Ikki's Speed

[MaBoiAcnologia]

Ok I must be getting annoying now with speed revisions, but I want to ask something about Ikki.

He is capped at Massively Hypersonic + right now, and that is true with Itto Rasetsu being faster than lightning, however Oikage allows him to go even faster, and in the story (which is even in the description of Oikage) his shadow couldnt keep up with his movements.

It is commonly known shadow is as fast as light, since the absence of light is what creates shadows. (And even in comic books this is an acknowledged fact) Would this mean, since Ikki's shadow could not keep up with his Oikage technique, that he is FTL?

 

[MaBoiAcnologia]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know, sorry, but we generally use proven speed levels rather than speculation.

 

[MaBoiAcnologia]

I see, if I came with scientific facts to prove the speed of shadows, would that be more convincing? Or a calc of which the calc team can review, I have done calcs before for Thors strength (Yggdrassil before I found out each realm holds a universe in them

 

[NotEvenHuman]

We brought this up back in 2016 and the answer we got was that "outspeeding your own shadow" is unquantifiable because it makes no sense at all and is not something that can actually happen, iirc. I might be remembering wrong though, since it's been over a year already, so if you want to try and calc it or back it up with facts, feel free to do so.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that a calculation evaluated by the calc group would be best.

 

[MaBoiAcnologia]

@NotEvenHuman ever since that post, I found more interesting articles that could be brought up, also they oversimplified what a shadow is, which made them lose track of the simples fact of what a shadow consists of and how it is produced, simply the abscence of light. @Antvasima I will try and formulate a calc, however should I wait for the revamp of the NarutoForums calcs? That seems to be something massive going on now, and dont want to disturb it with new calcs.

 

[Gemmysaur]

Didn't we have this a long time ago?

 

[Antvasima]

Smaller statistics revisions are fine. It is just major structural revisions of the wiki that have to wait.

 

[Antvasima]

@Gemmysaur

I do not remember.

 

[Trulybehind]

Yeah, but something still bug me, if ikki can move ftl should be his dura much higher. Because if ikki does move ftl how his body can handle friction? Because move at ftl is much more faster than massively hper+. And as long as i remember ittou shura and rasetsu doesn't amp his dura. And that feat only based on stella narration. I think it bad idea to update someone to ftl based only 1 statement

 

[-BANLK-]

Upgrading a guy to FTL speed based on a single vague feat is a bad idea......

 

[Kaltias]

@Truly

The moment you move FTL, stuff like KE and friction doesn't apply anymore.

 

[TheSandman31]

Yeah, but something still bug me, if ikki can move ftl should be his dura much higher. Because if ikki does move ftl how his body can handle friction? Because move at ftl is much more faster than massively hper+. And as long as i remember ittou shura and rasetsu doesn't amp his dura. And that feat only based on stella narration. I think it bad idea to update someone to ftl based only 1 statement

We don't use that here.If we were to use it then it would also mean we have to upgrade characters who are LS or FTL to higher tier because moving something with mass to LS needs an infinite amount of energy.

 

[Trulybehind]

Ah oke, but it still bother me to upgrade someone to FTL based on one statement by stella(ikki outspeed his shadow) without any support feat. Or there is another statement in ln that imply ikki move that fast. And based on wiki that move is used alongside ittou rasetsu that only amp 100x from base ikki

 

[TheSandman31]

Anyway blitzing your shadow isnt unquantifiable.Especially if that shadow is already cast on an object.

He is FTL if he arrives faster than a shadow.If he arrives on a shadow before it is cast on something

shadows which are already cast on an object can actually travel faster than light.

Before you said that nothing in reality can travel FTL.That is true, information cant travel faster than the speed of light but a shadow isnt transferring information.

 

[TheSandman31]

A shadow is an image and an image can certainly move from one place to another faster than light. Imagine you are watching a movie projected against a screen that is one light minute away (that's one eighth of the distance between the sun and the earth) — let's say you are sat outside on a mountaintop at night with a projector just behind your right shoulder. Of course it would have to be a very big screen floating in space (and a very bright projector!). Now imagine the screen completely encircles you around the horizon with the image on just one 30 degree section ahead of you. You decide that, because there's a bit of a chilly wind coming in at your right side, you will move your comfy leather armchair around 90 degrees to the left so that it shelters you from the wind. You then swivel the projector, now over your left shoulder, 90 degrees to the left too... It may take you 1 second to swivel that projector around by 90 degrees. You won't actually see the image move on this distant screen until two minutes have passed (the time it takes the light to travel there and back), but when it does it will take just 1 second to do so, passing through a distance along the screen that is millions of miles in length, i.e. the image will move at many times the speed of light. The information that was transmitted (the image) still only travelled from projector to screen at the speed of light though. Nothing amazing or spooky has happened in this example (apart from the impressive screen and projector of course!). You could send an image off in two directions to hit screens far apart at the same time. You wouldn't say that one screen had sent the image to the other in an instant, but when an image appears a small distance away from where it was a short time previously, we interpret that as movement of the image. Like others have said, the image isn't something physical and there is no superluminal communication going on here. The projector is the sender of the message, not the screen. There is no limit to the speed that an image or shadow can move at.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-speed-of-a-shadow

