Immeasurable Speed Sonic, time to PERISH

[Theuser789]

It means they are omnipresent across time, that's all

 

[MysticMania]

Right. Also, I'm sorry for asking, Overlord, but why are you claiming that Solaris' Temporal Omnipresence is bugged out? I don't see any issues with it, and it's much more unlikely that someone's physicality would just so happen to not work, over it actually working.

 

[Greenshifter]

I want to ask both sides a question: does being omnipresent across time automatically equal your attacks are this fast?

They are finite speed in space. It’s just that the causality of Solaris’ attacks is this fast. Sonic basically needs to dodge the causality rather than the attack itself.

You could see it as Reverse Flash going back in time to shoot a bolt of lightning at your crib, in every single point in time where your crib is or isn’t at that position. So while a single bolt of lightning can be dodged with finite speed, the entire stream of lightning in all of time can’t be dodged. Unless you are so fast you punch Reverse Flash in the gut before he shoots his lightning bolts.

Same principle here only Solaris is even harder to kill and my argument is basically that the hedgehogs have no past and future within the freshly created rift where they fight Solaris and the entire fight lasts 0 seconds so they won’t create a past and future either since the rift collapses when the fight is done. This is to prevent the addition of acausality type 2 AND immeasurable speed and to just say they only need immeasurable speed in this specific instance.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

They are finite speed in space. It’s just that the causality of Solaris’ attacks is this fast. Sonic basically needs to dodge the causality rather than the attack itself.

You could see it as Reverse Flash going back in time to shoot a bolt of lightning at your crib, in every single point in time where your crib is or isn’t at that position. So while a single bolt of lightning can be dodged with finite speed, the entire stream of lightning in all of time can’t be dodged. Unless you are so fast you punch Reverse Flash in the gut before he shoots his lightning bolts.

Same principle here only Solaris is even harder to kill and my argument is basically that the hedgehogs have no past and future within the freshly created rift where they fight Solaris and the entire fight lasts 0 seconds so they won’t create a past and future either since the rift collapses when the fight is done. This is to prevent the addition of acausality type 2 AND immeasurable speed and to just say they only need immeasurable speed in this specific instance.

Yeah that's fair

 

[Greenshifter]

The hedgehogs can't move their past or futures selves in order to dodge these attacks

This isn’t necessarily relevant with what I just brought up but you do know that getting hit in the past and the damage transferring to the present takes time right, at least from the perspective of immeasurable speed beings? Thus I am very happy to see that no-one in-game says they dodged attacks that hit them in the past since them feeling the effect of getting hit in the past would contradict immeasurable speed.

So we have nothing but them dodging the attacks with no damage to support immeasurable

There’s also the argument of Solaris’ consciousness which everyone ignored for 10 pages. Also them dodging attacks from a time-Omni by itself should already be more impressive than what an infinite speed being can do by DDM’s admission. Solaris, who’s composed of a genius who successfully killed Sonic, attacking in only 3 points in time was the argument against this but I’m pretty sure this has been dropped since.

damage someone simultaneously throughout all of time

Not simultaneously from your own immeasurable speed perspective (or even Solaris’s perspective probably). But still possible to target someone in every point in time individually, just very tedious to do.

the amount of time it takes for them to change their position in space isn't.

From their own perspective it wouldn’t be but if they turn around then there would be multiple of the same being in every point in time (unless you argue that the previous version just gets erased which gives a lot of headaches but doesn’t really negate my point). Thus every time Solaris updates their position their present self will immediately be in that position so it would actually look instantaneous. Same with their attacks, which I think you agreed upon with the meteor to straight line thing you agreed on.

If anything our biggest difference in opinion comes from the hedgehogs supposedly having a past and future in the rift which they don’t due to technicality of it being a newly created rift. And if you do say they have a past and future there then they’d need acausality type 2 and immeasurable speed.

 

[MysticMania]

Wouldn't Type 2 agree to the idea of them having no past and future at all? Also, as the Hedgehog's aren't in the same points of time as each other, for example, Solaris' attacks would still be moving throughout all of time simultaneously, right? If so, I still feel dodging these attacks ( as well as Sonic outspeeding Solaris' reaction speed ) would qualify as immeasurable speed, regardless.

 

[Theuser789]

Wouldn't Type 2 agree to the idea of them having no past and future at all?

