Invincible (Comics) Viltrumite Tiers Upgrade + Miscellaneous

[Reyne]

"planets, stars, ships--anything in their path is destroyed", literally just replace anything with any of the 3 examples given. "planets in their path are destroyed". It also mentions damaged artifacts as examples of evidence used to determine it's level of power, so it seemingly doesn't just blast a hole through things. If it was accepted as such then the KE of Viltrum blowing up should just be split in 3 and scaled to the Viltrumites, since the gun can't do anything else to celestial bodies other than shoot a miniscule hole through them.

"This weapon--the infinity ray-- emitted an energy wave that was unstoppable. It was said that blasts from this infinity ray still race through the cosmos, blasting a path through anything they encounter" is what is written directly preceeding that line.

As I mentioned before, whatever destruction follow the carved path could be outflown by Nolan, so whatever effect it could have had on Viltrum would be indistinguishable from the damage the trio brought with them when following behind the beam very closely.

The original version shows that at least the initial intent was to make a point of its ability to go through anything.

Given the comparatively slow nature of the asteroids falling apart when we first see the Infinity Ray used in the comic, it does look to support the idea that it does weaken or "soften" the target. Whatever this is could explain what Thaedus meant by destabilizing the core. The feat isn"t ascribed to the trio because we don't know for sure one way or the other. Occum's Razor points towards the planet listed at has having 1.25x the surface gravity of Earth and has been compared to Earth in its nature is not held together by a... beyond stellar core(?).

 

[FusionPrime0]

It was bro. He literally says right after listing it's capabilities that it was just a theory and that 'it was said'. He doesn't confirm anything to be true, he calls it's capabilities 'tall tales'. The only thing that the evidence he gathered concretely points to is that the infinity ray is a beam of energy that is unstoppable. He never confirms those capabilities to be true, he literally calls them tall tales by the end.

I mean a theory is a well substantiated explanation by definition. It's "that of tall tales" meaning it's capabilities were crazy enough that without evidence they would seem like tall tales, not that the capabilities are fake. To be fair they don't necessarily refer to the one's he previously described but the implication is sorta there.

Unless their ship's hull wasn't already damaged/ compromised.

The only damage the ship sustained was from Tech Jacket grabbing it which didn't even puncture the hull.

Nolan transitions from discussing the weapon to discussing Space Racer generally. When he says the stories are conflicting, he doesn't explicitly limit that statement to only his location. Even if the immediate context is tracking Space Racer, it still demonstrates that the available information surrounding him is inconsistent/ unreliable.

This would contract all the evidence pointing to the same conclusion in the last paragraph. Sure those stories may be generally unreliable, but that doesn't discredit the previous evidence.

Just seems to be the logic or science that the universe seems to be abiding by. Again you seem to be willing to do this too so I don't see why this kind of reasoning should be a problem.

I mean we we see the gun having an area of effect as it shoots through the asteroid and when it hits Viltrum. Just less so than the Viltrumites for the Viltrum feat.

“Capabilities were that of tall tales” is a general characterization of how unbelievable and legendary the weapon is, not an explicit verification of each specific rumor mentioned earlier.

sure, but the implication is still there

Sure man. If you so willing to do that, i'm sure you won't mind this at all. Why can't it just be that whenever space racer's beam interacts with objects of significant mass it causes a chain reaction causing it to collapse but... it doesn't apply to Viltrum and only destabilizes it's core. It doesn't mean that Viltrum dura is higher because 2 contradictory things can be true at the same time in fiction. It's better than throwing out Thadeus's statement about the core being destabilized which is why the viltrumites didn't die on contact and ignoring the fact that the infinity ray clearly doesn't display star level DC or AoE whenever on screen, failing to vaporize viltrumites who are far below stellar level. It makes more sense to compromise and that the Ray destroys stars and other planets due to a special interaction with it that is not present in Viltrum. It's a literal sci fi bs gun. Hell when it destroyed the asteroid the asteroid slowly crumbled and caused a chain reaction affecting the rest of the asteriod belt. It wasn't vaporised but I don't think that asteroid now has star level durability.

That doesn't work since the gun is stated to be able to destroy planets so Viltrum would meet that mass threshold. The part of the asteroid that it shot through is closer to Viltrumite size than planet size so it would have less time to impart energy also the energy it imparts when it hits celestial bodies could be more akin to a shockwave and we see that be the case here. There's zero mention of any special interactions and that Viltrum doesn't have that property whilst every other planet does, it's the same argument I'm making for Viltrum except your stance is flipped and there's zero evidence or implications.

