Invincible (Comics) Viltrumite Tiers Upgrade + Miscellaneous

[FusionPrime0]

1. Addressing Space Racer and the sub 5-B allegations

The Infinity Ray
In Nolan's book it is stated that "all that is known are it's capabilities", before describing how the information was gathered from thousands of sources from sketchy eyewitness accounts to destroyed artifacts. He wrote that "they all pointed to the same conclusion" that being that the infinity ray is unstoppable. The Infinity Ray is stated to be able to blast a path through anything it encounters, noting that anything in it's path is destroyed, specifically stating planets and stars as examples of celestial objects it destroys. Farther down the page Nolan notes how even though they were far fetched, it's capabilities were that of tall tales.

This is an incredibly blatant description of it's power. The weapon is meant to be able to destroy planets and stars it blasts into. Considering Nolan states "anything" that it encounters, it could potentially mean any planet and star, minus the one exception.

Viltrum
The infinity ray is set up to be so powerful, yet it could only destabilize the core of Viltrum. A planet (and even star) busting gun can't destroy a planet on it's own. Either the thousands of sources, years of study on Nolan's part, and confirmation from Nolan after encountering him is wrong and the weapon is sub 5-B, or Viltrum is the exception and is abnormally durable for a planet.

Does Viltrum have 4-C to 4-B (Neutron stars) durability? Potentially. A major counterargument I've seen is that the weapon destabilizes the core of stars, inducing a supernova. For one, this is never implied in the story, the only time destabilization is brought up is when Thaedus said it'll destabilize Viltrum's core (the abnormally durable planet). And the wording here is just a blatant "destroys". Even so, causing a star's collapse by messing with the core would still be impressive as supernovae (or outer layer shedding for lower mass stars) requires the complete fuel exhaustion of the star or when gravity overcomes the fusion output.

Another thing to note is that Space Racer is very secretive about his weapon. Nolan states that "no one has ever gotten close enough to study the infinity ray for themselves, the space rider made sure of that". Meaning he likely wouldn't give up information to the coalition just because of a shared goal. This means Thaedus only knows of the Infinity Ray's capabilities from Nolan's books, which blatantly state it can destroy planets and stars. Yet he thinks this planet and star busting weapon can only destabilize the core of Viltrum.

I think it's pretty clear that the Infinity Ray is meant to be 4-C to 4-B (or at the very worst >the most durable planets and >the core's of stars) with Viltrum being even more durable than that.

Either way this would need a new calculation to find Viltrum's durability and the strength of the Viltrumites for blowing the rest of the planet apart/just their exit impact. The logistics of which would be delegated to a later thread if scaling the infinity ray to it's statements and Viltrum above it is accepted.

I would also like to touch on the obvious that irl planets cannot be this durable/massive, but I think the author's intent of the Infinity Ray being this strong and Viltrum being more durable than that is enough to throw this out.

Infinity Ray & Viltrum > Any Star:
Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

Infinity Ray & Viltrum > Star:
Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

Infinity Ray & Viltrum > Any Planet & Stellar Core:
Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

Infinity Ray < Planet level:
Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

Disagree: @Qawsedf234

2. The Upscales

5-A
Firstly this calculation was accepted for Tech Jacket throwing a Space Ship into the Sun. The blog also has a link to the explanation of why it actually hit the sun but I'll add it here:
Kresh ships would need to be able to survive re-entry into their own atmosphere, which is so dense that they need special full body suits to survive in other environments. Re-entry into Earth's atmosphere can already reach up to 7,000 degrees Fahrenheit, so re-entry into a far denser atmosphere would reach far higher temperatures. On the other hand, the surface of the sun is only 10,000 degrees Fahrenheit. Due to the nature of their home planet their ships would likely need to be able to survive temperatures relative to that of the surface of the sun, so I doubt it would randomly explode near the sun's surface due to the heat.

This calc would put beginning of series Tech Jacket at 226.65 Yottatons of TNT or Large Planet level

I redid the current Viltrum bust calculation with KE (without any of the Viltrum durability upscales mentioned above) but it still requires eval. The results range from high into 5-B to 5-A which supports the 5-A Tech Jacket calculation.

There are also a multitude of solar disk calculations, which hover around 5-A as well. The logistics of which calculation to use, if any, and how the feat will be tackled should be handled in a later thread. Though it should scale to Viltrumites once a calculation is accepted.

Additionally there is a feat of Mark and Tick pushing a large moon, which gets to around 5-A with KE, but it's from a one sided Tick crossover issue, which has iffy canonicity and there isn't a currently accepted calc. Also since the moon didn't destroy Mars it might break the KE rules in which case GPE would be used, which gets to barely Tier 5.

5-A upgrade:
Agree:
Disagree: @Qawsedf234
Neutral:

Tech Jacket Chain Scaling

I made a blog detailing all of the multipliers we are given in the Tech Jacket comic. This would split Tech Jacket's 2 keys into 3. I will give a TLDR here:

Geldarian Tech Jackets (100x) ~ Beginning of Series Tech Jacket

Beginning of Series Tech Jacket (20x) ~< Viltrumite War Tech Jacket

Viltrumite War Tech Jacket (10x) <<< Post-Colossus Amp Tech Jacket or Viltrumite War Tech Jacket (100x) <<< Post-Colossus Amp Tech Jacket (This depends on whether the colossus amplification is deemed as greater than the amp Zack's human physiology gives him compared to geldarians)

If accepted this would be the new scaling (also assuming everything above is accepted):

Geldarian Tech Jackets: 2.2665 Yottatons of TNT or 5-B+, 65,223 c, and 1.2356605e+10 Tons (Class T)

Beginning of Series Tech Jacket: 226.65 Yottatons of TNT or 5-A, 6,522,321 c, and 1.2356605e+12 Tons (Class P)

Viltrumite War Tech Jacket: 4.533 Ronnatons of TNT or 5-A, 130,446,428 c and 24,713,209,000,000 Tons (Class P) (Most Viltrumites upscale this version of Tech Jacket so they should get an "at least" added)

Post-Colossus Amp Tech Jacket: 45.33 or 453.3 Ronnatons of TNT or High 5-A, 1,304,464,280 c or 13,044,642,800 c, with a "likely far higher" and 68,908,161,289,999,998,976 Tons (Class Z)

Edit: Since a supporting feat is needed for multiplier chains >100x. There is a feat of the Universe's Immune System destroying Galaxies overtime, a calc mod said it would have to destroy a very big planet at least, since it's goal is to destroy significantly advanced civilizations. The GBE of one of the biggest planets in the universe is 89.134 Ronnatons of TNT or High 5-A (not far below the colossus amp tech jacket multiplier). Tech Jacket would downscale from this as the Colossal Tech Jacket could tank an energy blast from the entire swarm of the Universe's Immune System. The same Colossal Tech Jacket fired it's own energy blasts at Tech Jacket himself and Tech Jacket survived with significant damage. Tech Jacket could also kill small parts of the swarm on his own. The Universe's Immune System does have arguments for scaling higher (above any star from the same destroying galaxies over time feat or possibly 3-C to High 3-A from other statements), but this is the only feat that wouldn't require a new calc and discussion around how it's done like the solar disk for example, so if this isn't accepted the multipliers will be thrown out unless later supporting feats/calcs are brought forth.

Full Chainscale + >100x colossus amp:
Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

Full Chainscale + >10x colossus amp (>10x was already accepted in a previous thread)
Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

Disagree: @Qawsedf234

Neutral:

5-B Support

Some statements supporting this level of power.

• Mark implies that if a meteor came to take out Earth he'd be able to handle it.
• The Omega Jacket was stated to be a "planet killer" superweapon, which was able to have it's outer shell cracked by a combined effort from an early Mark, Tech Jacket, and Brit.
• Allen states the Viltrumites destroyed and blew up his homeworld hundreds of years ago.
• Mark is stated to be able to crush planets.
• Minilactus is able to eat planets before being one shotted by Null.
• BB thinks the fury of his and Thragg's clashes can tear the planet apart.
• Thragg attributes the destruction of Viltrum to mainly Mark, Nolan, and Thaedus.
• Great Dragon can swallow Earth whole if fully released.
• An unused cover of Thragg flying through a planet.

3. Miscellaneous

• This calc was accepted, upgrading Robot and Black Sampson's lifting strength to Class M. 2338.43 Tons for Black Sampson and 10554.76 Tons for Robot. Anyone who scales to either of them would also receive this rating, including Yeti.
• Monster Girl should receive Class G lifting strength through the scaling to bulletproof, which is already on her profile.
• This calc was accepted, upgrading Atom Eve's Beginning of Series Key to 8-C
• This 5-C+ calc was accepted and should be added to the verse page, and Universa's profile once that gets created.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Agree with everything, although I'm probably gonna be alone on this.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Does Viltrum have 4-C to 4-B (Neutron stars) durability? Potentially

That's not the implication at all.

The phrase "the infinity ray can't be stopped" is not contradicted by the fact it didn't destroy a planet, as it speaks much more about the size of the ray and the type of damage it lefts behind, you can't reliably conclude the GBE/Durabilty of the planet is higher because the ray pierced through the material JUST AS EASILY as anything else. This logic doesn't follow, the AP of the ray isn't based on what object it destroys, but just how easily it bypasses matter, and it did do that easily. It's not "meant to be" any level of AP, it's just "meant to" bypass matter entirely.


