Immeasurable Speed Sonic, time to PERISH

[Causalist]

We don't know that yet. We haven't reached a stalemate of any kind and us pro-immeasurables have several legitimate reasons to be confused and unsatisfied. You can see them if you look back at earlier posts on page 10. If you end this thread now and aply the downgrade, a 100 upgrade threads will spawn from it in the future.
Ending the thread now is a short term solution that's gonna cause way too many problems later down the line

 

[AKM sama]

I don't think what couldn't happen in 1000 comments will happen if this thread is left open. Surely, one side will end up unsatisfied when this thread is finished, that's to be expected because it's a matter of upgrade/downgrade.

 

[Causalist]

Did you not read our reasons to be unsatisfied? Anti-immeasurable arguments are so contradictary that they end up accidentally supporting pro-immeasurable. Thier argument revolves around standards that are hard to meet and yet HAVE been met by Super Super Sonic by process of elimination. Anti-immeasurables know that matching Solaris is an insanely impressive feat. They even go as far as to say that even an immeasurable speed character or an infinite speed one should not be able to pull it off. We debunked this by proving that immeasurable speed is the perfect counter to temporal omnipresence, and yet they still use that as an argument. They say that a feat is TOO impressive to be immeasurable so it has to be MFTL. Cal however, who is anti-immeasurable does think that immeasurable speed can match Solaris' physiology!
We're about to reset this thread with more clarity than ever before! We have a plan for once!
To kick that plan into motion, all you guys have to do is start being consistant with each other. I'm sorry, but is this that much to ask?

 

[AKM sama]

If people want to reset this thread, then this one should be closed and a new thread should be made with points from both sides in the OP. This one is too long and too much of a mess that instantly repels anyone who would even want to evaluate it.

Also, don't spam the thread with multiple posts. You can just edit more in your earlier comment if nobody has responded to it.

 

[Causalist]

If people want to reset this thread, then this one should be closed and a new thread should be made with points from both sides in the OP. This one is too long and too much of a mess that instantly repels anyone who would even want to evaluate it.

It's a soft reset, and it was my idea, but Shake and many others agree with it. I don't know if we should take it to a different thread. I'll leave that up to you guys.

Also, don't spam the thread with multiple posts. You can just edit more in your earlier comment if nobody has responded to it.

Sorry lol. I was just really worried you were gonna close the thread without letting me say what I have to say

 

[MysticMania]

A new thread, as Pepto suggested, is the best option here, I feel. Ending this now will result in nothing, to be blunt.

 

[Greenshifter]

If people want to reset this thread, then this one should be closed and a new thread should be made with points from both sides in the OP.

Can a staff member make it where they summarize all arguments of the staff who commented on the thread? For this however the staff will have to internally debate since their points contradict. In the meantime we summarize our arguments and send it to said staff member.

 

[AKM sama]

Well, I think @DarkDragonMedeus should be able to when he gets enough time.

 

[Theuser789]

A soft reboot would be a good thing, however the staff summary needs to be what the actual staff said, not some interpretation of it, like "x staff said this but he actualy meant y" and all

Also Pep using Cal is not really that good because the dude said that his disagreement was going to contradict others.

 

[Causalist]

Also Pep using Cal is not really that good because the dude said that his disagreement was going to contradict others.

Oh crap, why didn't you tell me earlier, dude? That would have saved me some time and embarassment lol. So yeah I just dug through some old posts and found this:

There's also a ten to one chance that I'm not going agree with the other people of the anti-immeasurable side as I don't know their reasons and I make my own (that are influenced by my other sources). But I am against immeasurable. Tbh it'll probably the last thing I'm vocally against on here...

I guess over time, I forgot what that Cal had made it clear that his stance may be independant from other anti-immeasurables, but I figured that by the time he said his first argument, he had read through most of this thread and gained somewhat of an idea what the arguments were on both sides are. At least, that was my reasoning before I forgot he said that. I still think he should give his input so that anti-immeasurables can have a better summary when the time comes for it to be used in the reset. We should stick to the plan imo, but I'm sincerely sorry for calling the other side hypocritical over this point in particular. Cal has nothing to do with the hypocrisy. This is my biggest oof of this entire conversation and I can't believe I forgot that Cal said that.

 

[Causalist]

I added a third requirement to the reset and created an alternative to the first one. Let me know what you think about it.