See what i'm getting at? Using it to bolster Viltrum's dura to neutron star level despite viltrum never being portrayed as anything other than a different planet and not some stellar level mass using selective data is questionable.

It would be kinda weird if the entire page we got talking about space racer's power was complete bunk. I understand if it's not exactly home run evidence, but it should still be discussed and a likely/possibly rating might be fine.

 

[FusionPrime0]

"This weapon--the infinity ray-- emitted an energy wave that was unstoppable. It was said that blasts from this infinity ray still race through the cosmos, blasting a path through anything they encounter" is what is written directly preceeding that line.

That doesn't mean it's limited to that. We see it have area of effect when interacting with celestial bodies here and here.

As I mentioned before, whatever destruction follow the carved path could be outflown by Nolan, so whatever effect it could have had on Viltrum would be indistinguishable from the damage the trio brought with them when following behind the beam very closely.

Tbh we see the area of effect the ray has on the planet be far smaller in scale compared to the trio.

The original version shows that at least the initial intent was to make a point of its ability to go through anything.

Using similar logic we see the TV Series version which Robert Kirkman treats like a "second draft" directly blow up a star.

Given the comparatively slow nature of the asteroids falling apart when we first see the Infinity Ray used in the comic, it does look to support the idea that it does weaken or "soften" the target.

It breaks apart in like 2 panels and the only time comparison we have is the 2 MFTL+ guys talking so idk. We see it have an aoe in the examples I linked above so yes it affects celestial bodies on a larger scale than just a hole, but idk where the "soften" comes from.

Whatever this is could explain what Thaedus meant by destabilizing the core. The feat isn"t ascribed to the trio because we don't know for sure one way or the other.

We see the weapon has an aoe when interacting with celestial bodies and we have explicit confirmation that any meaningful contribution the gun made was limited to just the core. The feat obviously isn't ascribed to just the trio but they're the only ones who affected anything beyond the core.

Occum's Razor points towards the planet listed at has having 1.25x the surface gravity of Earth and has been compared to Earth in its nature is not held together by a... beyond stellar core(?).

The guidebook is an old secondary source so compared to anything from the actual comic it hold no weight. I think Occam's Razor points to the opposite here. The weapon is stated to destroy planets and stars, we see the ray have an area of effect beyond just a beam when interacting with celestial bodies and we have an explicit statement that it could only destabilize Viltrum's core. Would it not be simpler to say the core is above the potency of the ray's area of effect instead of a weapon with stellar aoe and dc doing hardly anything to it for some reason?

I would be fine with a likely/possibly rating as a compromise but completely discrediting the infinity ray seems disingenuous.

I would also like to point out Universa's planet is almost the size of and has a greater mass than Jupiter from the direct statement we have about it, as well as the Rognarr planet being close to or far above that from it's own statements so there's already impossible planets in verse. While this doesn't really mean much when talking about a star/solar level core it's something.

 

[Phirse]

I mean we we see the gun having an area of effect as it shoots through the asteroid and when it hits Viltrum.

Both of these not even close to the star level AoE expected. The viltrum one only makes a hole a couple meters wide, using you logic the ground around it would have star level durability since the infinity ray has the AoE to destroy stars yet can't vaporise the surrounding rock. It takes a long time for that asteroid to fully crumble and the surrounding asteriod belt is only destroyed due to a chain reaction from the fragmentation from said asteroid? Would that asteroid be star level too?

That doesn't work since the gun is stated to be able to destroy planets so Viltrum would meet that mass threshold. The part of the asteroid that it shot through is closer to Viltrumite size than planet size so it would have less time to impart energy also the energy it imparts when it hits celestial bodies could be more akin to a shockwave and we see that be the case here. There's zero mention of any special interactions and that Viltrum doesn't have that property whilst every other planet does, it's the same argument I'm making for Viltrum except your stance is flipped and there's zero evidence or implications.

You know what the gun is also stated to do? Destroy anything in it's path yet fails to do so to viltrumites corpses and viltrum, if your interpreting that statement thru the AoE/DC angle.

Viltrum doesn't have that property whilst every other planet does, it's the same argument I'm making for Viltrum except your stance is flipped and there's zero evidence or implications.

There is evidence and implications, it fails to fully destroy viltrumite corpses despite it being stated to destroy anything in it's path, if your looking thru the DC angle. And Viltrumites are most certainly not star level since the entire premise of one of the most powerful viltrumite's death is being baked in the sun. In the comic on both planet viltrum and the asteroid it fails to create star level DC. Your evidence is mostly coming from statements which is susceptible to different interpretations. There is evidence that it behaves differently on different objects and so trying to gauge durability from the DC caused on the objects is shaky at best. As an analogy say character x can destroy planets so he has planetry DC, he then punches character y and proceeds to cleave thru him but doesn't entirely destroy his surrounding body, it's also important to note that when X does this he does not display planetary DC only AP. This then doesn't mean y has planetary dura. Y is Viltrum and X is the ray.