I disagree with upscaling Viltrum, I agree with everything else

 

[Re5yh]

So the sun feat was the real strongest feat of the series!? Agree with OP

 

[StoneKillerz12]

That's not the implication at all.

The phrase "the infinity ray can't be stopped" is not contradicted by the fact it didn't destroy a planet, as it speaks much more about the size of the ray and the type of damage it lefts behind, you can't reliably conclude the GBE/Durabilty of the planet is higher because the ray pierced through the material JUST AS EASILY as anything else. This logic doesn't follow, the AP of the ray isn't based on what object it destroys, but just how easily it bypasses matter, and it did do that easily. It's not "meant to be" any level of AP, it's just "meant to" bypass matter entirely.

I disagree with upscaling Viltrum, I agree with everything else

This is conflating the ray's piercing damage with its AoE. The argument is not that the Infinity Ray didn't do literally any damage to Viltrum at all, the argument is that Viltrum did not end up entirely destroyed just by the ray hitting it and required Mark, Nolan, and Thaedus to cause the planet to explode, which is what usually happens when the Infinity Ray pierces larger celestial bodies, like a star for example, which we see going supernova in the show (before you say "different continuity", this is simply giving a visual to the statement in the comic which previously lacked a visual, so I don't see any reason to not use this for the same reason we use Anime Roshi's moon bust for the feat's timeframe). Note that the statement I just linked also specifically notes that stars and planets, along with everything else in its path ends up specifically "destroyed", not simply having a hole put through it.

 

[Tahoy49574]

I figured we should first do an Infinity Ray CRT given that's the main reason the rating are the way they are

LS was accepted as well, but I've heard due to site standards it may not be, even though the lifting strength page states finding lifting strength from throwing objects is viable.

I mentioned this because of this interaction I had when bringing up Tech Jacket and the viltrumites throwing the warship, and it still seems be an ongoing discussion, though it seems whatever consensus there is hasn't been applied yet because everything here moves at a snail pace and because of the comment of that one mod in the discussion thread I though it was unless these feats were always valid and they were just being ignorant or something

Additionally there is a feat of Mark and Tick pushing a large moon, which gets to around 5-A with KE, but it's from a one sided Tick crossover issue, which has iffy canonicity and there isn't a currently accepted calc. Also since the moon didn't destroy Mars it might break the KE rules in which case GPE would be used, which gets to barely Tier 5.

For what it's worth at least Invincible treats the crossovers as canon to itself (Dr Seismic returns and is imprisoned in The Pact, we later see him break out of prison in the main comic/Mark references meeting Spider-Man in Brit), and it is meant to be Prime Mark as said by Benito Cereno who's a long time collaborator and is even currently writing Capes

I made a blog detailing all of the multipliers we are given in the Tech Jacket comic. This would split Tech Jacket's 2 keys into 3. I will give a TLDR here:

I think I expressed my concerns with this some time ago

 

[FusionPrime0]

This is conflating the ray's piercing damage with its AoE. The argument is not that the Infinity Ray didn't do literally any damage to Viltrum at all, the argument is that Viltrum did not end up entirely destroyed just by the ray hitting it and required Mark, Nolan, and Thaedus to cause the planet to explode, which is what usually happens when the Infinity Ray pierces larger celestial bodies, like a star for example, which we see going supernova in the show (before you say "different continuity", this is simply giving a visual to the statement in the comic which previously lacked a visual, so I don't see any reason to not use this for the same reason we use Anime Roshi's moon bust for the feat's timeframe). Note that the statement I just linked also specifically notes that stars and planets, along with everything else in its path ends up specifically "destroyed", not simply having a hole put through it.

The wording also heavily implies it completely destroys the celestial bodies. Additionally Nolan even cites "destroyed artifacts" as some of the evidence he has gathered. I don't think a planet with a tiny hole shot through it that got quickly filled would count as a "destroyed artifact" let alone one shot through a star. Also Thaedus seemingly perceived it that way as well as he's the one who brings up it destabilizing the core, which a half a meter wide energy beam wouldn't be able to do.

I figured we should first do an Infinity Ray CRT given that's the main reason the rating are the way they are

Kinda just put both together whoops

I mentioned this because of this interaction I had when bringing up Tech Jacket and the viltrumites throwing the warship, and it still seems be an ongoing discussion, though it seems whatever consensus there is hasn't been applied yet because everything here moves at a snail pace and because of the comment of that one mod in the discussion thread I though it was unless these feats were always valid and they were just being ignorant or something

Lets just wait and see what the mods say

For what it's worth at least Invincible treats the crossovers canon to itself (Dr Seismic returns and is imprisoned in The Pact, we later see him break out of prison in the main comic/Mark references meeting Spider-Man in Brit), and it is meant to be Prime Mark as said by Benito Cereno who's a long time collaborator and is even currently writing Capes

Interesting. Either way this feat doesn't upscale anything and is just support. I can fix my calc of the moon feat later.

I think I expressed my concerns with this some time ago

I don't think any of the Earth heroes would scale to Geldarians or beginning of series Tech Jacket here, so there shouldn't be anything crazy like Bulletproof becoming 5-B. Nolan thought defeating the Kresh was impressive enough to ask for aid against Viltrumites from the Geldarians, so it reasonable to not have them be apart of the "most of the universe" that Pre-Evolution Allen is stronger than. If I was implementing a 5-B chain scale to 1/3 of the verse with all of them weaker than Viltrumites I would've mentioned it.

 

[Tahoy49574]

This calc was accepted, upgrading Robot and Black Sampson's lifting strength to Class M. 2338.43 Tons for Black Sampson and 10554.76 Tons for Robot. Anyone who scales to either of them would also receive this rating, including Yeti.

I wanted to wait for this one as Robot's profile is horrible needs a complete overhaul with more keys and this should specifically scale to his Heavy Drone why is it treated as "basic" isn't it clear it's way above everything else he had at the time

 

[Tahoy49574]

so it reasonable to not have them be apart of the "most of the universe" that Pre-Evolution Allen is stronger than.

Him being stronger than most of the universe is why they sent him solo against a viltrumite tho

 

[FusionPrime0]

I wanted to wait for this one as Robot's profile is horrible needs a complete overhaul with more keys and this should specifically scale to his Heavy Drone why is it treated as "basic" isn't it clear it's way above everything else he had at the time

fair enough. I can remove it or add Class M with heavy drone. Robot's profile can still be overhauled later.

Him being stronger than most of the universe is why they sent him solo against a viltrumite tho

At the same time we don't know how the coalition was interacting with the Geldarians and Kresh at that point. At the beginning of Tech Jacket it's stated they had been at war for centuries. And it's stated that there wasn't an opponent found who could not fall to his might. If the Geldarians were involved with the coalition at this point they should've received aid in their war, yet they didn't, and Allen would've been a massive asset to aid them. Pairing this with the fact that Nolan considering beating the Kresh as impressive enough to have soldiers that could do something to a Viltrumite while Allen was no diffed, I think it would make the most sense that the Geldarians and Kresh weren't included in that statement.

Edit: I was rereading and Geldaria was specifically stated to be recently added to the coalition in issue 24.

 

[Tahoy49574]

Edit: I was rereading and Geldaria was specifically stated to be recently added to the coalition in issue 24.

This is actually very fair

 

[Qawsedf234]

This is conflating the ray's piercing damage with its AoE. The argument is not that the Infinity Ray didn't do literally any damage to Viltrum at all, the argument is that Viltrum did not end up entirely destroyed just by the ray hitting it and required Mark, Nolan, and Thaedus to cause the planet to explode, which is what usually happens when the Infinity Ray pierces larger celestial bodies, like a star for example, which we see going supernova in the show (before you say "different continuity", this is simply giving a visual to the statement in the comic which previously lacked a visual, so I don't see any reason to not use this for the same reason we use Anime Roshi's moon bust for the feat's timeframe). Note that the statement I just linked also specifically notes that stars and planets, along with everything else in its path ends up specifically "destroyed", not simply having a hole put through it.

The issue I have here is the statement used in the comic, that being "If the core has time to stabilize". This is shown before with the beam causes an asteroid to break apart and then causing a spiral of asteroid impacts. If a planet's core has time to stabilize after one shot, that doesn't mean the planet is more durable than a star in my mind. A stellar core weighs 113,000x that of the Earth, so it being destabilized and collapsing afterwards seems more due to weight than it is due to durability.

Additionally, the explosion of Viltruim, which 100% is not Tier 4, still knocked out a lot of the cast temporarily.

To me, this is the nature of the gun (derupting whatever it hits) as being more effective on stars than on planets, rather than Viltrum being more durable than a star. Since Space Racer's gun has essentially durability negation anyway, attempting to scale durability to a hax feat isn't allowed.

LS was accepted as well, but I've heard due to site standards it may not be, even though the lifting strength page states finding lifting strength from throwing objects is viable. If accepted LS would be upgraded to 2.62228e+35 N or Multi-Stellar. Considering the next highest LS feat (Class Z) is from 37 injured Viltrumites and isn't presented as a cap, it's not necessarily an outlier.

You're misreading the page:

Likewise, throwing an object a certain height upwards can be used as a lifting feat, as doing so would require greater strength than merely lifting the object.

Tech Jacket can scale to throwing the ship but you're trying to scale him to throwing stellar ejecta, which is a result from an impact. He would have no reason to scale to the figure you're proposing.

