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I think Jiren is missing a couple resistances.
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If you are going to say that their hax is unable to affect people much stronger... then it's not hax.
If literally anyone can resist the stuff through raw power, why wouldn't someone from another verse do the same?
If literally anyone can resist the stuff through raw power, why wouldn't someone from another verse do the same?
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Because Verse Equalization doesn't work like that? We don't just hand out resistances or abilities just because two things are equalized (Goku wouldn't be able to randomly strike Chakra Points for instance).Ricsi-viragosi said:
Basically, logical deductions in-verse is okay
Handing out new resistances and powers is not okay
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Yes... and I am saying that the only "hax" used in DB is not hax if AP automatically nullifies it.
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You don't assume that out of nowhere.Akreious said:
You can't prove it's Ki giving the resistance, which is the problem here. Hell, I doubt even androids without natural Ki would be affected by the haxes much weaker people resist.
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Ki is directly proportional to AP; The more AP someone has, the more Ki they have. When someone Is talking about sheer power in Dragon Ball, they're talking about Ki. AP is just a product of Ki.
It would be your job to prove that even though every other scenario, they're referring to Ki, but in this they're suddenly only specifying the Attack Strength of someone and nothing else.
It would be your job to prove that even though every other scenario, they're referring to Ki, but in this they're suddenly only specifying the Attack Strength of someone and nothing else.
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That does zero at proving that Ki grants resistance. I'm also pretty sure androids don't have Ki coursing through them naturally and all that, but that doesn't matter.Akreious said:
You are claiming that Ki grants resistances without proof. Burden of proof is on you, because your claim is the positive. Dragon Ball not once revolves around Ki allowing someone to resist stuff, beyond god ki letting people slap normal ki away with ease.
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The abilities being resisted are still hax. They still achieve the same effect it's just how dragon ball works in it's resistances. Time stop will still be time stop even if Goku resists it by being 10x stronger. The same for mind manipulation, transmutation and existence erasure. The proof is the fact they are resisting it in the first place.
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No, hax is only a thing if it can completely disregard AP and dura. That is not true here.
If it can be resisted by being ten times stronger by anyone, then anyone stronger will resist it, even if from other verses.
If it can be resisted by being ten times stronger by anyone, then anyone stronger will resist it, even if from other verses.
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Hax is an ability that allows you to disregard raw power. Weather you can hit with the power of a nuke or that of an ant, hax will **** you up all the same.DTG499 said:
Here, the abilities won't **** you up all the same. Someone stronger will just not be affected by them.
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It's time manipulation with the weakness of not affecting people much stronger.DTG499 said:
Hax is something that completely disregards raw power. If an ability doesn't disregard it, that's not hax.
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You don't put "hax" on a profile at all. Hax is only a description used outside of profiles.DTG499 said:
You put "Weaknesses: Time Stop cannot affect people much more powerful than he himself is."
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Still hax and we can't just hand out the way dragon ball runs their power scaling to everyone on the wiki. Unless the person uses the same type of Ki. We do have point of the abilities properly ignore dura and AP as well. Babidi taking control of Dabura, Beerus erasing a ghost and Champa wasn't able to see hit do his time skip.
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That's baseless. There is zero proof Ki has anything to do with powers not working here.DTG499 said:
If the abilities only "ignore" the durability of those not much more powerfull than that is a weakness to them. The ghost Beerus erased was a regular human, Babidi's mind manipulation ended up not controlling Vegeta because he was beyond it's scope in power, and unless you want to say Goku was stronger than Champa at that point I don't see what you want to say with that.
The fact remains. If you want to scale resistances due to stronger people not being affected, then it's the abilities that fail to work on stronger people, not everyone gaining resistance from nowhere. There is no proof that ties resistances to Ki, either, so that is out of the window.
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It's a regular human that had intangability that was my point, you need hax to destory something like that. Right his mind manip didn't work becuase that is the Ki threshold needed to resist it. No I'm saying there is an point right there of hax not working on someone stronger.
I'm just saying people who use Ki amps can resist it.
Its from the fact they are resisting it in the first place. Everything ties Ki to resistances the whole series has a track record of resisting hax through increasing Ki.
I'm just saying people who use Ki amps can resist it.
Its from the fact they are resisting it in the first place. Everything ties Ki to resistances the whole series has a track record of resisting hax through increasing Ki.
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It's a regular human that had intangability that was my point, you need hax to destory something like that.
No, Non-Physical Interaction isn't a hax in any way and it's more than enough to kill a ghost.
