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No you can't, you're literally the only person arguing in favor of Sonic here.ElixirBlue said:
And I'm saying it can be added under the clause since it's been argued Sonic could possibly get passed the passives.
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*insert joke about how this is a bad idea* (GRACE)
- Thread starter Stalker_Maggot
- Start date
And I'm saying it can be added under the clause since it's been argued Sonic could possibly get passed the passives.
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Sir, you're the only one arguing for this thread's continuation and no one in this thread agrees with you.ElixirBlue said:
You can't force people to stay on a thread where both sides are repeating the same argument.
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I have to repeat myself. The arguments aren't sound and there is little evidence on Dracula's side on this thread, specially when the wiki's contradicts what is written in this thread.
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How is there very little evidence? You were shown direct ******* dialogue, a scan clarifying the castle's power, a gif of Soma using an ability, several pages of non-humans being affected by the castle, and many general quotes to back up what's being said. That is ridiculous to just say "little evidence" was being used.
The wiki? Seriously? We already showed that there were just some assumptions made such as what were the source of specific things. One of yours directly stated there are factors of speculation taken into account at times. And generally if something doesn't have a citation to it on a wiki, it's based off an intepretation meaning it's not necessarily wrong but it's not remotely objective.
Not only that, we've been over why Dracula's wincons work when Sonic really didn't have anything to get passed even Lullaby. This goes to Dracula and grace has passed.
The wiki? Seriously? We already showed that there were just some assumptions made such as what were the source of specific things. One of yours directly stated there are factors of speculation taken into account at times. And generally if something doesn't have a citation to it on a wiki, it's based off an intepretation meaning it's not necessarily wrong but it's not remotely objective.
Not only that, we've been over why Dracula's wincons work when Sonic really didn't have anything to get passed even Lullaby. This goes to Dracula and grace has passed.
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At the end of the day, this back and forth isn't worth it. But then, what vs debate actually is?
I think you literally missed the glaring contradiction where it says, "Their creations bear the namesake of "Innocent Devils", creatures summoned and born of darkness, ranging from original and self-made, to even the formerly deceased and revived. All created beings hold strict and utter loyalty to their respective Forgemaster and grow in power through battle and destruction." Hmmmm... "Devil"? "Born of Darkness"? Almost like they are under his control...
If I must even give evidence for this, let's directly take text from Dawn of Sorrow the Castlevania game itself.
"Soma Cruz: ...Yes. I fell for your ruse. Why would you want to resurrect the dark lord?
Celia Fortner: We do not desire the dark lord, per se. For god to be perfectly good, there must be a being of perfect darkness.
Soma Cruz: That has nothing to do with me. If this world does need a perfect dark being, one should emerge. Isn't that how it works?
Celia Fortner: Perhaps that is so. And perhaps it is not. What is true, however, is that the power of darkness steadily grows faint. The lord of darkness must be enthroned without fail. And not a moment too soon." - https://castlevania.fandom.com/wiki/Celia_Fortner/Dialogue
Innocent Devils are made from darkness but that's not the only place they originated from.
"Devil Forgemasters are not mere sorcerers; they are not just trained in black magic, but also in the arts of alchemy and spiritual metaphysics, being able to craft massive weapons and arsenals from mere prime and raw materials of nearly any sort, as well as creating magical living beings with the forbidden knowledge they possess."
Unless there is a clearer statement otherwise, Dracula does not have the inherent access to abilities created by a Devil Forgemaster. Otherwise, why would Dracula need them?
I think you literally missed the glaring contradiction where it says, "Their creations bear the namesake of "Innocent Devils", creatures summoned and born of darkness, ranging from original and self-made, to even the formerly deceased and revived. All created beings hold strict and utter loyalty to their respective Forgemaster and grow in power through battle and destruction." Hmmmm... "Devil"? "Born of Darkness"? Almost like they are under his control...
If I must even give evidence for this, let's directly take text from Dawn of Sorrow the Castlevania game itself.
"Soma Cruz: ...Yes. I fell for your ruse. Why would you want to resurrect the dark lord?