Also like. What do you mean "not necessarily an outlier". That Class Z feat is 31 million times lower that Tech Jacket and is performed by 37 people working together who individually probably stomp that version of Tech Jacket.

Kresh ships would need to be able to survive re-entry into their own atmosphere, which is so dense that they need special full body suits to survive in other environments. Re-entry into Earth's atmosphere can already reach up to 7,000 degrees Fahrenheit, so re-entry into a far denser atmosphere would reach far higher temperatures. On the other hand, the surface of the sun is only 10,000 degrees Fahrenheit. Due to the nature of their home planet their ships would likely need to be able to survive temperatures relative to that of the surface of the sun, so I doubt it would randomly explode near the sun's surface due to the heat.

The sun's corona/photosphere reaches 1,000,000 to 2,000,000 Kelvin

Surprisingly, after reaching its minimum at the top ofthe photosphere (approximately 4200 K), the temperaturestarts to rise slowly throughout the entire chromosphere (upto around 20 000 K), followed by a very steep and sharp in-crease in the narrow transition region (few 100 000 K) up to around 2 MK in the corona (Fig. 1). Although while going continuously away from the energy producing solar core, in-stead of a temperature decrease, the tendency of temperature increase was found (Fig. 1). Maintaining this high tempera-ture requires some sort of input of energy because, without an additional heating the entire corona would cool down by thermodynamic relaxation on a minute-scale. Surprisingly, this non-thermal energy excess to sustain the solar corona is just a reasonably small fraction of the total solar output (seeTable 1
Source

This ship would be incinerated long before it reaches the Sun's surface. You even see it explode in the same layer as the Sun's corona in the comic panel.

Also since the moon didn't destroy Mars it might break the KE rules in which case GPE would be used, which gets to barely Tier 5.

It does break KE rules:

There is a destruction/AP calculation contradicting a kinetic energy calculation. The destruction/AP calculation would take priority over the kinetic energy calculation in this case as the AP calculation would be a better proof in regards to how much damage he/she is capable of in an attack.

• For example, if a character launches a 200kg metal ball against a common wall at Mach 300, but the wall remains largely undamaged, the energy required to cause the minor damage on the wall would take priority over the kinetic energy derived from speed in this case.

The only thing from the scene that could be calced and be useable is the cracks I think it made when it hit Mars.

I made a blog detailing all of the multipliers we are given in the Tech Jacket comic. This would split Tech Jacket's 2 keys into 3. I will give a TLDR here:

After the Dragon Ball thread, our multiplier standards are stricter. Per the rules

However, a good statement alone is not enough to get a high multiplier accepted. The amount of extra evidence one has to provide to get larger multipliers accepted is proportional to the size of the multiplier. For lower multipliers, like things much less than times 100, evidence can take the form of a clear increase in combat strength against priorly equal or superior opponents. For higher multipliers, like times 100 and above, the importance of stronger evidence, such as feats displaying power of a similar magnitude as the value the multiplier points to or the multipliers importance to the plot of the story, and a higher amount of evidence becomes increasingly necessary.

You are required to show supporting feats for these multipliers to be valid. If EoS Tech Jacket got a 100x amp, you have to show a feat that's superior to their current rating that supports a 100x rating.

 

[Tahoy49574]

The issue I have here is the statement used in the comic, that being "If the core has time to stabilize". This is shown before with the beam causes an asteroid to break apart and then causing a spiral of asteroid impacts. If a planet's core has time to stabilize after one shot, that doesn't mean the planet is more durable than a star in my mind. A stellar core weighs 113,000x that of the Earth, so it being destabilized and collapsing afterwards seems more due to weight than it is due to durability.

Additionally, the explosion of Viltruim, which 100% is not Tier 4, still knocked out a lot of the cast temporarily.

To me, this is the nature of the gun (derupting whatever it hits) as being more effective on stars than on planets, rather than Viltrum being more durable than a star. Since Space Racer's gun has essentially durability negation anyway, attempting to scale durability to a hax feat isn't allowed.

You're misreading the page:

Tech Jacket can scale to throwing the ship but you're trying to scale him to throwing stellar ejecta, which is a result from an impact. He would have no reason to scale to the figure you're proposing.

Also like. What do you mean "not necessarily an outlier". That Class Z feat is 31 million times lower that Tech Jacket and is performed by 37 people working together who individually probably stomp that version of Tech Jacket.

The sun's corona/photosphere reaches 1,000,000 to 2,000,000 Kelvin

This ship would be incinerated long before it reaches the Sun's surface. You even see it explode in the same layer as the Sun's corona in the comic panel.

It does break KE rules:

The only thing from the scene that could be calced and be useable is the cracks I think it made when it hit Mars.

After the Dragon Ball thread, our multiplier standards are stricter. Per the rules

You are required to show supporting feats for these multipliers to be valid. If EoS Tech Jacket got a 100x amp, you have to show a feat that's superior to their current rating that supports a 100x rating.

Please check this other Invincible CRT

 

[Qawsedf234]

Please check this other Invincible CRT

Just explain your rebuttal

EDIT: Wait this is just a thread promotion

 

[Tahoy49574]

Just explain your rebuttal

This is not my thread

 

[GodlyCharmander]

This is conflating the ray's piercing damage with its AoE. The argument is not that the Infinity Ray didn't do literally any damage to Viltrum at all, the argument is that Viltrum did not end up entirely destroyed just by the ray hitting it and required Mark, Nolan, and Thaedus to cause the planet to explode, which is what usually happens when the Infinity Ray pierces larger celestial bodies, like a star for example, which we see going supernova in the show (before you say "different continuity", this is simply giving a visual to the statement in the comic which previously lacked a visual, so I don't see any reason to not use this for the same reason we use Anime Roshi's moon bust for the feat's timeframe). Note that the statement I just linked also specifically notes that stars and planets, along with everything else in its path ends up specifically "destroyed", not simply having a hole put through it.

It doesn't have AoE, it's simply a ray of energy, it doesn't generate shockwaves, explosions, NONE OF THAT, that's only a byproduct of the material being split apart. It destroys a star because the dense-as-**** core is suddenly and quickly split by a ray at relativistic speeds. OBVIOUSLY if you do that to a core that's less dense, that has less energy, it won't have nearly the same effect.

Literally, this whole premise is just misrepresenting what the gun does and attaching a verifiably false AoE due to misunderstanding of physics. This literally does not have legs to stand on, no.

 

[FusionPrime0]

The issue I have here is the statement used in the comic, that being "If the core has time to stabilize". This is shown before with the beam causes an asteroid to break apart and then causing a spiral of asteroid impacts. If a planet's core has time to stabilize after one shot, that doesn't mean the planet is more durable than a star in my mind. A stellar core weighs 113,000x that of the Earth, so it being destabilized and collapsing afterwards seems more due to weight than it is due to durability.

I'm not sure what point you're making. Is it that the planet isn't massive enough to collapse? The gun is also stated to destroy planets.

Additionally, the explosion of Viltruim, which 100% is not Tier 4, still knocked out a lot of the cast temporarily.

Kreeg is literally straining his face muscles in that panel. Also this doesn't really affect anything, I'm not proposing they scale to the full yield, what we scale them to specifically and how we do it would need another thread.

To me, this is the nature of the gun (derupting whatever it hits) as being more effective on stars than on planets, rather than Viltrum being more durable than a star. Since Space Racer's gun has essentially durability negation anyway, attempting to scale durability to a hax feat isn't allowed.

It being specifically more effective on stars than planets is never stated or implied in the story. In the statement of the gun's power it also lists how it destroyed planets as well, not just stars. There's also nothing implying it has durability negation, all we see is the ray piercing through everything we sit it hit (and the statements of it destroying celestial bodies). There's also that Thaedus's only knowledge of the infinity ray is through Nolan's book, where in my opinion it's pretty blatant with its wording of destroying planets and stars here. Even if you wanna say the gun has some weird hax/dura neg, Thaedus wouldn't know this and instead be going off the planet/star busting stuff and he thought that level of power would not be enough to destroy Viltrum on it's own.

You're misreading the page:

Tech Jacket can scale to throwing the ship but you're trying to scale him to throwing stellar ejecta, which is a result from an impact. He would have no reason to scale to the figure you're proposing.

okay, lemme take off the lifting strength part then

The sun's corona/photosphere reaches 1,000,000 to 2,000,000 Kelvin

The photosphere is only 4000-6500 K. I didn't know the corona was that hot though.

This ship would be incinerated long before it reaches the Sun's surface. You even see it explode in the same layer as the Sun's corona in the comic panel.

We see coalition ships just chilling in what seems like the Sun's corona. The Kresh were superior to the Geldarians who later joined the coalition and Nolan considered defeating them impressive enough to recruit Geldarians to fight against Viltrumites. Their ship technology shouldn't be massively less advanced than the rest of the galaxy. The panel shows it hitting the actual visible part of the sun itself.

It does break KE rules:

The only thing from the scene that could be calced and be useable is the cracks I think it made when it hit Mars.

What about GPE?

After the Dragon Ball thread, our multiplier standards are stricter. Per the rules

You are required to show supporting feats for these multipliers to be valid. If EoS Tech Jacket got a 100x amp, you have to show a feat that's superior to their current rating that supports a 100x rating.