Let's look at what the statements says actually.

'It was said that blasts from this infinity ray still race through the cosmos, blasting a path through anything they encounter. Planets, Stars, Ships-- anything in their path is is destroyed. Even ignoring how uncertain the own source is, the statement could be possibly interpreted as the infinity ray simply blasting thru anything.The key phrase is “blasting a path through.” the sentence before suggests the Infinity Ray pierces through whatever it hits destroying whatever material whether stellar material or planetary material is in it's way. “Destroy” in that context refers to the material directly in the beam’s path, like how an armor‑piercing round “destroys” a tank by cutting through its armor and internals, not by erasing the whole tank from existence.

 

[Phirse]

would be kinda weird if the entire page we got talking about space racer's power was complete bunk. I understand if it's not exactly home run evidence, but it should still be discussed and a likely/possibly rating might be fine

This is fine but it should not be used for calcs to upgrade the Viltrum feat imo. After all it's only a possibility. Space Racer's gun already has a possibly star level on his page and Viltrum does not have a page. It also isn't entirely bunk. Space racer's laser being unstoppable is seemingly contradicted.

The only damage the ship sustained was from Tech Jacket grabbing it which didn't even puncture the hull.

Yh and damage to the hull can cause the ship to explode. The shuttle challenger failure was caused by the o rings failing causing hot pressurized gas to leak thru. Cracks in the ships hull is a feasible cause for an explosion.

 

[Reyne]

That doesn't mean it's limited to that. We see it have area of effect when interacting with celestial bodies here and here.

Tbh we see the area of effect the ray has on the planet be far smaller in scale compared to the trio.

Using similar logic we see the TV Series version which Robert Kirkman treats like a "second draft" directly blow up a star.

It breaks apart in like 2 panels and the only time comparison we have is the 2 MFTL+ guys talking so idk. We see it have an aoe in the examples I linked above so yes it affects celestial bodies on a larger scale than just a hole, but idk where the "soften" comes from.

We see the weapon has an aoe when interacting with celestial bodies and we have explicit confirmation that any meaningful contribution the gun made was limited to just the core. The feat obviously isn't ascribed to just the trio but they're the only ones who affected anything beyond the core.

The guidebook is an old secondary source so compared to anything from the actual comic it hold no weight. I think Occam's Razor points to the opposite here. The weapon is stated to destroy planets and stars, we see the ray have an area of effect beyond just a beam when interacting with celestial bodies and we have an explicit statement that it could only destabilize Viltrum's core. Would it not be simpler to say the core is above the potency of the ray's area of effect instead of a weapon with stellar aoe and dc doing hardly anything to it for some reason?

I would be fine with a likely/possibly rating as a compromise but completely discrediting the infinity ray seems disingenuous.

I would also like to point out Universa's planet is almost the size of and has a greater mass than Jupiter from the direct statement we have about it, as well as the Rognarr planet being close to or far above that from it's own statements so there's already impossible planets in verse. While this doesn't really mean much when talking about a star/solar level core it's something.

I've pointed out before that Space Racer in S2 is more than likely just Mark's imagination based on what he has, and is not an actual scene of Space Racer. This is besides the point though.

The Ragnarr's planet and Universa's planet bit is a fair point. I'm not trying to discredit the power of the Infinity Gun. It's just that we really don't have as much support for the claim that it blows things up compared to the claim that it goes through anything, which is very verifiable. The story makes it out to be that the trio and the gun were both important. Whatever the nature of the core was, it was made out to be an important aspect of Viltrum being so robust. Until Kirkmam clarifies what he intended, I think it's just fine to give the guys the chunk they knock out.

 

[Tahoy49574]

This is fine but it should not be used for calcs to upgrade the Viltrum feat imo. After all it's only a possibility. Space Racer's gun already has a possibly star level on his page and Viltrum does not have a page. It also isn't entirely bunk. Space racer's laser being unstoppable is seemingly contradicted.

Space Racer should've been thoroughly discussed before being given a profile. Everyone is talking about how it's some sort of durability negation hax while his profile has none of that and just treats it like raw AP.

 

[Greg_the_master_of_gods]

The guidebook is an old secondary source so compared to anything from the actual comic it hold no weight. I think Occam's Razor points to the opposite here. The weapon is stated to destroy planets and stars, we see the ray have an area of effect beyond just a beam when interacting with celestial bodies and we have an explicit statement that it could only destabilize Viltrum's core. Would it not be simpler to say the core is above the potency of the ray's area of effect instead of a weapon with stellar aoe and dc doing hardly anything to it for some reason?