Celia Fortner: We do not desire the dark lord, per se. For god to be perfectly good, there must be a being of perfect darkness.
Soma Cruz: That has nothing to do with me. If this world does need a perfect dark being, one should emerge. Isn't that how it works?
Celia Fortner: Perhaps that is so. And perhaps it is not. What is true, however, is that the power of darkness steadily grows faint. The lord of darkness must be enthroned without fail. And not a moment too soon." - https://castlevania.fandom.com/wiki/Celia_Fortner/Dialogue
Innocent Devils are made from darkness but that's not the only place they originated from.
"Devil Forgemasters are not mere sorcerers; they are not just trained in black magic, but also in the arts of alchemy and spiritual metaphysics, being able to craft massive weapons and arsenals from mere prime and raw materials of nearly any sort, as well as creating magical living beings with the forbidden knowledge they possess."
Unless there is a clearer statement otherwise, Dracula does not have the inherent access to abilities created by a Devil Forgemaster. Otherwise, why would Dracula need them?
^ I agree with this but the reason why there is a stomp is what i'm debating.Inverted Tempest said:
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@Inverted Tempest The evidence for Dracula shown:
- A Youtube video with a vague, non canon ending scene of Soma becoming Dracula, assuming this no dialogue scene was enough evidence that all Dracula's have all the demon powers inherently because Soma became Dracula after absorbing a lot of demon powers.
- TheSpeedster96 showing the Dracula's Castle is a symbol of Dracula's Dark power but that statement doesn't automatically mean that it doesn't have magical abilities.
- Several wiki links, and in the wiki links stating monster's were transformed by magic. And the wiki also states the Dracula's Castle is also a symbol of Dracula's magic.
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I don't see how that remotely negates the fact they're still stated to be specifically made of pure darkness. You'd need to explicitly prove that they're something else instead of just saying those who incorporated them were trained in different abilities. They literally just do the dirty work in making those Innocent Devils is all that has been proven. Nobody even said that he created them himself, they're still his subordinates like what's already been mentioned. Their abilities were already proven to have belonged to him.
We are literally passed grace, you are under obligation to stop arguing this now.
We are literally passed grace, you are under obligation to stop arguing this now.
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What do mean I need to show more evidence? The Innocent Devils are made out of pure darkness + something else that made them.
YOU need to show Dracula has this something else in him.
YOU need to show Dracula has this something else in him.
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Show they are made of something else, they are noted to be born of darkness which is literally enough to give him control over them, why else would they be in the castle? I don't need to show zilch considering I cave the dialogue from earlier showing he controls darkness like that as well.
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Wait, there's a Hell?
"bring people and animals back from the dead or to call demonic spirits from Hell into intact corpses,"
Is that part of the Concept of Chaos?
"bring people and animals back from the dead or to call demonic spirits from Hell into intact corpses,"
Is that part of the Concept of Chaos?
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Of what relevance is that? Also, ask Speedster, I wouldn't know that.
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Well, all my energy is burned out.
Dracula's powers came from this: Chaotic Realm.
The Devil Forgemasters get their Demonic spirits from this: The Abyss which is the game's closest representation of hell.
The wiki's don't state a connection.
Dracula's powers came from this: Chaotic Realm.
The Devil Forgemasters get their Demonic spirits from this: The Abyss which is the game's closest representation of hell.
The wiki's don't state a connection.
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And your point...? The Abyss is inside the castle.
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The Abyss:
ENVIRONMENT(S) - Alternate realm
ENVIRONMENT(S) - Alternate realm
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Yes, the castle has many different realms in it, your point?
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That the Abyss isn't a part of Dracula's powers, even though he uses it's citizens and monsters from there as part of his army.
Also, the realms aren't actually inside Dracula's Castle.
Also, the realms aren't actually inside Dracula's Castle.
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How is it not part of his powers if the castle is tied to his will?