There is him downscaling from the Universe's Immune System that could destroy Galaxies overtime, which would scale it to the destruction of various celestial bodies at least. Though that and other statements could also make it wayyy higher than everything else and way above the 100x amp to where it wouldn't support it and just generally be an outlier when put in the context of the Invincible universe as a whole. Also the statement is "nearly 100 fold" so it's technically slightly less than 100. Would say using a 90x or 95x multiplier for example be fine? and what about the rest of them, do you think they're okay?

 

[StoneKillerz12]

It doesn't have AoE, it's simply a ray of energy,

Except...it does. We literally see objects pierced by it violently explode, including that star. Keep in mind that simply "destabilizing" the core of a star would not cause it to go supernova, since that's not what supernovae even are. Perhaps AoE isn't the correct word, probably more like the gun's recoil damage.

it doesn't generate shockwaves, explosions, NONE OF THAT,

Nobody here claimed it did, that's not what the "AoE" in question was referring to.

that's only a byproduct of the material being split apart.

Not necessarily? Putting a hole through a star would not on its own cause it to go supernova, gravity would fix that very quickly. Despite that, the Infinity Ray induced a supernova only after it pierced through the star.

It destroys a star because the dense-as-**** core is suddenly and quickly split by a ray at relativistic speeds.

Again, this would not cause a star to go supernova. Supernovae occur when a star exhausts all of its hydrogen-based mass and is converted into fuel. Simply putting a hole through a star's core would not cause a star to be completely obliterated.

OBVIOUSLY if you do that to a core that's less dense, that has less energy, it won't have nearly the same effect.

...except again, the statement explicitly confirms that the gun can also completely destroy normal planets on its own, no Viltrumite trio interference needed. OP already explains why it's more likely this is an upscale for Viltrum rather than this statement being contradicted by Viltrum.

Literally, this whole premise is just misrepresenting what the gun does and attaching a verifiably false AoE due to misunderstanding of physics.

Except it really isn't, we know via both statements and on-screen showings that objects that get pierced by the Infinity Ray break apart and/or explode on their own, no Viltrumite interference needed. Viltrum and actually Viltrumites themselves are the only instances of the Infinity Ray's shot not causing the object it pierces to violently explode as a by-product. There is no "verifiably false" AoE, this is literally just how the Infinity Ray is shown to work, and you're trying to suggest that simply putting a hole through a star's core is enough to cause the entire star to be completely destroyed which is absolutely not the case nor how supernovae work.

This literally does not have legs to stand on, no.

Agree to disagree.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'm not sure what point you're making. Is it that the planet isn't massive enough to collapse

Based on Thaedus, no. The core would stabilize, which is why the Viltrumites needed to do this fast so they wouldn't die on impact with it.

Kreeg is literally straining his face muscles in that panel.

And that defeats my point how? Allen, Nolan, Mark, Battle Beast, and plenty of others are knocked out temporarily. The blasts stuns them all, which doesn't make sense if they're solar system busters.

I'm not proposing they scale to the full yield, what we scale them to specifically and how we do it would need another thread.

I mean, no. You have to propose what they should scale to here. If it's a thread determining a scaling chain I get, but the yield itself would need to be determined here.

It being specifically more effective on stars than planets is never stated or implied in the story. In the statement of the gun's power it also lists how it destroyed planets as well, not just stars. There's also nothing implying it has durability negation, all we see is the ray piercing through everything we sit it hit (and the statements of it destroying celestial bodies). There's also that Thaedus's only knowledge of the infinity ray is through Nolan's book, where in my opinion it's pretty blatant with its wording of destroying planets and stars here. Even if you wanna say the gun has some weird hax/dura neg, Thaedus wouldn't know this and instead be going off the planet/star busting stuff and he thought that level of power would not be enough to destroy Viltrum on it's own.

As I said before, Thaedus knows about the gun, knows it destablizes stuff, and then comments that they need to be fast before the core fixes itself. Small things like asteroids blow up before they get split apart and stars collapse, but Viltrum's core is able to stabilize. That doesn't make Viltrum more durable than a star, it means that Viltrium is better at handling the effects from Space Racer's gun than a star is.

We see coalition and Viltrumite ships just chilling in what seems like the Sun's corona. The Kresh were superior to the Geldarians who later joined the coalition and Nolan considered defeating them impressive enough to recruit Geldarians to fight against Viltrumites.

That doesn't make the Kesh's ships suddenly immune to high temperatures. You would need to show them being immune to that heat for that to be a valid point.

Their ship technology shouldn't be massively less advanced than the rest of the galaxy. The panel shows it hitting the actual visible part of the sun itself.

The panel shows it blowing up in front of the sun in the same aura as the corona in my view.

What about GPE?

Why would that scale to LS? He's not lifting it, it's the after effect on an attack. If you mean the Moon the same issue applies, moving it at that speed is contradicted by the scene showing the lack of damage. The only thing you can calc from it is the damage to Mars.

There is him downscaling from the Universe's Immune System that could destroy Galaxies overtime,

This isn't a scalable feat, since we don't use it now. The swarm also does this piecemeal.

Also the statement is "nearly 100 fold" so it's technically slightly less than 100. Would say using a 90x or 95x multiplier for example be fine?

No. For a multiplier that high you need evidence backing it. It can no longer go Feat A -> 100+x Amp or 100+x Amp Chain. It goes Feat A -> Supporting Feat B (~20-30x A) -> 100x Amp

 

[GodlyCharmander]

We literally see objects pierced by it violently explode

That's because the object is being split apart, that's the speed of the matter scattering, and that's dependent on its mass and how fast it's being split, it is not a property of the gun.

Keep in mind that simply "destabilizing" the core of a star would not cause it to go supernova, since that's not what supernovae even are

Yes it would, if it was fast enough. A supernova just means "a luminious explosion from a star", btw. The method which that is achieved is irrelevant.

Not necessarily? Putting a hole through a star would not on its own cause it to go supernova, gravity would fix that very quickly. Despite that, the Infinity Ray induced a supernova only after it pierced through the star.

You're pretending speed and sudden momentum wouldn't make your argument meaningless here.

Again, this would not cause a star to go supernova

Yes it would. Why are you debating about a subject you don't understand?

...except again, the statement explicitly confirms that the gun can also completely destroy normal planets on its own, no Viltrumite trio interference needed. OP already explains why it's more likely this is an upscale for Viltrum rather than this statement being contradicted by Viltrum.

Great, OP is wrong. The planet has no super-gravity and it is not made by a super-durable material. It is simply a contradiction, or the concept of "destruction" is being used loosely (it makes the planet crumble, not necessarily beyond GBE)

Except it really isn't, we know via both statements and on-screen showings that objects that get pierced by the Infinity Ray break apart and/or explode on their own, no Viltrumite interference needed

The word "explosion" isn't used once in that statement.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

The issue I have here is the statement used in the comic, that being "If the core has time to stabilize".

This would suggest the ray did not manage to overcome the planet's GBE though, no? How would the core manage to restabilize at all if the Infinity Ray already provided enough energy to destroy the planet?

This is shown before with the beam causes an asteroid to break apart and then causing a spiral of asteroid impacts.

This is an example of the AoE aspect of the Infinity Ray I brought up in action. Every single object that the Infinity Ray has shot through in the series with the only exceptions being Viltrum and Viltrumites themselves, end up completely exploding seconds after the Ray pierces said object, which is 100% consistent with the statement in Nolan's book about how the Infinity Ray destroys everything in its path completely and not simply putting a hole through it.

If a planet's core has time to stabilize after one shot, that doesn't mean the planet is more durable than a star in my mind.

I mean, that's kind of the point I'm getting at. The fact the planet's core didn't just self-destruct on its own after the Infinity Ray shot through it, in the same way that all of the other objects we see the Infinity Ray shoot through, and was going to restabilize itself from said self-destructive recoil effect that the Infinity Ray causes makes it pretty clear that, at minimum, Viltrum is to some degree far stronger than an ordinary planet, which is somewhat consistent with the existence of Smart Atoms in the verse. We also already accept planets in fiction having 4-C to higher GBE via much less. It's specifically because it was going to restabilize itself at all from a 4-C self-destructive attack that means it is to some degree more durable than a star for me.

A stellar core weighs 113,000x that of the Earth, so it being destabilized and collapsing afterwards seems more due to weight than it is due to durability.

Except the core of a star collapsing would not cause the star to be completely destroyed, or at least in any way even remotely similar to the way the Infinity Ray destroyed this star. Supernovae occur specifically by a star exhausting all of the hydrogen-based mass inside of it by converting into helium, just collapsing the core of a star would not cause the entire star to blow up violently in a way resembling a supernova.

Additionally, the explosion of Viltruim, which 100% is not Tier 4, still knocked out a lot of the cast temporarily.

Even if we ignore the Infinity Ray not being able to solo the planet on its own, there are still arguments for the planet's KE being close to Low 4-C based on the show's timeframe, however I unfortunately lost the calc where I saw this end. Also if we were to take the latter at face value, it would downgrade the verse to High 6-B due to inverse-square law, so I don't think this is necessarily a good argument.

To me, this is the nature of the gun (derupting whatever it hits) as being more effective on stars than on planets, rather than Viltrum being more durable than a star.

Well I mean, the statement specifically notes that the gun can individually destroy planets as well, so I don't think there's any evidence for this being true. As OP explained, the narrative consistency of the Infinity Ray's power makes it more likely Viltrum is just a far stronger planet than any ordinary one, if you ask me.

Since Space Racer's gun has essentially durability negation anyway, attempting to scale durability to a hax feat isn't allowed.

