Ichigo Kurosaki's Lifting strength

[Nisemono96]

I was wondering about Ichigo's Lifting Strength, it is placed as at least Class K,

"Class K: 10^5 to 10^6 kg (The mass of the largest animal: blue whale, the heaviest of air-crafts)"

I was wondering since Ichigo is predominantly a more physical combatant (whenever he isn't Getsublasting that is) that since his current Striking Strength is Class ZJ,

"Class ZJ: Zettajoule class (Attacks carry the energy of teratons of TNT explosives. Physical Strikes are Small Country level to Large Country level.)"

And his current Attack Potency is at least Small Country Level+ based on,

"(Was stated to have reclaimed the power he used to defeat Aizen by Yhwach and physically held back Yhwach who had his Almighty activated. Also knocked back Yhwach with a Getsuga Tensho)"

The important bit is the physically holding back Yhwach who had at that time , "Lifting Strength: Likely Class T (Meninas lifted a large building and threw it with one hand, so Yhwach should have a strength in the billions of tons) Striking Strength: At least Class EJ+, likely higher " If Yhwach's physical strength was collectively that great, and since both Lifting Strength and Striking Strength are generally dependent on one another to varying extents.Yhwach himself is powerscaled from Meninas Lifting Strength Stat, and since Ichigo has already been upgraded on account of holding back Yhwach physically and also based on Yhwach's claims on his strength and the casual relation between Striking and Lifting Strength Stats would it be reasonable to powerscale Ichigo's own Lifting Strength from Meninas to Yhwach as well? He should at the very least be comparable right? What do you all think?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if he held back Yhwach, and Yhwach is that strong, an upgrade seems to be in order.

 

[LordAizenSama]

I don't know if he physically held back Yhwach, or he simply just stopped him from moving by grabbing his arm, but by the conditions of Yhwach's ability he should of foreseen it. But I guess it could be argued for a upgrade, i'm neutral on it

However, I just remembered reading that small country level mentions ichigo being as powerful as he was when he fought Aizen (Which means he is scaleable to any non trancendent Shinigami feat), but that is not the Case. Ichigo never regained his trancendent level power that defeated Aizen, if he did he would of completely curbstomped everyone in the war, and would have no need of any allies at all. I don't know where that puts ichigo at if you take that away from him..

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

I dont think we should upgrade lifting strength based on just this, it's not a really solid lifting feat tbh

 

[LordAizenSama]

now that I think about it so more.. wouldn't it Mean Dangai Ichigo scales to Post-Almighty Yhwachs speed? as he blocked mimihagi with no influence from his power, and shouldn't be trancendent, So Dangai Ichigo should be scaleable right?

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

now that I think about it so more.. wouldn't it Mean Dangai Ichigo scales to Post-Almighty Yhwachs speed? as he blocked mimihagi with no influence from his power, and shouldn't be trancendent, So Dangai Ichigo should be scaleable right?

Are trancendent characters really scalable from each other? Was anything said about them so that we could compare or relate them to each other?

 

[LordAizenSama]

no not really, theres only been 2 "trancendent" characters in the show (soulking yhwach is totally unknown at this point, so i'm not including him)but they should scale to anyone who is below them in Reiatsu. Also I don't think the Almighty Yhwach is trancendent,either.

Now that I think about this even more, This could also scale to current Aizen who got stronger then he was during his fight with ichigo, as he was also a trancendent..

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

I dont want to say much regarding this matter lol. Ichigo got owned by askin was bad enough, scaling him might cause complaints

 

[LordAizenSama]

you got the forms mixed up Faisal XD im saying Current ichigo (the one askin owned) is not as powerful as his Dangai version, and that should be scrapped from his profile. However his Dangai form should scale to post almighty yhwach fine

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

you got the forms mixed up Faisal XD im saying Current ichigo (the one askin owned) is not as powerful as his Dangai version, and that should be scrapped from his profile. However his Dangai form should scale to post almighty yhwach fine

lol Im actually talking about the lifting strength.

 

[LordAizenSama]

ooooooooooooooooh. okay on two different pages, nevermind.

 

[Non-Bias]

Hmmm......


According to the manga, there's enough evidence that suggests Yhwach isn't the person who gives the Sternritter abilities (Askin literally said that Yhwach took him in because of his ability which means Yhwach didn't give it to him) therefore it's questionable why he's apparently being powerscaled to Meninas when:

1) He has never been shown to be the physically overpowering person.