Couldn't it be plot-induced stupidity about the ray not being able to destroy the planet? So that doesn't make the planet star-level durability or something.

 

[Tahoy49574]

We can't keep disregarding plot relevant showings as PIS

 

[Hellbeast]

We can't keep disregarding plot relevant showings as PIS

Especially when they’re called out by certain characters

 

[Phirse]

Space Racer should've been thoroughly discussed before being given a profile.

I doubt it's a dura neg hax as the wiki will likely interpret that as an NLF. But it being an AP weapon doesn't equate to its DC.

 

[Tahoy49574]

I doubt it's a dura neg hax as the wiki will likely interpret that as an NLF.

The last page and a half has been discussion on how to read "anything in their path is destroyed"

 

[FusionPrime0]

Both of these not even close to the star level AoE expected. The viltrum one only makes a hole a couple meters wide, using you logic the ground around it would have star level durability since the infinity ray has the AoE to destroy stars yet can't vaporise the surrounding rock. It takes a long time for that asteroid to fully crumble and the surrounding asteriod belt is only destroyed due to a chain reaction from the fragmentation from said asteroid? Would that asteroid be star level too?

Tbf we don't have the best frame of reference for the Viltrum one, we see what seems like a mountain not too far away so it could be town or city sized.

You know what the gun is also stated to do? Destroy anything in it's path yet fails to do so to viltrumites corpses and viltrum, if your interpreting that statement thru the AoE/DC angle.

It's both. The weapon destroys anything in its direct beam but also imparts enough energy to destroy celestial bodies. It's not only an AOE weapon. The AOE only comes in when effecting objects of significant size. I'm not saying it creates a planet or star sized explosion. We see the ray have a level of energy transfer to surrounding material for the asteroid and Viltrum. Since it's stated it can destroy planets and stars, presumably over the course of it's entire journey through a planet or star it is able to impart enough energy to destroy it.

And Viltrumites are most certainly not star level since the entire premise of one of the most powerful viltrumite's death is being baked in the sun.

Viltrumites have a weakness to high temps. Also surviving in a star is only 8-C to 8-A+ so this is irrelevant.

There is evidence that it behaves differently on different objects and so trying to gauge durability from the DC caused on the objects is shaky at best.

I haven't really given a methodology for how I was thinking of applying that. The weapon is shown to not have planet/star sized DC on impact, but we can see energy imparted to celestial bodies. So I think it would be reasonable to take the GBE of the celestial body and divide it by it's diameter to find the energy imparted per meter traveled through a celestial body. This would be consistent with what we see. The energy imparted by shooting through the asteroid traveled throughout it and destroyed the entire thing. This would explain the whole core phenomena, it only imparted enough energy to destabilize the core with any energy imparted to the rest of the planet being small enough to not matter.

Let's look at what the statements says actually.

'It was said that blasts from this infinity ray still race through the cosmos, blasting a path through anything they encounter. Planets, Stars, Ships-- anything in their path is is destroyed. Even ignoring how uncertain the own source is, the statement could be possibly interpreted as the infinity ray simply blasting thru anything.The key phrase is “blasting a path through.” the sentence before suggests the Infinity Ray pierces through whatever it hits destroying whatever material whether stellar material or planetary material is in it's way. “Destroy” in that context refers to the material directly in the beam’s path, like how an armor‑piercing round “destroys” a tank by cutting through its armor and internals, not by erasing the whole tank from existence.

It's a two fold statement, it first states it blasts a path through anything they encounter. Then it states how planets, stars, and ships are destroyed in it's path. It first starts with what we both agree on: the ray acts as an unstoppable beam of energy. But for the statement after it literally gives us a list of things, then tells us anyTHING in it's path is destroyed. How are the the list of things it's referring to not the things the next part of the sentence is referring too?

This is fine but it should not be used for calcs to upgrade the Viltrum feat imo. After all it's only a possibility. Space Racer's gun already has a possibly star level on his page and Viltrum does not have a page. It also isn't entirely bunk. Space racer's laser being unstoppable is seemingly contradicted.

It would be a "possibly" upgrade. Like the Viltrumites would be 5-A possibly 4-C for example. Also the profile was made by one person and they never discussed with anyone else on the wiki.

Yh and damage to the hull can cause the ship to explode. The shuttle challenger failure was caused by the o rings failing causing hot pressurized gas to leak thru. Cracks in the ships hull is a feasible cause for an explosion.

