Iihiko Shishime vs Sara Bloodlily (Hopefully a fair match?)

[Agnaa]

Yeah, but characters with abilities that are too NLF are banned like Ajimu, and if that is basically the only person he can be reliably scaled from other than things that weren't stupidly bellow him, then perhaps he should be banned just by extension.

Yeah, I know. I have no issue with his physical stats obviously, that's not what's called into question.

But that is specifically contradictory to his ability, since he would almost never recognize ink manipulation. We have changed his power to completely ignore a portion of it. Sure he has to recognize it to be 100% resistant, but it's like a one in a billion chance he would recognize it anyway otherwise.

Ajimu's abilities aren't NLF, they're not described. Many characters with NLF abilities are allowed, Gagamaru Chougasaki, SCP-682, Medaka Kurokami, half of the style users.

He can be reliably scaled to Medaka, since he can damage her and be damaged by her.

You don't know that Iihiko would never recognize ink manipulation. Just as you don't know that Medaka can't activate encounter to tank 3-A infinite speed attacks. Since there's no proof, we assume it's false.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The actual reason was the lack of a defined tier. But Irrevercible Destruction does not at the very end that the ability is very hard to define by tier, wich is what's actually annoying.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

@Agnaa

You know what I meant. They are unprovable and always have a meta underlying nature to them. If you call that castrated nature of Gagamaru matches allowed, then sure. Really all that has been allowed is matches that don't push NLF on his abilities at all, at least when you put it into practice. You aren't allowed to argue it any higher with such strict rigidity not seen from anywhere else on the wiki, that any match with anything higher is banned by almost default. As for Medaka and 682. Medaka isn't NLF so much as it is unprovable to the standards of the wiki. Its wank, not that people are saying they can go that high without feats, it's that the feats themselves are contested. 682 is inherently reactionary in character, so they do not hard push on NLF.

He only scales in the regard to cases where his power is bypassed. They do not call NLF on the abilities themselves which are up for question.

Yes, I do. He was kicked in the face and didn't recognize it as an attack. Unless his opponent called attention to the blow first like Medaka did and hyped up their power, then he may recognize it, but that is still unlikely. Those 2 circumstances are a false equivalence. Him being physically effected by attacks is not up for question, its them just not properly damaging him. If we play things your way, then it changes what his abilities are. Can Khorne's blessing work on plot manip? He has never demonstrated it but people assume yes anyway

 

[Agnaa]

I'd ideally have Iihiko's matches in a similar state to Gagamaru's matches. Medaka's NLF by copying other NLF abilities, such as Gagamaru's. 682's adaption can often go into NLF territory, but it's limited by feats.

He's probably been kicked in the face in his 5000 years of life. We already know that he wouldn't recognize it a second time, so of course he wouldn't recognize it. But we have no proof that he's seen ink manipulation before and could resist it.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

No, at that point I would put him in a similar state to Ajimu. He is hyped beyond belief in the series to assume that any ability he hasn't specifically ignore and any ability that steps a line above moon level can effect him is too much against what is shown in the series. We know Ajimu isn't star level, even if that is the most casual feat in question, so to list her as that is obviously incorrect so it is not listed and banned. As for Medaka, That's not really an NLF issue. We know how they work, and unless they would be specifically beyond her capacity to learn them for some reason, then we call it into question. But otherwise, she has enough of it to work as written. For 682, we work as I mentioned above for Iihiko. He has shown the general ability to regenerate from almost anything up to a certain level, and has had a broad sample of diverse ways to kill him, so unless there is some specific reason to believe he wouldn't be able to regenerate from an ability, then it gets called into question. "He may have been able to regenerate from being erased from 89 level beyond the concept of dimensions, but has he regenerated from an ability that can prevent the Regenerationn of characters who can still regenerate from 55 layers of resistence bypassing?" Shit like that, obviously I am exaggerating

One of the main point of Iihiko's character is that he looks for something "Fresh." He has experience almost everything under the sun. He is looking for something new. Someone can pump blood through their whole body? I've fought I giant heart before, so that's boring. Also, don't forget that things like punches and kicks in general don't resisted, but specific techniques with punches are. But besides, just because he hasn't specifically resisted it, doesn't mean his is gonna automatically recognize it. He is incredibly oblivious, he is more likely to just see it has ink therapy or something

 

[Agnaa]

There's still issues with Ajimu's feat, with it being a recording played back at a later date in a dream world. I don't think she even has actual AP feats lower than that. The problem is she doesn't have conclusive feats, so we can't give her a conclusive tier.

682 is assumed to be able to regenerate from physical damage because that's how Regenerationn works in general. I'm specifically talking about his adaptation and how NLF that can be at times, and how we treat it in a way limited by feats (i.e. we don't assume he can adapt above 3-A).

Sometimes characters in media were obviously intended to be more powerful than their feats actually suggest. If you're having a conversation about what he should be able to resist by author intention, I agree that he should resist ink manipulation. However, he hasn't shown resistance to it, so we can't say he will. I've had to put some characters at 9-A based on feats when they were obviously intended to be able to destroy towns, but they never showed feats on that level.

