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Yep.
SSSAF ikki is not low 7-C in base. And Edel Sword Style is a lot scarier than it previously was.
SSSAF ikki is not low 7-C in base. And Edel Sword Style is a lot scarier than it previously was.
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Ikki Kurogane vs Ben Tennyson
- Thread starter Greenshifter
- Start date
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- #82
Aight, does any of Ikki's other hax work via mind manipulation (besides Phantom Form)?
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Not really.
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Nah
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- #85
All right so what does Ikki do when he realizes Phantom Form doesn't do anything?
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Switch to material form and YEET.Greenshifter said:
Though the last time someone tanked his phantom form he just Desperado Haxed them all, but that's not in this key.
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- #87
Dura negging sword attack and going for the kill?
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Normal sword then kill (i mean not kill cus he doesn't kill in character but SBA says he would kill so kill it is i guess).
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- #89
Willing to kill when necessary, depends on if he thinks it's necessary or not. Doesn't normal sword fail against Whampire's dura? Anyways if Ikki is visible for all this then Ben will most likely transform into Grey Matter to dodge the sword attack. If Ikki is invisible and goes for the kill: failsafe. If he is invisible and doesn't go for the kill: probably hurts a lot then.
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Well, normally yes, which is why he'd resort to Oikage which 1 shotted Stella Vermillio when he sees strength difference.
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- #91
High 7-A Stella?
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Yep.
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But even before Oikage he can deal internal (organ damage) or even reflect Ben's attacks. I can hardly see Ikki losing this considering the skill gap.
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- #94
How good is Ikki's non-physical interaction?
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Limited to hitting magical hands, which may or may not be physical.
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- #96
Magical hands would be closer to elemental intangibility then?
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- #97
Am I allowed to make a case for Ben but not vote or is that too biased and let someone else do it?
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Nah, just that, magical hands. Nothing else.Greenshifter said:
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You can.Greenshifter said:
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- #100
Aight give me a moment then.
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- #101
So we all know Ikki has a lot of skill. But Ben is no slouch in that department either: With Diamondhead he skillstomped Vilgax who has centuries of experience. He has incredibly quick thinking/strategizing and extreme versatility (14:20) especially with Master Control (and he was only 10 at this point and only halfway through summer vacation).
He also has no reason to screw around against a guy with a sword who does organ damage and will get serious the moment he gets hit for the first time if he wasn't already (Phantom Form already gives him a good hint). He has phasing (which works against elemental attacks so Ikki shouldn't be able to counter it) and invisibility with Big Chill and Ghostfreak and can freeze people from the inside out with the former and has possession with the latter (doesn't work against brainless people so Ikki might get a pass there).
Ben can also use NRG who has a type of suit that couldn't be read by Gwen's magic and shocked her when she tried to and said suit can only be opened by Taydenite which can cut through anything within Ben 10 so it's likely Ikki can't even cut through it regularly and if he tries dura neg with magic then it could very well backfire on him. Luckily there is an opening in the suit for Ben so Ikki might be able to slice it right to open it, but then Ikki basically doomed himself since true form NRG has elemental intangibility and can passively radiate Ikki to death. Ben can also absorb magic/life-force/mana (same thing in Ben 10) with Feedback (most likely from a distance) and Chromastone and has selective Immunity to it with Terraspi which works from a very small distance.
Ben can also transform into aliens such as Goop (Goop has an anti-gravity projector that can be targeted to immobilize him however, the Omnitrix can make a new one but only when it's destroyed or by transforming into a different alien and back), Swampfire, Bloxx and Upgrade for regen and a lack of organs to counter organ damage.
Ben also has absurd stamina and willpower since he was able to take an energy attack to his brain for a minute straight and was still standing afterwards and then got tortured again and Brainstorm has few more tricks up his sleeve: He is supergenius with analytical prediction that rivals Ikki's and has a forcefield to give him time to think which is very useful in a fight against an opponent like Ikki.
Lastly Ben also has good AoE attacks with aliens such as Heatblast (he can even go supernova hot), Gravattack's gravity manipulation and eve Whampire.
He also has no reason to screw around against a guy with a sword who does organ damage and will get serious the moment he gets hit for the first time if he wasn't already (Phantom Form already gives him a good hint). He has phasing (which works against elemental attacks so Ikki shouldn't be able to counter it) and invisibility with Big Chill and Ghostfreak and can freeze people from the inside out with the former and has possession with the latter (doesn't work against brainless people so Ikki might get a pass there).
Ben can also use NRG who has a type of suit that couldn't be read by Gwen's magic and shocked her when she tried to and said suit can only be opened by Taydenite which can cut through anything within Ben 10 so it's likely Ikki can't even cut through it regularly and if he tries dura neg with magic then it could very well backfire on him. Luckily there is an opening in the suit for Ben so Ikki might be able to slice it right to open it, but then Ikki basically doomed himself since true form NRG has elemental intangibility and can passively radiate Ikki to death. Ben can also absorb magic/life-force/mana (same thing in Ben 10) with Feedback (most likely from a distance) and Chromastone and has selective Immunity to it with Terraspi which works from a very small distance.