Yes

 

[JJSliderman]

Anti-Immeasurable side is I guess arguing that because Solari's attacks are finite and only cover a small spatial area, that Sonic could dodge them by moving into a different spatial area.

Which ig is fair, but then how would Sonic know what spatial area it's going to be in to know to dodge it in regards to the lasers when their trajectory is decided split-seconds before firing and they can ambush Sonic from anywhere in time?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Anti-Immeasurable side is I guess arguing that because Solari's attacks are finite and only cover a small spatial area, that Sonic could dodge them by moving into a different spatial area.

Moving out of the way wouldn't protect past Sonic from getting hit by the attack. The attack are spread across all of time at once, so even if present Sonic dodges the attack and avoid it, past Sonic would not and get hit

 

[MysticMania]

Moving out of the way wouldn't protect past Sonic from getting hit by the attack. The attack are spread across all of time at once, so even if present Sonic dodges the attack and avoid it, past Sonic would not and get hit

Yeah, we've agreed on that, I think. It's just, because of immeasurable, he could then just dodge the same attack ( somehow ) and unhit himself. Essentially, he was never hit in the first place, since it was in the past.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yeah, we've agreed on that, I think. It's just, because of immeasurable, he could then just dodge the same attack ( somehow ) and unhit himself. Essentially, he was never hit in the first place, since it was in the past.

I know. I was just explaining it to this guy. This is literally impossible without immeasurable (except for Acausality Type 2, but the events of both Sonic 06 and Sonic Generations contradict this)

 

[MysticMania]

Oh dang, okay. My bad then, I understood wrong.

 

[Greenshifter]

Moving out of the way wouldn't protect past Sonic from getting hit by the attack. The attack are spread across all of time at once, so even if present Sonic dodges the attack and avoid it, past Sonic would not and get hit

I mean the thing is if Sonic has immeasurable speed then no time passes so he doesn't have a past self due to the rift being seperate. This reasoning only works for when Sonic doesn't have immeasurable speed.

Infinite speed gives the same benefits as acausality type 2 in this scenario, DDM admitted infinite speed is not enought to dodge Solaris' attacks.

Which ig is fair, but then how would Sonic know what spatial area it's going to be in to know to dodge it in regards to the lasers when their trajectory is decided split-seconds before firing and they can ambush Sonic from anywhere in time?

That's not even the problem it's just that Solaris initially at say 10 p.m. exactly would be standing in front of Sonic and didn't fire an attack yet. Then Solaris launches an temporal omnipresent attack and 5 seconds later from Solaris' own perspective at 10 p.m. exactly his beam would be where Sonic is standing. This one moment in time keeps updating itself with every movement Solaris makes essentially.

Wouldn't Type 2 agree to the idea of them having no past and future at all? Also, as the Hedgehog's aren't in the same points of time as each other, for example, Solaris' attacks would still be moving throughout all of time simultaneously, right? If so, I still feel dodging these attacks ( as well as Sonic outspeeding Solaris' reaction speed ) would qualify as immeasurable speed, regardless.

I'm saying that due to the specific nature of the rift (as in it's a newly formed region of space) they wouldn't need acausality type 2 since they have never been in that region and will never be once the fight is over. Thus if they are fast enough they have no past and future in the rift from a non-immeasurable beings' perspective.

 

[MysticMania]

I'm really sorry to say, but, I don't quite understand what you mean towards the end, there.

 

[Greenshifter]

Let’s say that purely hypothetically the rift was a pocket dimension with it’s own space and time. If the hedgehogs then had infinite speed and a portal to the rift then they could go into the rift, do stuff and get back out all within a single moment of time. Now I ask you, were there any future or past versions of the characters inside the rift? Or only the present version for an infinitesimal amount of time (or even less)?

 

[MysticMania]

Let’s say that purely hypothetically the rift was a pocket dimension with it’s own space and time. If the hedgehogs then had infinite speed and a portal to the rift then they could go into the rift, do stuff and get back out all within a single moment of time. Now I ask you, where there any future or past versions of the characters inside the rift? Or only the present version for an infinitesimal amount of time (or even less)?

We only see one of each Hedgehog.

 

[Greenshifter]

We only see one of each Hedgehog.