I took those statements of seeing electricity manipulation as therapy, etc, as meaning that he'd already experienced those things so he no longer recognized them as attacks.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

If that was the only issue, we could build a case that the feat is valid. We both know that Ant does not have that as the only issue, and when you look at the times Ajimu has been tried to be upgraded in almost any way that has not been the only issue. Everything about her has a meta undertone to such a degree that it cannot be taken without that into an account. She is not a feat based character, nor is she meant to be. She is tantamount to Billy the God-Boy, where there is no point to display every one of her abilities. I could build an argument to give Billy The God-boy a tier by scaling him to other Gods from the dreaming, but to do so undercuts him. To give him a tier defeats the point, and neither are served by the context of this wiki. If we want to represent their power, that is not how it is done.

Are you talking about extended canon or something else? I heavily disagree with that limitation since I am pretty sure he has feats far above that anyway but that's another issue.

That is not what I am arguing. I am arguing that by the nature of his powers, to claim that he will only resist what he has already perceived is not his power. Yhwach and Kharn are not expected to only have their abilities work on things they have demonstrated, so we should hold Iihiko to no higher standard, and to do so is inconsistent. Unless the attack for some reason is more recognizable than a kick to the face, then maybe it can effect him, but other than that, he probably won't be recognized.

Oh, he probably has. Not sure if he has seen a perfect emitor tho, and I'm also not sure if he has seen someone who attacks specifically based off of murderous intent. Either way, his explination was not that they weren't fresh, as he would usually do, it was that he saw it as therapy.

 

[Agnaa]

The meta stuff is more in relation to why the stuff like "Control infinity skill", "Become god skill", and "Create a universe skill" that are never demonstrated or described in more detail aren't used. It's unsure how seriously those things should be taken, especially since they're never shown. From what I've heard in Ant's posts, a large part of the problem is that she has no actual feats, just walls of text

Extended canon has the 3-A limitation, profile canon 682's limit for adaptation is way lower. He doesn't have feats of adapting above 3-A, but as you can tell from us disagreeing on this, it's ripe with NLF possibilities, yet 682's allowed in fights.

I'm not sure exactly what the situations for Yhwach and Kharn are, but generally abilities are allowed to work on things they haven't demonstrated if they have a restricted category that they work under. Such as being immune to "All supernatural powers". That's assumed to work on supernatural powers it's never demonstrated working on, as they fall under an explicit category. However an ability such as "Immune to all powers" has to go by feats, otherwise they'd be impossible to defeat without higher-D power. Iihiko's power of "Immune to any attack he doesn't recognize" falls under the latter, as taking it that way would make him unbeatable within 3 dimension. However, his power of "Immune to any attack he's already seen, as he no longer recognizes it as an attack" isn't, as he can still be taken out in one shot.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

No, it is not simply about accepting the abilities. From the fact that they were later listed in, from what i understand, is a medaka box guide book, they aren't just flavor text and some of them are listed to have specific intention behind them. Such as some being a more limited version of another, or some being particularly cruel. They are demonstrated, just not on screen. If it were just about ambiguity, then creating a universe would at the very least be either 3-A to Low 2-C (based on what kanji is used), and would be low balled to be over time. Can she create a universe? Yes. Can she use it in at least the time frame of less than a day? Yes. Therefore, it either has other uses beyond just creating a universe, or she can create a universe in a short time frame. To low ball, you would choose the previous option. Therefore, she would be 3-A or Low 2-C over time. But the point is, to do so is to undercut the kind of character she is supposed to be.

His curse has backing from 1-B to 1-A beings, and I will need to look into it more but I am fairly sure he has come back from higher shit before. The issue here is more a contention of feats then of NLF.

Neither of those are limited that way lol, and neither of those have a set limitation either. Iihiko already has "All Skills" under his category of things he does not recognize, just by default even if he hasn't already encountered it. What are counted as skills? Basically every convensional power within the context of Medaka Box. Not even the limitation that was originally put in of them being personality based is true. Stat amps? Skill. Elemental Manipulation? Skill. Damage Reflection or restoration? Skill. Time Manipulation? Skill. Sensory Manipulation? Skill. Protectile catching? Skill. Omniscience? Skill. Counting really good? Skill. Skills are literally just a catch all term for super powers, and anything that isn't just raw ******* stats that don't come from amps. Of the "limited catagories" that you mentioned, that isn't the case as people like Kharn or Yhwach prove, just because we know the metric. Kharn bans things that "aren't fair." Iihiko bans things that he does not recognze. If something is less recognizable than a kick to a face, then feat wise we already know that he won't recognize it on any consistent basis.

 

[Agnaa]

If those are legit why aren't we using them? If we're just banning metafictional/parody characters then a lot of pages are gonna have to be deleted or set to Unknown. From what I've heard it's an issue with how seriously to take these things as having happened or being possible. Also, why are you assuming a time frame of less than a day for the create a universe skill?

682's immortality curse has backing of 1-Bs, the adaptation/Regenerationn is an intrinsic thing to leviathans. And I'm relatively knowledgeable on this, he hasn't come back from higher shit and he ESPECIALLY hasn't adapted to have higher AP than 3-A.