How exactly is it durability negation? The gun is specifically noted for its raw power rather than it being a supernatural ability to destroy anything, which Invincible has made clear distinctions for in the past, like Brit being just straight up invulernable rather than just super durable.

You're misreading the page:

Tech Jacket can scale to throwing the ship but you're trying to scale him to throwing stellar ejecta, which is a result from an impact. He would have no reason to scale to the figure you're proposing.

Well, wouldn't that impact only have been possible if the KE of the ship being thrown was comparable to the KE of the stellar ejecta? How would Low 5-B kinetic energy cause a 5-A explosion?

Also like. What do you mean "not necessarily an outlier". That Class Z feat is 31 million times lower that Tech Jacket and is performed by 37 people working together who individually probably stomp that version of Tech Jacket.

The Class Z LS feat for the 37 Viltrumites is the absolute minimum, since we don't know how far they could be splitting the planet apart, nor how much they'd need to move to split it. For all we know, they could've been splitting the planet at Relativistic+ speeds and able to do so just by moving their hands an arms distance, which would easily be a Multi-Stellar LS. We already accept the Viltrum feat even after being divided by 3 as higher than the Earth-splitting feat, would the former also not inherently be contradicted if we were to assume the minimum was the maximum?

The sun's corona/photosphere reaches 1,000,000 to 2,000,000 Kelvin

This ship would be incinerated long before it reaches the Sun's surface. You even see it explode in the same layer as the Sun's corona in the comic panel.

But didn't you just say the explosion was caused by the ship's impact? What else would've caused the explosion then?

It does break KE rules:

I don't disagree with this.

The only thing from the scene that could be calced and be useable is the cracks I think it made when it hit Mars.

What's wrong with using the Moon's GPE?

After the Dragon Ball thread, our multiplier standards are stricter. Per the rules

You are required to show supporting feats for these multipliers to be valid. If EoS Tech Jacket got a 100x amp, you have to show a feat that's superior to their current rating that supports a 100x rating.

I don't agree with the 100x multiplier, but the 10x multiplier should definitely be consistent for reasons we already list on Thragg's profile.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

That's because the object is being split apart, that's the speed of the matter scattering, and that's dependent on its mass and how fast it's being split, it is not a property of the gun.

I mean, no? That's not what the Infinity Ray does, it fires a hole straight through whatever it fires into, it doesn't physically move anything. The object's explosion is very much being caused by some sort of the chain reaction originating from the gun.

Yes it would, if it was fast enough. A supernova just means "a luminious explosion from a star", btw. The method which that is achieved is irrelevant.

No, it isn't. That is objectively not what actually causes a supernova. The method achieved is absolutely not "irrelevant", the sole cause of a supernova is explicitly it exhausting the hydrogen-based mass. Why did you convienently ignore the parts of my reply which explain this?

You're pretending speed and sudden momentum wouldn't make your argument meaningless here.

Literally how is this relevant to what I was arguing? You claimed that the Infinity Ray just putting a hole through the star's core is enough to cause it to explode, and I respond by explaining how this is not the case. What part of any of that has to do with "speed and sudden momentum"?

Yes it would. Why are you debating about a subject you don't understand?

No, it wouldn't, and I've already explained multiple times why that is the case. Acting smug and arrogant by pretending you know what people do or do not actually understand does not help your case here, at all. And for the record, I'm currently studying to get an undergrad degree in astrophysics.

Great, OP is wrong. The planet has no super-gravity

The handbook has already been accepted as being mostly unusable in another CRT, therefore the idea that Viltrum only has 1.25x Earth's gravity could very much be wrong. The fact that characters like Universa (whose planet is 8x bigger than Earth and based off of the statements in supplementary material about the civilization, should be as dense as Earth as well) are nowhere near as strong as Viltrumites despite her planet having 6.4x greater gravity than Viltrum, and we know that stronger gravity on a planet equates to the species' strength due to the lore surrounding Rognarr, makes it entirely possible Viltrum's gravity is in fact far greater than what the handbook proposes, for the same reason Omni-Man's lifting strength isn't capped at Class 100 based on what the handbook says.

and it is not made by a super-durable material.

How do you know this? Viltrumites are stated multiple times to be centuries more advanced than Earth and they specifically utilize weaponry on their planet tough enough to kill other Viltrumites in a brutal fashion. It is entirely reasonable to think Viltrum is made of super-durable material.

It is simply a contradiction, or the concept of "destruction" is being used loosely (it makes the planet crumble, not necessarily beyond GBE)

I don't think so. The story Nolan wrote about the Infinity Ray is used as a major plot point for the arcs leading up to the Viltrumite War, it would make zero narrative sense for the story to be wrong on the sole reason of its existence.

The word "explosion" isn't used once in that statement.

I never claimed it was for that specific statement. I claimed that objects shot by the Infinity Ray are all shown either exploding or breaking apart after the Infinity Ray pierces it.

 

[Qawsedf234]

This would suggest the ray did not manage to overcome the planet's GBE though, no?

It destabilized the planet but not enough to shatter it. Since different objects have different ways to stay together, this doesn't mean anything.

How would the core manage to restabilize at all if the Infinity Ray already provided enough energy to destroy the planet?

Because it didn't provide enough energy to destroy the planet. It destabilized it, but not enough to cause a chain breakdown.

This is an example of the AoE aspect of the Infinity Ray I brought up in action. Every single object that the Infinity Ray has shot through in the series with the only exceptions being Viltrum and Viltrumites themselves, end up completely exploding seconds after the Ray pierces said object, which is 100% consistent with the statement in Nolan's book about how the Infinity Ray destroys everything in its path completely and not simply putting a hole through it.

This doesn't make sense since Viltrum also had a giant hole punched through it and the ray caused notable damage. It just wouldn't have caused Viltrum to explode by itself, but it still caused the damage you're referring to.

other objects we see the Infinity Ray shoot through, and was going to restabilize itself from said self-destructive recoil effect that the Infinity Ray causes makes it pretty clear that, at minimum, Viltrum is to some degree far stronger than an ordinary planet, which is somewhat consistent with the existence of Smart Atoms in the verse

Smart Atoms require things to manipulate them. You have to show the planet has Smart Atom manipulation for this to be at all valid.

We also already accept planets in fiction having 4-C to higher GBE via much less

No.

Namek is debunked and we're not using it. One Piece has actually story based and map based evidence. Viltrum has a stated gravity of like 1.2g and no size statmeents. It has nothing like Toriko and One Piece's Earth has for supporting a Tier 4 rating.

means it is to some degree more durable than a star for me.

And I disagree with that notion. To me it's big enough to hold together but not so big that it implodes.

Except the core of a star collapsing would not cause the star to be completely destroyed, or at least in any way even remotely similar to the way the Infinity Ray destroyed this star. Supernovae occur specifically by a star exhausting all of the hydrogen-based mass inside of it by converting into helium, just collapsing the core of a star would not cause the entire star to blow up violently in a way resembling a supernova.

If you destabilize the core of a star, to the point where you get run-awat fusion or a cenetral mass collapse, you can force an explosion to my knowledge of stellar mechanics.

Even if we ignore the Infinity Ray not being able to solo the planet on its own, there are still arguments for the planet's KE being close to Low 4-C based on the show's timeframe, however I unfortunately lost the calc where I saw this end. Also if we were to take the latter at face value, it would downgrade the verse to High 6-B due to inverse-square law, so I don't think this is necessarily a good argument.

The show is a different canon and the point about them being knocked out is that even woth the show end they're unable to withstand the explosion with no damage. Something that doesn't make sense if they're star busters.

Well, wouldn't that impact only have been possible if the KE of the ship being thrown was comparable to the KE of the stellar ejecta? How would Low 5-B kinetic energy cause a 5-A explosion?

I don't believe the ship ever hit the Sun. My point is that even if it did, no one scales to what is ejected. The ship has its own mass and if its thrown relativistic effects only increases the mass by orders of magnitude. But Tech Jacket doesn't scale to the star material in either end.

For all we know, they could've been splitting the planet at Relativistic+ speeds and able to do so just by moving their hands an arms distance, which would easily be a Multi-Stellar LS.

For all we know it could take them putting in 100% effort to do it. Making crazy high end justifications does not mean a showing thirty one million times greater done by a character dozens of times weaker is consistent.

But didn't you just say the explosion was caused by the ship's impact?

No, I said that even if the ship hit Tech Jacket doesn't get a LS rating. I don't think it ever hit and the explosion is just an artistic effect to show it blew up outside the Sun.

What's wrong with using the Moon's GPE?

The KE from the scene does not match it. By moving the Moon on screen and it doing barely anything, the feat is just mostly unusable.

I don't agree with the 100x multiplier, but the 10x multiplier should definitely be consistent for reasons we already list on Thragg's profile.

A 10x Amp would be acceptable but that requires the OP to change their blog to reflect that.

I don't want to ge bogged down in this, so this is my vote

• Viltrum isn't something you get AP from
• Tech Jacket's Sun throw is both not an AP feat and doesn't scale to LS
• The Tick Moon isn't usable
• A 10x Amp is probably fine

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I mean, no? That's not what the Infinity Ray does, it fires a hole straight through whatever it fires into, it doesn't physically move anything. The object's explosion is very much being caused by some sort of the chain reaction originating from the gun.

"Physics? No way. What happens is some weird magic that's never stated anywhere."