That's not really what I was asking. I was putting up a hypothetical scenario to make you understand my point. Read my scenario again but assume I am only talking about a singular hedgehog or heck a human with infinite speed. Like let's say there's a time traveling sniper with infinite speed (and without cosmic awareness) with an immeasurable speed bullet waiting in every point in time except the present time inside the rift, does the infinite speed hedgehog die or not?

 

[MysticMania]

Oh dang, my apologies. I guess I took your message too literally.

Being blunt, I honestly just don't know. Would infinite speed be enough to repeatedly dodge that?
I assume no, but, I didn't fail high school for nothing after all.

 

[Greenshifter]

Why would the infinite speed being need to dodge when he can just stay in the one moment of time where the sniper isn't in, do what he needs to do and then leave the rift?

 

[MysticMania]

I'm sorry. I guess I'm still not entirely catching on with you.
We know they can still get hit by these attacks, and, I don't know why the attacks would conveniently avoid the parts of time the Hedgehogs are in at that moment. Every aspect of Solaris is Temporally omnipresent, and I don't feel the area they're fighting in would conveniently avoid that aspect of him. ( We even see him fighting the Hedgehogs at the same time, while they're not in the same time, if you know what I mean. )

 

[Greenshifter]

Let me clear it up for you, the sniper only pulls the trigger upon sight and the sniper ISN'T in the present, "only" the entire past and future. The sniper has nothing to do with Solaris btw.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

"Baseless accusations of not reading summarized arguments"

This kind of attitude is why people are hesitant to respond. It may be hard to believe, but people are significantly less willing to have a discussion when responded to in vitriolic ways such as how you handled yourself just now.

If you actually read the end of what I said, I added that we also need to all stop endlessly interjecting so that a decision can be made, unless we are directly asked a question.

And since we have once again moved onto another page, this will only further discourage people from wanting to read anything. The previously summarized statements need to be reposted and after both sides do that, and all the staff members involved respond, hopefully a conclusion can be found.

The ways things are going now, this just isn't going to end.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

So the time stopper was not at all resistant to timestop himself, which still gets my original point across that I was saying to Pepto when drawing my comparison.

Not at all. That would just be an example of power negation. Just like how chaos control can time-stop characters who've shown resistances to other methods of time stop.

If Solaris has a really crappy, gutted version of Temporal Omnipresence with few benefits, then I guess it would suck to be them, but it would still make more sense than slapping immeasurable speed onto characters who lack the requirements and are stuck in an awkward middle ground as a result.

How can he even have a crappy version of temporal omnipresence? This isn't an abillity with varying levels of effectiveness, this is just what Solaris IS. He can't be bad at having a physiology, and members on both sides of the argument have admitted that temporal omnipresence is something that can be countered with certain abillities that don't just involve TAoE. Cal said that immeasurable speed would do the trick, while other anti-immeasurables such as Duedate say that even immeasurable speed is not enough, and that the hedgehogs would need to have thier own omnipresence or type 2 acausality. Both sides agree that omnipresence and type 2 acausality are unreasonable due to their contradictions. Every member of pro-immeasurable agrees that immeasurable speed is the best and only way left to match Solaris the way they do, (and Cal, who is an anti-immeasurable agrees with that idea and only seems to disagree with immeasurable for an unrelated reason that has been debunked).

As it stands, they don't meet the current standards for immeasurable, and most of the people who are pro-immeasurable have just been repeating statements that have already been responded to. At this point it feels like anything staff answers you all with just won't be good enough, unless they all say, "I concede," in unison.

You can accuse anti-immeasurables of the exact same thing. I would argue they do it to a worse extent, but this isn't my call to make and it's a waste of time to argue about anyway. We just want to be heard, and I have a way to make sure it happens which I'll talk about below.

The Pro Immeasurable side literally summerized that. Did you even read the summary that you say all of this? As you yourself already seem to get an opinion on this subject while outright claiming that "I won't read all of these arguments"

People such as Pepto and User literally summerized the arguments. If you still don't want to read them, then this is not their problem.

THANK YOU! While this is really exhausting, and I just wish people would have the patience and open-mindedness to give the arguments the time and attention they deserve before taking sides, I think I may still have a solution. I'll make a new post for it below this one so it doesn't go under the radar.