"It is said that the giant clock tower is a symbol of Dracula's castle. Within it are crushing giant moving contraptions and gears that are several times the height of a human.Curtis and Michelle continued on climbing up and up.Relying on the few scattered scaffoldings, they attacked the medusa heads and monsters that crowded their surroundings.Although they have been through various places of the castle, they still have not caught sight of the children. While defeating numerous monsters, up until now Michelle had not doubled her speed.From the first monster that she saw and defeated, it is certain that she had developed far more experience in actual battle.It was said that there are areas in the castle where teleporters instantly allow you to return to the entrance even from the farthest side of the castle. It was then discovered that the castle exists on top of another dimension."
"It is said that the giant clock tower is a symbol of Dracula's castle. Within it are crushing giant moving contraptions and gears that are several times the height of a human.Curtis and Michelle continued on climbing up and up.Relying on the few scattered scaffoldings, they attacked the medusa heads and monsters that crowded their surroundings.Although they have been through various places of the castle, they still have not caught sight of the children. While defeating numerous monsters, up until now Michelle had not doubled her speed.From the first monster that she saw and defeated, it is certain that she had developed far more experience in actual battle.It was said that there are areas in the castle where teleporters instantly allow you to return to the entrance even from the farthest side of the castle. It was then discovered that the castle exists on top of another dimension."
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Because the Castle creates portals to other realms, not actually houses them inside.
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Read the quote.
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Read the quote.
I did. But I also read this quote about Alternate Realities which is what The Abyss is.
"Alternate Realms are worlds that belong to another dimension apart from ours. Entrances to these places are usually generated by ripping the very fabric of time and space, opening a portal between worlds. These doors are generally only temporary and can only be opened when a certain uncommon event or a large period of time has elapsed in our world, such as the passing of a century or a solar eclipse."
"Opening a portal between worlds". Between which world? Between the world the Castle sits in and another dimension?
And also note they don't have connections between each other other than the Castle. And that they can only be access through certain events.
I did. But I also read this quote about Alternate Realities which is what The Abyss is.
"Alternate Realms are worlds that belong to another dimension apart from ours. Entrances to these places are usually generated by ripping the very fabric of time and space, opening a portal between worlds. These doors are generally only temporary and can only be opened when a certain uncommon event or a large period of time has elapsed in our world, such as the passing of a century or a solar eclipse."
"Opening a portal between worlds". Between which world? Between the world the Castle sits in and another dimension?
And also note they don't have connections between each other other than the Castle. And that they can only be access through certain events.
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Then the wiki is clearly misinterpreting the original material. The castle clearly contains them, this is literally just similar in the fact Bulbapedia does a similar thing where outright universes are just pocket dimensions to them.
"SOMA: Yeah.... I've taken the bait. Why do you want a demon king?
CELIA: It's not that I want a demon king. In order for god to be completely good, a being of complete evil is lacking.
SOMA: That has nothing to do with me. If the world wants complete evil, the demon king will someday appear. Isn't that right?
CELIA: That may be true. Or it may not be true. But in fact, the power of the demon world is getting weaker. A demon king must definitely be made. And soon."
And the Demon World is the Abyss, meaning they're talking about the castle in this context.
"SOMA: Yeah.... I've taken the bait. Why do you want a demon king?
CELIA: It's not that I want a demon king. In order for god to be completely good, a being of complete evil is lacking.
SOMA: That has nothing to do with me. If the world wants complete evil, the demon king will someday appear. Isn't that right?
CELIA: That may be true. Or it may not be true. But in fact, the power of the demon world is getting weaker. A demon king must definitely be made. And soon."
And the Demon World is the Abyss, meaning they're talking about the castle in this context.
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Where in the dialogue does it link the Abyss to the Castle?
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Again, refer to your own source you've been trying to use the entire time.
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"By opening a portal to the Demon Realm she plans to turn her castle into a Demon Castle such as Dracula's Castle."
So, the Demon Realm isn't that same as Dracula's castle.
The Demon Realm and Abyss aren't the same thing.
"Both the Demon Realm and the Abyss are called unique names in this game, so, while they are not the same place, it is possible they are connected somehow since the portal to the Abyss fuels the castle's existence."
