Immersion: Glorified Dimensional Travel

[Catzlaflame]

I don’t think immersion should be an ability on the wiki; I will state my points individually.

It shouldn’t have even existed in the first place

Here’s the thread that got immersion accepted as an ability. See the issue? ZERO evaluation staff approvals. Ik we were lax with this stuff back then, but having no other evaluating staff inputting is just another level of lax.

Compare this to nowadays when abilities (that are typically more unique anyway) are subject to way more scrutiny.

Issue

For those who don’t know, immersion is the ability to travel into a fictional world i.e., to travel into novels, paintings, yada yada.

The current justification read as so:

Immersion is an ability which allows one to cross the boundary between fiction and reality and enter the imaginary locations depicted in books, paintings, movies etc.

The Issue with this is that terms like “cross the boundary between fiction and reality” read as if immersion would allow a character to go from a “real” world into a fictional world while still retaining the transcendental nature that comes with that. We know from the recent standard revisions that doing so would, in fact, contradict/debunk the character actually having a genuine r>f transcendence.

Well then what does that leave? The instances where r>f is present, but just not a real r>f transcendence. Like the toon force-y stuff where characters enter fictional works, but demonstrate that the fictional works aren’t any “less real” compared to reality

Looking at it from THAT perspective, we realize that… it’s… literally.. just traveling to a different space/realm…. aka Dimensional Travel.

Back when this page was made, we weren’t as strict with our r>f standards, so the page probably was intended to be dimensional travel thats like exclusive to genuine r>f…. NOW that genuine r>f and dimensional travel absolutely can’t intersect like that… the page is kinda moot.

Like a fictional place that isn’t actually fictional is just… any another place, are we gonna give pages to abilities that are essentially just dimensional but vary based only on what dimension/realm you’re traveling to????

I say nay. We might as well make an entire ability dedicated to specifically traveling into a character’s mental space under this logic.

Proposal/Workload

im not just proposing something without a plan for implementation. There’s 2 options:

1. I can change all of the links
2. I can just add a redirect

(1) is more work, but looks better (if this is the better option I’ll be handling the workload myself so don’t worry about manpower) (2) is easier but may not look as nice

Honestly all the same to me, and functions relatively the same way in practice as well.

Anyway, Let me know what y’all think

 

[Catzlaflame]

@SamanPatou @DarkDragonMedeus @DontTalkDT @Antvasima @Mr. Bambu @Maverick_Zero_X @Deagonx @Qawsedf234

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I agree, and if it can be handled easily by a bot then I have little issue with implementing changes. I'd prefer Option 1.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I mean, I've read some novels where a character goes down into a fictional reality. Because they're more real than their surroundings a single one of their actions, like breathing too hard can destroy the entire fictional dimension they're in. In the end, they had to create a special method to limit themselves while down in the fictional world, because a single piece of their hair had more energy than anything else in that fictional dimension.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

That still seems to me as though it is a flavor of Dimensional Travel, though. Like it is Immersion under the current system but that would still also fall within the broad net of Dimensional Travel, as well.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I suppose so. But what about dreams? Wouldn't changing this be the same as saying, that if a character has the ability to go into a dream, then the dreams aren't actually dreams, but alternate dimensions, just as real as everything else?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

My first thought is "well that's just Dream Manipulation, even if the Dream Realm is a separate place- we do that for Freddy Krueger, after all". But if we were to consider it a form of Immersion (and thus changed by this)...

There's two immediate routes one can go with that.

Dreams aren't real (therefore falling under Immersion) -> The effects in the dreams aren't real (That one Supernatural episode)

Dreams aren't real (therefore falling under Immersion) -> The effects in dreams are real (Freddy Krueger)

Either one falls under Immersion (and would therefore fall under Dimensional Travel, were this to be accepted). It is a nuance of their particular version of the ability, whether we call it Immersion or Dimensional Travel.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Looks goods to me

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

My first thought is "well that's just Dream Manipulation, even if the Dream Realm is a separate place- we do that for Freddy Krueger, after all". But if we were to consider it a form of Immersion (and thus changed by this)...