2) Inflating the stat based on nothing. "Likely Class T (Meninas lifted a large building and threw it with one hand, so Yhwach should have a strength in the billions of tons)". That's just an assumption if you ask me.

This leads me to Ichigo. Yhwach claimed Ichigo's reclaimed the power used to beat Aizen which is false given the fact Ichigo's energy can still be felt clearly by his friends and enemies.

Basically there's no proof Yhwach is that strong so it's not very impressive that Ichigo physically held him back. Furthermore, given that Yhwach had his Almighty activated, it would have been virtually impossible for Ichigo to catch him off guard and actually hold him back. Yhwach was trying to make Ichigo see his point of view and simply didn't care to stop him.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, at the very least Yhwach absorbs the souls and powers of all dead Quincy, so I find it very hard to believe that all of their strengths combined wouldn't measure up to Meninas alone.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

I'll support this

 

[Non-Bias]

Well, at the very least Yhwach absorbs the souls and powers of all dead Quincy, so I find it very hard to believe that all of their strengths combined wouldn't measure up to Meninas alone.

Yhwach said that he absords the souls of the fallen Quincy and gets stronger so I believe that he could be as strong as Meninas, just not a billions times stronger. It's about the way some things are worded makes things hard to believe.

 

[Antvasima]

Is it really stated that he is a billion times stronger than Meninas?

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

You should probably ask Illuminati about this, seeing as he's the most knowledgeable person on Bleach in this Wiki

 

[Nisemono96]

The qualifiers for sensing Transcendant strength means you have to be approaching that level of power, not necessarily being Transcendant yourself. Ichigo alone in Fake Karakura could sense Aizen's power, which is marked by the fact that Ichigo has immense reiatsu where during the context of the war even when was at around half his reserves his power still matches most Captain Class Shinigami, which was noted by Unohana before she then helped restore him to the peak of his strength.

Aizen could and did purposley lower his reiatsu so it could be percieved by others, which was evident when he tormenting Ichigo's weaker mundane friends, who all to various extents could feel his overwhelming power, which should be impossible right? How can they sense what Shinigami who are far superior to such weak humans, can't? The answer is Aizen lowered his power to their perception.

Regardless of how you approach it stat-wise for this site, the generall consensus is that all Shinigami are stronger then they were 17 months before, however unquantifiable that increase might be. And when Ichigo finished his training in the Royal Realm he was noted by Kirio Hikifune to have finally gained control of his fomerly fluctuating strength, and that control is something he has not had through out the majority of the series.

As for whether or not he is at that Transcendant level of strength, that really isn't for the fans or opponents to decide is it? It is essentially word of god, ironically from Yhwach's mouth and he isn't the kind of person to spout such pointless lies. So even if Ichigo has regained that strength, everyone in the Royal Realm is at least at a level of power that is by some measure greater than the players of the Winter War, and taking into consideration Ichigo new found control over his massive power who is to say?

I mean comments on Aizen's supposed strength are taken seriously, and he has uprgraded despite the fact that througout this entire arc he has been tied to a chair and his total feats are,

- Destroying fingers.

- Killing a sea of very weak heartless with a Kido Ichigo once destroyed with a backhand slap.

- And futily trying to bring the Soul Palace down with his reiatsu, which he didn't actually do becuase the chair pwned him.

As for Askin, him pwning Ichigo is no surprise to me as his power had already been shown capable of taking out people who had far outclassed him in strength, his power ignores strength and durability and affects things people can't normally or at least easily defend. Like their blood, when he nearly killed Nimaiya who had just killed all of Askin's peers, or the very material that makes up their bodies and environment,

"Gift Bad (German for "Poison Bath", Japanese for "Poison Pool"): Askin creates a darkened area of influence the size of a large circle on the ground; if anyone steps within its radius, Askin can lower their resistance to anything, such as Reishi, causing them to become "poisoned" by high amounts of that substance."

Everyone in the Royal Realm, actually anyone in a spiritual Realm is currently made up of Reishi even if they are normally made of physical matter like Ichigo's friends, Chad and Orihime, for them to be in a spiritual realm they must be converted into Reishi. Here Askin had lowered eveyones restistance/tolerance toward reishi which basically means that more then the reishi in the environment is against them but also the reishi that makes up their bodies.