Ben can also transform into aliens such as Goop (Goop has an anti-gravity projector that can be targeted to immobilize him however, the Omnitrix can make a new one but only when it's destroyed or by transforming into a different alien and back), Swampfire, Bloxx and Upgrade for regen and a lack of organs to counter organ damage.
Ben also has absurd stamina and willpower since he was able to take an energy attack to his brain for a minute straight and was still standing afterwards and then got tortured again and Brainstorm has few more tricks up his sleeve: He is supergenius with analytical prediction that rivals Ikki's and has a forcefield to give him time to think which is very useful in a fight against an opponent like Ikki.
Lastly Ben also has good AoE attacks with aliens such as Heatblast (he can even go supernova hot), Gravattack's gravity manipulation and eve Whampire.
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Oh and Ikki has to be careful not to do anything that could kill Ben otherwise the failsafe will activate before he is able to do it and transform him into a regenner most likely and Ikki isn't aware of this till he accidentally does it for the first time and Ben having to rely on the Omnitrix' failsafe will prompt him to be even more serious… I mean the last and only guy that managed to trigger failsafe 4 (it'll make sense in a revision or 2) got a Big Bang in his face. I will admit in the case of something turning one of his aliens to dust or getting vaporized there is a chance failsafe 3 will activate instead of 4, this means Ben will revert to human form and possibly knocked out (briefly and this did not happen in Omniverse) instead of killed.
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- #103
It's bumping time!
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He's no slouch, but compared to ikki he might as well be a baby in terms of skill.
Invisibility won't help against Ikki. As long as he's physically there ikki's senses will pick it up.
That's IF he resorts to that.
Sure, it's not like Ikki has only that.
That's not even analytical prediction, that's just awareness of his surroundings. Unless you're talking about predicting the lazer hit, but that's not even closely comparable to Ikki's worse analytical prediction feat.
Heat not gonna help vs ikki. Stella Vermillio already tried core of the sun levels of heat AoE vs him, didn't work.
And Ikki's most in character actions are in phantom form.
About omnitrix turning him to what he needs gonna need proof it will do that against an opponent they cannot perceive.
Invisibility won't help against Ikki. As long as he's physically there ikki's senses will pick it up.
That's IF he resorts to that.
Sure, it's not like Ikki has only that.
That's not even analytical prediction, that's just awareness of his surroundings. Unless you're talking about predicting the lazer hit, but that's not even closely comparable to Ikki's worse analytical prediction feat.
Heat not gonna help vs ikki. Stella Vermillio already tried core of the sun levels of heat AoE vs him, didn't work.
And Ikki's most in character actions are in phantom form.
About omnitrix turning him to what he needs gonna need proof it will do that against an opponent they cannot perceive.
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- #105
Ah come on Ben's been fighting mercenaries since he was 10, that's gotta count for something?
Invisibility + intangibility might screw him over tho cause that's basically no impact on your surrounding at all (heck the reason why Necrofriggians have intangibility is so they don't have to deal with the heat and cold of their planet the entire time, I'm not sure if this is 100% canon tho), although Kevin may have been able to still see him with Plumber tech, I'll look into that.
Ikki limits his options so that he either has to use aliens suited for extreme offense or extreme defense, there's no point in going Crashhopper against an invisible opponent, the chance of NRG being used is higher than you think, especially with Master Control and Ikki not being able to quickly finish this since he needs to basically wear Ben down.
What does he have exactly that can K.O. someone like Goop? I mean I don't even think Goop can be K.O.'ed in the first place and he also won't die because of regen (he actually has High regen, if it matters I'll give you the feat but I don't think Ikki can get past Mid-High anyways)
A supernova is 6000 times the temperature of the sun's core, but if he deflects it or something then fair enough, Ben didn't use this move since he was 10 so it's not likely to happen anyways.
Which gets resisted by all his aliens, I wouldn't have made my case for Ben if only Whampire resists.
You already know about the Omnitrix' reaction to the Big Bang, the Omnitrix can simply notice Ben being cut and the cut going for his vital spots the femtosecond that he gets cut and then transform him into another alien in another femtosecond (lowballing probably). God of Procrastination already mentioned that the Omnitrix doesn't think like a human so it should be able to perceive Ikki but I'm gonna assume this is wrong since you told me that Ikki doesn't use mind-shenanigans for his invisibility.
Invisibility + intangibility might screw him over tho cause that's basically no impact on your surrounding at all (heck the reason why Necrofriggians have intangibility is so they don't have to deal with the heat and cold of their planet the entire time, I'm not sure if this is 100% canon tho), although Kevin may have been able to still see him with Plumber tech, I'll look into that.
Ikki limits his options so that he either has to use aliens suited for extreme offense or extreme defense, there's no point in going Crashhopper against an invisible opponent, the chance of NRG being used is higher than you think, especially with Master Control and Ikki not being able to quickly finish this since he needs to basically wear Ben down.