1: Cal and Duedate should work out their differences, as their reasonings behind immeasurable speed being bunk contradict each other to the point that it supports our side.
If Cal doesn't want to get involved (which is understandable), Anti-Immeasurable's other inconsistancies still need to be adressed. How can they convince thier opposition to agree with them if they don't agree with themselves or each other for reasons that add up? The way I see if, if we don't clear step 1 first, then step 2 and 3 are gonna be just as chaotic as the first 11 pages, making the reset pointless.
2: Compile all of your evidence against immeasurable in one place. Obviously, it's too much to ask of people to read this whole thread from start to finish, so instead, both sides should fully explain thier POV in one board of their own.
3: Once the evidence for both sides is compiled in one place, pro-immeasurables and anti-immeasurables should state thier concession conditions.
So what do I mean by concession conditions? Basically, it involves both sides writing down a list of points that the opposite side needs to prove in order to get them to concede. It’s like a pact that forces the discussion to reach a natural conclusion instead of one that is forced out of exhasperation or laziness. The reason why I believe this may be a great idea is because it allows each side to have a clear, realistic objective to aim for while preventing their opposition from using cheap stalling tactics like moving the goal post. The only issue with this idea that I can think of is that people may write down concession conditions which are completely unrealistic just so they can have the last word. Both sides NEED to be reasonable

Sound good?

 

[JJSliderman]

Seems reasonable.

 

[MysticMania]

Yes, I agree. I think it might be good if each side can message each other ( I don't know how this site works, so I just assume like, there's some way for each side to group DM each other, or something ), discuss and compile all of their own points with each other, and then post one summary for each side, rather than multiple as we did this time.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I don't think there is a group DM feature here...
You all pro immeasurable side have to meet on discord or sumthin' and discuss it...

 

[MysticMania]

I'm okay with that as well, but only if the others are comfortable.

 

[Causalist]

Yes, I agree. I think it might be good if each side can message each other ( I don't know how this site works, so I just assume like, there's some way for each side to group DM each other, or something )

I already started compiling evidence from you, TheUser, and myself for the board. I'll run it through you guys before posting it, though. We're in this together. I also contacted Greenshifter's message board because many of his arguments are legit and unique, and yet they completely flew under the radar for some reason. A group DM for each side would be perfect.

I don't think there is a group DM feature here...
You all pro immeasurable side have to meet on discord or sumthin' and discuss it...

Idk how Discord works though. Since I already started writing the board, and at this point, I'm probably the most actively involved in defending immeasurable, how would you feel about contacting me on my message wall? I think it's best if the communication on both sides is made public anyway, for the sake of transparency. We don't have anything to hide, and step #3 of the reset process requires some level of trust between both sides.

 

[AKM sama]

I don't think there is a group DM feature here...

There is. People can start a private conversation with multiple people.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Thank you..
I am still new on this site and unaware of any extra features or perks of this place.

 

[MysticMania]

Ditto.

 

[Causalist]

There is. People can start a private conversation with multiple people.

I'm looking for the feature and I can't find it... Like I said, I believe the conversations on both sides should be available publicly since it would allow more tanspercancy, but if the anti-immeasurables already started chatting privately, (which would explain why they haven't shown up in a while), then I guess there's not much we can do about it and I obviously can't judge them for using the feature in the way it's intented. I'll do whatever the majority is most comfortable with, but I think I speak for everyone when I say we don't have anything to hide.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Generally lost interest in this thread, but if you want to start a private conversation with someone, you just need to click on their profiles and click "Start Conversation"

If that option isn't there, then you probably need to have a set amount of comments. I think it was 200~ comments or smth, but I could be wrong.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm looking for the feature and I can't find it... Like I said, I believe the conversations on both sides should be available publicly since it would allow more tanspercancy, but if the anti-immeasurables already started chatting privately, (which would explain why they haven't shown up in a while), then I guess there's not much we can do about it and I obviously can't judge them for using the feature in the way it's intented. I'll do whatever the majority is most comfortable with, but I think I speak for everyone when I say we don't have anything to hide.

It should be the letter icon button right between your username and the bell icon button. You can also search usernames to invite to conversations and what not.

 

[AKM sama]

If that option isn't there, then you probably need to have a set amount of comments. I think it was 200~ comments or smth, but I could be wrong.

This. I think the limit is 200 posts.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Bummer I have only 127 comments....

 

[Causalist]

Thank you.

@The_real_cal_howard @Duedate8898 Are you guys still around?

 

[Causalist]

Bump

 

[Causalist]

Welp. Since they still won't show up I guess I'll throw this out there.

Anti-immeasurable inconsistencies

1: They say that temporally omnipresent attacks can’t be dodged even by immeasurable characters, yet they also say that finite speed characters can dodge them (using other verses as examples), apparantly making the feat meaningless for Sonic.