If you blow a hole in a star's core, the collapsing super-dense matter will implode. The same won't happen to a smaller, less dense core. It's not really difficult. Also, admitting is a chain reaction solves your problem.

supernova is explicitly it exhausting the hydrogen-based mass

That's you making a whole text while using one definition of a supernova, and thinking that's the only one that exists.

"A supernova (pl.: supernovae) is a powerful and luminous explosion of a star." - Wikepedia.

That's the definition. Yes, in real life, it can only happen via nuclear fusion, or at late stage stars. But if anything else causes a star to explode, it is, by definition, a Supernova.

Also your argument doesn't make sense, if you claim a supernova can only happen via exhausting the hydrogen mass, are you claiming the Infinite Ray gun does exactly that? Because that would be ludicrous.

You claimed that the Infinity Ray just putting a hole through the star's core is enough to cause it to explode

It is. A big hole going from end to end. That would easily cause a super-dense core to implode and make the star go boom.

we know that stronger gravity on a planet equates to the species' strength due to the lore surrounding Rognarr

"It happens with one species, so that's the standard for all sources of strength in the verse". You can't "gravity scale" planets.

Also who said anything about handbooks?

How do you know this?

Burden of proof is in your court.

Viltrumites are stated multiple times to be centuries more advanced than Earth

That wouldn't make 100% of the soil any denser. Also they actively use their own physical strength and enslave other planets for THEIR minerals.

I don't think so. The story Nolan wrote about the Infinity Ray is used as a major plot point for the arcs leading up to the Viltrumite War, it would make zero narrative sense for the story to be wrong on the sole reason of its existence.

A contradiction is a mistake on the writer, not on the character. The fact it doesn't make sense doesn't stop a contradiction, it's why it's bad in the first place.

I never claimed it was for that specific statement. I claimed that objects shot by the Infinity Ray are all shown either exploding or breaking apart after the Infinity Ray pierces it.

Stars which are nuclear reactors explode, yes, but nothing implies a planet just explodes, it is stated that they get destroyed, which can have a wide range of definitions.

And for the record, I'm currently studying to get an undergrad degree in astrophysics.

Good for you, hope you make it. I retract my earlier statement, but conceding that you may have technical knowledge doesn't change the fact you need to understand how to engage with evidence properly, that's gonna be important.

No, it wouldn't, and I've already explained multiple times why that is the case

You haven't.

The hole the infinity ray gun puts on a celestial body represents a negligible amount of its total mass, sure, but it also suddenly removed a column of plasma spanning the full diameter of the star, creating perfect vacuum tunnel straight through the core. The pressure of the core and the vacuum would make it collapse almost instantly, in microseconds, at the center of the tunnel.

A planet's core has ~360 GPa pressure at the center and is held together by self-gravity and material strength. The core of a planet has no internal energy source that can run away.

Whereas a star has an internal pressure several orders of magnitudes above that, and is held together by hydrostatic equilibrium, the outer layers, no longer fully supported, begin to fall inward. This compresses and heats the remaining core material.

So yeah, there's logic on why the chain reaction doesn't work on a regular planet, but it would still destroy it, just not via an explosion

 

[FusionPrime0]

And that defeats my point how? Allen, Nolan, Mark, Battle Beast, and plenty of others are knocked out temporarily. The blasts stuns them all, which doesn't make sense if they're solar system busters.

This wouldn't make sense currently either, at the distance they were at they would have like low Tier 6 durability if the explosion was just 5-B/5-A.

I mean, no. You have to propose what they should scale to here. If it's a thread determining a scaling chain I get, but the yield itself would need to be determined here.

There would need to be a calc made for that then since the core's durability would be like 4-C/4-B with the planet itself being higher. And currently we only scale them to blowing through the bottom portion of the planet so that would need a recalculation. Both of these would change a lot depending on whether we scale the gun to 4-C or 4-B, or if we accept just the planet part High 5-A, and Viltrum upscaling that. I think it would be more productive if we decide on that first so like 3 different calcs for the same thing don't need to be made and accepted. I can do it if it's needed tho.

As I said before, Thaedus knows about the gun, knows it destablizes stuff, and then comments that they need to be fast before the core fixes itself. Small things like asteroids blow up before they get split apart and stars collapse, but Viltrum's core is able to stabilize. That doesn't make Viltrum more durable than a star, it means that Viltrium is better at handling the effects from Space Racer's gun than a star is.

Okay, the effects of space racer's gun is a release of energy though. If you're saying the gun destabilizes the core of stars to destroy them, then there can be a calc made for the energy required to do that. To my knowledge it'd either be through depleting it's fuel through fusing a lot of elements together or negating the star's fusion output. Also what about non-main sequence stars? The book says that it destroys "anything" it comes into contact with. It also usually destroys planets, so if the star stuff is bunk then there's still that.

That doesn't make the Kesh's ships suddenly immune to high temperatures. You would need to show them being immune to that heat for that to be a valid point.

They are more technologically advanced than one of the members of the coalition and considered pretty powerful. Why would their heat resistance capabilities be wayyy below most of the galaxy? Also since the solar corona is vastly less dense than something like Earth's atmosphere wouldn't the rate of heat transfer be far slower making their heat resistance not need to be that high?

The panel shows it blowing up in front of the sun in the same aura as the corona in my view.

it's on the main spherical part of the sun so ig agree to disagree?

Why would that scale to LS? He's not lifting it, it's the after effect on an attack. If you mean the Moon the same issue applies, moving it at that speed is contradicted by the scene showing the lack of damage.

I meant the moon yea.

The only thing you can calc from it is the damage to Mars.

Alright

This isn't a scalable feat, since we don't use it now. The swarm also does this piecemeal.

sure

No. For a multiplier that high you need evidence backing it. It can no longer go Feat A -> 100+x Amp or 100+x Amp Chain. It goes Feat A -> Supporting Feat B (~20-30x A) -> 100x Amp

I see, so currently only the currently accepted >10x colossus amp multiplier would be able to stand? There's nothing accepted for the solar disk feat rn, but it could potentially be a supporting feat in the future. Also is it like absolutely required for any amp/amp chain >100x to have a supporting feat even if the amp/amp chain is very well supported in the narrative?

All 3 of the multipliers are very integral to the plot of the TJ comics, the nearly 100x geldarians multiplier is the whole reason he's able to keep the TJ and that's what wins them the war, the later 2000x Geldarians multiplier is the entire reason the whole plot with Null is TJ digital even happens, and the colossus amp has like 6 pages describing the amp, one being an initial 10x boost before it talks about the insane magnitude the rest of the amp was and it set up the whole plot of the rest of the arc. The entire story of all of the Tech Jacket comics would be completely different without them.

 

[FusionPrime0]

I don't want to ge bogged down in this, so this is my vote

• Viltrum isn't something you get AP from
• Tech Jacket's Sun throw is both not an AP feat and doesn't scale to LS
• The Tick Moon isn't usable
• A 10x Amp is probably fine

noted, also the 10x amp was already accepted in a previous thread and has been applied to profiles, my goal was to expand the multipliers with the other statements we have.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Also is it like absolutely required for any amp/amp chain >100x to have a supporting feat even if the amp/amp chain is very well supported in the narrative?

Yes. Eother they get an amp and perform a much better fear like in God of Highschool or you show supporting showings. You can no longer just chainscale past a 100x amp without proper justification.

All 3 of the multipliers are very integral to the plot of the TJ comics, the nearly 100x geldarians multiplier is the whole reason he's able to keep the TJ and that's what wins them the war, the later 2000x Geldarians multiplier is the entire reason the whole plot with Null is TJ digital even happens, and the colossus amp has like 6 pages describing the amp, one being an initial 10x boost before it talks about the insane magnitude the rest of the amp was and it set up the whole plot of the rest of the arc. The entire story of all of the Tech Jacket comics would be completely different without them.

Dragon Ball (the manga) had this same issue. There were plenty of narrarive statements that gave an amp, but it was over used and chainscaled to unreasonable levels. While Dragon Ball is significantly worse than Invincible in this aspect (especially speed scaling), the principal remains the same. If you're saying someone got 2,000x stronger you have to show a feat that supports such an amp, like doing something 500x better casually than their other showings.

 

[Reyne]

Nolan's novel says that anything in the beams path is destroyed. That doesn't only mean the stars, planets, or ships would blow up, but that they can't stop it. He wrote that it blasts a path through anything just before that line.

What we see in the show is Mark's imagination of what he's reading. We see Space Racer on the cover, so he knows what he looks like, but he gets the color of the propulsion from Space Racer's bike wrong and the color of the beam from the Infinity Gun wrong.

A ship is more complex that a celestial body, or an asteroid. The ship that violently explodes does so with more force than the asteroid Space Racer was entombed in. So, the explosions inside each vessel can be attributed to machinery triggered by the hole created by the beam. Which tracks with the inconsistent manner in which each ship blows up (the beam that killed Kladd hit lower than the one during the montages moments later).

 

[FusionPrime0]

Nolan's novel says that anything in the beams path is destroyed. That doesn't only mean the stars, planets, or ships would blow up, but that they can't stop it. He wrote that it blasts a path through anything just before that line.

Yes, but it also transfers enough energy into celestial bodies to destroy them, whether that be from overcoming the gbe directly or possibly destabilizing the core in the case of stars. The argument is that Viltrum is durable enough that the energy transfer that the infinity ray applies to the celestial body isn't enough to destroy it, while also having credible statements of that energy transfer destroying other celestial bodies.