What does he have exactly that can K.O. someone like Goop? I mean I don't even think Goop can be K.O.'ed in the first place and he also won't die because of regen (he actually has High regen, if it matters I'll give you the feat but I don't think Ikki can get past Mid-High anyways)
A supernova is 6000 times the temperature of the sun's core, but if he deflects it or something then fair enough, Ben didn't use this move since he was 10 so it's not likely to happen anyways.
Which gets resisted by all his aliens, I wouldn't have made my case for Ben if only Whampire resists.
You already know about the Omnitrix' reaction to the Big Bang, the Omnitrix can simply notice Ben being cut and the cut going for his vital spots the femtosecond that he gets cut and then transform him into another alien in another femtosecond (lowballing probably). God of Procrastination already mentioned that the Omnitrix doesn't think like a human so it should be able to perceive Ikki but I'm gonna assume this is wrong since you told me that Ikki doesn't use mind-shenanigans for his invisibility.
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Ok but Ikki's like the most skilled boi on the wiki and he has only been fighting for like 2 years. Experience doesn't mean much if you don't have the feats to back it up. You can say "my brother is really strong", sure, but doesn't mean that actually makes a difference if you pit him up against Mike Tyson.
Then his danger sense will keep him out of danger.
Fair enough on that.
Nothing to KO Goop if he has mid high.
Fair point, but the reason Ikki can deal with that, is because he just yeets through the fire fast enough and while lowering his contact with the fire, so that he doesn't get insta burned.
Oh true that forgot.
Big Bang is like light speed and speed is equal either way.
Then his danger sense will keep him out of danger.
Fair enough on that.
Nothing to KO Goop if he has mid high.
Fair point, but the reason Ikki can deal with that, is because he just yeets through the fire fast enough and while lowering his contact with the fire, so that he doesn't get insta burned.
Oh true that forgot.
Big Bang is like light speed and speed is equal either way.
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Fair enough, not a lot is known about pre-OS Vilgax except him going rogue.
He can't keep dodging forever, Ben intended to chase Kevin with intangibility + invisibility for a pretty decent car trip (going at regular car speeds I assume), Big Chill can also shoot ice beams while intangible, making the ground very slippery.
He'd still get burned more from Heatblast's fire tho and it really has huge AoE.
9.78286E+16*times the speed of light is the accepted result of the Omnitrix' failsafe, you can find the link to the calc on it's page. Yeah no the Omnitrix should keep it's speed difference with Ben otherwise it would give an inaccurate result (for instance the Ultimatrix simulates a million years of worst case scenarios in a practical instant, with speed truly equal Ben would never be able to turn ultimate since his transformations would take a million years), you got your amps, I got the Omnitrix' speedy failsafe, seems most fair and accurate that way.
He can't keep dodging forever, Ben intended to chase Kevin with intangibility + invisibility for a pretty decent car trip (going at regular car speeds I assume), Big Chill can also shoot ice beams while intangible, making the ground very slippery.
He'd still get burned more from Heatblast's fire tho and it really has huge AoE.
9.78286E+16*times the speed of light is the accepted result of the Omnitrix' failsafe, you can find the link to the calc on it's page. Yeah no the Omnitrix should keep it's speed difference with Ben otherwise it would give an inaccurate result (for instance the Ultimatrix simulates a million years of worst case scenarios in a practical instant, with speed truly equal Ben would never be able to turn ultimate since his transformations would take a million years), you got your amps, I got the Omnitrix' speedy failsafe, seems most fair and accurate that way.
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Gonna have to say he can dodge for long enough for Ben to try another strategy.
Well maybe so, but not a 1 hit, he could probably find a way around it.
Oof. Well how does omnitrix see shit?
Well maybe so, but not a 1 hit, he could probably find a way around it.
Oof. Well how does omnitrix see shit?
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@00potato TS?
Phantom Form doesn't work, search for the word Corrodium.
Phantom Form doesn't work, search for the word Corrodium.
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Ok, but if Ben doesn't want to try another strategy, eventually Ikki will slip up and lose.
I have no idea, ask Azmuth, the supergenius who created it. I guess it constantly scans the area for literally anything since it can see the Big Bang which is literally everything.
I have no idea, ask Azmuth, the supergenius who created it. I guess it constantly scans the area for literally anything since it can see the Big Bang which is literally everything.
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There was an actual joke where Kevin breached Galvan's defenses and got floored by Azmuth's pets and then Azmuth was like why didn't you call before you arrived?
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Hmm this might boil down to stamina. What's ben's best stamina feat?
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I think his best stamina feat is either getting tortured for months/weeks in that alternate timeline or Brainstorm getting shot for a minute straight. If you mean how long he can fight tho then Four Arms's species can fight for days but Ben probably won't use Four Arms here. Don't forget that Ben only needs enough stamina to get the right alien and doesn't necessarily needs to have more stamina than Ikki and if Ben needs to recover for whatever reason then he can transform into Goop and literally just lie on the floor with Ikki being able to do nothing.
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That omnitrix is a bit of a problem. Gonna say stomp for ben right now.
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That is true, but omnitrix auto changing will not let that happen.
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- #120
Taking him down for K.O. via organ damage, not killing.