Not exactly something brute force can overcome.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

You should probably ask Illuminati about this, seeing as he's the most knowledgeable person on Bleach in this Wiki

Ziel could also be asked on this too, Pietro. He seems to be about as knowlegable on Bleach too.

 

[Antvasima]

All right. I will ask SDZ and Illuminati.

 

[Illuminati478]

Yhwach has his lifting stat from being powerscalable to meninas in lifting strength, as he is stronger then her in any conceivable way, ichigo does not enjoy the same privlege and as such doesnot have that stat, as for him tangaling with Yhwach, those kind of scuffels at most equalize DC and speed, but not lifting strength...

 

[Nisemono96]

But with relation of Striking Strength and Lifting Strength how does he go from at least a Class K for Lifting Strength to Class ZJ for Striking Strength? There is something of a disparity there. It isn't even like there are great many factors for it, Ichigo is primarily a physical combatant sans the use of the Getsuga Tenshou.

Yes Striking Strength is that power in motion but Lifting Strength is all about exerting force equal to or greater than what is attempting to be lifted for it to count as a feat and when it comes to a clash of strength against strength the same rules apply because in general the people throwing around this strength don't weigh as much as they can lift so they are trying overpower the other with that strength that can lift say, mountains. If both are equal or approaching equal levels of strength it would be difficult to advance because their respective strengths are balancing out.

Ichigo grabbed Yhwach's arm with enough force to draw blood and prevent his advance, for someone (Yhwach) with Class T Lifting Strength to Ichigo's measly Class K LS something like that shouldn't happen, that amount amount of strength isn't solely applicable to merely lifting crap, strength doesn't work like that so whatever Yhwach can lift he has to be able exert enough force to carry that weight, and Ichigo is no where near that weight let alone greater than it so the only other option is that Ichigo can apply a similar level of force, enough to halt a juggernaught of strength like Yhwach who by this standard possesses the greatest physical strength of all Bleach characters with only a few others on that level (Ichibei, Yammy).

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Well, I guess most agree it's not a lifting strength feat

 

[Antvasima]

@Nisemono96 The problem is that lots of fiction make a massive difference between lifting and striking strength.

 

[Nisemono96]

I suppose that is right for fiction, though I thought since this wiki tries to apply real world science to fiction for the purpose of putting it into persepective, mostly for Versus reasons, that such a distinction wouldn't hold so much wieght since both the descriptions for Lifting Strength and Striking Strength even acknowledge of a measure of dependency upon one or another.

But I put it out there and if this is this verdict, then that is fine.

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

Hmmmm... Well this is certainly interesting. Logically speaking Ichigo's lifting strength could be higher based on what has already been said above but this is fiction and raising the lifting strength of a character with basis that his striking strength is at a certain level is not something I'm fond of...

Fiction tends to be inconsistent sometimes and while it's true that we use real world science or logic here we can't do so in certain cases. When and where we apply real world logic and science varies quite a bit between different people...

For example if we always applied real world logic to fiction then most fictional characters wouldn't be above Supersonic because there usually isn't a sonic boom shown to confirm when a character performs a speed feat that exceeds the speed of sound even if the calc for said feat results in say Hypersonic+...

But again when and where real world logic and science should be used in fiction varies between people but for me I can't really accept this upgrade mostly due to the lack of definite lifting feats...

 

[Nisemono96]

I guess that is true enough though Yhwach hasn't ever exactly lifted anythin in the manga that warrants a class T, but he got the stat via powerscaling to someone weaker than him. Really only through powerscaling, no feats what so ever.

Ichigo pwned all 4 remaining Femritters in an instant by throwing them all into building before they could even react. He got punched in the head by Meninas through a few buildings, and punch from her temporarily paralyzed a wounded Kenpachi who is a well known glutton for punishment, but Ichigo just got right back up and kept heading towards Yhwach.

It took 8 Sternritter in Vollstandig to waylay him and if he wasn't so focused on merely getting to Yhwach he could of probably defeated the lot of them.

Ichigo is much stronger than any one of those Quincy that tried to stop him, and like against the Femritters he could even play around with at least four Sternritter.

I get that without Feats Ichigo can't be powerscaled to Yhwach's level of strength but what about the capabilities of Sternritter Ichigo outclasses?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if Ichigo was shown as more powerful than Meninas, it might be possible to scale him to her. What do you think SDZ and Illuminati?

 

[Aparajita]

Well, if Ichigo was shown as more powerful than Meninas, it might be possible to scale him to her. What do you think SDZ and Illuminati?