There's two immediate routes one can go with that.

Dreams aren't real (therefore falling under Immersion) -> The effects in the dreams aren't real (That one Supernatural episode)

Dreams aren't real (therefore falling under Immersion) -> The effects in dreams are real (Freddy Krueger)

Either one falls under Immersion (and would therefore fall under Dimensional Travel, were this to be accepted). It is a nuance of their particular version of the ability, whether we call it Immersion or Dimensional Travel.

Yeah, that makes sense.

 

[Agnaa]

I would prefer just calling this sort of thing Dimensional Travel.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Option 1 looks good to me. With the recent revisions, Immersion seems redundant to have as an ability

Would it help to add something akin to what Immersion was (albeit with the specification that it's not a proper R>F transcendence) as a possible use of Dimensional Travel on its page?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It's sort of like a mix between dimensional travel and shapeshifting, but I can agree its sort of redundant.

 

[SamanPatou]

It makes sense on the surface, but on the other hand my gripe is that Dimensional Travel might implicity require the existence of the place you're traveling in, while Immersion often involves entering a place that shouldn't normally exist as a real place, like a paiting, a movie, a picture etc..., making it a sort of reality wearping-like power that could even affect time or else.

Still, we can expand the Dimensional Travel page to include this sort of ability too, putting in it some limits though.

 

[Antvasima]

It makes sense on the surface, but on the other hand my gripe is that Dimensional Travel might implicity require the existence of the place you're traveling in, while Immersion often involves entering a place that shouldn't normally exist as a real place, like a paiting, a movie, a picture etc..., making it a sort of reality wearping-like power that could even affect time or else.

I personally agree with this, and do not think that it seems like a good idea to delete such a distinctive and different ability.

I do not think that we should delete this ability just because the power itself doesn't make logical sense. My apologies.

 

[FinePoint]

I disagree. A power being a bit illogical is fine. This is fiction, after all.
This is an extremely common trope, and universally equating it to time travel or dimensional travel simply isn't accurate.

Notably, this correlation makes some serious assumptions which are often not true in many depictions:

• That there exists a physical place they are travelling to.
  • That this physical place either always existed or was just now created.
• That this verse/character follows traditional logic and science.
  • That a place has to exist just like a real universe in order to be travelled to.

The mention of r>f and other very specific power scaling terms sort of reveals the contextual bias of this proposal towards thinking of reality and fiction in a very specific way, rather than being open to how an individual verse actually treats that difference.
Not every verse adheres to the logic that the difference between reality and fiction is equal to the difference between a higher and lower dimension, nor that they're separate but equal universes. Not every verse adheres to the idea that they can even be numerically or logically compared in the first place.

At the end of the day, this is a magic-esque ability which defies traditional logic in a way that most cases of dimensional travel or time travel doesn't.
Many characters who demonstrate this ability demonstrate none of the other traits associated with dimensional travel or time travel, so to lump them together just feels simply inaccurate, and greatly misleading as to this character's actual abilities.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I would not agree that this is a case of "contextual bias". It is a case of equivalence, an instance where two things are mechanically very similar and being caught upon the minutiae is not necessary. The minutiae is to be determined for each case regardless, we are here to determine the wide, blanket terms to be used. Immersion being applicable only to fictional (or at least fictionally portrayed) areas would simply be a detail, were it to be re-dubbed Dimensional Travel, much like the particular ability to travel to some plane of thought rather than physicality is, still, Dimensional Travel, rather than its own separate ability. Of course it is different, and as much ought to be specified, but it is not different enough to necessitate a separate ability.

Hence, I still reckon this is fine, if it can be handled easily with bots.

 

[FinePoint]

Travel, much like the particular ability to travel to some plane of thought rather than physicality is, still, Dimensional Travel, rather than its own separate ability. Of course it is different, and as much ought to be specified, but it is not different enough to necessitate a separate ability.