I'm not sure how to handle it then since I know nothing about Warhammer. But whatever the final decision is, it shouldn't be made by just you and I talking to each other. Perhaps the actual distinction is for anything that gives characters invulnerability, and those types of abilities need some sort of limited category or else they'd go by feats. I have no clue.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Part of the reason is because they do not want to set a precident. Medaka Box is a statement based verse for the large part, and even tho it is supported, they don't want other verses doing similar stuff and getting approved. There was originally a question of them happening, but the fact that they are listed in a guide should clear that up at this point. The reason is because the first part of the jet black weddding took less than a day, so even at the absolute low ball you can still say the time to use the skill is less than a day

I figured that they came from the same thing, but if that is true then i guess so. If he has type 8 on higher beings then the type 8 scales to those beings, as that is how type 8 works. But if they come from different things then i guess it can be of a lower tier. Also, for this topic, if I wanted to contest it, I would bring up the laptop, which you should probably look into when discussing time 682 probably hasn't survived the destruction of a universe.

I was working off of precidence, which my interpretation more aligns with. But modifying the characters power is just wrong, can we at least agree on that front?

 

[Agnaa]

The reason is because the first part of the jet black weddding took less than a day, so even at the absolute low ball you can still say the time to use the skill is less than a day

Why do we think that Ajimu created a universe during the first part of the jet black wedding? If this isn't what happened, what does the jet black wedding have to do with the create a universe skill?

I was working off of the precedent I've seen, but maybe we've just been looking at different characters that have just been treated differently. What do you mean by "modifying the character's power"?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

She used a skill that creates a universe, during the openning moments of the jet black wedding feats. Hence, she created a universe, or used it for some other purpose. The openning moments of the jet black wedding feast is when she unleashed those several hundred skills, where we know most of her powers are from.

That may be the case. I mean, changing a character's power for the sake of rules

 

[Agnaa]

Oh right, but why does that necessarily mean that the universe's creation was finished before the end of the first part of the wedding?

I'd disagree with changing a character's power for the sake of rules, but we may not mean the same thing when we say that.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

If the universe was continuing after the first usage, then the activation would have to be at least less then a day.

I see. At least we have some common ground

 

[Agnaa]

If the universe was continuing after the first usage, then the activation would have to be at least less then a day.

I don't know what you mean by this.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

If the universe wasn't finished after the intial usage, then it took longer to fully form. We know that at the very least the activation if absolutely low balled still takes less than a day

 

[Agnaa]

If the universe wasn't finished after the intial usage, then it took longer to fully form. We know that at the very least the activation if absolutely low balled still takes less than a day

How does anything here prevent the universe from taking 1,000,000 years to form, and she simply started the process in one instant? Why must it fully complete within one day? Hell, what if she's actually been activating the "create a universe" skill her entire lifespan, and only on that day was it finally finished activating?

I don't see anything supporting a 1 day limit.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I never claimed it did. If the universe is taking longer than a day to form, then its activation must be shorter than a day at the very least. Never claimed it must be. If activating it takes longer than a day, then the process continues without her prolonged attention, since she did not have her focussed attention on it for more than a day. If it did not complete in that one fight, then she was using it for another purpose. How do I know she wasn't charging up that skill for so long? Well she was sealed for one.

One day activation limit, since she wasn't doing it for anything longer than a day

 

[Agnaa]

Okay, how do you know she didn't have her focused attention on it for more than a day?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

For it to be usable/useful, there must be some focused aspect on her part within the corporeal universe, and within the range of the fight. We can see that Ajimu was done using her skills by the end of the fight, therefore less than a day. Perhaps she could have dumped the universe somewhere along the 5th axis or just gotten rid of it, but that part is up in the air.

 

[Mr._Common_Sense]

@Agnaa

You can't forget that this is also how this wiki's formats works. Scaling is always accepted over statements when it comes to this wiki's rules. This is why so many characters on this site have many tier upgrades because of scaling even if they never showed a single feat on that level.

However, some favorite series like Dragon Ball get major passes from statements alone without any feats. There are many biases over some series on this wiki.

Also, to end my derailing my vote goes to Iihiko FRA if this isn't a stomp.

And P.S. Earl it is good to have you back on Medaka Box topics. I forgot your banned officially lifted in April.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

And P.S. Earl it is good to have you back on Medaka Box topics. I forgot your banned officially lifted in April.

Glad to be back

 

[Agnaa]

For it to be usable/useful, there must be some focused aspect on her part within the corporeal universe, and within the range of the fight. We can see that Ajimu was done using her skills by the end of the fight, therefore less than a day. Perhaps she could have dumped the universe somewhere along the 5th axis or just gotten rid of it, but that part is up in the air.

Sure, but she could have been preparing the activation ever since she got un-sealed, no?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Unlikely, Ajimu is not that kind of strategic character, plus the fact that her biggest pain was everything being far too easy for her no matter what she did or what handicaps she took or how careless she was. Her having to start from the moment she was unsealed would imply she would need to try and use effort, which has never been a thing for her except for Iihiko.