 

[Theuser789]

Honestly the reason it hasn't ended is that the opposition agrees that this is a feat, but it does not know what gives it, giving it the impression they are only arguing against immesurable instead of arguing for an accurate decision that could lead to immesurable being downgraded, all I see is arguments tha are "yeah immesurable doesn't work" but they agree this is a feat but don't know what, the fact this is still going on just proves what I said that without an actual reasoning people are going to talk about this forever, and the fact that you are trying to gaslight them into being stubborn people that don't accept anything when they are people that are simply confused is the reason why you get mean comments, don't do that, this attitude of "me vs them" is just bad

 

[Greenshifter]

@Peptocoptr27 This might be of assistance for you. Keep in mind that this is a drawing that goes over the scenario in which Sonic doesn't have immeasurable speed.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

It lead us nowhere for 7 pages, so that alone isn't enough. This topic is too complex and we're already in too deep. You're only making it worse by bringing attention to it. Now a whole page is gonna be filled by our non-sense back and forth if this keeps going

Why do you think suddenly making a Bible would make things better? It's been going on for 8 pages because both sides don't want to back down, suddenly shooting a Bible isn't going to make a side back down it's just going to kill a thread/make people have to give you skimmed replies.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

WHAT WE NEED TO DO TO PUSH THIS FORWARD:
I suggest we give this thread a soft reset. I know this SOUNDS like it's gonna make it last even longer, but really, it should allow us to start this debate with a more of a solid foundation that would minimize the chaos and confusion. Don't get the wrong idea though. The first 11 pages of this were far from pointless. Now, we have a better understanding of what we're talking about, and there shouldn't be anymore derailing. So how do we do this soft reset, you may ask? Well, since immeasurable is currently accepted, and the pro-immeasurables have explained in excruciating details thier argument multiple times, I believe the anti-immeasurables should do the first move with this:

1: Cal and Duedate should work out their differences, as their reasionings behind immeasurable speed being bunk contradict each other to the point that it supports our side
2: Compile all of your evidence against immeasurable in one place. Obviously, it's too much to ask of people to read this whole thread from start to finish, so instead, both sides should fully explain thier POV in one board of their own.

The first one refers to this inconsistancy: Immeasurable Speed Sonic, time to PERISH | Page 10 | VS Battles Wiki Forum
And before anyone says that the second one is impossible because you can't prove a negative, I'd like to point out that pro-immeasurables have compiled all of thier evidence so many times that it should be easy for the opposition to do the same if they really believe in thier point of view. The burden of proof is still on thier side. Once they compile all thier evidence in one place, I can respond to it in one of 3 ways, but I'm getting ahead of myself. The point is, by then, we can have a clear plan. After a soft reset, we have options.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Why do you think suddenly making a Bible would make things better? It's been going on for 8 pages because both sides don't want to back down, suddenly shooting a Bible isn't going to make a side back down it's just going to kill a thread/make people have to give you skimmed replies.

Just say that you don't want to read the arguments and get over with it. People such as Pepto and User literally summed up your arguments for people like you who can't be bothered to read the entire thing, so you can still read our arguments. If even that's too much for you, then this is not our problem. In fact, I literally made the same message before so I'll just post it here:

The Pro Immeasurable side literally summerized that. Did you even read the summary that you say all of this? As you yourself already seem to get an opinion on this subject while outright claiming that "I won't read all of these arguments"

People such as Pepto and User literally summerized the arguments. If you still don't want to read them, then this is not their problem.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Just say that you don't want to read the arguments and get over with it. People such as Pepto and User literally summed up your arguments for people like you who can't be bothered to read the entire thing, so you can still read our arguments. If even that's too much for you, then this is not our problem. In fact, I literally made the same message before so I'll just post it here:

I don't think you understand that my problem is with him saying bibles are necessary, not with him summing up his argument, so you either clearly haven't read my post or have a preconceived notion that I disagree with whatever tf is being argued in this thread.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

You're part of the problem you're trying to stop. By complaining about our way of doing things, you're drowning out the important posts with your complaints, and if you keep this up, all of your posts will eventually pile up into a big paragraph. Ironically, the only difference is that this one wouldn't take the conversation ANYWHERE closer to a conclusion. And if there's any place on the entire web where you should expect a 1000 word essay about immeasurable fictional flying rats, it's VS Battle Wiki. Besides, I just suggested we give this thread a fresh start anyway, so let's just wait for the anti-immeasurables to initiate it (unless they reject my idea, but I don't know why they would tbh).