Ok, now we are getting somewhere.
"The Chaotic Realm is a region of distorted space where the power of Dracula's Castle is stored by accumulating negative energy; this energy is used and processed for the resurrection of both Count Dracula and the re-emergence of the castle itself."
So, the Abyss > The Abyss's portal = the castle's existence > negative energy = The Chaotic Realm =/> Dracula's power/resurrection.
So, the Demon Realm isn't that same as Dracula's castle.
The Demon Realm and Abyss aren't the same thing.
"Both the Demon Realm and the Abyss are called unique names in this game, so, while they are not the same place, it is possible they are connected somehow since the portal to the Abyss fuels the castle's existence."
Ok, now we are getting somewhere.
"The Chaotic Realm is a region of distorted space where the power of Dracula's Castle is stored by accumulating negative energy; this energy is used and processed for the resurrection of both Count Dracula and the re-emergence of the castle itself."
So, the Abyss > The Abyss's portal = the castle's existence > negative energy = The Chaotic Realm =/> Dracula's power/resurrection.
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I have asked for Speedster to return to the thread, he should be here soon to reply to this since he's more knowledgeable on the cosmology than I am.
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Well This Was an Odd Idea
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Alright. I don't mind Sonic losing but some of the arguments sounds like I needed to know about the Cosmology in advance.
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I believe this can be added
also Drac FRA
also Drac FRA
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If it is going to be added, perhaps a review on why it should be added happen first?
Lullaby can't be used as a reason as Innocent Devils, where Lullaby comes from, are stated to be made by demons used from hell. The Abyss is the closest thing resembling hell.
The Abyss > The Abyss's portal = the castle's existence > negative energy = The Chaotic Realm =/> Dracula's power/resurrection.
Lullaby can't be used as a reason as Innocent Devils, where Lullaby comes from, are stated to be made by demons used from hell. The Abyss is the closest thing resembling hell.
The Abyss > The Abyss's portal = the castle's existence > negative energy = The Chaotic Realm =/> Dracula's power/resurrection.
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Also, Dracula's Castle does use Magic.
"...However, its potent power has not been entirely lost.
23. Dracula's Castle - The symbol of Dracula's dark power, its appearance coincides with Dracula's resurrection. The priest of the Hakuba Shrine sealed it in a solar eclipse in 1999. Then, during the solar eclipse of 2035, it sought a new master, but failed. Now, its dark power awaits the rise of a new dark lord..."
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/ds/922145-castlevania-dawn-of-sorrow/faqs/39306
Used as a Wiki's source link, but there also dialogue from the game.
Genya Arikado: The evil in this spirit comes from those who seek chaos and destruction. So we need to cut off the source of the chaos influencing the spirit.
Soma Cruz: Is that possible?
Genya Arikado: This castle is a product of Dracula's magic. It's a spiritual world. My point is this... a stream of chaos exists within this castle as well. There is a place where only you, Dracula, can go. That's where the chaos is!
https://castlevania.fandom.com/wiki/Castlevania:_Aria_of_Sorrow/Script
"...However, its potent power has not been entirely lost.
23. Dracula's Castle - The symbol of Dracula's dark power, its appearance coincides with Dracula's resurrection. The priest of the Hakuba Shrine sealed it in a solar eclipse in 1999. Then, during the solar eclipse of 2035, it sought a new master, but failed. Now, its dark power awaits the rise of a new dark lord..."
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/ds/922145-castlevania-dawn-of-sorrow/faqs/39306
Used as a Wiki's source link, but there also dialogue from the game.
Genya Arikado: The evil in this spirit comes from those who seek chaos and destruction. So we need to cut off the source of the chaos influencing the spirit.
Soma Cruz: Is that possible?
Genya Arikado: This castle is a product of Dracula's magic. It's a spiritual world. My point is this... a stream of chaos exists within this castle as well. There is a place where only you, Dracula, can go. That's where the chaos is!
https://castlevania.fandom.com/wiki/Castlevania:_Aria_of_Sorrow/Script
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So, Dracula's Castle abilities are magic based.
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