2: They state that immeasurable speed doesn’t allow you to move your past self out of the way of attacks. However, they also say that it allows you to dodge attacks after already being hit, and the speed page states that characters with immeasurable speed can go anywhere and anywhen faster than instantly.

3: (This one may not be a contradiction depending on how you look at it, but it’s worth going over) Duedate says that temporal omnipresence isn’t speed, but a state of being that makes speed irrelevant. Meanwhile, DarkDragon says that time omnis can have finite speed, and that regular people can avoid their influence. Is it irrelevant or finite? Meanwhile, the speed page says that omnipresent attacks can’t be dodged with regular speed. The key word here is “regular“, as it implies that speed values that go at least beyond finite can allow characters to dodge omnipresent attacks. The speed page then goes on to say that a certain mix of abilities can allow characters to match omnipresents, but if Sonic doesn’t have any of these abilities, then the only option that leaves us with is a speed rank beyond any finite value. I’m getting ahead of myself here, but at least the first two points need to be addressed. The third one can be saved for the reset if you prefer.

@ShakeResounding Sorry if I'm bothering you with this. I'll just ask you one last time if you saw any other inconsistancy. After all, you did notice that their arguments weren't adding up before I did. If there's anything else I missed, you could help resolve this.

Immeasurable can't be removed until the ones who are openly in favor of the downgrade can agree with each other for reasons that add up.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

1. First of all, point number 1 comes from a misconception. It is said that an attack that is Omnipresent across time and space cannot be dodged period even if the character as Immeasurable speed. But an attack with temporal omnipresence yet lacks spatial omnipresence can be dodged even if the character has finite speed. I don't think there is any ability at the top of my mind that defines dodging those, but it's not speed.

2. Immeasurable speed could, but it's not something they're often expected to do; not always expected they physically traveled to each and every time period; an infinite number of time periods no less. To grab each and every past and future self. Though, that's doesn't seem like a relevant part with part 1's stuff.

3. Well, reread point 1, it's specifically talking about attacks that strike all time and space simultaneously, not attacks that attack all time periods but are limited spatially. Though, I do notice an outdated paragraph yes; regular speed vs Immeasurable speed isn't relevant anymore when it comes to omnipresence. And it also should specify the specific attack being omnipresent, not simply "An attack from an omnipresent".

 

[Causalist]

1. First of all, point number 1 comes from a misconception. It is said that an attack that is Omnipresent across time and space cannot be dodged period even if the character as Immeasurable speed. But an attack with temporal omnipresence yet lacks spatial omnipresence can be dodged even if the character has finite speed. I don't think there is any ability at the top of my mind that defines dodging those, but it's not speed.

Idk about you, but DueDate does say that even immeasurable speed shouldn't be enough to dodge Solaris's attacks. I'm not putting words in his mouth since he says it more than once. They're still contradictary arguments (at least to you), so you should talk it through with him rather than me.

2. Immeasurable speed could, but it's not something they're often expected to do; not always expected they physically traveled to each and every time period; an infinite number of time periods no less. To grab each and every past and future self. Though, that's doesn't seem like a relevant part with part 1's stuff.

So they're not expected to do that, but they still can? DueDate disagrees with that in his very last post he's made in response to me. He said that Immeasurable speed allows you to dodge attacks after already being hit, but he disagrees with the notion that it allows you to move your past self, which somehow is an argument that contradicts itself.

3. Well, reread point 1, it's specifically talking about attacks that strike all time and space simultaneously, not attacks that attack all time periods but are limited spatially.

They can be dodged by moving somewhere else in space, but we know that's not what they're doing, because they would have eventually run out of free space, especially since the attacks Solaris hasn't fired yet should already exist in the future, which would translate into it existing in the past and present as well

Though, I do notice an outdated paragraph yes; regular speed vs Immeasurable speed isn't relevant anymore when it comes to omnipresence. And it also should specify the specific attack being omnipresent, not simply "An attack from an omnipresent".

Solaris's attacks should be omnipresent just like the rest of his being. You can call it a guess, but it sure as hell is an educated one.

Anyway, I think it's best we continue discussing this, along with the rest of the third point, after the reset. It's gonna have its time eventually once we get a clean start, just like every other point. We just need to follow each step one at a time

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

And it was agreed Solaris is only omnipresent across time, not space.