Right his mind manip didn't work becuase that is the Ki threshold needed to resist it. No I'm saying there is an point right there of hax not working on someone stronger.
I'm just saying people who use Ki amps can resist it.
Prove it. Prove that Ki had anything to do with that.
Its from the fact they are resisting it in the first place. Everything ties Ki to resistances the whole series has a track record of resisting hax through increasing Ki.
Well, excuse the language, but I will have to call bullshit. I've watched everything up to Buu, and my memory does not bring memories of any time when Ki equating to resistance was ever claimed in the show. But by all means, bring scans to prove that.
No, Non-Physical Interaction isn't a hax in any way and it's more than enough to kill a ghost.
Right his mind manip didn't work becuase that is the Ki threshold needed to resist it. No I'm saying there is an point right there of hax not working on someone stronger.
I'm just saying people who use Ki amps can resist it.
Prove it. Prove that Ki had anything to do with that.
Its from the fact they are resisting it in the first place. Everything ties Ki to resistances the whole series has a track record of resisting hax through increasing Ki.
Well, excuse the language, but I will have to call bullshit. I've watched everything up to Buu, and my memory does not bring memories of any time when Ki equating to resistance was ever claimed in the show. But by all means, bring scans to prove that.
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Non-physical interaction is not hax, it has nothing to do with ignoring durability.
Burden of proof dude. You make the calim that Ki grants resistance, I say it's bullshit. At that point, either we assume I'm (the negative claim) right or you (the positive claim) provide proof.
Which means you can't assume Ki is letting them resist that shit, which means no resistances, just weaknesses for the so called haxes.
Burden of proof dude. You make the calim that Ki grants resistance, I say it's bullshit. At that point, either we assume I'm (the negative claim) right or you (the positive claim) provide proof.
Which means you can't assume Ki is letting them resist that shit, which means no resistances, just weaknesses for the so called haxes.
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You know we can give Jiren those resistances or we do could something about Babidi's mind hax itself. I am sure you would dislike the second option but it looks to be the safer way to solve this but I guess that would be just as unfair as giving unjustified resistances. Hax resistance scaling is not going to be applied unless it is specifically displayed.
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Remember we are the ones piecing together how this series works. It could go to either your point or mine, but at the end of the day the resistance of time being frozen is occuring from the Ki increasing, thats all you need.
Positive or negative claims are subjective to the stance of the person.
Either way dragon ball is getting special treatment.
Positive or negative claims are subjective to the stance of the person.
Either way dragon ball is getting special treatment.
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Burden of proof still applied dude. When something can't be objectively proven, the negative holds up and the positive doesn't.
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I feel like this 'resistance to hax via higher ki/AP' stuff needs to be a discussion rule. I've seen it being brought up so many times.
Jiren can beat Belmod via AP and speed, there's no reason for him to get any of these resistances when it hasn't been shown.
"Everyone keeps saying the same thing it's not a level of resistance it's the weakness of the ability, I say what is the difference?"
The difference is that against any conventional hax (ones that don't care about AP), Jiren's resistances would be completely irrelevant.
Jiren can beat Belmod via AP and speed, there's no reason for him to get any of these resistances when it hasn't been shown.
"Everyone keeps saying the same thing it's not a level of resistance it's the weakness of the ability, I say what is the difference?"
The difference is that against any conventional hax (ones that don't care about AP), Jiren's resistances would be completely irrelevant.
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Belmold has the abilty to wrap hakia arounnd his body, that is what is listed on his profile. If he uses that jiren won't be able to do anything to him, regardless of speed and AP advantage. Either take off the ability or give jiren the resistance.
All I'm saying that the resistances garner listing for the very low level mind manip babidi has
All I'm saying that the resistances garner listing for the very low level mind manip babidi has
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Yeah but he's never done it before. And again, Jiren could theoretically defeat him before Belmod has the chance.
Is there even a statement that said Belmod can't beat Jiren? I only remember ones saying he's stronger than Belmod, and the strongest enemy Goku's faced, etc.
Is there even a statement that said Belmod can't beat Jiren? I only remember ones saying he's stronger than Belmod, and the strongest enemy Goku's faced, etc.
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Whis states that there exists a mortal even a GoD can't beat. Said mortal is Jiren. Personally, I feel that Whis would have factored in Hakai when making that statement so him having possible resistance to EE wouldn't be too far-fetched. But I agree that other "hax" from weaker characters shouldn't be used to justify resistances at all.GyroNutz said:
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