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

You're part of the problem you're trying to stop. By complaining about our way of doing things, you're drowning out the important posts with your complaints, and if you keep this up, all of your posts will eventually pile up into a big paragraph. Ironically, the only difference is that this one wouldn't take the conversation ANYWHERE closer to a conclusion. And if there's any place on the entire web where you should expect a 1000 word essay about immeasurable fictional flying rats, it's VS Battle Wiki. Besides, I just suggested we give this thread a fresh start anyway, so let's just wait for the anti-immeasurables to initiate it (unless they reject my idea, but I don't know why they would tbh).

I didn't say anything about "Trying to stop" I'm pointing out your core reasoning for allowing bibles is objectively wrong. You took the need to reply to my comment rather then accepting your reasoning was wrong. No, vs battles wiki isn't where you should expect it, no site is really, no one is coming on to expect bible responses to threads, the fact that you are trying to defend that bibles are a good thing is just plain wrong.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I didn't say anything about "Trying to stop" I'm pointing out your core reasoning for allowing bibles is objectively wrong. You took the need to reply to my comment rather then accepting your reasoning was wrong. No, vs battles wiki isn't where you should expect it, no site is really, no one is coming on to expect bible responses to threads, the fact that you are trying to defend that bibles are a good thing is just plain wrong.

Regardless of that, what are you doing now is derailing the thread, so let's get back to topic

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I'm just gonna bring this back into the main focus. Once this is done, we can try to do this with short responses for a second time and see if it works. I want whataver can provide the best communication. My only defense for large paragraphs was that I thought it would stop the opposition from forgetting our old arguments and misinterpreting our points, as they would all be right in front of them in a comprehensive explanation. And it did allow me to debunk any alternative to immeasurable speed and call out what doesn't add up, so I thought they were at least well structured enough to allow the opposition to understand what I meant. I wanted to try something new, and if it hurt more than it helped, I'm sorry

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

"Honestly the reason it hasn't ended is that the opposition agrees that this is a feat, but it does not know what gives it, ... but they agree this is a feat but don't know what,"

Is there any chance that the events of the Solaris fight might just be an unquantifiable feat? I'm not trying to push that as the answer, mind you, but I'm asking that question out of curiosity.

 

[ShakeResounding]

I agree with Pepto. We should give this thread a soft reboot with both arguments compiled simply. That's a good idea tbh.

 

[Theuser789]

Is there any chance that the events of the Solaris fight might just be an unquantifiable feat? I'm not trying to push that as the answer, mind you, but I'm asking that question out of curiosity.

There is a chance for literally EVERYTHING bro, yeah, there might be a chance it is, but is it accurate or we are just saying that to not give immesurable? That's the question, this is why I just want more reasoning than anything else

 

[MysticMania]

I do agree with giving this thread a soft reboot kinda like 06 hahah oh shit, and like Pepto also said:
"1: Cal and Duedate should work out their differences, as their reasonings behind immeasurable speed being bunk contradict each other to the point that it supports our side
2: Compile all of your evidence against immeasurable in one place. Obviously, it's too much to ask of people to read this whole thread from start to finish, so instead, both sides should fully explain their POV in one board of their own."

 

[sanicspood]

why are people stilll arguing this shit

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I agree with Pepto. We should give this thread a soft reboot with both arguments compiled simply. That's a good idea tbh.

Alright! But before we start, we still need to wait for @The_real_cal_howard and @Duedate8898 to resolve this

1: Cal and Duedate should work out their differences, as their reasionings behind immeasurable speed being bunk contradict each other to the point that it supports our side

If you don't mind getting involved, I'd also like you to read this, Shake. I know you said that you noticed some contradictary arguments on the anti-immeasurable side, but I don't know if we were both refering to the same thing. This is important because the anti-immeasurables can't reasonably go through with the downgrade until they agree with each other on why said downgrade should happen to begin with. At the very least, if they're going to have different arguments, those arguments should be able to co-exist.

 

[AKM sama]

1000 comments

Well, as far as I can tell, there are many people agreeing on both sides, although, almost all staff members have disagreed with the reasoning for immeasurable for one reason or another. At this point, this debate will keep on going without ever reaching a conclusion. So I think it's better to just conclude the thread and apply this revision.