 

[MysticMania]

I don't mean to sound rude, DDM, but if you don't mind me asking,
"1. First of all, point number 1 comes from a misconception. It is said that an attack that is Omnipresent across time and space cannot be dodged period even if the character as Immeasurable speed. But an attack with temporal omnipresence yet lacks spatial omnipresence can be dodged even if the character has finite speed. I don't think there is any ability at the top of my mind that defines dodging those, but it's not speed."
How? If I have finite speed, and the attacks are hitting me from every sliver of time all at once, I'm pretty sure it'd hit me before I could really even think to dodge it. I could just be mistaken of course, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Theuser789]

1. First of all, point number 1 comes from a misconception. It is said that an attack that is Omnipresent across time and space cannot be dodged period even if the character as Immeasurable speed. But an attack with temporal omnipresence yet lacks spatial omnipresence can be dodged even if the character has finite speed. I don't think there is any ability at the top of my mind that defines dodging those, but it's not speed.

Like the rest said, Dude definitvely argued several times against us that immesurable speed would not be able to dodge an onmipresent through time attack, it was his main argument against us that "immesurable wouldn't work", since you disagree with him then Pep is right that it is a inconsitency between your two posts and you should settle it out

 

[ShakeResounding]

@ShakeResounding Sorry if I'm bothering you with this. I'll just ask you one last time if you saw any other inconsistancy. After all, you did notice that their arguments weren't adding up before I did. If there's anything else I missed, you could help resolve this.

Sorry man, I wish I got to you sooner.

To answer, no. I think you got everything.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't recall DueDate saying that; all he said was stuff about true Omnipresents from what I recall. Or maybe he was going off of Greenshifter's drawings; which assumed temporal omnipresent causes spatial omnipresence by default. But also said he'd argue the meteors lack the omnipresence if anything. That was going off of things Antoniofer said on the other thread.

@MysticMania it's fine. You're not being rude. Though to answer your question, I actually don't know full details but it's commonly believe the attack isn't fully omnipresent until it hits the target. All I know is that, there cases where punches, swords strikes, and projectiles that shake and/or nuke entire timelines and/or multiverses are consistently dodgable by the opponents who do the same thing. And yet, a lot of those characters lack Immeasurable attack speed or reaction speed. Or even pocket realities that are less than universe sized but contain timelines while not quite universal in terms of AP still require temporal AoE to nuke, but finite speed characters dodge them all the time. And even characters who are already Omnipresent on a temporal scale still throw meteors and strikes that reach multiple time periods still get evaded. Needs to hit present self first in order to strike all the past and future selves is a common limit.

 

[Greenshifter]

I don't recall DueDate saying that; all he said was stuff about true Omnipresents from what I recall. Or maybe he was going off of Greenshifter's drawings; which assumed temporal omnipresent causes spatial omnipresence by default

Or even pocket realities that are less than universe sized but contain timelines while not quite universal in terms of AP still require temporal AoE to nuke

Technically this is a VSBW imposed thing for anti-inflationary reasons. Actually destroying a space-time of a star-sized pocket dimension would be low 2-C, after all size of the 3D part of the universe is completely irrelevant since it the universe were infinite-sized then it’s still only baseline low 2-C when destroying it’s space-time. Zamasu Chan also nicely points this out in his universe standards revision.

The hedgehogs can't move their past or futures selves in order to dodge these attacks.
If the attacks are omnipresent throughout all of time, then if any point in their own time ever overlaps with Solaris' attacks they would get hit. Even with immeasurable speed, you still have a past and a future

My drawing also never assumed temporal omnipresence causes spatial omnipresence. It might just look that way because it’s in 2D (with one time-dimension). My drawing did assume that the attacks would look as a straight (undodgeable) line to the hedgehogs which AKM and Duedate agree with (conditional to Solaris’ attacks being temporal omnipresent). As a matter of fact what you’re saying with the attack only spreading out through time upon hitting the opponent is I think something Antoniofer also referenced in his explanation. But this is just temporal AoE, what the hedgehogs have, and has no relation to Solaris attacking with temporal omnipresent attacks.

 

[Greenshifter]

And it was agreed Solaris is only omnipresent across time, not space.

If he were space-time omnipresent I’d probably be opposed to immeasurable speed btw because those attacks might just straight up be undodgeable even for immeasurable speed characters.

 

[Theuser789]

DueDate 100% argued that time onmipresent attacks can't be dodged with immesurable speed because their past selfs would still exist and get hurt, Greenshifter even quoted him

 

[Axxtentacle]

Yeah, he did that multiple times.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

What I miss?

 

[Causalist]

I haven't seen you since, like, page 5 lol. Unless I'm wrong, you missed ALOT. DarkDragon and Duedate should be currently debating with each other, as their reasonings contradict each other. Once that's done, we'll continue this in a new thread in what I call a soft reset.