's 100% absolutely ridiculous. Mirio's AP gets outdone even by 13 y/o Baki in a glance. So AP goes to DoppoFirephoenixearl said:
Blocking is literally not a point
Sangan is a 3x speed amp. Hand Pocket straight up blitzes
3-1 for Doppo
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I could go to the rest of those, but Grappler Baki is in serious need of some revisions. And Doppo's tier will be 1 of them. So this should be redone at a later date.
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