What we see in the show is Mark's imagination of what he's reading. We see Space Racer on the cover, so he knows what he looks like, but he gets the color of the propulsion from Space Racer's bike wrong and the color of the beam from the Infinity Gun wrong.

A ship is more complex that a celestial body, or an asteroid. The ship that violently explodes does so with more force than the asteroid Space Racer was entombed in. So, the explosions inside each vessel can be attributed to machinery triggered by the hole created by the beam. Which tracks with the inconsistent manner in which each ship blows up (the beam that killed Kladd hit lower than the one during the montages moments later).

None of this is really relevant because this is a comics thread

The hole the infinity ray gun puts on a celestial body represents a negligible amount of its total mass, sure, but it also suddenly removed a column of plasma spanning the full diameter of the star, creating perfect vacuum tunnel straight through the core. The pressure of the core and the vacuum would make it collapse almost instantly, in microseconds, at the center of the tunnel.

A planet's core has ~360 GPa pressure at the center and is held together by self-gravity and material strength. The core of a planet has no internal energy source that can run away.

Whereas a star has an internal pressure several orders of magnitudes above that, and is held together by hydrostatic equilibrium, the outer layers, no longer fully supported, begin to fall inward. This compresses and heats the remaining core material.

I'm not sure if just that small column removed by the ray would be enough to cause the star's collapse alone. Also what about non-main sequence stars? The wording implied that the ray can destroy any planet/star/ship, and red dwarfs, white dwarfs, and neutron stars can't collapse the same way main sequence stars do.

So yeah, there's logic on why the chain reaction doesn't work on a regular planet, but it would still destroy it, just not via an explosion

So are you in agreement with upscaling Viltrum due to this? Just not above stars because of the chain reaction aspect? Even if the infinity ray is like just 5-B in it's like aoe for lack of a better term, it would still make the core 5-B and the whole planet higher than that, which would be a decent upscale. Unless that methodology doesn't work. Since the ray would impart energy as it travels through a celestial body, we could divide the GBE by it's diameter to find the energy imparted per meter and apply that to Viltrum possibly? I'm not sure how this would be done exactly and am open to ideas.

 

[Reyne]

Yes, but it also transfers enough energy into celestial bodies to destroy them, whether that be from overcoming the gbe directly or possibly destabilizing the core in the case of stars. The argument is that Viltrum is durable enough that the energy transfer that the infinity ray applies to the celestial body isn't enough to destroy it, while also having credible statements of that energy transfer destroying other celestial bodies.

This was about the exact wording of the passage from the novel Nolan wrote, which put more towards simply being able to carve a path through anything rather than blowing it up. The original version of that novel panel puts a lot of emphasis on it going through anything. Even so, there does look to be exit flares on some of the things it goes through (asteroid, viltrumites, Viltrum), so there is some energy transfer when it goes through something. This isn't an MCU power stone situation however, where effects are magnified based on scale. The asteroid "breaking apart" is the only example we have for something being damaged outside of the hole being created. It wasn't a particularly fast reaction, and appears to have beam a large crack at best. Whatever the case, even if stuff where to blow up, the Viltrumite run happened so quickly that we couldn't have possibly known if such an effect did or did not cover the entire planet and how it would end up (simple cracking, total fragmentation, pulverization, etc.).

 

[FusionPrime0]

This was about the exact wording of the passage from the novel Nolan wrote, which put more towards simply being able to carve a path through anything rather than blowing it up. The original version of that novel panel puts a lot of emphasis on it going through anything. Even so, there does look to be exit flares on some of the things it goes through (asteroid, viltrumites, Viltrum), so there is some energy transfer when it goes through something. This isn't an MCU power stone situation however, where effects are magnified based on scale. The asteroid "breaking apart" is the only example we have for something being damaged outside of the hole being created. It wasn't a particularly fast reaction, and appears to have beam a large crack at best. Whatever the case, even if stuff where to blow up, the Viltrumite run happened so quickly that we couldn't have possibly known if such an effect did or did not cover the entire planet and how it would end up (simple cracking, total fragmentation, pulverization, etc.).

"planets, stars, ships--anything in their path is destroyed", literally just replace anything with any of the 3 examples given. "planets in their path are destroyed". It also mentions damaged artifacts as examples of evidence used to determine it's level of power, so it seemingly doesn't just blast a hole through things. If it was accepted as such then the KE of Viltrum blowing up should just be split in 3 and scaled to the Viltrumites, since the gun can't do anything else to celestial bodies other than shoot a miniscule hole through them.

 

[Hellbeast]

I agree with the 5-A for Viltrumite tiers but not the first plint

Neutral on the multipliers

 

[Phirse]

I have major disagreements with the first point where Viltrum gets 4-C durability. We see that the Infinity Ray is largely a piercing weapon and doesn't have star level AoE/DC. When it kills and passes thru viltrumites and viltrum ships it doesn't create supernovas.

So it doesn't literally destroy the object it passes through but rather it goes thru the object and the object cannot stop it. Such as stars and such.

"they all pointed to the same conclusion" that being that the infinity ray is unstoppable. The Infinity Ray is stated to be able to blast a path through anything it encounters, noting that anything in it's path is destroyed, specifically stating planets and stars

Yh but the statement you provided also says that this is just a 'theory' and that 'no body knew for sure' and it was made from 'sketchy eyewitness accounts' and 'stories conflicted with each other'. Really seems like taking the star destroying statement at face value when the statement is very wishy washy is interesting. At best it accomplishes the destruction of celestial bodies such as stars thru chain reactions or destabilizing it. It could also be interpreted as the ray going thru the objects and that nothing can stop it 'hence anything in it's path is destroyed'.

I think the author's intent of the Infinity Ray being this strong and Viltrum being more durable than that is enough to throw this out.

Author's intent? I mean the author's clear intent was that all viltrumites are below stellar objects such as stars and such with it being a major plot point that Thragg dies in the sun, even if you think this is an outlier. Why is it then that when Viltrumites get hit by the Infinity Ray it only passes thru them rather than turning them into nothingness.

 

[Phirse]

since the gun can't do anything else to celestial bodies other than shoot a miniscule hole through them

Indeed, although the displacements of such large material under pressure from inside a plant in such a short time causes it to be destabilized making it softer? or easier to destroy, according to Thadeus I suppose.

 

[Phirse]

so I doubt it would randomly explode near the sun's surface due to the heat.

Probably not, unless there were already visible large cracks from the damage incurred due to Tech Jacket. Given how volatile they are to the point they will evaporate outside of their environment it's actually more likely it exploded before reaching the sun.

which is so dense that they need special full body suits to survive in other environments. Re-entry into Earth's atmosphere can already reach up to 7,000 degrees Fahrenheit, so re-entry into a far denser atmosphere would reach far higher temperatures. On the other hand, the surface of the sun is only 10,000 degrees Fahrenheit. Due to the nature of their home planet their ships would likely need to be able to survive temperatures relative to that of the surface of the sun

Ehhh... to re-enter a far denser atmosphere they could also just slow down their spaceship to avoid burning up/ reaching those temperatures. After all their atmosphere is so dense and they probably don't want to reach those temperatures.

 

[Greg_the_master_of_gods]

I'm neutral about the 5-B stuff, but the 5-A looks a bit stupid to me, so I disagree.

 

[FusionPrime0]

Yh but the statement you provided also says that this is just a 'theory' and that 'no body knew for sure' and it was made from 'sketchy eyewitness accounts'

If you read the entire passage, at the bottom Nolan says that "as far fetched as they were, its capabilities were that of tall tales". You're also cherry picking the evidence he listed. He said it was gathered from THOUSANDS of sources, one of which being those sketchy eyewitness accounts, it also lists damaged artifacts as evidence, and says all the thousands of sources point to the same conclusion about its power.

and 'stories conflicted with each other'.

That was later on when we was talking about finding space racer, the stories about how to find him were conflicting, that was in no way related to the evidence about its power.

Really seems like taking the star destroying statement at face value when the statement is very wishy washy is interesting. At best it accomplishes the destruction of celestial bodies such as stars thru chain reactions or destabilizing it. It could also be interpreted as the ray going thru the objects and that nothing can stop it 'hence anything in it's path is destroyed'.

The chain reaction stuff would still be relevant if that's what we go with. Though it also lists planets as things it destroys which have no mechanism for a chain reaction, and white dwarfs, red dwarfs, and neutron stars do not have a mechanism for a chain reaction either.

Author's intent? I mean the author's clear intent was that all viltrumites are below stellar objects such as stars and such with it being a major plot point that Thragg dies in the sun, even if you think this is an outlier. Why is it then that when Viltrumites get hit by the Infinity Ray it only passes thru them rather than turning them into nothingness.

2 things can be true at the same time. The weapon only acts as a beam of energy though at the same time it has the aoe to destroy celestial bodies when it interacts with them. These are both very well supported. If we say the infinity ray is just a beam of energy in all cases we have to throw out it destabilizing Viltrum's core because a beam of energy wouldn't be able to affect the entire core. In that case it makes things easy bc we can just scale them to the ke of it's destruction.

Probably not, unless there were already visible large cracks from the damage incurred due to Tech Jacket. Given how volatile they are to the point they will evaporate outside of their environment it's actually more likely it exploded before reaching the sun.