I mean possibly but like in the panel we literally see the impact mark on top of the sun. I think the author's intent that the ship is supposed to hit the sun is pretty clear.

 

[Phirse]

Viltrumites have a weakness to high temps. Also surviving in a star is only 8-C to 8-A+ so this is irrelevant.

Yh I agree it's an outlier but like you said previously lol, it's what the author intended given it was a major plot point. Which would put them sub star.

 

[FusionPrime0]

Yh I agree it's an outlier but like you said previously lol, it's what the author intended given it was a major plot point. Which would put them sub star.

I don't see how fighting in a star and destroying a star are in any way connected here. It's also already accepted that Viltrumites have a weakness to prolonged exposure to high temps.

 

[Greg_the_master_of_gods]

I don't see how fighting in a star and destroying a star are in any way connected here. It's also already accepted that Viltrumites have a weakness to prolonged exposure to high temps.

Maybe because if they were star level they could just have exploded the star instead of dying in it? But idk, bro.

 

[FusionPrime0]

Maybe because if they were star level they could just have exploded the star instead of dying in it? But idk, bro.

Neither of them ever said they were going to or wanted to destroy the star, so this is kind of a non point.

 

[Greg_the_master_of_gods]

Attack Potency

Destructive Capacity is the term used to determine the amount of damage a character can produce. It is normally the deciding factor of VS matches along with Speed. It is measured in units of energy. An alternative term for Destructive Capacity which has more direct meaning: The Destructive...

vsbattles.fandom.com

I'm not saying that was my opinion, I'm just explaining the logic used by Phirse (would put those two hands emoji but that's too much antvasima's signature)

 

[Phirse]

Neither of them ever said they were going to or wanted to destroy the star

Yh Thragg just decided not to that when he was dying, calling Invincible crazy and trying to escape the star.

I don't see how fighting in a star and destroying a star are in any way connected here. It's also already accepted that Viltrumites have a weakness to prolonged exposure to high temps.

I mean they literally died because of the energy released by a star. That is infinitesimally less energy than what it would take to destroy a star. Going off that alone them being just near a supernova would fry them.

 

[FusionPrime0]

Yh Thragg just decided not to that when he was dying, calling Invincible crazy and trying to escape the star.

This is literally just a hypothetical, he never stated he wanted to do it so it doesn’t matter. This is the same logic as downscaling everyone’s IQ in the coalition to below average because they didn’t think about giving Mark a Tech Jacket to solo the Viltrumite empire on his own.

Also like how could Thragg do that when Mark is right next to him and would stop him if he tried?

I mean they literally died because of the energy released by a star. That is infinitesimally less energy than what it would take to destroy a star.

So you’re pushing for removing the accepted heat resistance explanation and downscaling the verse to 8-C to 8-A+? If so that’s beyond the scope of this thread and you would need to make your own.

Going off that alone them being just near a supernova would fry them.

Yea the heat of a supernova is hotter than their heat resistance.

 

[Phirse]

So you’re pushing for removing the accepted heat resistance explanation and downscaling the verse to 8-C to 8-A+? If so that’s beyond the scope of this thread and you would need to make your own.

No i'm not. Your just making stuff up. Doesn't matter if they died because of a weakness to heat lol. I'm saying that because they died in a star the author intended they are below stars lol. I'm not trying to downgrade them to 8-c. You were the one using occams razor and author's intent and narrative scaling a minute ago lol.

Yea the heat of a supernova is hotter than their heat resistance.

Okay so they aren't star level.

 

[Tahoy49574]

Okay so they aren't star level.

Supernovas are Solar System level

 

[Greg_the_master_of_gods]

Supernovas are Solar System level

Any place I searched says they have the energy of one (1) foe, which is large star level, but your point remains.

 

[Phirse]

Supernovas are Solar System level

Depends on the star I guess but from what I can tell your average one is large star

 

[FusionPrime0]

No i'm not. Your just making stuff up. Doesn't matter if they died because of a weakness to heat lol. I'm saying that because they died in a star the author intended they are below stars lol. I'm not trying to downgrade them to 8-c. You were the one using occams razor and author's intent and narrative scaling a minute ago lol.

How is them dying in a star supposed to be intent that they can’t destroy it?? Those two are unrelated. This is like saying a character with consistent planetary scaling who died from falling into lava on Earth isn’t planetary because they died to phenomena caused by Earth.

Okay so they aren't star level.

Supernovae are never mentioned in the story, the hypothetical means nothing.

 

[Phirse]

Ok bro. Have a good day. It's been going back and forth a lot. We obviously won't agree. I don't want to push this any further.