 

[TheSandman31]

TL;DR

There is no limit to the speed of shadow since it isn't something physical.

Blitzing a shadow isn't quantifiable.

BUT BLITZING THE LIGHT WHERE THE SHADOW IS TRAVELING THROUGH IS and it will be FTL

 

[Sandman31]

TheSandman31 here you can run fast enough that your shadow will lag behind you but it won't detache from your feet.I don't know the context of this so I can't judge but if he is merely causing his shadow to lag behind him then it should be calcable I think

since we're ignoring Special relativity maybe it is possible.I'm not the guy who can't answer so maybe you should wait for the response of people knowledgeable about this subject

 

[NotEvenHuman]

Here's the scene where the feat happens, if it helps:

Being convinced of it, Stella stepped boldly forward and swung her blade of light towards Ikki. It was time to end this. But in that instant Stella's focus reached its limit. The view of the surrounding began to disappear from her mind and what reflected in her eyes was only a white world and certainly a figure of Ikki striking her with his sword swing. In that world of white with only Ikki's figure in it….

……………………………..?

Stella remembered something was off. Something,―

There was absolutely something strange. It was as if she had woken up in the morning to find the sky was pink. It was a horrible discomfort that can be said to be ridiculous. But what? What was strange? Where was the source of this discomfort? When she focused her mind further tens of times in that moment stretching towards infinity, Stella finally realized it. The source of her discomfort. It was Ikki who swung down his sword ― the shadow under his feet.

The shadow did not move.

Ikki had swung his sword and yet his shadow remained still. No. It did move but it was as if it was trying to pursue his movements badly. Stella had guessed what that meant. His shadow could not keep up with his movements. Was that even possible? It couldn't be. It shouldn't' be possible for that to happen.

 

[Trulybehind]

So if ikki move at speed of light, why stella can see ikki and his shadow, or perhaps stella has vision to see light speed attack. And after read that, it only the movement of ikki sword that oustspeeding his shadow right?

 

[Blahblah9755]

So basically he completed the slash before his shadow could? In other words he moved so fast that he slashed before the light that reached the location after he had left it could hit the ground.

I think to calc that you would need to find the distance of his slash, take about 90% of that since Stella said the shadow moved a little, divide the answer by the distance to his shadow (I'd assume at least square root of 2 times his height, since the shadow should be comparable to his height for Stella to make out its movements clearly). That would give us a ratio of how far he moved compared to how far the light moved, so we would just multiply that by the speed of light.

@Truly this is probably relativistic actually, but seeing faster than light and hearing faster than sound are two very common tropes in fiction.

Edit: sorry I just realized you meant that as in since Stella's slower than him. Slower characters tracking characters who should be too fast to perceive for the sake of narration is also pretty common in fiction though. Although this does seem a bit different considering it mentions how much focus she has to put in just o think back on it, and how much she has to slow the moment down in her memory.

 

[MaBoiAcnologia]

Before I go into specifics, its not unblievable Itto Rasetsu did make him FTL.

Lets go into specifics of the anime, Ikki at base could react to supersonic + speeds with his eyes closed without the use of Insight, Perfect Vision or Played Steal.

At Itto Shura, that would make him hypersonic, which would make sense since Itto Rasetsu would make him massively hypersonic +, which it did, him being able to outpace the speed of lightning.

HOWEVER THERE IS CONTEXT. Ikki's Itto moves requires the release of ALL his magical power. People forget that he has spent a week+ fighting everyday without sleep or food. His stamina was extremely low, and until he had support from friends he was hallucinating. The dude had NOTHING going for him in that fight, and his magical power was severely drained. As we know from Phantom Swords, one can drain ones physical energy by striking and draining their magical energy. Both are interlinked, so with this I can safely say his magical reserves were heavily depleted (even without this fact it would make sense, he had no food or rest for a week+ and was fighting every day, exhausting his already little magical power). Which means he outpaced lightning with a very weak Itto Rasetsu. Keep this in mind as I go forward.