What does their physiology have anything to do with their ships? I also want to point out that in the several other instances Tech Jacket destroyed Kresh ships, they did not make a jupiter sized explosion or anything close to it.

Ehhh... to re-enter a far denser atmosphere they could also just slow down their spaceship to avoid burning up/ reaching those temperatures. After all their atmosphere is so dense and they probably don't want to reach those temperatures.

Dude they still have to reach escape velocity to escape the atmosphere in the first place, so they would reach those same temperatures exiting their own atmosphere.

 

[Phirse]

You're also cherry picking the evidence he listed.

Not really, you are. I'm just pointing out how in the same source you cited, the capabilities of Space Racer's gun isn't confirmed and is openly disputed. The whole thing about the Infinity Ray destroying stars and celestial bodies is a rumor/legend in the first place as it says 'it was said' and then further says that this was only a 'theory'. And 'no one has ever gotten close enough to the infinity ray for themselves'. He didn't even know 'whether the stories were true'.

the stories about how to find him were conflicting

It wasn't just stories about his whereabouts that were conflicting. It was stories about him general. Which would serve to bolster my point of it being unreliable.

"as far fetched as they were, its capabilities were that of tall tales"

How does this serve to help your point? Tall tales according to Cambridge Dictionary is a story that may or may not be true, but that contains details that are hard to believe. So it's still unknown. I mean it literally has 'tales' in it. No one has any concrete knowledge on it's capabilities apart from the fact nothing can stop it.

If we say the infinity ray is just a beam of energy in all cases we have to throw out it destabilizing Viltrum's core because a beam of energy wouldn't be able to affect the entire core

It could. That amount of mass becoming displaced that quickly in such a short time could possibly destabilize the core. Especially when the core is so highly pressurized

Dude they still have to reach escape velocity to escape the atmosphere in the first place, so they would reach those same temperatures exiting their own atmosphere.

They don't? We don't reach re-entry temperatures when escaping Earth.

The weapon only acts as a beam of energy though at the same time it has the aoe to destroy celestial bodies when it interacts with them

But why? That’s oddly specific to suit your canon and makes no sense. We literally see that it’s unable to destroy a celestial body in the case of Viltrum. So what, is Viltrum suddenly comparable to a black hole because the Infinity Ray can apparently destroy neutron stars, despite having 0 feats of destroying anything remotely as big as an actual feat instead of vague, iffy statements? It supposedly “destroys everything in its path,” yet conveniently doesn't do that to Viltrumites or anything that isn’t a celestial body? Both are not in fact very well supported. Just contradictory.

What does their physiology have anything to do with their ships? I also want to point out that in the several other instances Tech Jacket destroyed Kresh ships, they did not make a jupiter sized explosion or anything close to it.

Your right here. Their physiology has nothing to do with their ships. But the explosion does not have to be Jupiter sized. It could be super small and look bigger in comparison to the sun from our perspective. Also ships don't always detonate or explode when struck.

 

[FusionPrime0]

Not really, you are. I'm just pointing out how in the same source you cited, the capabilities of Space Racer's gun isn't confirmed and is openly disputed. The whole thing about the Infinity Ray destroying stars and celestial bodies is a rumor/legend in the first place as it says 'it was said' and then further says that this was only a 'theory'. And 'no one has ever gotten close enough to the infinity ray for themselves'. He didn't even know 'whether the stories were true'.

It specifically was not disputed at all, Nolan literally says all the thousands of sources point to the exact same thing, those sources ranging from unreliable to destroyed artifacts. Then later in the page he confirms those capabilities to be true.

It wasn't just stories about his whereabouts that were conflicting. It was stories about him general. Which would serve to bolster my point of it being unreliable.

You're just lying, in the page itself he shifted from talking about its power to his location specifically. Also "everything points to the same conclusion" to "stories are conflicting" you're literally making it inconsistent by assuming that the later mentioned stories when Nolan is talking about tracking space racer are somehow also talking about his power, when literally right before this he's saying they all point to the same conclusion.

How does this serve to help your point? Tall tales according to Cambridge Dictionary is a story that may or may not be true, but that contains details that are hard to believe. So it's still unknown. I mean it literally has 'tales' in it. No one has any concrete knowledge on it's capabilities apart from the fact nothing can stop it.

"In time I would find that the space rider and his weapon were very real--and as far fetched as they were, it's capabilities were that of tall tales" I don't know if you're just completely misreading the sentence but Nolan is literally saying Space Racer is real and his real capabilities are that of the tales that he talked about earlier in the page.

It could. That amount of mass becoming displaced that quickly in such a short time could possibly destabilize the core. Especially when the core is so highly pressurized

It's a negligible amount of mass, the core having the insanely high pressure that it does would probably fill it almost instantly.

They don't? We don't reach re-entry temperatures when escaping Earth.

You're right they are lower. But your claim is just an assumption with no backing, there's a reason why we don't do that with our rockets. Considering coalition ships can just chill in the sun's corona, Kresh ships should have comparable technology to deal with high temperatures.

But why? That’s oddly specific to suit your canon and makes no sense. We literally see that it’s unable to destroy a celestial body in the case of Viltrum. So what, is Viltrum suddenly comparable to a black hole because the Infinity Ray can apparently destroy neutron stars, despite having 0 feats of destroying anything remotely as big as an actual feat instead of vague, iffy statements? It supposedly “destroys everything in its path,” yet conveniently doesn't do that to Viltrumites or anything that isn’t a celestial body? Both are not in fact very well supported. Just contradictory.

Everything here hinges on "vague iffy statements". We are given an entire page detailing the capabilities of space racer, and later instances of it acting as an energy beam. Two contradictory things can be true at the same time in fiction, it can just act like an energy beam, but when it interacts with celestial bodies it has aoe and can affect them to a greater extent. It's better than either throwing out all the lore of the weapon and it's destabilization of Viltrum or throwing out every instance we see it not fired at a celestial body.

Your right here. Their physiology has nothing to do with their ships. But the explosion does not have to be Jupiter sized. It could be super small and look bigger in comparison to the sun from our perspective. Also ships don't always detonate or explode when struck.

If you're going by "it exploded due to the sun's heat" then it would be planet sized. Tech Jacket has struck Kresh ships and caused them to blow up before, with their explosions not being planet sized.

 

[Phirse]

It specifically was not disputed at all, Nolan literally says all the thousands of sources point to the exact same thing, those sources ranging from unreliable to destroyed artifacts. Then later in the page he confirms those capabilities to be true

It was bro. He literally says right after listing it's capabilities that it was just a theory and that 'it was said'. He doesn't confirm anything to be true, he calls it's capabilities 'tall tales'. The only thing that the evidence he gathered concretely points to is that the infinity ray is a beam of energy that is unstoppable. He never confirms those capabilities to be true, he literally calls them tall tales by the end.

Kresh ships should have comparable technology to deal with high temperatures.

Unless their ship's hull wasn't already damaged/ compromised.

You're just lying, in the page itself he shifted from talking about its power to his location specifically

Nolan transitions from discussing the weapon to discussing Space Racer generally. When he says the stories are conflicting, he doesn't explicitly limit that statement to only his location. Even if the immediate context is tracking Space Racer, it still demonstrates that the available information surrounding him is inconsistent/ unreliable.

It's a negligible amount of mass, the core having the insanely high pressure that it does would probably fill it almost instantly

Just seems to be the logic or science that the universe seems to be abiding by. Again you seem to be willing to do this too so I don't see why this kind of reasoning should be a problem.

If you're going by "it exploded due to the sun's heat"

Not really, it could have just exploded because it was damaged.

"In time I would find that the space rider and his weapon were very real--and as far fetched as they were, it's capabilities were that of tall tales" I don't know if you're just completely misreading the sentence but Nolan is literally saying Space Racer is real and his real capabilities are that of the tales that he talked about earlier in the page.

“Capabilities were that of tall tales” is a general characterization of how unbelievable and legendary the weapon is, not an explicit verification of each specific rumor mentioned earlier.

wo contradictory things can be true at the same time in fiction, it can just act like an energy beam, but when it interacts with celestial bodies it has aoe and can affect them to a greater extent. It's better than either throwing out all the lore of the weapon and it's destabilization of Viltrum or throwing out every instance we see it not fired at a celestial body.

Sure man. If you so willing to do that, i'm sure you won't mind this at all. Why can't it just be that whenever space racer's beam interacts with objects of significant mass it causes a chain reaction causing it to collapse but... it doesn't apply to Viltrum and only destabilizes it's core. It doesn't mean that Viltrum dura is higher because 2 contradictory things can be true at the same time in fiction. It's better than throwing out Thadeus's statement about the core being destabilized which is why the viltrumites didn't die on contact and ignoring the fact that the infinity ray clearly doesn't display star level DC or AoE whenever on screen, failing to vaporize viltrumites who are far below stellar level. It makes more sense to compromise and that the Ray destroys stars and other planets due to a special interaction with it that is not present in Viltrum. It's a literal sci fi bs gun. Hell when it destroyed the asteroid the asteroid slowly crumbled and caused a chain reaction affecting the rest of the asteriod belt. It wasn't vaporised but I don't think that asteroid now has star level durability.

See what i'm getting at? Using it to bolster Viltrum's dura to neutron star level despite viltrum never being portrayed as anything other than a different planet and not some stellar level mass using selective data is questionable.

Everything here hinges on "vague iffy statements"

Seems like a wider powerscaling problem to me that needs to be addressed.