Isn't that how scaling works? If it does, then it'll certainly work for this.

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

Scaling Ichigo to Mininas well that might be possible... if there were sufficient feats. Mininas knocked Ichigo down and he instantly got back up. Using this as a basis would mean that we're rating the Lifting strength of someone based on the level of their striking strength...

And I'm sure Antvasima has already said that fiction tends to make a large difference when it comes to Striking Strength and Lifting Strength...

So I'm still not comfortable with it... but logically it should be ok...

Let's wait for Illuminati's input on this. If he says it's aright then I'm ok with it....

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I do not remember the fight well, so I am trusting your judgement regarding this matter.

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

Well as of now I can't really say I agree with scaling Ichigo to Mininas at least in lifting strength...

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Illuminati478]

i explicitly do not agree to scale ichigo to Minias, Yhwach could have been scaled for obvious reasons, ichigo only faught here and defeated here, but he hasn't shown any signs of being superior to here in every way like Yhwach is suggested to be..., also on that note, in my opinion Aizen should also be powerscaled to her, being a trancendent being and all...

 

[Antvasima]

Is Aizen still transcendent though? I thought that he lost the power and simply kept his immortality?

 

[Nisemono96]

Have you taken a recent look at their Profiles? None of the Femritter really come to close to being his equal, all his stats besides his lifting strength are a good deal or even significantly higher than any one of the Femritter (Meninas has the sole higher stat and that is ONLY in Lifting) or even Bazz-B for the most part. Ichigo has in the manga put an almost lazy beat down on the Fenritter, he barely even tried, and he was called out on not taking it seriously. A single Getsuga Jüjishō easily passed through Candice's strongest attack while she had Vollstanding active, claimed and utterly destroyed one of her arms all in a state of Shikai. He wasn't tired from the attack at all, if he got serious threw a few more of those around he'd of killed each of Femritter by utterly destroying their bodies.

It took 8 Sternritter in Vollstandig to waylay a Shikai wielding Ichigo and they barely laid a hand one him, as he evaded all their attacks even a surprise attack from behind in the form of a point blank headshot courtesy of Robert who was a skilled enough opponent to take one one Shunsui's eyes during the course of their battle. The one hit he took prior to this was from Meninas and that was to the head and cause him to go through several buildings, he acted like it never happened.

In almost an instant Ichigo had thrown all the Femritter into separate buildings, with enough force even break one of their necks (Gisselle). His speed completely bypassed their perceptions and none of them can really lay a hand on him and when they do make contact he suffered no damage.

How is Ichigo doesn't outclass them?

Hell as it is before Yhwach absorbed the Soul King, Ichigo's Striking Strength was a whole Class higher, ZJ to Yhwach EJ.

Aizen is bound to a chair and can't do squat. Seriously I find hilarious he is being powerscaled by anyone, since and I will restate his feats again, - Destroying fingers. - Killing a sea of very weak heartless with a Kido Ichigo once destroyed with a backhand slap. - And futily trying to bring the Soul Palace down with his reiatsu, which he didn't actually do becuase the chair pwned him. - And Shunsui claiming that he was even stronger than he was before. The funny thing is that he never saw Aizen at his strongest and this is just a claim really. Certainly Aizen possesses some measure of his old Transcendent strength but even then he can't really do anything with it but flex Reiatsu that Shunsui and other Shinigami CAN sense. Ichigo was said to have gained the strength he used to defeat Aizen yet I don't see anyone jumping to award him with powerscaled upgrades, despite the fact that Yhwach can see the Past, Present and Future of anything he sees and has immediately complete understanding of and really no reason whatsoever to lie...

 

[Illuminati478]

Is Aizen still transcendent though? I thought that he lost the power and simply kept his immortality?

yep, both via feats and how the other character treat him he still is, he was also said to be stronger now then he ever was...

 

[Nisemono96]

Funny same was said about Ichigo...

 

[Illuminati478]

Aizen has feats to back it up....

 

[Nisemono96]

Really? Beyond destroying fingers, and killing a bunch of weak little shadow monsters with an oversized Kurohitsugi, what other feats are there? Surely not his claims of shooting down the Soul Palace because he never did that, since his bondage chair prevented that so that is an aborted feat at best.

He is bound to a chair, what feat of Lifting Strength has he actually done? Who has he fought? Where are the feats? List them if I missed any, I really wanna see this powerscaling of yours in action.