Then came Edelweiss, Edel was FTE to Ikki when he was in Itto Shura. But after copying her style, he was able to keep up with her when he was still in a near dead state of body and mind. The dude was beaten to a pulp, and was still achieving massively hypersonic speeds (kept up with Edelweiss without Itto Shura) meaning imagine the speeds hed hit at base when healthy.

This would mean Itto Shura, after copying Edelweiss style (which allowed him stupid more amounts of body control) hed be at least massively hypersonic + (this is from the numbers hed mentioned that he is boosted by) so its not ludicrous to say the 100x boost from Itto Rasetsu would make him FTL (if lightning is 1/3 speed of lightning).

NOT ONLY THIS shaky powerscaling as it could be called, Ikki became a Desperado mid fight against Stella, which gave him stupid more amounts of magic to put into Itto Rasetsu and subsequently Oikage.

What I mean from this is that, on top of that one feat, people are saying one feat (calling it shaky) is not enough to boost him to FTL. However, we have powerscaling backing up the fact hed be FTL when he uses Oikage and Post Desperado Itto Rasetsu.

 

[NotEvenHuman]

Let's not use the incredibly inaccurate and obviously non-canon anime, alright?

Also, that's not how Illusionary Form, or Phantom Swords, as you called them, work. They don't drain the target's magical energy, just their stamina. Stamina and mana are not tied to each other either, and there is no mention of Ittou Shura running out during his fight with Edelweiss. There's a lot of other incorrect information on your post, but i'm on mobile and it's almost 2AM here and i really should be sleeping, so i'm not going to address all of it.

Look, i'm all for FTL Oikage, but if you're going to upgrade a character, do it properly with facts.

 

[Trulybehind]

I think it would be better if we wait for another feat in later volume. Upgrade ikki to ftl with vague satement without proper fact it will be bad idea.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here?

 

[Gemmysaur]

Relativistic minimum for Ikki, FTL at most, but the feat is on a shaky observation from Stella.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. If the feat is somewhat unreliable, perhaps it would be best to first get it calculated, and then add a "Possibly" before the higher speed result?

 

[Trulybehind]

So relativistic is for ikki movement or his sword movement, because from summary above it only stated his sword moving outspeeding his shadow, not ikki movement

 

[MaBoiAcnologia]

@NotEvenHuman I never used the anime, in fact most of my main points came from chapters in the light novel which the anime hasnt shown. And Phantom Sword work by colliding spiritual energy with spiritual energy to drain stamina, at least, that is how I assumed they work, however I will not get into a debate with you where my assumption holds no ground, I will yield.

However Itto Shura must have run out, Ikki was on the verge of death, nearly losing conscious and you believe he was able to keep a form that leaves his hospitalized after its use? (Pre Desperado ofc) I mean, this is logical, you dont need a statement to know Ikki cant hold any Itto form when he on the brink of death, he cant even use it in a fight in perfect health without hesitating (shown against Byakuya, for example)

As for everything else, I wonder what I am wrong on, and would like to be corrected before I continue for arguing Ikki at FTL Oikage speeds.

 

[MaBoiAcnologia]

@Antvasima and @Gammysaur I believe he should be AT LEAST relativistic if not FTL, whilst the statement from Stella is shaky it does link to a real word phenomenon that isnt based on write trope. Furthermore, it is backed by Post Edelweiss scaling and Post Desperado power boosts. I believe that should be enough for the upgrade, however if a calc is required I wouldnt mind taking sometime to do so, especially since it is now holidays for me

 

[MaBoiAcnologia]

@trulybehind it wasnt the sword, @notevenhuman posted the writing from the instance and it was the SWINGING of his sword, not the sword itself, meaning the actual movement was FT his shadow and henceforth FTL.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, you can ask here for a calculation of the feat:

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1136153

 

[MaBoiAcnologia]

@Antvasima I believe I can appreciate the members of the calc group as much as anybody here, I would like to reduce their work load as much as I possibly can. I will probably try and create the calc myself, and have them review it, to save their time

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Siegfried10]

I know the thread is old, but shouldn't Ikki's base speed get an increase?. This is only for Post-Edelweiss (or after his fight with Yuudai), as he received a boost in speed with Edelweiss's Swordplay. It was stated that base Ikki can now fight with Ittou Shura level opponents while in base, which was proven true when he fought Fake Edelweiss, 4 Fake Ikkis (that were using Ittou Shura), and he was also able to completely blitz Yuudai Moroboshi.

 

[Antvasima]

It is better if you start a new content revision thread. None of the participants will remember this one very well at this point.

 

[Siegfried10]

I see, i will do that then.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will close this then.