Whether it's "different enough" is ultimately subjective, but I believe that the wording of "Dimensional Travel" creates actual confusion as to what someone with the ability is capable of, since it has very strong connotations which often don't match up- notably travelling to places which actually exist. Many of these fictional worlds not only are purely conceptual, but cease to act like a place and bare no consequences as soon as they're left.

If you want my full ramblings, see below.

Spoiler: FinePoint Being Long-Winded

Were the ability name something more general, I would not have so much an issue with it, since we have many abilities which are technically subsets of others, but the name itself "Dimensional Travel" I feel implies a very physical nature of travelling to a place which actually exists in some way, lesser or otherwise, while immersion involves travelling to a place which only hypothetically or conceptually exists in a magical way that defies any inherent implications of actually travelling to another dimension.

In contrast, many examples of this ability involve entering a world which doesn't and never existed, with the actual structure of this world starting and ending with the painting it's depicted on, and only imitating a real place now in some illogical or magical fashion. Furthermore, many depictions have the painting instantly revert back to a mundane state the second this person leaves, or have whatever changes made now be depicted only in a static and mundane way, now part of the painting- which reaffirms and implies that this 'world' only ever existed in a conceptual sense, and was not, in fact, an 'other, far-off location.' In the anime I watched recently, they were able to be hurt and fully interact with everything in the painting, even getting full from food in there, but as soon as they left all the effects were erased as if they never happened, stating that it's because the food wasn't real. From the perspective of this just being another 'dimension', that doesn't really make sense.

Was this world created by the person using this ability? Did the person who painted the painting create this world, but it was just frozen until interacted with? If this is a dimension which can be travelled to, does that mean anyone with unrestricted dimensional travel can reach it? Does this mean that every idea a character in that verse comes up with creates a distinct physical location that anyone with unrestricted dimensional travel could access? If this is a real place they actually travelled to, then why are the consequences of that seemingly erased even for themselves?
By calling it a dimension, we're now forced to question a bunch of things which may not even be relevant or applicable in the first place.

You compared it to entering a dream before, but I disagree with that too (in general). Sure, it's fine if the verse has a "dream world" established which is a place, but what if it doesn't? Aren't you actually just entering someone's thoughts then? Why then would the visual depiction be anything other than a bunch of neurons? You mention travelling into someone's 'plane of thoughts', but once again it only works because you've baked the idea of it being a 'place' directly into your wording, when that's not always the case.

Without additional context, I think entering and manipulating someone's dream from the inside would be Dream Manipulation.
Without additional context, I think entering and manipulation someone's thoughts from the inside would be Mind Manipulation.
And without additional context, I think entering and manipulating a piece of fiction from the inside would be Immersion.

You want to say: "This is dimensional travel, but only to a 'place' which doesn't actually exist and is purely conceptual, and also only acts like a world while the person is actively there, and time only passes while being perceived, and it has to resemble some kind of fiction, and sometimes only if it creates a cool visual gag, and usually everything that happens within it becomes irrelevant as soon as they leave, and I know we just called it 'dimensional' travel, but I want to be clear that this 'dimension' probably doesn't classify as a 'dimension' in any way you probably think when you hear that word, it just seems to act like one for a bit." Which, sure, might be technically accurate with all those caveats, but it's confusing for no reason when there's a far simpler and more direct way to describe their powers through 'Immersion' as a distinct ability.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Again, this is just a property of their specific application of it. You're free to vote how you like, of course, but I don't think this is any more confusing than the current system. I think the presumption is that people are not confused with Immersion as it is now, when I've seen people try to apply both Immersion and Dimensional Travel already. Genuinely, my stance is that it would be less confusing to just merge them, given their immense similarities.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with FinePoint here.

Improving on the clarifying nature of the explanation text for the Immersion ability is perfectly acceptable though.